Re: A HOW TO Lesson ~

[Guest guest]

LOVE THIS ADVICE. IT IS A HARD HABIT TO BREAK WHEN YOU HAVE BEEN SUCKED INTO IT

FOR SO MANY YEARS. MY NADA HAS BEEN ACTING NORMAL FOR OVER A WEEK NOW

(SCAREY!!!!). I THINK SHE FINALLY FOUND A FRIEND HER OWN AGE. SHE HAD ISSUES

WITH BEFRIENDING PEOPLE HALF HER AGE. EASIER TO CONTROL I GUESS. MOST OF THEM

SOMEHOW ASSOCIATED WITH ME, WHO USUALLY COME TO FIND OUT SHE IS NOT RIGHT IN THE

HEAD SO TO SPEAK. I TOO AM TRYING TO GET OVER THAT HABIT OF FEELING LIKE YOU

NEED TO KEEP THEM INFORMED. I THINK WE DO IT TO TRY TO AVOID TURMOIL, GUILT OR

SOMETHING BUT IT ALWAYS END UP IN TURMOIL. IT TAKES PRACTICE. BEST WISHED FOR

YOU SON TO BE WELL. BE STRONG!!!

KATIE

A " HOW TO " Lesson ~

I'm writing this as I watch the time tick by, waiting for son's Dr.'s appt

at 1:45. It dawned on me that steps I'm consciously taking at this moment could

potentially be helpful to some on this board when faced with their individual

crisis. I'll explain.

My son is sick. Flashed sick last night - 103 temp, shakes, upset tummy,

headache, etc. 9/14 of his football team was out last week with the flu. He's

had the flu shot so we thought he 'escaped it'... apparently not. But at least

one tested positive for N1H1. We're headed to Dr this afternoon at above

mentioned time. This could get bad.

I just got off the phone with my dad to tell him what's what. I've decided NOT

to call Nada. (This is where the usefullness of this post may come in handy...)

1) To call her now would simply give her the incentive to get in the car,

drive 3 1/2 hours and be at the Dr's appt. " To be supportive. " I can't deal with

her making it somehow about her potential loss... and how devastated she was

when she was sick in 8th grade... and how devastated teen will be to miss the

semi-final games of FB that he worked so hard to make (first game this

afternoon). Basically, she would bring NOTHING POSITIVE to the party.

2) This would provide her with, " I need to move back because *I* am missing

out on so much and what would I do if he DIED from this? Nuff said.

3) It will all become about supporting ME and HIM then turn hideous because

SHE will be the Martyr (I just moved and have my OWN stuff youknow but... I came

FOR YOU! You're my babies!!!!) Ugh.

So, after 1 1/2 years+ of therapy I've learned to not call her with this

stuff. Not expect that " this time will be different " if she did show up. Not

expect that " she'd be the mom/grandma I/we need " . That she'd be more disruptive,

damaging, chaotic than she is worth. I will call her after the Dr's appt later

this pm. Won't leave her out of phone updates (I'll have my hands fully full

shortly and can't do long phone chats) but I certainly am not gift-wrapping a

crisis for her to unwrap.

Often on this board we talk about " how do I NOT tell her " ... " why did she do

X? " ... well kids, I'm here to say, it is possible to NOT tell them everything

(when therapist told me I wasn't obligated to share everything with my Mother, I

thought she was crazy... took almost a year to get it to be a habit... the first

few times felt like I was ripping my guts out with my own hands... but trust me,

it gets easier). It's also important to really write down (for me - here) what

IS 99% LIKELY to happen if you do tell them (see above.)

A word to y'all... use this real world example when you feel like you have to

involve your Nada/Fada's... it's just not worth it. There is ALWAYS an option

B... find it!

Peace.

Lynnette

[Guest guest]

wow, do you mind a few questions ( I think of this often with my father,

except knowing the times, they weren't together for very long periods at a

time, and I know nada can control herself for short periods of time...) why

did you marry this guy ? could he hide it so well from you ? or was he

your ticket away from your nada ? your ex sounds really scary !! what did

he do to his family ? I'm glad he didn't completely break you !! and I'm

glad you're away from him

Jackie

I know that glint well, especially from nada (and during the last year with

PDex.) There must be some self-satisfaction in being crazy and watching

someone break. Nada would relentlessly belittle and scream at someone in an

effort to try to get him to strike her so she could call the cops (it was a

game to her, she won most of the time she was SO good at pushing buttons and

she would not stop.) PDex broke me, he took an independent woman and tore

her mind apart. But I will use PDex as an example here because I know a lot

more about him than I do nada... and PDex is WORSE than nada. PDex is

clearly insane, he is delusional and paranoid. He will FREAK OUT any time

his version of " reality " is challenged (even if he is berating himself,

comforting him is nothing more than disagreeing with him and that only

confuses and frustrates him more.) PDex FREAKS OUT when the reality of his

abuses are discussed, he either goes literally insane (self harm, throwing

things, breaking things, screaming, yelling, ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh) or he

dissociates. When he dissociates, he has this strange look on his face like

he is having a stroke or something and his eyes kind of wiggle side to side

or occasionally roll back in his head most of the way. It is very scary and

it got worse over time, it took longer and longer for him to " snap out of

it " then he would right his eyes and face and look at me like he was

confused and why was I acting scared/concerned. But this guy would grab his

OWN throat and try to rip it open with his bare hands whenever he was asked

to face reality. It was less painful to him to punish himself, to cause

himself great pain, that to bare the burdens of his own crimes against his

family. So, he lives in denial (as does most of his family) because he

cannot tolerate the alternative - facing reality. He even says that

counseling hurts too much, he cannot deal with what he has done but his

denial and

delusions allow him to continue the abusive behavior, making him hate

himself more and continue the cycle of abuse. Then, when he says that he can

take no more blame (for his own actions, mind you) he begins to blame others

(me mostly, then our son, then whoever else is convenient.) No, I don't

understand any of this insanity but I have read some of the books and

articles and I have witnesses this insane person going even MORE insane due

to his own acts, calling himself a monster, and then blaming ME when he took

me as far down as he could take me. Nada is about 10% of PDex but even that

makes me wonder what she put her ex's through, I witnessed only the tip of

the iceburg from her.

[Guest guest]

Jackie,

he was VERY convincing as a " nice guy " at the beginning. He has gotten worse

over time. As he hates himself more for the abuse he inflicts, he becomes more

hateful and blaming of his behaviors. I thought he was the greatest guy I had

ever met. He convinced me that we were soul mates. I didn't see the scary side

until we were engaged and later moved in together.. We were engaged for a few

months before living together and we had known one another for about a year by

then. He was SO eager and interested and intent. I had no idea what I was in

store for. Then he terrified me into staying, I was genuinely afraid of him AND

I felt sorry for him because he was clearly a damaged human being. I thought he

would get better when he felt less insecure in our relationship, I had never

even heard of BPD at that time. I didn't know that a human being was capable of

the things that he did.

The family that he harmed was our family (me and my son as well as PDex himself,

he hurt himself by hurting us.) PDex said that he wanted to kill the monster

that was hurting ME but the monster was inside of him so all he could do was

abuse himself to try to tear the monster out. It was bizarre and scary, if he

could have ripped out what ailed him then I do believe he would have. He says

that he wants to die every day. But he did everything that he could to tear me

down and he refused to get counseling, he refused to get help. Now his foo is

brainwashing him into believing that there is nothing wrong with him and I just

don't get it! He basically stopped talking to his foo when he moved in with me,

he acted like living with them was horrible, but now they are all allies against

me and my son.

________________________________

To: WTOAdultChildren1

Sent: Tuesday, October 6, 2009 11:42:34 AM

Subject: Re: Re: A " HOW TO " Lesson ~

wow, do you mind a few questions ( I think of this often with my father,

except knowing the times, they weren't together for very long periods at a

time, and I know nada can control herself for short periods of time....) why

did you marry this guy ? could he hide it so well from you ? or was he

your ticket away from your nada ? your ex sounds really scary !! what did

he do to his family ? I'm glad he didn't completely break you !! and I'm

glad you're away from him

Jackie

I know that glint well, especially from nada (and during the last year with

PDex.) There must be some self-satisfaction in being crazy and watching

someone break. Nada would relentlessly belittle and scream at someone in an

effort to try to get him to strike her so she could call the cops (it was a

game to her, she won most of the time she was SO good at pushing buttons and

she would not stop.) PDex broke me, he took an independent woman and tore

her mind apart. But I will use PDex as an example here because I know a lot

more about him than I do nada... and PDex is WORSE than nada. PDex is

clearly insane, he is delusional and paranoid. He will FREAK OUT any time

his version of " reality " is challenged (even if he is berating himself,

comforting him is nothing more than disagreeing with him and that only

confuses and frustrates him more.) PDex FREAKS OUT when the reality of his

abuses are discussed, he either goes literally insane (self harm, throwing

things, breaking things, screaming, yelling, ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh) or he

dissociates. When he dissociates, he has this strange look on his face like

he is having a stroke or something and his eyes kind of wiggle side to side

or occasionally roll back in his head most of the way. It is very scary and

it got worse over time, it took longer and longer for him to " snap out of

it " then he would right his eyes and face and look at me like he was

confused and why was I acting scared/concerned. But this guy would grab his

OWN throat and try to rip it open with his bare hands whenever he was asked

to face reality. It was less painful to him to punish himself, to cause

himself great pain, that to bare the burdens of his own crimes against his

family. So, he lives in denial (as does most of his family) because he

cannot tolerate the alternative - facing reality. He even says that

counseling hurts too much, he cannot deal with what he has done but his

denial and

delusions allow him to continue the abusive behavior, making him hate

himself more and continue the cycle of abuse. Then, when he says that he can

take no more blame (for his own actions, mind you) he begins to blame others

(me mostly, then our son, then whoever else is convenient.) No, I don't

understand any of this insanity but I have read some of the books and

articles and I have witnesses this insane person going even MORE insane due

to his own acts, calling himself a monster, and then blaming ME when he took

me as far down as he could take me. Nada is about 10% of PDex but even that

makes me wonder what she put her ex's through, I witnessed only the tip of

the iceburg from her.

[Guest guest]

Me either, I have a big issue with that.

OK: the bpd is in genuine emotional pain: nada feels hurt, rejected, unloved,

angry, disrespected, etc. Let's say nada's husband just

mentioned that they need cut back on spending because the household budget is

thin, then hubby left the house to run an errand.

The object of nada's rage is not available, so nada slaps her 3-year-old child

around and screams in her face until the child urinates on herself in terror.

Ahhhh! Nada feels better!

Why, exactly, am I supposed to have compassion for nada?

If nada had instead gone into the backyard to kick the dog around until it was

shrieking from broken bones, you can bet the neighbors would have been outraged

and called the cops on nada. Nobody would be worrying about nada's feelings, or

why she did it. There are consequences for abusing animals.

-Annie

>

> OK, I guess I just dont grasp the " pain " concept. I have severe arthritis,

> I'm always in pain...but I don't act like nada does..the pictures of my nada

> she always looked mad

>

> Jackie

>

>

>

> Jackie,

>

> I do believe that PDs feel tremendous " pain. " The problem is that anything

> and EVERYTHING hurts them. They can't assuage it themselves, so they just

> " offload " it onto others - usually the one closest - the one they most

> (secretly) identify with or are attached to. That offloading covers

> everything along the spectrum from just being the pitiful victim to those

> that are so horrible and sadistic they defy any degree of understanding or

> compassion.

>

> I remember a picture my nada took in her mid forties. She thought it was a

> lovely picture, but I always hated it. She once asked me why and I told her

> it just looked like she was in such pain (it really looked like it was

> leaking our her pores). She said, " Really? " It was clear then as now that

> she has never really been able to " see " herself as she really is.

>

> Suzy

>

[Guest guest]

that makes a lot of sense...nada and I were trying to have a " discussion "

about my attitude and her behavior, and during the " talk " my face got red,

she stopped talking ( I am very light skinned and get red for several

reasons) said I was angry ( I was not) and said she refuses to talk to me

when I'm mad..and walked away LOL...her way of getting out of having to be

accountable for anything

Jackie

I've read about a study (I hope I saved the link) in which people diagnosed

with bpd were asked to label the expressions/emotions of a series of images

of people's faces. Not surprisingly, the bpd group did very poorly compared

to the control groups. Their ability to interpret other people's

expressions of sadness, puzzlement, fear, or happiness is definitely

impaired.

Its like being born color-blind; I think my nada is emotionally color-blind.

She can't perceive or interpret emotions coming at her from other people,

she only sees/experiences her own emotions from inside, and projects them

out onto other people.

Interesting that your nada would view a photo of her own self and not see

the expression of sadness/pain there; she's emotionally color-blind to her

own image, once she's not experiencing the emotion in real time, she can't

see it in a photo.

-Annie

[Guest guest]

Annie,

you said " Why, exactly, am I supposed to have compassion for nada? "

I don't think that there is ANY reason to have compassion for a chronically

abusive person who refuses to seek help. Their pain in no way excuses what they

did. It is OK to recognize that they are suffering but MOST of their suffering

is self inflicted and avoidable. They are insane but they are also dangerous and

sometimes scary people. I certainly don't feel sorry for my nada and now that I

know how far gone PDex is (after YEARS of begging, pleading, and demanding that

he get help) I don't feel sorry for him either. A normal person would get help

if they were suffering that much. If I broke my leg then refused to seek

treatment for it, do you think my employer would feel sorry for me if I was

hobbling around and making things worse? NOPE.

________________________________

To: WTOAdultChildren1

Sent: Tuesday, October 6, 2009 11:59:59 AM

Subject: Re: A " HOW TO " Lesson ~

Me either, I have a big issue with that.

OK: the bpd is in genuine emotional pain: nada feels hurt, rejected, unloved,

angry, disrespected, etc. Let's say nada's husband just

mentioned that they need cut back on spending because the household budget is

thin, then hubby left the house to run an errand.

The object of nada's rage is not available, so nada slaps her 3-year-old child

around and screams in her face until the child urinates on herself in terror.

Ahhhh! Nada feels better!

Why, exactly, am I supposed to have compassion for nada?

If nada had instead gone into the backyard to kick the dog around until it was

shrieking from broken bones, you can bet the neighbors would have been outraged

and called the cops on nada. Nobody would be worrying about nada's feelings, or

why she did it. There are consequences for abusing animals.

-Annie

>

> OK, I guess I just dont grasp the " pain " concept.. I have severe arthritis,

> I'm always in pain...but I don't act like nada does..the pictures of my nada

> she always looked mad

>

> Jackie

>

>

>

> Jackie,

>

> I do believe that PDs feel tremendous " pain. " The problem is that anything

> and EVERYTHING hurts them. They can't assuage it themselves, so they just

> " offload " it onto others - usually the one closest - the one they most

> (secretly) identify with or are attached to. That offloading covers

> everything along the spectrum from just being the pitiful victim to those

> that are so horrible and sadistic they defy any degree of understanding or

> compassion.

>

> I remember a picture my nada took in her mid forties. She thought it was a

> lovely picture, but I always hated it. She once asked me why and I told her

> it just looked like she was in such pain (it really looked like it was

> leaking our her pores). She said, " Really? " It was clear then as now that

> she has never really been able to " see " herself as she really is.

>

> Suzy

>

[Guest guest]

how is that painful ?

> Being denied undue entitlement.

this makes sense, thanks for the explaination..

Jackie

> for an immensely immature person, instead of trying to compete with

> others, or, better, being happy for them when they succeed ,they act like

> 6 year olds when they see someone else has achieved something, and don't

> get it themselves. Since they are emotionally immature, they they do

> another-pull someone else down to a lower lever so they look higher up in

> status in a relative sense, proving to themselves the person did not

> deserve nor was better than they are at something. They never accep the

> more mature, superego concept that they worked for it, and deserve it for

> that, and that it's easier to destory than build. The resentment gets

> compunded when they prove te others were flawed since thye were brought

> down, and they feel life has bee nfickle and capricious, and unfair giving

> the successfu lperso nsomething, so they double their convictio nand

> resentment after that.

>

> This can easily be solved by growing up, but given most people like that

> on't develop a superego due to over-obsession/narcissism of themselves,

> then you get the borderline's constant complaints of being explaoited and

> life being unfair, while they at the same time are the ones doing that

> themselves.

>

> Like winning a chess game by cheating. The liar still feels like he's won,

> but he knows deep down he didn't, and doesn't take the time to develop

> skills to win it or improve naturally.

[Guest guest]

yeah, it just doesn't make sense !!

Jackie

Me either, I have a big issue with that.

OK: the bpd is in genuine emotional pain: nada feels hurt, rejected,

unloved, angry, disrespected, etc. Let's say nada's husband just

mentioned that they need cut back on spending because the household budget

is thin, then hubby left the house to run an errand.

The object of nada's rage is not available, so nada slaps her 3-year-old

child around and screams in her face until the child urinates on herself in

terror. Ahhhh! Nada feels better!

Why, exactly, am I supposed to have compassion for nada?

If nada had instead gone into the backyard to kick the dog around until it

was shrieking from broken bones, you can bet the neighbors would have been

outraged and called the cops on nada. Nobody would be worrying about nada's

feelings, or why she did it. There are consequences for abusing animals.

-Annie

[Guest guest]

At 07:34 AM 10/06/2009 sleddog wrote:

>I have a dumb question...why do we assume they " hurt " so badly

>?? do we

>know that they actually do ??

I think it would be more accurate to say that they feel negative

emotions most of the time rather than describing it as hurting.

My nada seems to live in a constant state of unhappiness and

dissatisfaction. The grass is always greener somewhere else for

her. No matter what she has, it isn't good enough nor is anybody

good enough. She also misinterprets a lot of things as personal

attacks against her, so she feels the negative emotions that go

along with that too - anger, disappointment, etc. I think that

what she feels most of the time is the emotional equivalent of a

chronicly achy joint that occasionally delivers sharp pains when

it is bent the wrong way.

--

Katrina

[Guest guest]

haha, or as PDex would say " If I don't get it NOW I won't ever get it!!!!! "

or his classic " you are just doing this to punish me " (when I tried to protect

myself from his abuse.)

________________________________

To: WTOAdultChildren1

Sent: Tuesday, October 6, 2009 2:00:37 PM

Subject: Re: Re: A " HOW TO " Lesson ~

No self-discipline. Mine, mine mine!

Messages in this topic (41) Reply (via web post) | Start a new topic

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can find at any bookstore. Welcome to the WTO community!

From Randi Kreger, Owner BPDCentral, WTO Online Community and author SWOE and

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[Guest guest]

you make a lot of sense...and if they " hurt " then you feel sorry for them

and THEY are the victims !! I don't buy that !

Jackie

>>

>

>

> no. And if it is not a legitimate hurt, like she expects something she

> doesn't deserve, why do we treat it like she was abused or hurting like

> people with real problems, too?

>

> It's because they and the therapists say so. But that is mind reading.

> They don't really know. Also ,I thin ka therapist getting you to feel

> sorry puts you in the one up position, which is easier to handle than the

> one down, getting beat up position. But it's still a lie .Could we have

> less games and just deal with life as it is, with therapists? why does it

> always have to be misplaced pity? Doesn't that just see mto continue the

> cycle?

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

exactly !!! just like a 2-3 year old !!

Jackie

>

>> I do believe that PDs feel tremendous " pain. " The problem is that

>> anything and

>> EVERYTHING hurts them. They can't assuage it themselves, so they just

>> " offload "

>> it onto others - usually the one closest - the one they most (secretly)

>> identify

>> with or are attached to.

>

>

> No self-discipline. Mine, mine mine!

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

that makes sense, thanks!

Jackie

> At 07:34 AM 10/06/2009 sleddog wrote:

>>I have a dumb question...why do we assume they " hurt " so badly

>>?? do we

>>know that they actually do ??

>

> I think it would be more accurate to say that they feel negative

> emotions most of the time rather than describing it as hurting.

> My nada seems to live in a constant state of unhappiness and

> dissatisfaction. The grass is always greener somewhere else for

> her. No matter what she has, it isn't good enough nor is anybody

> good enough. She also misinterprets a lot of things as personal

> attacks against her, so she feels the negative emotions that go

> along with that too - anger, disappointment, etc. I think that

> what she feels most of the time is the emotional equivalent of a

> chronicly achy joint that occasionally delivers sharp pains when

> it is bent the wrong way.

>

> --

> Katrina

>

>

[Guest guest]

Annie, I really, really, really hate your nada.

> >

> > OK, I guess I just dont grasp the " pain " concept. I have severe arthritis,

> > I'm always in pain...but I don't act like nada does..the pictures of my nada

> > she always looked mad

> >

> > Jackie

> >

> >

> >

> > Jackie,

> >

> > I do believe that PDs feel tremendous " pain. " The problem is that anything

> > and EVERYTHING hurts them. They can't assuage it themselves, so they just

> > " offload " it onto others - usually the one closest - the one they most

> > (secretly) identify with or are attached to. That offloading covers

> > everything along the spectrum from just being the pitiful victim to those

> > that are so horrible and sadistic they defy any degree of understanding or

> > compassion.

> >

> > I remember a picture my nada took in her mid forties. She thought it was a

> > lovely picture, but I always hated it. She once asked me why and I told her

> > it just looked like she was in such pain (it really looked like it was

> > leaking our her pores). She said, " Really? " It was clear then as now that

> > she has never really been able to " see " herself as she really is.

> >

> > Suzy

> >

>

[Guest guest]

right !! it seems when you make them ( or any one) a victim, that takes

accountability away from them. My nada has shown way too much control to

not be accountable

Jackie

>

>

> neither do I. Teachers and people in power would punish people who faked

> illnesses when I grew up. Why can't we do that now?

>

> I don't buy it one bit. It just transfer your thinking when they say it,

> to getting angry, to thinking sad and pity for them. They are not

> pitiful-pathetic, but not pitiful.

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

yes, and these BPD's we dont make behave...and like my fada, just allowed

nada to get away with her tantrums and bad behavior, never calling her on

it...

Jackie

>

>

> right.! Except most kids grow up, and get it themselves!

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I read a cartoon once about " The 9 Types of Bosses " and one was labeled " The

Psychotic Boss-monster From Hell " The boss-monster was screaming at the

employee, " How DARE you duck when I throw things at you!? " I think it was from

Matt Groenig's book, " Work Is Hell " .

Yep, sounds like your psycho ex-husband!

-Annie

>

> haha, or as PDex would say " If I don't get it NOW I won't ever get it!!!!! "

>

> or his classic " you are just doing this to punish me " (when I tried to protect

myself from his abuse.)

>

>

>

>

> ________________________________

>

> To: WTOAdultChildren1

> Sent: Tuesday, October 6, 2009 2:00:37 PM

> Subject: Re: Re: A " HOW TO " Lesson ~

>

>

>

> No self-discipline. Mine, mine mine!

>

>

>

> Messages in this topic (41) Reply (via web post) | Start a new topic

> Messages

> Problems? Ask our friendly List Manager for help at @... SEND HER ANY

POSTS THAT CONCERN YOU; DO NOT Respond ON THE GROUP.

>

> To order the KO bible " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " call 888-35-SHELL

() for your copy. We also refer to “Understanding the Borderline

Mother†(Lawson) and “Surviving the Borderline Parent,†(Roth) which you

can find at any bookstore. Welcome to the WTO community!

>

> From Randi Kreger, Owner BPDCentral, WTO Online Community and author SWOE and

the SWOE Workbook.

> MARKETPLACE

> Mom Power: Discover the community of moms doing more for their families, for

the world and for each other

>

> Change settings via the Web (Yahoo! ID required)

> Change settings via email: Switch delivery to Daily Digest | Switch format to

Traditional

> Visit Your Group | Yahoo! Groups Terms of Use | Unsubscribe

> Recent Activity

> * 6

> New MembersVisit Your Group

> Sitebuilder

> Build a web site

> quickly & easily

> with Sitebuilder.

> Yahoo! Groups

> Small Business Group

> Improve your business

> by community exchange

> Weight Loss Group

> on Yahoo! Groups

> Get support and

> make friends online.

> .

>

> __,_.._,___

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

LOL thanks for the laugh, I really needed it today. My doh had 2 grand mal

seizure, 5 am, 8 am and noon...hopefully he's done !!

Jackie

I read a cartoon once about " The 9 Types of Bosses " and one was labeled " The

Psychotic Boss-monster From Hell " The boss-monster was screaming at the

employee, " How DARE you duck when I throw things at you!? " I think it was

from Matt Groenig's book, " Work Is Hell " .

Yep, sounds like your psycho ex-husband!

-Annie

[Guest guest]

Oh no, haven't they regulated the meds for your doggy yet? I have an epileptic

dog too. We adopted her knowing about it. It's scary, isn't it?

________________________________

To: WTOAdultChildren1

Sent: Tuesday, October 6, 2009 4:12:39 PM

Subject: Re: Re: A " HOW TO " Lesson ~

LOL thanks for the laugh, I really needed it today. My doh had 2 grand mal

seizure, 5 am, 8 am and noon...hopefully he's done !!

Jackie

I read a cartoon once about " The 9 Types of Bosses " and one was labeled " The

Psychotic Boss-monster From Hell " The boss-monster was screaming at the

employee, " How DARE you duck when I throw things at you!? " I think it was

from Matt Groenig's book, " Work Is Hell " .

Yep, sounds like your psycho ex-husband!

-Annie

[Guest guest]

how sad ( and scary !!) I can see how you could get duped by him...nada has

the whole town she lives in thinking shes a sweet, funny, charming person

!! she can really pour it on for short periods of time, so I certainly am

NOT blaming you !!! I'm just glad you got out before he killed you and

your son or himself right in front of you both !

Jackie

Jackie,

he was VERY convincing as a " nice guy " at the beginning. He has gotten worse

over time. As he hates himself more for the abuse he inflicts, he becomes

more hateful and blaming of his behaviors. I thought he was the greatest guy

I had ever met. He convinced me that we were soul mates. I didn't see the

scary side until we were engaged and later moved in together.. We were

engaged for a few months before living together and we had known one another

for about a year by then. He was SO eager and interested and intent. I had

no idea what I was in store for. Then he terrified me into staying, I was

genuinely afraid of him AND I felt sorry for him because he was clearly a

damaged human being. I thought he would get better when he felt less

insecure in our relationship, I had never even heard of BPD at that time. I

didn't know that a human being was capable of the things that he did.

The family that he harmed was our family (me and my son as well as PDex

himself, he hurt himself by hurting us.) PDex said that he wanted to kill

the monster that was hurting ME but the monster was inside of him so all he

could do was abuse himself to try to tear the monster out. It was bizarre

and scary, if he could have ripped out what ailed him then I do believe he

would have. He says that he wants to die every day. But he did everything

that he could to tear me down and he refused to get counseling, he refused

to get help. Now his foo is brainwashing him into believing that there is

nothing wrong with him and I just don't get it! He basically stopped talking

to his foo when he moved in with me, he acted like living with them was

horrible, but now they are all allies against me and my son.

[Guest guest]

Sha-Zaam!

55 replies later (geez, kids...really!) and I am coming back to hijack my

original post with an update...

I called Nada this am (so dad wouldn't have to cover)... she started to " go

there " (How come you didn't call ME when this all started... I would have come

IMMEDIATELY... What if he DIED??? ... I wouldn't get to see him before he

died.... etc.) I cut her off pretty quickly. Then the conversation became all

about HER " new " house (3rd move in 18 months) and how " wonderful and peaceful "

it is... (same thing she said about the other 2 places). I guess a sick grandson

that you can't 'be part of' is not worth much these days... crisis averted.

The funniest part of this is when I told teen that I called her and what I said,

his exact words (in between a bite of pizza roll) was " So ah... how long did it

take til she lost interest and made it about her? " Me: " Three minutes,

baby.... " Him: " Huh. "

Gotta love him.

Lynnette

>

> I'm writing this as I watch the time tick by, waiting for son's Dr.'s appt at

1:45. It dawned on me that steps I'm consciously taking at this moment could

potentially be helpful to some on this board when faced with their individual

crisis. I'll explain.

>

> My son is sick. Flashed sick last night - 103 temp, shakes, upset tummy,

headache, etc. 9/14 of his football team was out last week with the flu. He's

had the flu shot so we thought he 'escaped it'... apparently not. But at least

one tested positive for N1H1. We're headed to Dr this afternoon at above

mentioned time. This could get bad.

>

> I just got off the phone with my dad to tell him what's what. I've decided NOT

to call Nada. (This is where the usefullness of this post may come in handy...)

>

> 1) To call her now would simply give her the incentive to get in the car,

drive 3 1/2 hours and be at the Dr's appt. " To be supportive. " I can't deal

with her making it somehow about her potential loss... and how devastated she

was when she was sick in 8th grade... and how devastated teen will be to miss

the semi-final games of FB that he worked so hard to make (first game this

afternoon). Basically, she would bring NOTHING POSITIVE to the party.

>

> 2) This would provide her with, " I need to move back because *I* am missing

out on so much and what would I do if he DIED from this? Nuff said.

>

> 3) It will all become about supporting ME and HIM then turn hideous because

SHE will be the Martyr (I just moved and have my OWN stuff youknow but... I came

FOR YOU! You're my babies!!!!) Ugh.

>

> So, after 1 1/2 years+ of therapy I've learned to not call her with this

stuff. Not expect that " this time will be different " if she did show up. Not

expect that " she'd be the mom/grandma I/we need " . That she'd be more

disruptive, damaging, chaotic than she is worth. I will call her after the Dr's

appt later this pm. Won't leave her out of phone updates (I'll have my hands

fully full shortly and can't do long phone chats) but I certainly am not

gift-wrapping a crisis for her to unwrap.

>

> Often on this board we talk about " how do I NOT tell her " ... " why did she do

X? " ... well kids, I'm here to say, it is possible to NOT tell them everything

(when therapist told me I wasn't obligated to share everything with my Mother, I

thought she was crazy... took almost a year to get it to be a habit... the first

few times felt like I was ripping my guts out with my own hands... but trust me,

it gets easier). It's also important to really write down (for me - here) what

IS 99% LIKELY to happen if you do tell them (see above.)

>

> A word to y'all... use this real world example when you feel like you have to

involve your Nada/Fada's... it's just not worth it. There is ALWAYS an option

B... find it!

>

> Peace.

>

> Lynnette

>

[Guest guest]

That is great! High-five to you for handling nada beautifully, and to Teen for

being so on top of things! Kudos to you for educating him so that nada can't

hurt him; he's so " got her number. "

I'm so happy for both of you, and get well soon, Teen.

-Annie

> >

> > I'm writing this as I watch the time tick by, waiting for son's Dr.'s appt

at 1:45. It dawned on me that steps I'm consciously taking at this moment could

potentially be helpful to some on this board when faced with their individual

crisis. I'll explain.

> >

> > My son is sick. Flashed sick last night - 103 temp, shakes, upset tummy,

headache, etc. 9/14 of his football team was out last week with the flu. He's

had the flu shot so we thought he 'escaped it'... apparently not. But at least

one tested positive for N1H1. We're headed to Dr this afternoon at above

mentioned time. This could get bad.

> >

> > I just got off the phone with my dad to tell him what's what. I've decided

NOT to call Nada. (This is where the usefullness of this post may come in

handy...)

> >

> > 1) To call her now would simply give her the incentive to get in the car,

drive 3 1/2 hours and be at the Dr's appt. " To be supportive. " I can't deal

with her making it somehow about her potential loss... and how devastated she

was when she was sick in 8th grade... and how devastated teen will be to miss

the semi-final games of FB that he worked so hard to make (first game this

afternoon). Basically, she would bring NOTHING POSITIVE to the party.

> >

> > 2) This would provide her with, " I need to move back because *I* am missing

out on so much and what would I do if he DIED from this? Nuff said.

> >

> > 3) It will all become about supporting ME and HIM then turn hideous because

SHE will be the Martyr (I just moved and have my OWN stuff youknow but... I came

FOR YOU! You're my babies!!!!) Ugh.

> >

> > So, after 1 1/2 years+ of therapy I've learned to not call her with this

stuff. Not expect that " this time will be different " if she did show up. Not

expect that " she'd be the mom/grandma I/we need " . That she'd be more

disruptive, damaging, chaotic than she is worth. I will call her after the Dr's

appt later this pm. Won't leave her out of phone updates (I'll have my hands

fully full shortly and can't do long phone chats) but I certainly am not

gift-wrapping a crisis for her to unwrap.

> >

> > Often on this board we talk about " how do I NOT tell her " ... " why did she do

X? " ... well kids, I'm here to say, it is possible to NOT tell them everything

(when therapist told me I wasn't obligated to share everything with my Mother, I

thought she was crazy... took almost a year to get it to be a habit... the first

few times felt like I was ripping my guts out with my own hands... but trust me,

it gets easier). It's also important to really write down (for me - here) what

IS 99% LIKELY to happen if you do tell them (see above.)

> >

> > A word to y'all... use this real world example when you feel like you have

to involve your Nada/Fada's... it's just not worth it. There is ALWAYS an

option B... find it!

> >

> > Peace.

> >

> > Lynnette

> >

>

[Guest guest]

yeah, that sounds like it :-( My sister tried to tell some long time family

friends about mothers behavior...they ripped her a new one !! of course

they lived far away from us, so we only saw them once in a while, for 3-4

hours ( or shorter, nada would get a " headache " and we'd have to leave)

nada could control herself for that short period of time, and only maybe 2X

a year...so they never saw any of the bad crap we had to endure..they'd talk

on the phone once in a while, but that was for a short time, and they'd

write letters...so they think they know nada...but they've been

duped...she's nothing like they think she is..

Jackie

>

> Exactly. all that manipulation takes quite a bit of thought, doesn't it?

> It's not an accident. Another thing this does though, is because people

> don't know how to handle it, nor what is really going on, they get burned

> and refuse to help, support or get involved with people who do want to

> change or are telling the truth. It'a double edged sword. She ruins others

> people's lives by extension.

>

> But no one in power , will stop her. They just say it's your mother, as if

> that made everything okay. If it is ,the mafia and gangs ought to start

> having women sell drugs and kill people, as that would be alright

> according to the formulation people are following righ now. Hey, she has

> bpd, and sells drugs. We can't possibly arrest her. She's REALLY hurting,

> lol!

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

OK, so nada feels chronically achy.

I have a migraine headaches from time to time, but I do not believe that that

gives me the right to hit *you* on the head with a hammer if you happen to be

near me, so that you will hurt as much as I do.

But that is what nadas do.

Nadas feel they are entitled to hurt other people's feelings when nada's

feelings are hurt (or nada is angry, feeling unloved, disrespected, ignored,

etc.) and my nada can flash into anger or hurt at the drop of a pin. Sister is

a few minutes late picking nada up, and when Sister arrives nada is both enraged

and upset and accuses Sister of being hateful, angry, upsetting her on purpose,

etc. Honest to God, all that over being 3 minutes late. And our nada has had

these absurd and destructive expectations of us, just like that, our whole

lives. Every little thing is a big freaking deal.

THAT's precisely what makes nadas so unfit to parent children. Nadas are the

opposite of mellow, centered, calm, easygoing, flexible, creative, joyful,

curious, nurturing, selfless, confident, and all the other positive qualities

that make for " good enough " mothering.

If nada feels justified in lashing out like a wounded animal whenever she feels

hurt (which is pretty much all the time) instead of behaving like a rational

human being, then nada is not mentally healthy (or evolved) enough to be around

kids.

-Annie

> I think that

> what she feels most of the time is the emotional equivalent of a

> chronicly achy joint that occasionally delivers sharp pains when

> it is bent the wrong way.

>

> --

> Katrina

>

[Guest guest]

I agree completely. Pain, emotional or physical, is not a good

reason for abusing other people. Nothing excuses the things they

do in my opinion. Unfortunately, nadas don't care whether the

rest of us think they have a good reason for what they do.

Trying to understand what their problem is and why they act the

way they do is useful in trying to figure out how to protect

ourselves and others from them though. Most of us know not to

get our hands near an injured and hurting dog. That's kind of

how we have to act around our nadas - we have to keep out of

range of their bites.

At 06:27 PM 10/06/2009 anuria67854 wrote:

>OK, so nada feels chronically achy.

>

>I have a migraine headaches from time to time, but I do not

>believe that that gives me the right to hit *you* on the head

>with a hammer if you happen to be near me, so that you will

>hurt as much as I do.

>

>But that is what nadas do.

>

>Nadas feel they are entitled to hurt other people's feelings

>when nada's feelings are hurt (or nada is angry, feeling

>unloved, disrespected, ignored, etc.) and my nada can flash

>into anger or hurt at the drop of a pin. Sister is a few

>minutes late picking nada up, and when Sister arrives nada is

>both enraged and upset and accuses Sister of being hateful,

>angry, upsetting her on purpose, etc. Honest to God, all that

>over being 3 minutes late. And our nada has had these absurd

>and destructive expectations of us, just like that, our whole

>lives. Every little thing is a big freaking deal.

>

>THAT's precisely what makes nadas so unfit to parent

>children. Nadas are the opposite of mellow, centered, calm,

>easygoing, flexible, creative, joyful, curious, nurturing,

>selfless, confident, and all the other positive qualities that

>make for " good enough " mothering.

>

>If nada feels justified in lashing out like a wounded animal

>whenever she feels hurt (which is pretty much all the time)

>instead of behaving like a rational human being, then nada is

>not mentally healthy (or evolved) enough to be around kids.

>

>-Annie

--

Katrina