Re: What do nadas feel? Do they love?

[Guest guest]

I am in LC now; I remember the last time I went to visit nada, I took an AD

every day so I could cope with my feelings. Nada remarked that I was a lot

calmer. Duh, people are calmer on ADs. I recognized that I did not want to be

around nada that the recovery from her nastiness was most difficult and VERY

lingering.

blessings, mg

>

> I think I may try LC, but NC has been so nice! My brother will be in from

Eastern Europe in a few months and will be going to see her. Perhaps I'll go,

perhaps I won't. I may try to see her over the holidays. My husband encourages

me to wait until the holidays so my blinding frustration from the voicemail can

dissipate. I have such a hard time being warm to her now. The acting bit gets

harder to put on each the times she pulls this garbage. Maybe after a few

months I can act a little sweeter. I think she just thinks I'm depressed

because I don't talk about much when I'm around her. It almost hurts to smile

around her! I know that sounds kind of immature, but it really does kind of

suck to act like you like or love someone you're around when you actually can't

stand them. Do you know what I mean?

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Nadas really bring so much joy to our lives, don't they? I have told my dad

before to write me a script for something that will make me nice during the

visit and then forget everything that happened during the visit! Perhaps I

should see a hypnotist!

> >

> > I think I may try LC, but NC has been so nice! My brother will be in from

Eastern Europe in a few months and will be going to see her. Perhaps I'll go,

perhaps I won't. I may try to see her over the holidays. My husband encourages

me to wait until the holidays so my blinding frustration from the voicemail can

dissipate. I have such a hard time being warm to her now. The acting bit gets

harder to put on each the times she pulls this garbage. Maybe after a few

months I can act a little sweeter. I think she just thinks I'm depressed

because I don't talk about much when I'm around her. It almost hurts to smile

around her! I know that sounds kind of immature, but it really does kind of

suck to act like you like or love someone you're around when you actually can't

stand them. Do you know what I mean?

> >

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks for sharing your story too! I start therapy this week. I'm nervous and

hope the therapist and I hit it off. Wish me luck!

> > > > >

> > > > > I've read the book 'Stop Walking on Eggshells' and 'Surviving a

Borderline Parent.' They both tend to talk about how depressed and miserably

unhappy BPDs are and how we should empathize with them because their fear of

abandonment is so severe. So I've tried to better understand and love my nada

knowing her pain is deeper than anything I could ever imagine. I try to imagine

constantly feeling self-loathing and intense loneliness like the book suggests

she feels.

> > > > >

> > > > > But when I read all of your posts, it seems that these BPs don't care

about anything but having their needs met. So I wanted your opinion on a

voicemail that she left me a month ago. I want to get your impression of

whether she actually gives a d%$# about anyone besides herself. This is why

it's been so hard for me to deal with her. I keep coming back to her because of

her FOG. But is that simply a tool for manipulation? I guess I wonder whether

she ever really loved me at all. All of your posts seem to describe more than

someone with BPD. It seems like they're NPD! But I certainly don't know, just

wondering.

> > > > >

> > > > > This email was left on my cellphone 2 days after we had a 2 hour visit

with her, complete with a trip to dinner (our treat) and the bookstore, where we

bought her a book since she had no money. We were traveling through and it was

late and needed to get to my in-laws early enough that we could see them before

they went to bed.

> > > > >

> > > > > " it's mom. I hope you can hear me …….(this is a cell phone

voicemail-which I've told her many times. No, I can't hear her) I'm not going

to be …here anymore. You said this is not an option. Well, this is the only

option, . I can't go on like this. You know… so, you were in such a

hurry to get out of here Thursday. I don't know what a hold Debbie Emo (MIL)

has on you. You were in such a hurry to get down there. Sigh…What is it? You

didn't even tell me she was going to have a garage sale. There are so many

things that I could use, so many things I need… Like being part of a family

instead of being shoved in a closet for months and months like I just exist.

This place looks the same as it did last year. Nothing's been done. It's

like…It's like you're just keeping me here until I…until I do die. Until

something happens to me. I know you don't like to talk to me when I'm like

this. You only reward good behavior. Well I'm not an animal. I'm not

Pavlov's dog which rewards good behavior. I'm human. I'm not one of your dogs.

I'm human and I'm hurting. I'm so sad. I'm so sad. Because you don't want me.

You're just performing a duty to ease your conscience, like taking me out to eat

and you were in such a hurry to get out of here that night. Uh, what was it

that you had to do that you were in such a hurry? You were here for just 2

hours exactly and then you called her on your phone to tell her when you were

coming and saying " we've got to get there. Did she call? " When she says

jump,and you say " How high? " I won't take being left alone here on the

holidays. Things have to change. Or, uh,you're gonna be… you'll have one less

relative to buy a Christmas present for. I mean it. And I can do it. And I

can't do this though. This is the only option. Bye. "

> > > > >

> > > > > I haven't talked to her since this phone call. It's been over a

month. I reported her to her social worker so they would keep an eye on her...

She's made no serious attempts but was hospitalized for 5 days after this

message for psychiatric reasons.

> > > > >

> > > > > Thanks for any thoughts,

> > > > >

> > > > > Jen

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > I have been reading a lot about cluster B can someone explain that further?

Thanx julie

> >

>

[Guest guest]

I try to trust my instincts. She's a hard read. Although I think I agree that

it seems like everything she has ever done was for the purpose of manipulation.

Period. It's hard to know if anything was ever sincere.

>

> Sounds like manipulation to me. Trust your instincts. I got that from someone

on an email group years ago, that little kids can tell the difference between

love and hate. Vachss, who has a web site and was a lawyer for abused

kids, stated that, too.

>

[Guest guest]

That's sort of what I plan to do. It's the 'going back' part that I fear. I

won't know what to say or how to act the next time I see her. I have no clue!

I guess it'll come to me.

>

> If she

> > doesn't love me and doesn't need me (other than to fulfill her emotional and

> > tangible needs) then I can finally cut myself free and live my life guilty

> > free. But the thought of abandoning someone who, deep down, loves me very

much

> > and would be devastated if I abandoned her, hurts me. I think about my

husband

> > or father leaving me. I wouldn't be able to take it. I fear she could kill

> > herself if I did that.

>

> If you were willing not to abandon her if her actions changed, then it isn't

abandonment at all. You are just protecting yourself. Just back off-you don't

have to go all or nothing with her, just back off when she flips out.

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks . I think now is the time for me to try to work on myself and try

to work with some of the sweet little " gifts " my mother gave to me. Like

intense guilt, excessive judging, zero self-esteem, lack of trust in others,

and, my most shaming trait, some mild versions of raging/passive aggressiveness.

My aggression is generally the fearful dog scenario. When I'm backed into a

corner I have a tendency toward excessive self defense. I am not proud of this

and am working on it. My staff finds me to be hard to work with when I'm

stressed. I don't want to do that to them! I have high expectations of my

staff, which I think is fine, but I may be too hard on them sometimes. That's

why I'm seeing a therapist this week! Hope it helps.

> > > >

> > > > I've read the book 'Stop Walking on Eggshells' and 'Surviving a

Borderline Parent.' They both tend to talk about how depressed and miserably

unhappy BPDs are and how we should empathize with them because their fear of

abandonment is so severe. So I've tried to better understand and love my nada

knowing her pain is deeper than anything I could ever imagine. I try to imagine

constantly feeling self-loathing and intense loneliness like the book suggests

she feels.

> > > >

> > > > But when I read all of your posts, it seems that these BPs don't care

about anything but having their needs met. So I wanted your opinion on a

voicemail that she left me a month ago. I want to get your impression of

whether she actually gives a d%$# about anyone besides herself. This is why

it's been so hard for me to deal with her. I keep coming back to her because of

her FOG. But is that simply a tool for manipulation? I guess I wonder whether

she ever really loved me at all. All of your posts seem to describe more than

someone with BPD. It seems like they're NPD! But I certainly don't know, just

wondering.

> > > >

> > > > This email was left on my cellphone 2 days after we had a 2 hour visit

with her, complete with a trip to dinner (our treat) and the bookstore, where we

bought her a book since she had no money. We were traveling through and it was

late and needed to get to my in-laws early enough that we could see them before

they went to bed.

> > > >

> > > > " it's mom. I hope you can hear me …….(this is a cell phone

voicemail-which I've told her many times. No, I can't hear her) I'm not going

to be …here anymore. You said this is not an option. Well, this is the only

option, . I can't go on like this. You know… so, you were in such a

hurry to get out of here Thursday. I don't know what a hold Debbie Emo (MIL)

has on you. You were in such a hurry to get down there. Sigh…What is it? You

didn't even tell me she was going to have a garage sale. There are so many

things that I could use, so many things I need… Like being part of a family

instead of being shoved in a closet for months and months like I just exist.

This place looks the same as it did last year. Nothing's been done. It's

like…It's like you're just keeping me here until I…until I do die. Until

something happens to me. I know you don't like to talk to me when I'm like

this. You only reward good behavior. Well I'm not an animal. I'm not

Pavlov's dog which rewards good behavior. I'm human. I'm not one of your dogs.

I'm human and I'm hurting. I'm so sad. I'm so sad. Because you don't want me.

You're just performing a duty to ease your conscience, like taking me out to eat

and you were in such a hurry to get out of here that night. Uh, what was it

that you had to do that you were in such a hurry? You were here for just 2

hours exactly and then you called her on your phone to tell her when you were

coming and saying " we've got to get there. Did she call? " When she says

jump,and you say " How high? " I won't take being left alone here on the

holidays. Things have to change. Or, uh,you're gonna be… you'll have one less

relative to buy a Christmas present for. I mean it. And I can do it. And I

can't do this though. This is the only option. Bye. "

> > > >

> > > > I haven't talked to her since this phone call. It's been over a month.

I reported her to her social worker so they would keep an eye on her... She's

made no serious attempts but was hospitalized for 5 days after this message for

psychiatric reasons.

> > > >

> > > > Thanks for any thoughts,

> > > >

> > > > Jen

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

I learned the excessive self defense from PDexhubby, it was the only thing that

had any effect on the situation (begging, pleading, trying to reason with him

made no difference, I had to put HIM on the defensive to make any impact at all

on the duration and intensity of his rages and demands.) It took me years to

learn to defend myself like that, I was taught to be " the good girl " and do what

I was told so standing up for myself (other than mildly and indirectly) did not

come naturally to me. Now I have to unlearn all of the unhealthy behaviors that

both PDex taught me AND my childhood (2 extremes of the same coin.) Best of luck

with that!

________________________________

To: WTOAdultChildren1

Sent: Sunday, October 4, 2009 6:55:09 PM

Subject: Re: What do nadas feel? Do they love?

Thanks . I think now is the time for me to try to work on myself and try

to work with some of the sweet little " gifts " my mother gave to me. Like

intense guilt, excessive judging, zero self-esteem, lack of trust in others,

and, my most shaming trait, some mild versions of raging/passive aggressiveness.

My aggression is generally the fearful dog scenario. When I'm backed into a

corner I have a tendency toward excessive self defense. I am not proud of this

and am working on it. My staff finds me to be hard to work with when I'm

stressed. I don't want to do that to them! I have high expectations of my

staff, which I think is fine, but I may be too hard on them sometimes. That's

why I'm seeing a therapist this week! Hope it helps.

> > > >

> > > > I've read the book 'Stop Walking on Eggshells' and 'Surviving a

Borderline Parent.' They both tend to talk about how depressed and miserably

unhappy BPDs are and how we should empathize with them because their fear of

abandonment is so severe. So I've tried to better understand and love my nada

knowing her pain is deeper than anything I could ever imagine. I try to imagine

constantly feeling self-loathing and intense loneliness like the book suggests

she feels.

> > > >

> > > > But when I read all of your posts, it seems that these BPs don't care

about anything but having their needs met. So I wanted your opinion on a

voicemail that she left me a month ago.. I want to get your impression of

whether she actually gives a d%$# about anyone besides herself. This is why

it's been so hard for me to deal with her. I keep coming back to her because of

her FOG. But is that simply a tool for manipulation? I guess I wonder whether

she ever really loved me at all. All of your posts seem to describe more than

someone with BPD. It seems like they're NPD! But I certainly don't know, just

wondering.

> > > >

> > > > This email was left on my cellphone 2 days after we had a 2 hour visit

with her, complete with a trip to dinner (our treat) and the bookstore, where we

bought her a book since she had no money. We were traveling through and it was

late and needed to get to my in-laws early enough that we could see them before

they went to bed.

> > > >

> > > > " it's mom. I hope you can hear me …….(this is a cell

phone voicemail-which I've told her many times. No, I can't hear her) I'm not

going to be …here anymore. You said this is not an option. Well, this is the

only option, . I can't go on like this. You know… so, you were in such

a hurry to get out of here Thursday. I don't know what a hold Debbie Emo (MIL)

has on you. You were in such a hurry to get down there. Sigh…What is it?

You didn't even tell me she was going to have a garage sale. There are so many

things that I could use, so many things I need… Like being part of a family

instead of being shoved in a closet for months and months like I just exist.

This place looks the same as it did last year. Nothing's been done. It's

like…It's like you're just keeping me here until I…until I do die. Until

something happens to me. I know you don't like to talk to me when I'm like

this. You only reward

good behavior. Well I'm not an animal. I'm not Pavlov's dog which rewards

good behavior. I'm human. I'm not one of your dogs. I'm human and I'm

hurting. I'm so sad. I'm so sad. Because you don't want me. You're just

performing a duty to ease your conscience, like taking me out to eat and you

were in such a hurry to get out of here that night. Uh, what was it that you

had to do that you were in such a hurry? You were here for just 2 hours exactly

and then you called her on your phone to tell her when you were coming and

saying " we've got to get there. Did she call? " When she says jump,and you say

" How high? " I won't take being left alone here on the holidays. Things have to

change. Or, uh,you're gonna be… you'll have one less relative to buy a

Christmas present for. I mean it. And I can do it. And I can't do this though.

This is the only option. Bye. "

> > > >

> > > > I haven't talked to her since this phone call. It's been over a month.

I reported her to her social worker so they would keep an eye on her... She's

made no serious attempts but was hospitalized for 5 days after this message for

psychiatric reasons.

> > > >

> > > > Thanks for any thoughts,

> > > >

> > > > Jen

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks Kate for that lovely post. It feels like a big hug! Really! I've had a

whole month off from nada and am learning and trying to heal. I am going to

think about a lot of the things you said this week. I'm starting to realize in

this past week that all I've been doing for the last 10 years is holding my

breath and waiting for her to die. Her health problems have brought her pretty

close a few times. So I put up with her because I thought she was pretty close.

But she always pulls through. I think it made me feel so awful for awhile to

admit this outloud. " You are waiting for your mother to die so you can finally

live? What a horrible person! " is what I imagine would cross many peoples'

minds. But here, I think many people understand that the only way we will be

truly free, is when these people are gone. I don't wish for her to die. I wish

she would be free of the disorder. But I don't anticipate that will happen...

When I was a really little girl, I loved my nada so much. The worst thing that

could ever happen was for her to die. I was completely enmeshed. But then as I

got a little older, 7 or 8 maybe? I started to realize something was wrong.

Probably when my stepmom came into the picture and did crazy things like cooking

and washing laundry and picking me up from school.

In a roundabout way, I'm saying that I cannot wait until I'm 53 to get this

burden off my shoulders. I can't wait until I'm 53 to be able to breathe. To not

tense up when my phone rings. To really enjoy life fully. You know I've waited

so long to have kids 1. because I didn't understand my mother's disorder and

thought I might have it and 2. I didn't want my kids to see her. I was afraid

she'd be at the birth of my kids.

Now I realize that if I don't want her at the birth of my children, she just

WON'T be. That part's easy enough. But what about after that? I guess that's

where therapy comes into play!

Thanks for your post Rusty Tiara. It was very sweet. (((hug)))

Jen

>

>

> ,

>

> Your recent posts have been so good...I know you're in the midst of figuring

things out, but your written musings are heart-felt...giving us here much food

for thought! My nada also has many narcissistic qualities, and I have wrestled

with many of the same questions that you have.

>

> I'm beginning to think that some of my questions, such as wondering if my nada

has the ability to love, are similar to the questions I used to ponder when I

was falling asleep at night as a little girl...big things like where the world

came from, and why I was me and not somebody else...questions that lead to deep

pondering, but not to definitive answers!

>

> Maybe others here have a different experience with these dilemmas that make

our minds spin, but I've pretty much given up on getting any hard and fast

answers. Is my nada capable of love? Well, I don't know. Dogs are capable of

love...but not in the same way as fully functioning humans. How about pigs or

chickens? I don't think so. Nada? Her mind and soul are still a mystery to me. I

spent years trying to understand her, and I'm still shaking my head and trying

to make sense of it. Having the BPD diagnosis helps, but I find BPD thoughts and

behaviors so foreign to my own. It's like another language where I get a few

words and phrases, but it still sounds like gibble-gabble.

>

> I think that my nada functions at the emotional level of about a two year old.

But she's not a two year old, which is where the creepiness factor of her

illness comes in. Two year olds don't have the ability to maliciously gossip,

deliberately manipulate, and wreak havoc in people's lives the way my nada does.

So this analogy doesn't really help me with the question.

>

> Lately I've been focusing on answers to different questions...questions I can

answer, like how do I feel today, or what kind of contact can I have with my FOO

that doesn't negatively impact my life (answer to that second question: as

little contact as possible, ideally, none)

>

> I'm 53 years old and just now figuring out that the price tag attached to

continuing to have a relationship with nada is one that I can't continue to pay.

I've been 'picking up the cheque' in this relationship since I was a little

girl!

>

> It's really good that you are figuring this stuff out at a younger age. It

scares me to think that I'm just now starting to heal, just as nada is getting

to the point where the family will have to deal with her aging...she's 75.

>

> I don't hear anything of love or care for anyone else in your nada's message.

She does sound miserably unhappy, but also extremely manipulative, with BPD/Nism

leaking out all over the place. Her message really packs an emotional wallop

doesn't it? If I were in your shoes, that message would have knocked me right

out of them! There is really no answer to a message like that..other than what

you did...calling in mental health professionals.

>

> I don't like my nada either. I haven't liked her since I was 4 years old. I

remember thinking about it when I was little...how much I disliked/hated her.

Why would I " like " someone that abused me...that I was afraid of, that was

deliberately cruel to me? At times she acted " loving " , sort of, in her odd

little nada way. Maybe acting that way suited her needs, and that's what it was

about.

>

> Yes, I was bonded to her...one of the wise folks here wrote once that all

children bond to their parents. Until about a year ago, I was bonded to her in a

Stockholm syndrome/trauma bond sort of way.

>

> But that's not love either is it? N-ists just see people as extensions of

themselves or as possessions... " my arm " " my house " " my daughter " ...isn't that

the antithesis of love?

>

> I have had to face the fact that I don't love nada, and she doesn't/can't

(really) love me. I care about what happens to her. But it is nothing like the

love relationships I have with my husband and adult children...even my good

friends. I have also had to face the fact that contact with nada makes me sick.

Literally sick. I got to the point where I had to put on my own parachute and

bail out of the relationship, as it was heading down, and I had to leave nada

behind and save my own life. I still deal with the guilt and all the rest of it,

but it's gotten better in the last few months.

>

> You sound like a very intelligent, insightful person. I hope that support here

is helpful to you in figuring out the what-to-do part of dealing with a mother

with untreated BPD/NPD.

>

> P.S. I believe that Randi calls the BPD/NPD combo " border-lions " and that

they are doubly hard to deal with. Another good resource is the book

Understanding the Borderline Mother by Ann Lawson. My copy is nearly

worn out. I picked this book up every time I got lost in the fog of fear,

obligation, and guilt.

>

> For me, the signposts showing the way out have been groups like this, books,

therapy, journaling, and supportive friends.

>

> Thanks for your posts..we benefit from your thoughts and experience too...it

goes both ways.

>

> Kate aka Rusty Tiara

> >

>

>

> > Thanks Katrina for that fast reply. I'm trying to figure out how my nada's

condition is different from NPD. I read 'malignant self love' a few years ago

and that fit pretty well. But there was that whole issue of love and feeling.

The question was if she could feel love or empathy. Narcissists can't, I think.

But narcissists are supposed to be pretty high functioning, which she isn't.

Then there's the hypochondriac/Munchausen's thing. She's nearly died multiple

times of infections that were preventable/treatable early on. If she doesn't

love me and doesn't need me (other than to fulfill her emotional and tangible

needs) then I can finally cut myself free and live my life guilty free. But the

thought of abandoning someone who, deep down, loves me very much and would be

devastated if I abandoned her, hurts me. I think about my husband or father

leaving me. I wouldn't be able to take it. I fear she could kill herself if I

did that. My father assures me that my mother is a narcissist, and narcissists

typically are unwilling to kill themselves, despite their threats.

> >

> > I know that any problem in your life that affects your day-to-day quality of

life is a big problem. Something that needs to be fixed. If depression keeps

you from leaving the house, you need medical help. If your ACL is torn and

keeps you from running, walking, biking-doing what you love-it might be time to

consider surgery. And yet, my 'Aha' moment is slow to come. My quality of life

from having a relationship with her is so poor (just for the immediate time

before-during-after visits/phone calls) that you'd think I would just " get it. "

But she's my mom. And I feel sorry for her. If I had her life, I'd kill

myself. She's all alone. No one listens to her. She's about to be kicked out

of her apartment and be institutionalized (more because of her financial issues

then mental issues.) Although her financial issues are a direct result of her

mental issues. It's so hard to walk away from it. If this were my father, I'd

sell a kidney to help him. I'd move him right into my house to take care of him

if he needed me to. But with her, I can't even lift a finger to call... I

really feel like a horrible person sometimes. The rational me knows I'm not

horrible. But the daughter in me tucks her tail between her legs and says, " I

could do more for her. "

> >

> > Now I'm NC for the first time in years and wonder if that was maybe overkill

for the message she left? But the message just shows that in 30 years,

nothing's changed. Do I really want to be 50 years old and still be told that

I'm ingrateful and selfish? That I need to give away more of my soul? How much

of my soul is enough?

> >

> > The other issue, of course, is that I think I hate her. I really do. And I

can't hide it when I'm with her. I can plaster a smile on my face and buy her

stuff and have a meal with her, but it's excruciating. I feel like she only

sees me as a taxicab and a credit card. I don't want anything bad to happen to

her, but I can't stand her! From the message you can see that when I'm with

her, it shows. (obligation, easing my conscience, etc) I joined this group in

the hopes that I could better understand how to relate to her and talk to her

and keep my guard up to keep from getting hurt. But the more stories I read, it

looks like that's not going to end well for me. But going NC without

explanation seems disrespectful since she doesn't even know that she crossed the

line. Yet how can I explain why I went NC? There's no explaining it! So I'm

endlessly confused and sitting on the face as day by day goes by. Failing to

commit one way or the other as to when/if I'll talk to her again. I suspect

I'll probably make up with her for Thanksgiving and Christmas, then wait until

her birthday to have anything to do with her again.

> >

> > Drama, drama, drama. No other part of my life has drama. I'm very happily

married. I have a good job and steady income (as does my husband). I have a

good relationship with siblings. Life is so easy without her. I'm enjoying my

vacation from the weekly hourlong rants about why life is so horrible. I'm

milking this vacation for all it's worth.

> >

> > Thanks for listening for the long haul. I know these are long posts. 30

years of conflicted thoughts take some time to work through!

> >

> >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Best of luck to you too! I guess it's a neverending process. But so is

lifelearning in general, right?

> > > > >

> > > > > I've read the book 'Stop Walking on Eggshells' and 'Surviving a

Borderline Parent.' They both tend to talk about how depressed and miserably

unhappy BPDs are and how we should empathize with them because their fear of

abandonment is so severe. So I've tried to better understand and love my nada

knowing her pain is deeper than anything I could ever imagine. I try to imagine

constantly feeling self-loathing and intense loneliness like the book suggests

she feels.

> > > > >

> > > > > But when I read all of your posts, it seems that these BPs don't care

about anything but having their needs met. So I wanted your opinion on a

voicemail that she left me a month ago.. I want to get your impression of

whether she actually gives a d%$# about anyone besides herself. This is why

it's been so hard for me to deal with her. I keep coming back to her because of

her FOG. But is that simply a tool for manipulation? I guess I wonder whether

she ever really loved me at all. All of your posts seem to describe more than

someone with BPD. It seems like they're NPD! But I certainly don't know, just

wondering.

> > > > >

> > > > > This email was left on my cellphone 2 days after we had a 2 hour visit

with her, complete with a trip to dinner (our treat) and the bookstore, where we

bought her a book since she had no money. We were traveling through and it was

late and needed to get to my in-laws early enough that we could see them before

they went to bed.

> > > > >

> > > > > " it's mom. I hope you can hear me …….(this is a cell

phone voicemail-which I've told her many times. No, I can't hear her) I'm not

going to be …here anymore. You said this is not an option. Well, this is the

only option, . I can't go on like this. You know… so, you were in such

a hurry to get out of here Thursday. I don't know what a hold Debbie Emo (MIL)

has on you. You were in such a hurry to get down there. Sigh…What is it?

You didn't even tell me she was going to have a garage sale. There are so many

things that I could use, so many things I need… Like being part of a family

instead of being shoved in a closet for months and months like I just exist.

This place looks the same as it did last year. Nothing's been done. It's

like…It's like you're just keeping me here until I…until I do die. Until

something happens to me. I know you don't like to talk to me when I'm like

this. You only reward

> good behavior. Well I'm not an animal. I'm not Pavlov's dog which rewards

good behavior. I'm human. I'm not one of your dogs. I'm human and I'm

hurting. I'm so sad. I'm so sad. Because you don't want me. You're just

performing a duty to ease your conscience, like taking me out to eat and you

were in such a hurry to get out of here that night. Uh, what was it that you

had to do that you were in such a hurry? You were here for just 2 hours exactly

and then you called her on your phone to tell her when you were coming and

saying " we've got to get there. Did she call? " When she says jump,and you say

" How high? " I won't take being left alone here on the holidays. Things have to

change. Or, uh,you're gonna be… you'll have one less relative to buy a

Christmas present for. I mean it. And I can do it. And I can't do this though.

This is the only option. Bye. "

> > > > >

> > > > > I haven't talked to her since this phone call. It's been over a

month. I reported her to her social worker so they would keep an eye on her...

She's made no serious attempts but was hospitalized for 5 days after this

message for psychiatric reasons.

> > > > >

> > > > > Thanks for any thoughts,

> > > > >

> > > > > Jen

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Jen - you asked about having kids. Many of us here got real serious about

fending off our Nadas when we realized they were doing to our kids what they'd

done to us. I wouldn't worry about it too much - you are already miles ahead of

where many of us were when we had kids. You've identified the problem and and

know what you have to do. The only hard part is the DOING. Many of us limit

contact, never leave our kids unsupervised with our Nadas, find other

grandparent substitutes, figure out how to tell our children - diplomatically -

why they don't go see Granny very often. It's all doable. Of course, you want

to be sure you live on the other side of the continent and that you never have

to depend on Nada for anything... I'm kidding (sort of) - distance really will

make it easier to keep GrandNada from dropping by to see " her " precious

grandbaby (and driving you crazy).

But don't let Nada keep you from doing what you NEED to do in your life -

whether it's getting an education, getting married, having kids (or deciding not

to), changing careers, or moving away. Even though she's your mom, she

shouldn't have that kind of power - and it's not like you're going to get extra

credit with her if you follow her rules. You might as well live your life the

way you want to.

> >

> >

> > ,

> >

> > Your recent posts have been so good...I know you're in the midst of figuring

things out, but your written musings are heart-felt...giving us here much food

for thought! My nada also has many narcissistic qualities, and I have wrestled

with many of the same questions that you have.

> >

> > I'm beginning to think that some of my questions, such as wondering if my

nada has the ability to love, are similar to the questions I used to ponder when

I was falling asleep at night as a little girl...big things like where the world

came from, and why I was me and not somebody else...questions that lead to deep

pondering, but not to definitive answers!

> >

> > Maybe others here have a different experience with these dilemmas that make

our minds spin, but I've pretty much given up on getting any hard and fast

answers. Is my nada capable of love? Well, I don't know. Dogs are capable of

love...but not in the same way as fully functioning humans. How about pigs or

chickens? I don't think so. Nada? Her mind and soul are still a mystery to me. I

spent years trying to understand her, and I'm still shaking my head and trying

to make sense of it. Having the BPD diagnosis helps, but I find BPD thoughts and

behaviors so foreign to my own. It's like another language where I get a few

words and phrases, but it still sounds like gibble-gabble.

> >

> > I think that my nada functions at the emotional level of about a two year

old. But she's not a two year old, which is where the creepiness factor of her

illness comes in. Two year olds don't have the ability to maliciously gossip,

deliberately manipulate, and wreak havoc in people's lives the way my nada does.

So this analogy doesn't really help me with the question.

> >

> > Lately I've been focusing on answers to different questions...questions I

can answer, like how do I feel today, or what kind of contact can I have with my

FOO that doesn't negatively impact my life (answer to that second question: as

little contact as possible, ideally, none)

> >

> > I'm 53 years old and just now figuring out that the price tag attached to

continuing to have a relationship with nada is one that I can't continue to pay.

I've been 'picking up the cheque' in this relationship since I was a little

girl!

> >

> > It's really good that you are figuring this stuff out at a younger age. It

scares me to think that I'm just now starting to heal, just as nada is getting

to the point where the family will have to deal with her aging...she's 75.

> >

> > I don't hear anything of love or care for anyone else in your nada's

message. She does sound miserably unhappy, but also extremely manipulative, with

BPD/Nism leaking out all over the place. Her message really packs an emotional

wallop doesn't it? If I were in your shoes, that message would have knocked me

right out of them! There is really no answer to a message like that..other than

what you did...calling in mental health professionals.

> >

> > I don't like my nada either. I haven't liked her since I was 4 years old. I

remember thinking about it when I was little...how much I disliked/hated her.

Why would I " like " someone that abused me...that I was afraid of, that was

deliberately cruel to me? At times she acted " loving " , sort of, in her odd

little nada way. Maybe acting that way suited her needs, and that's what it was

about.

> >

> > Yes, I was bonded to her...one of the wise folks here wrote once that all

children bond to their parents. Until about a year ago, I was bonded to her in a

Stockholm syndrome/trauma bond sort of way.

> >

> > But that's not love either is it? N-ists just see people as extensions of

themselves or as possessions... " my arm " " my house " " my daughter " ...isn't that

the antithesis of love?

> >

> > I have had to face the fact that I don't love nada, and she doesn't/can't

(really) love me. I care about what happens to her. But it is nothing like the

love relationships I have with my husband and adult children...even my good

friends. I have also had to face the fact that contact with nada makes me sick.

Literally sick. I got to the point where I had to put on my own parachute and

bail out of the relationship, as it was heading down, and I had to leave nada

behind and save my own life. I still deal with the guilt and all the rest of it,

but it's gotten better in the last few months.

> >

> > You sound like a very intelligent, insightful person. I hope that support

here is helpful to you in figuring out the what-to-do part of dealing with a

mother with untreated BPD/NPD.

> >

> > P.S. I believe that Randi calls the BPD/NPD combo " border-lions " and that

they are doubly hard to deal with. Another good resource is the book

Understanding the Borderline Mother by Ann Lawson. My copy is nearly

worn out. I picked this book up every time I got lost in the fog of fear,

obligation, and guilt.

> >

> > For me, the signposts showing the way out have been groups like this, books,

therapy, journaling, and supportive friends.

> >

> > Thanks for your posts..we benefit from your thoughts and experience too...it

goes both ways.

> >

> > Kate aka Rusty Tiara

> > >

> >

> >

> > > Thanks Katrina for that fast reply. I'm trying to figure out how my

nada's condition is different from NPD. I read 'malignant self love' a few

years ago and that fit pretty well. But there was that whole issue of love and

feeling. The question was if she could feel love or empathy. Narcissists

can't, I think. But narcissists are supposed to be pretty high functioning,

which she isn't. Then there's the hypochondriac/Munchausen's thing. She's

nearly died multiple times of infections that were preventable/treatable early

on. If she doesn't love me and doesn't need me (other than to fulfill her

emotional and tangible needs) then I can finally cut myself free and live my

life guilty free. But the thought of abandoning someone who, deep down, loves

me very much and would be devastated if I abandoned her, hurts me. I think about

my husband or father leaving me. I wouldn't be able to take it. I fear she

could kill herself if I did that. My father assures me that my mother is a

narcissist, and narcissists typically are unwilling to kill themselves, despite

their threats.

> > >

> > > I know that any problem in your life that affects your day-to-day quality

of life is a big problem. Something that needs to be fixed. If depression

keeps you from leaving the house, you need medical help. If your ACL is torn

and keeps you from running, walking, biking-doing what you love-it might be time

to consider surgery. And yet, my 'Aha' moment is slow to come. My quality of

life from having a relationship with her is so poor (just for the immediate time

before-during-after visits/phone calls) that you'd think I would just " get it. "

But she's my mom. And I feel sorry for her. If I had her life, I'd kill

myself. She's all alone. No one listens to her. She's about to be kicked out

of her apartment and be institutionalized (more because of her financial issues

then mental issues.) Although her financial issues are a direct result of her

mental issues. It's so hard to walk away from it. If this were my father, I'd

sell a kidney to help him. I'd move him right into my house to take care of him

if he needed me to. But with her, I can't even lift a finger to call... I

really feel like a horrible person sometimes. The rational me knows I'm not

horrible. But the daughter in me tucks her tail between her legs and says, " I

could do more for her. "

> > >

> > > Now I'm NC for the first time in years and wonder if that was maybe

overkill for the message she left? But the message just shows that in 30 years,

nothing's changed. Do I really want to be 50 years old and still be told that

I'm ingrateful and selfish? That I need to give away more of my soul? How much

of my soul is enough?

> > >

> > > The other issue, of course, is that I think I hate her. I really do. And

I can't hide it when I'm with her. I can plaster a smile on my face and buy her

stuff and have a meal with her, but it's excruciating. I feel like she only

sees me as a taxicab and a credit card. I don't want anything bad to happen to

her, but I can't stand her! From the message you can see that when I'm with

her, it shows. (obligation, easing my conscience, etc) I joined this group in

the hopes that I could better understand how to relate to her and talk to her

and keep my guard up to keep from getting hurt. But the more stories I read, it

looks like that's not going to end well for me. But going NC without

explanation seems disrespectful since she doesn't even know that she crossed the

line. Yet how can I explain why I went NC? There's no explaining it! So I'm

endlessly confused and sitting on the face as day by day goes by. Failing to

commit one way or the other as to when/if I'll talk to her again. I suspect

I'll probably make up with her for Thanksgiving and Christmas, then wait until

her birthday to have anything to do with her again.

> > >

> > > Drama, drama, drama. No other part of my life has drama. I'm very

happily married. I have a good job and steady income (as does my husband). I

have a good relationship with siblings. Life is so easy without her. I'm

enjoying my vacation from the weekly hourlong rants about why life is so

horrible. I'm milking this vacation for all it's worth.

> > >

> > > Thanks for listening for the long haul. I know these are long posts. 30

years of conflicted thoughts take some time to work through!

> > >

> > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Here's a trick that might help: Say a pleasant hello, but then don't be the

first to say anything else. Let her talk, and you wait a couple of beats

(gather your thoughts, breathe deep) before you start talking. Sometimes, we

get so focused on what we're going to say next that the old scripts and

arguments just play themselves. If you wait a second or two before responding,

she may continue to blather just to fill in the silence. Try to be a little

more still (physically - stand still) and simply react. Don't be the

instigator. If she gets abusive, you'll be in a calmer state and more able to

get your car keys and leave. -

> >

> > If she

> > > doesn't love me and doesn't need me (other than to fulfill her emotional

and

> > > tangible needs) then I can finally cut myself free and live my life guilty

> > > free. But the thought of abandoning someone who, deep down, loves me very

much

> > > and would be devastated if I abandoned her, hurts me. I think about my

husband

> > > or father leaving me. I wouldn't be able to take it. I fear she could

kill

> > > herself if I did that.

> >

> > If you were willing not to abandon her if her actions changed, then it isn't

abandonment at all. You are just protecting yourself. Just back off-you don't

have to go all or nothing with her, just back off when she flips out.

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks ! Good advice! I think reading all your responses and talking to

all of you has made me much stronger and more confident. I think I'd rather

focus more on improving my own mannerisms that are a result of being raised by a

BP rather than worrying about my relationship (or lack there-of) with nada. I

can help break the cycle with the next generation that way. I want my children

to learn that love doesn't have to be conditional. I want my children to

actually remember their childhood! (I don't remember much of mine, and can't

recall any happy memories with nada...)

So my energy now is back on me, and that will help others around me feel valued

and loved.

Baby steps, right?

>

>

> Jen - you asked about having kids. Many of us here got real serious about

fending off our Nadas when we realized they were doing to our kids what they'd

done to us. I wouldn't worry about it too much - you are already miles ahead of

where many of us were when we had kids. You've identified the problem and and

know what you have to do. The only hard part is the DOING. Many of us limit

contact, never leave our kids unsupervised with our Nadas, find other

grandparent substitutes, figure out how to tell our children - diplomatically -

why they don't go see Granny very often. It's all doable. Of course, you want

to be sure you live on the other side of the continent and that you never have

to depend on Nada for anything... I'm kidding (sort of) - distance really will

make it easier to keep GrandNada from dropping by to see " her " precious

grandbaby (and driving you crazy).

>

> But don't let Nada keep you from doing what you NEED to do in your life -

whether it's getting an education, getting married, having kids (or deciding not

to), changing careers, or moving away. Even though she's your mom, she

shouldn't have that kind of power - and it's not like you're going to get extra

credit with her if you follow her rules. You might as well live your life the

way you want to.

>

> >

>

[Guest guest]

That's perfect! That's kind of what I was thinking of doing. I'd rather

pretend the message never happened at all and just move on. What good could

possibly come from talking about it? I hope it doesn't come up! I like your

trick and will put it into practice, but think I'll wait for a month or two.

> > >

> > > If she

> > > > doesn't love me and doesn't need me (other than to fulfill her emotional

and

> > > > tangible needs) then I can finally cut myself free and live my life

guilty

> > > > free. But the thought of abandoning someone who, deep down, loves me

very much

> > > > and would be devastated if I abandoned her, hurts me. I think about my

husband

> > > > or father leaving me. I wouldn't be able to take it. I fear she could

kill

> > > > herself if I did that.

> > >

> > > If you were willing not to abandon her if her actions changed, then it

isn't abandonment at all. You are just protecting yourself. Just back off-you

don't have to go all or nothing with her, just back off when she flips out.

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Jen,

I'm a little late to this discussion, but I think Katrina said it very well. My

nada is definitely both a NP and BP. I think she believes she feels love, but

it is really more attachment/possession and how things affect her. She does not

truly understand or feel the concept of selfless or unconditional love, because

as Katrina said,

" They care about others because others have the ability to affect their lives.

Maybe what I'm trying to say is that they care about what others do rather than

about them as individual people. "

Recent example: My nada is in a care home, and brother2 lives closest so has

taken care of some of her personal needs and laundry (the care home laundry

isn't good enough, of course). Brother is on 100% disability to start, and he's

recently been very sick with the swine flu (relapsed) and she went on and on

about how worried she was about him " couldn't sleep for nights because I

couldn't do anything for him... " . Right. Then she slipped up and complained

about having no clean underwear.

I think PDs do feel things - pain, anger, humor, happiness, sadness, what they

believe is love, etc. Whatever they do feel - it is always at one extreme or

another. They are overly sensitive, yet due to their " emotional disregulation "

their emotions rarely are appropriate to the occasion or event that " inspires "

them. I think the description that PD's are the " emotional equivalent of a burn

victim - they have no emotional skin " conveys that very well. It's just another

weird aspect of this illness - the exquisite sensitivity to everything " done " to

them, yet no sensitivity for what they inflict upon others. Sigh.

Suzy

[Guest guest]

Jen,

I think there are definitely degrees along a continuum. My nada was never

sadistic or physically abusive, and I think she did well enough for a single

mother with four young kids (thanks in large part to living next door to my

grandparents). She had issues then - depression and a few suicide attempts

(more for attention than serious threat), but she did mostly take care of us. I

was always her confidente/helper (I now understand inappropriately so), so was

never really a little girl. She always had someone to " depend " on, so things

started to drastically change when I left home and she lost her last means of

support.

She got progressively worse over time, more emotionally and financially needy,

all the while becoming more and more manipulative and nasty and verbally

abusive. She began to completely project her behaviors and feelings onto others

until we all felt mind warped. She used to reserve her " special " side just for

family, but over time the the veneer has been stripped away and all her

craziness is laid out for everyone to see. She even brags about not caring who

she makes angry, all the while still playing the role of victim. Now, very few

people will have anything to do with her (save the care home staff). None of us

kids have gone NC, but very LC save one brother who lives nearby and attends to

her needs (outside of nursing home care).

I know that, personally, I will not likely go NC. I have established firm

enough boundaries that I don't tolerate her attempts at FOG or abusive talk to

me or about family. I've come to terms with what she is - and isn't, and now

just try to manage how I respond. I'm not perfect -- she can still push my

buttons at times -- but I'm world's better than before I became aware of PDs

(and went through therapy and joined this group). I feel that she is a mentally

ill parent, and as such I want to ensure that she does at least receive proper

care. I don't truly know what I feel for her beyond that, but I have no

feelings of affection left. When I visit (a couple times a year), I do the

" caretaker " thing, but in my head I'm doing what I would for any elderly person

in her situation. It's a " volunteer " mindset I assume, and it helps me deal

with it.

However, I have not suffered what many in this group have at their nada's/fada's

hands, and were that different, I suspect I would have no qualms about walking

away and never looking back. It's an individual choice. There is no right

answer. It's never easy, no matter what, but I think it is possible to live with

whatever choice you make - and move forward.

Suzy

[Guest guest]

There ya go. Breaking the cycle is the best gift you can give future

generations - your kids and anybody else's! -

> >

> >

> > Jen - you asked about having kids. Many of us here got real serious about

fending off our Nadas when we realized they were doing to our kids what they'd

done to us. I wouldn't worry about it too much - you are already miles ahead of

where many of us were when we had kids. You've identified the problem and and

know what you have to do. The only hard part is the DOING. Many of us limit

contact, never leave our kids unsupervised with our Nadas, find other

grandparent substitutes, figure out how to tell our children - diplomatically -

why they don't go see Granny very often. It's all doable. Of course, you want

to be sure you live on the other side of the continent and that you never have

to depend on Nada for anything... I'm kidding (sort of) - distance really will

make it easier to keep GrandNada from dropping by to see " her " precious

grandbaby (and driving you crazy).

> >

> > But don't let Nada keep you from doing what you NEED to do in your life -

whether it's getting an education, getting married, having kids (or deciding not

to), changing careers, or moving away. Even though she's your mom, she

shouldn't have that kind of power - and it's not like you're going to get extra

credit with her if you follow her rules. You might as well live your life the

way you want to.

> >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Suzy,

I suspect that you and I may have the closest comparison as far as cases go.

Your situation and mine sound extremely similar. You mentioned that your mother

was emotionally and financially needy. What/how have you established boundaries

when she " vents " all of her health (mental and physical) issues to you? My mom

was calling so often leaving long crying messages on my voicemail that would

literally go on so long I thought I was having a conversation with her. But she

is currently living independently and I don't know how much longer she will be

able to do this. What is this " care home " thing you mentioned? Who manages

your mother's finances? I am unwilling to be a payee for my mother at this

point. I think the obligations there are too high-too much forced contact.

I have often thought of my visits and the things I buy for my mother as more of

community service than anything else. That mindset does help some. I would

just like to hear more, when you can share, about how you have established this

relationship and maybe more about your mother's care situation.

My mother has failed to pay her bills/rent in several months. She is able to

dig just far enough out to keep from being " evicted. " She is in a low-income

apartment building for mentally/physically (both combined, I believe) people

that want to remain independent. She is apparently receiving more aid from home

care workers than any other residencts in the building. There are

schizophrenics and quadriplegics receiving less assistance than my mother.

She has a hospital bed in her room instead of a regular bed, but still falls out

of it about once a month. Last night she fell out of it and pulled the TV on

top of her on accident. She couldn't get out from under the TV and had to call

her Life Alert system to get help. I didn't call her, but unfortunately I'm her

lifeline (need to change that) so I'm the first to be contacted in an emergency.

She's fine and didn't have to go to the hospital, but paramedics had to go and

get the TV off of her and get her off the floor. When she falls, she is unable

to get off the floor.

From this apartment, she has no choice but to go to a nursing home. She's only

56! She looks about 70 and has health problems of a 90 year old women. This is

insanity! But I won't go there... I just wanted to know a little more about

your mother, if you don't mind sharing. My mother is on SSI (?) and that gives

her about $750 a month. $200 goes to rent. Food stamps cover most food but not

toiletries. A lot of her money goes to co-pays for her scripts and bandages.

She has cellulitis and frequent spells with C-diff and MRSA.

Tell me a little more about your mom, when you can, if you don't mind.

My first therapy session is Thursday morning. I hope to start getting to where

you are now. I would like to know what is going on with my mom, but my

emotional skin is unfortunately thin too and I need some help with that. Then

maybe I could handle a little more of her without getting angry and frustrated

and not give in when she asks for things I don't want to give.

Thanks Suzy,

Jen

>

> Jen,

>

> I think there are definitely degrees along a continuum. My nada was never

sadistic or physically abusive, and I think she did well enough for a single

mother with four young kids (thanks in large part to living next door to my

grandparents). She had issues then - depression and a few suicide attempts

(more for attention than serious threat), but she did mostly take care of us. I

was always her confidente/helper (I now understand inappropriately so), so was

never really a little girl. She always had someone to " depend " on, so things

started to drastically change when I left home and she lost her last means of

support.

>

> She got progressively worse over time, more emotionally and financially needy,

all the while becoming more and more manipulative and nasty and verbally

abusive. She began to completely project her behaviors and feelings onto others

until we all felt mind warped. She used to reserve her " special " side just for

family, but over time the the veneer has been stripped away and all her

craziness is laid out for everyone to see. She even brags about not caring who

she makes angry, all the while still playing the role of victim. Now, very few

people will have anything to do with her (save the care home staff). None of us

kids have gone NC, but very LC save one brother who lives nearby and attends to

her needs (outside of nursing home care).

>

> I know that, personally, I will not likely go NC. I have established firm

enough boundaries that I don't tolerate her attempts at FOG or abusive talk to

me or about family. I've come to terms with what she is - and isn't, and now

just try to manage how I respond. I'm not perfect -- she can still push my

buttons at times -- but I'm world's better than before I became aware of PDs

(and went through therapy and joined this group). I feel that she is a mentally

ill parent, and as such I want to ensure that she does at least receive proper

care. I don't truly know what I feel for her beyond that, but I have no

feelings of affection left. When I visit (a couple times a year), I do the

" caretaker " thing, but in my head I'm doing what I would for any elderly person

in her situation. It's a " volunteer " mindset I assume, and it helps me deal

with it.

>

> However, I have not suffered what many in this group have at their

nada's/fada's hands, and were that different, I suspect I would have no qualms

about walking away and never looking back. It's an individual choice. There is

no right answer. It's never easy, no matter what, but I think it is possible to

live with whatever choice you make - and move forward.

>

> Suzy

>