Re: What do nadas feel? Do they love?

[Guest guest]

Jen,

You ask if they feel love. My opinion on that is that they're

just not capable of even understanding what love is, much less

feeling it. I don't think their brains are wired in a way that

lets them feel love from or for anyone else. I'm not even

convinced that they can feel love for themselves. My nada claims

to love various people, but I can tell from discussing my

relationships with her that she just doesn't get it. She could

never understand the idea that I might choose to stay home and

not do something I wanted to do because the man I loved didn't

feel up to going out and just wanted to come by and spend time

with me at home. She couldn't understand why I would put up with

the problems caused by his health issues. She thought I stop

seeing him because he didn't always do what I wanted to do when

I wanted to do it. To her, that meant he didn't love me. The

whole idea of making a choice for the benefit of a loved one

rather than myself is something she has never been able to grasp

- not with her husbands and boyfriends and not with her

children. If you can't understand that, how can you claim to

love someone?

I think they care about others to some extent, but not ifor the

right reasons. They care about others because others have the

ability to affect their lives. Maybe what I'm trying to say is

that they care about what others do rather than about them as

individual people. My nada tells me that she loves my sister and

misses her. In my opinion, what she misses is the fact that my

sister did all the house and yard work when she was here, and

now nada lives alone and has to do her chores herself. It isn't

going to matter how many times she tells me to tell my sister

she's sorry. Neither of us believe she is actually sorry for the

things that caused my sister to go NC. I'm equally sure that she

is sorry for the results though.

I think NC and reporting it to the social worker was a good

response to the phone message your nada left for you. It sounds

like a suicide threat to me and those should never be ignored.

They also shouldn't be rewarded. They can't be allowed to use

suicide threats to make us do what they want.

At 06:31 PM 10/03/2009 jeh017 wrote:

>I've read the book 'Stop Walking on Eggshells' and 'Surviving a

>Borderline Parent.' They both tend to talk about how depressed

>and miserably unhappy BPDs are and how we should empathize with

>them because their fear of abandonment is so severe. So I've

>tried to better understand and love my nada knowing her pain is

>deeper than anything I could ever imagine. I try to imagine

>constantly feeling self-loathing and intense loneliness like

>the book suggests she feels.

>

>But when I read all of your posts, it seems that these BPs

>don't care about anything but having their needs met. So I

>wanted your opinion on a voicemail that she left me a month

>ago. I want to get your impression of whether she actually

>gives a d%$# about anyone besides herself. This is why it's

>been so hard for me to deal with her. I keep coming back to

>her because of her FOG. But is that simply a tool for

>manipulation? I guess I wonder whether she ever really loved

>me at all. All of your posts seem to describe more than

>someone with BPD. It seems like they're NPD! But I certainly

>don't know, just wondering.

>

>This email was left on my cellphone 2 days after we had a 2

>hour visit with her, complete with a trip to dinner (our treat)

>and the bookstore, where we bought her a book since she had no

>money. We were traveling through and it was late and needed to

>get to my in-laws early enough that we could see them before

>they went to bed.

>

> " it's mom. I hope you can hear me …….(this is a

>cell phone voicemail-which I've told her many times. No, I

>can't hear her) I'm not going to be …here anymore. You said

>this is not an option. Well, this is the only option,

>. I can't go on like this. You know… so, you were in

>such a hurry to get out of here Thursday. I don't know what a

>hold Debbie Emo (MIL) has on you. You were in such a hurry to

>get down there. Sigh…What is it? You didn't even tell me she

>was going to have a garage sale. There are so many things that

>I could use, so many things I need… Like being part of a

>family instead of being shoved in a closet for months and

>months like I just exist. This place looks the same as it did

>last year. Nothing's been done. It's like…It's like you're

>just keeping me here until I…until I do die. Until something

>happens to me. I know you don't like to talk to me when I'm

>like this. You only reward good behavior. Well I'm not an

>animal. I'm not Pavlov's dog which rewards good behavior. I'm

>human. I'm not one of your dogs. I'm human and I'm

>hurting. I'm so sad. I'm so sad. Because you don't want

>me. You're just performing a duty to ease your conscience,

>like taking me out to eat and you were in such a hurry to get

>out of here that night. Uh, what was it that you had to do

>that you were in such a hurry? You were here for just 2 hours

>exactly and then you called her on your phone to tell her when

>you were coming and saying " we've got to get there. Did she

>call? " When she says jump,and you say " How high? " I won't

>take being left alone here on the holidays. Things have to

>change. Or, uh,you're gonna be… you'll have one less relative

>to buy a Christmas present for. I mean it. And I can do it.

>And I can't do this though. This is the only option. Bye. "

>

>I haven't talked to her since this phone call. It's been over

>a month. I reported her to her social worker so they would

>keep an eye on her... She's made no serious attempts but was

>hospitalized for 5 days after this message for psychiatric

>reasons.

>

>Thanks for any thoughts,

>

>Jen

--

Katrina

[Guest guest]

my nada sounds very much like yours. She tries the guilt trips,

which do NOT work on me because I detached from her emotionally when I

was 9. My nada is a heartless b*tch who whines and complains about how

she should just die (in a vain effort for attention.) The ONLY reason

that I have ANY contact with her is because I have a young child now,

who doesn't want to see her either BTW. No, her behavior does not

indicate anything more than selfishness and love is NOT selfish like

this. It is all about them. I know because I was married to a BP/APD

" man " for nearly 7 years and he totally objectified me and our young

son - that is NOT love in any form - it is just using people for their

" needs " , entertainment, etc. I want no contact with my PD'd ex and have

managed to accomplish that for the last month and a half because he is

suing me to try to gain more access to abuse our child some more (or,

as my T suggests, he is just using this threat to get at me.) So, all

contact currently goes through our attorneys and that has worked out

best for all of us.

What

do they feel? They feel entitlement to use us to meet their " needs " .

They feel needy and desperate for attention. They feel that some of us

are no more than an extension of themselves so they don't understand

why we don't want the same things that they want. There is no love in

any of that. In order to love, they'd have to step outside of

themselves and do things for others without expecting something in

return or having an ulterior motive. They can't do that nor do they

understand that concept. They truly are emotional vampires.

[Guest guest]

Its sad, but no, personally I don't think that those with bpd experience the

emotion of love the same way that most people do. I don't think they can.

Big components of love are empathy and self-sacrifice (as demonstrated in O.

Henry's short story " the Gift of the Magi " in which a poor husband and wife each

sell their own most beloved treasure to buy their spouse a special Christmas

present.) But the " Cluster B " pd group can only experience concern and caring

(or " love " ) for themselves. They are pathologically self-absorbed.

To a person with personality disorder other people are just objects without

their own needs and feelings, and their children are merely extensions of their

own self; under such conditions a normal relationship of mutual and equal

caring, trust, concern, and empathy isn't possible. The relationship is more

like a one-way street in which all the effort, caring and benefits are directed

toward nada.

I personally think that the whining, tears, tantrums and FOG are all

manipulations bent on getting the bpd's needs met *no matter what*, even if it

means *hurting* their loved ones, and that's not love, in my book.

-Annie

>

> I've read the book 'Stop Walking on Eggshells' and 'Surviving a Borderline

Parent.' They both tend to talk about how depressed and miserably unhappy BPDs

are and how we should empathize with them because their fear of abandonment is

so severe. So I've tried to better understand and love my nada knowing her pain

is deeper than anything I could ever imagine. I try to imagine constantly

feeling self-loathing and intense loneliness like the book suggests she feels.

>

> But when I read all of your posts, it seems that these BPs don't care about

anything but having their needs met. So I wanted your opinion on a voicemail

that she left me a month ago. I want to get your impression of whether she

actually gives a d%$# about anyone besides herself. This is why it's been so

hard for me to deal with her. I keep coming back to her because of her FOG.

But is that simply a tool for manipulation? I guess I wonder whether she ever

really loved me at all. All of your posts seem to describe more than someone

with BPD. It seems like they're NPD! But I certainly don't know, just

wondering.

>

> This email was left on my cellphone 2 days after we had a 2 hour visit with

her, complete with a trip to dinner (our treat) and the bookstore, where we

bought her a book since she had no money. We were traveling through and it was

late and needed to get to my in-laws early enough that we could see them before

they went to bed.

>

> " it's mom. I hope you can hear me …….(this is a cell phone

voicemail-which I've told her many times. No, I can't hear her) I'm not going

to be …here anymore. You said this is not an option. Well, this is the only

option, . I can't go on like this. You know… so, you were in such a

hurry to get out of here Thursday. I don't know what a hold Debbie Emo (MIL)

has on you. You were in such a hurry to get down there. Sigh…What is it? You

didn't even tell me she was going to have a garage sale. There are so many

things that I could use, so many things I need… Like being part of a family

instead of being shoved in a closet for months and months like I just exist.

This place looks the same as it did last year. Nothing's been done. It's

like…It's like you're just keeping me here until I…until I do die. Until

something happens to me. I know you don't like to talk to me when I'm like

this. You only reward good behavior. Well I'm not an animal. I'm not

Pavlov's dog which rewards good behavior. I'm human. I'm not one of your dogs.

I'm human and I'm hurting. I'm so sad. I'm so sad. Because you don't want me.

You're just performing a duty to ease your conscience, like taking me out to eat

and you were in such a hurry to get out of here that night. Uh, what was it

that you had to do that you were in such a hurry? You were here for just 2

hours exactly and then you called her on your phone to tell her when you were

coming and saying " we've got to get there. Did she call? " When she says

jump,and you say " How high? " I won't take being left alone here on the

holidays. Things have to change. Or, uh,you're gonna be… you'll have one less

relative to buy a Christmas present for. I mean it. And I can do it. And I

can't do this though. This is the only option. Bye. "

>

> I haven't talked to her since this phone call. It's been over a month. I

reported her to her social worker so they would keep an eye on her... She's

made no serious attempts but was hospitalized for 5 days after this message for

psychiatric reasons.

>

> Thanks for any thoughts,

>

> Jen

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks Katrina for that fast reply. I'm trying to figure out how my nada's

condition is different from NPD. I read 'malignant self love' a few years ago

and that fit pretty well. But there was that whole issue of love and feeling.

The question was if she could feel love or empathy. Narcissists can't, I think.

But narcissists are supposed to be pretty high functioning, which she isn't.

Then there's the hypochondriac/Munchausen's thing. She's nearly died multiple

times of infections that were preventable/treatable early on. If she doesn't

love me and doesn't need me (other than to fulfill her emotional and tangible

needs) then I can finally cut myself free and live my life guilty free. But the

thought of abandoning someone who, deep down, loves me very much and would be

devastated if I abandoned her, hurts me. I think about my husband or father

leaving me. I wouldn't be able to take it. I fear she could kill herself if I

did that. My father assures me that my mother is a narcissist, and narcissists

typically are unwilling to kill themselves, despite their threats.

I know that any problem in your life that affects your day-to-day quality of

life is a big problem. Something that needs to be fixed. If depression keeps

you from leaving the house, you need medical help. If your ACL is torn and

keeps you from running, walking, biking-doing what you love-it might be time to

consider surgery. And yet, my 'Aha' moment is slow to come. My quality of life

from having a relationship with her is so poor (just for the immediate time

before-during-after visits/phone calls) that you'd think I would just " get it. "

But she's my mom. And I feel sorry for her. If I had her life, I'd kill

myself. She's all alone. No one listens to her. She's about to be kicked out

of her apartment and be institutionalized (more because of her financial issues

then mental issues.) Although her financial issues are a direct result of her

mental issues. It's so hard to walk away from it. If this were my father, I'd

sell a kidney to help him. I'd move him right into my house to take care of him

if he needed me to. But with her, I can't even lift a finger to call... I

really feel like a horrible person sometimes. The rational me knows I'm not

horrible. But the daughter in me tucks her tail between her legs and says, " I

could do more for her. "

Now I'm NC for the first time in years and wonder if that was maybe overkill for

the message she left? But the message just shows that in 30 years, nothing's

changed. Do I really want to be 50 years old and still be told that I'm

ingrateful and selfish? That I need to give away more of my soul? How much of

my soul is enough?

The other issue, of course, is that I think I hate her. I really do. And I

can't hide it when I'm with her. I can plaster a smile on my face and buy her

stuff and have a meal with her, but it's excruciating. I feel like she only

sees me as a taxicab and a credit card. I don't want anything bad to happen to

her, but I can't stand her! From the message you can see that when I'm with

her, it shows. (obligation, easing my conscience, etc) I joined this group in

the hopes that I could better understand how to relate to her and talk to her

and keep my guard up to keep from getting hurt. But the more stories I read, it

looks like that's not going to end well for me. But going NC without

explanation seems disrespectful since she doesn't even know that she crossed the

line. Yet how can I explain why I went NC? There's no explaining it! So I'm

endlessly confused and sitting on the face as day by day goes by. Failing to

commit one way or the other as to when/if I'll talk to her again. I suspect

I'll probably make up with her for Thanksgiving and Christmas, then wait until

her birthday to have anything to do with her again.

Drama, drama, drama. No other part of my life has drama. I'm very happily

married. I have a good job and steady income (as does my husband). I have a

good relationship with siblings. Life is so easy without her. I'm enjoying my

vacation from the weekly hourlong rants about why life is so horrible. I'm

milking this vacation for all it's worth.

Thanks for listening for the long haul. I know these are long posts. 30 years

of conflicted thoughts take some time to work through!

>

[Guest guest]

Everyone is saying about the same thing. I think my face is white right now and

I have tears running down my cheeks as I think about all the examples of how

what you say is true. When does that little voice inside of me go away that

says, " but what if you're wrong? what if she DOES love you? "

After buying into her BS for soooooooooooo looooooooong, it's really hard

to....I don't know. 'believe it' isn't the right word. I guess 'accept it.' is

a better way to put it. And if I can't accept it, I can't adopt this belief as

true FOR ME.

Are there different grades of BPD? Some aren't as bad as others? But we just

all have the rough ones? She never hit me. She never poisoned me. But she

never did things for me either. When she was destitute, I asked her to get me a

small $2 bottle of hand lotion I could keep in my purse knowing she could get it

at the pharmacy where she goes all the time. She could even regift lotion she

already had. Just to show she cared. But when I brought $300 of gifts for her

for Christmas (winter coat, bookshelves, cosmetics, books, etc), she didn't even

give me a card. She said she hadn't been able to go out because she'd been

sick. She likes to do crafts a lot and I've seen her making these bookmarks and

greeting cards. For my birthday (she asked what I wanted) I asked for a

bookmark since I read a lot. It's been about 9 months and I never got it. She

could have made it in 10 minutes. She always remembers my birthday though. She

calls to tell me happy birthday and she's nice about it that day. What does

this mean? Anything?

I'm slowly learning what I've known all along, but it's hard.

Thanks,

Jen

> >

> > I've read the book 'Stop Walking on Eggshells' and 'Surviving a Borderline

Parent.' They both tend to talk about how depressed and miserably unhappy BPDs

are and how we should empathize with them because their fear of abandonment is

so severe. So I've tried to better understand and love my nada knowing her pain

is deeper than anything I could ever imagine. I try to imagine constantly

feeling self-loathing and intense loneliness like the book suggests she feels.

> >

> > But when I read all of your posts, it seems that these BPs don't care about

anything but having their needs met. So I wanted your opinion on a voicemail

that she left me a month ago. I want to get your impression of whether she

actually gives a d%$# about anyone besides herself. This is why it's been so

hard for me to deal with her. I keep coming back to her because of her FOG.

But is that simply a tool for manipulation? I guess I wonder whether she ever

really loved me at all. All of your posts seem to describe more than someone

with BPD. It seems like they're NPD! But I certainly don't know, just

wondering.

> >

> > This email was left on my cellphone 2 days after we had a 2 hour visit with

her, complete with a trip to dinner (our treat) and the bookstore, where we

bought her a book since she had no money. We were traveling through and it was

late and needed to get to my in-laws early enough that we could see them before

they went to bed.

> >

> > " it's mom. I hope you can hear me …….(this is a cell phone

voicemail-which I've told her many times. No, I can't hear her) I'm not going

to be …here anymore. You said this is not an option. Well, this is the only

option, . I can't go on like this. You know… so, you were in such a

hurry to get out of here Thursday. I don't know what a hold Debbie Emo (MIL)

has on you. You were in such a hurry to get down there. Sigh…What is it? You

didn't even tell me she was going to have a garage sale. There are so many

things that I could use, so many things I need… Like being part of a family

instead of being shoved in a closet for months and months like I just exist.

This place looks the same as it did last year. Nothing's been done. It's

like…It's like you're just keeping me here until I…until I do die. Until

something happens to me. I know you don't like to talk to me when I'm like

this. You only reward good behavior. Well I'm not an animal. I'm not

Pavlov's dog which rewards good behavior. I'm human. I'm not one of your dogs.

I'm human and I'm hurting. I'm so sad. I'm so sad. Because you don't want me.

You're just performing a duty to ease your conscience, like taking me out to eat

and you were in such a hurry to get out of here that night. Uh, what was it

that you had to do that you were in such a hurry? You were here for just 2

hours exactly and then you called her on your phone to tell her when you were

coming and saying " we've got to get there. Did she call? " When she says

jump,and you say " How high? " I won't take being left alone here on the

holidays. Things have to change. Or, uh,you're gonna be… you'll have one less

relative to buy a Christmas present for. I mean it. And I can do it. And I

can't do this though. This is the only option. Bye. "

> >

> > I haven't talked to her since this phone call. It's been over a month. I

reported her to her social worker so they would keep an eye on her... She's

made no serious attempts but was hospitalized for 5 days after this message for

psychiatric reasons.

> >

> > Thanks for any thoughts,

> >

> > Jen

> >

>

[Guest guest]

jennifer,

I am sorry if this sounds cruel to you but if this were my nada (who has been

cruel to me my entire life) then I would go NC if at all possible. If not for my

son and no other support system then I would have no contact with her now. She

deserves no explanation, she will make up whatever excuse she wants no matter

what you tell her - it will never be her fault in her mind. If she is that

unhealthy for you then you have to take care of yourself first, she is an adult

who made her choices. We do not automatically owe people our lives just because

they happen to be related by blood or donated DNA to produce us. Abusers do not

respond to reason (I had to learn this the hard way with my PD'd ex hubby) and

they do not understand kindness or love. They just take and take and take until

you are an empty husk and then they move on to another host organism. If they

can't bleed you dry then they just suck as they are able and take what they can,

their host never

dries out so they provide an endless supply. They are not like us, they don't

think like us or feel like us. PD's just give me that " ick " feeling and all I

want to do is walk away, blood relatives are not entitled to abuse or use me any

more than strangers are. This is how I feel for my son too - I don't want him to

feel obligated to care for or become host for an emotional vampire... no matter

the source of the vampirism. If people abuse us, we should be entitled to remove

them from our lives. If people are unhealthy for us, we don't need them around.

No drama, no abuse, no unecessary suffering.

________________________________

To: WTOAdultChildren1

Sent: Saturday, October 3, 2009 8:18:18 PM

Subject: Re: What do nadas feel? Do they love?

Thanks Katrina for that fast reply. I'm trying to figure out how my nada's

condition is different from NPD. I read 'malignant self love' a few years ago

and that fit pretty well. But there was that whole issue of love and feeling.

The question was if she could feel love or empathy. Narcissists can't, I think.

But narcissists are supposed to be pretty high functioning, which she isn't.

Then there's the hypochondriac/ Munchausen' s thing. She's nearly died multiple

times of infections that were preventable/ treatable early on. If she doesn't

love me and doesn't need me (other than to fulfill her emotional and tangible

needs) then I can finally cut myself free and live my life guilty free. But the

thought of abandoning someone who, deep down, loves me very much and would be

devastated if I abandoned her, hurts me. I think about my husband or father

leaving me. I wouldn't be able to take it. I fear she could kill herself if I

did that. My father

assures me that my mother is a narcissist, and narcissists typically are

unwilling to kill themselves, despite their threats.

I know that any problem in your life that affects your day-to-day quality of

life is a big problem. Something that needs to be fixed. If depression keeps

you from leaving the house, you need medical help. If your ACL is torn and

keeps you from running, walking, biking-doing what you love-it might be time to

consider surgery. And yet, my 'Aha' moment is slow to come. My quality of life

from having a relationship with her is so poor (just for the immediate time

before-during- after visits/phone calls) that you'd think I would just " get it. "

But she's my mom. And I feel sorry for her. If I had her life, I'd kill

myself. She's all alone. No one listens to her. She's about to be kicked out

of her apartment and be institutionalized (more because of her financial issues

then mental issues.) Although her financial issues are a direct result of her

mental issues. It's so hard to walk away from it. If this were my father, I'd

sell a kidney to help

him. I'd move him right into my house to take care of him if he needed me to.

But with her, I can't even lift a finger to call... I really feel like a

horrible person sometimes. The rational me knows I'm not horrible. But the

daughter in me tucks her tail between her legs and says, " I could do more for

her. "

Now I'm NC for the first time in years and wonder if that was maybe overkill for

the message she left? But the message just shows that in 30 years, nothing's

changed. Do I really want to be 50 years old and still be told that I'm

ingrateful and selfish? That I need to give away more of my soul? How much of

my soul is enough?

The other issue, of course, is that I think I hate her. I really do. And I

can't hide it when I'm with her. I can plaster a smile on my face and buy her

stuff and have a meal with her, but it's excruciating. I feel like she only

sees me as a taxicab and a credit card. I don't want anything bad to happen to

her, but I can't stand her! From the message you can see that when I'm with

her, it shows. (obligation, easing my conscience, etc) I joined this group in

the hopes that I could better understand how to relate to her and talk to her

and keep my guard up to keep from getting hurt. But the more stories I read, it

looks like that's not going to end well for me. But going NC without

explanation seems disrespectful since she doesn't even know that she crossed the

line. Yet how can I explain why I went NC? There's no explaining it! So I'm

endlessly confused and sitting on the face as day by day goes by. Failing to

commit one way or the other as

to when/if I'll talk to her again. I suspect I'll probably make up with her

for Thanksgiving and Christmas, then wait until her birthday to have anything to

do with her again.

Drama, drama, drama. No other part of my life has drama. I'm very happily

married. I have a good job and steady income (as does my husband). I have a

good relationship with siblings. Life is so easy without her. I'm enjoying my

vacation from the weekly hourlong rants about why life is so horrible. I'm

milking this vacation for all it's worth.

Thanks for listening for the long haul. I know these are long posts. 30 years

of conflicted thoughts take some time to work through!

>

[Guest guest]

Thank you so much Annie. I've said a lot today! But I'm tring to wrap my head

around this. It's hard to believe in all this time that she never really loved

me at all. Although she certainly SHOWED that she never loved me at all! I

believed what she said, not what she did.

So perhaps I might be able to take comfort in knowing that she doesn't care if

her daughter abandons her or not since she never loved me in the first place.

And she'll just move on to the next sucker. Right? Unfortunately, that sucker

will be my grandpa (her dad). He's 83 and in poor health and he says he won't

give up on her, no matter what. He doesn't blame me one bit for being NC. But

he's not willing to do it.

Thanks again, Annie.

Jen

> >

> > I've read the book 'Stop Walking on Eggshells' and 'Surviving a Borderline

Parent.' They both tend to talk about how depressed and miserably unhappy BPDs

are and how we should empathize with them because their fear of abandonment is

so severe. So I've tried to better understand and love my nada knowing her pain

is deeper than anything I could ever imagine. I try to imagine constantly

feeling self-loathing and intense loneliness like the book suggests she feels.

> >

> > But when I read all of your posts, it seems that these BPs don't care about

anything but having their needs met. So I wanted your opinion on a voicemail

that she left me a month ago. I want to get your impression of whether she

actually gives a d%$# about anyone besides herself. This is why it's been so

hard for me to deal with her. I keep coming back to her because of her FOG.

But is that simply a tool for manipulation? I guess I wonder whether she ever

really loved me at all. All of your posts seem to describe more than someone

with BPD. It seems like they're NPD! But I certainly don't know, just

wondering.

> >

> > This email was left on my cellphone 2 days after we had a 2 hour visit with

her, complete with a trip to dinner (our treat) and the bookstore, where we

bought her a book since she had no money. We were traveling through and it was

late and needed to get to my in-laws early enough that we could see them before

they went to bed.

> >

> > " it's mom. I hope you can hear me …….(this is a cell phone

voicemail-which I've told her many times. No, I can't hear her) I'm not going

to be …here anymore. You said this is not an option. Well, this is the only

option, . I can't go on like this. You know… so, you were in such a

hurry to get out of here Thursday. I don't know what a hold Debbie Emo (MIL)

has on you. You were in such a hurry to get down there. Sigh…What is it? You

didn't even tell me she was going to have a garage sale. There are so many

things that I could use, so many things I need… Like being part of a family

instead of being shoved in a closet for months and months like I just exist.

This place looks the same as it did last year. Nothing's been done. It's

like…It's like you're just keeping me here until I…until I do die. Until

something happens to me. I know you don't like to talk to me when I'm like

this. You only reward good behavior. Well I'm not an animal. I'm not

Pavlov's dog which rewards good behavior. I'm human. I'm not one of your dogs.

I'm human and I'm hurting. I'm so sad. I'm so sad. Because you don't want me.

You're just performing a duty to ease your conscience, like taking me out to eat

and you were in such a hurry to get out of here that night. Uh, what was it

that you had to do that you were in such a hurry? You were here for just 2

hours exactly and then you called her on your phone to tell her when you were

coming and saying " we've got to get there. Did she call? " When she says

jump,and you say " How high? " I won't take being left alone here on the

holidays. Things have to change. Or, uh,you're gonna be… you'll have one less

relative to buy a Christmas present for. I mean it. And I can do it. And I

can't do this though. This is the only option. Bye. "

> >

> > I haven't talked to her since this phone call. It's been over a month. I

reported her to her social worker so they would keep an eye on her... She's

made no serious attempts but was hospitalized for 5 days after this message for

psychiatric reasons.

> >

> > Thanks for any thoughts,

> >

> > Jen

> >

>

[Guest guest]

yes, different degrees of PD's (some range the spectrum from APD to BPD, HPD,

NPD). Nada is about 10% as bad as PDexhubby. But no, she doesn't love me, she

never did. When I was about 8, I cried (because she treated me so badly) and

said " you don't love me " . Nada " sarcastically " agreed with me. If she HAD loved

me, she would not have done this. That, and a few other things she said when I

was 8 and 9 years old solidified the knowledge that she didn't love me. I even

stopped telling her that I loved her. I didn't seek her approval, I didn't think

of her as a mom at all because *I* was my own mom and I later became an

unwilling caretaker of her (I had to take over her finances when I was about 19

because she had made such a terrible mess that even the banks would not touch

her, she had been arrested for bad checks, etc.) I don't think that I expected

anyone to love me because of Nada. I was right about that until recently, my son

is the first person who

seems to genuinely love me. His father was deeply PD'd and even hated himself,

you can't really love others if you hate yourself. But this is why Nada's tears,

whining, suicide threats, etc only make me feel sick and resentful of her. She

never did a da**ed thing for me. I never had a childhood, not like other kids.

________________________________

To: WTOAdultChildren1

Sent: Saturday, October 3, 2009 8:33:31 PM

Subject: Re: What do nadas feel? Do they love?

Everyone is saying about the same thing. I think my face is white right now and

I have tears running down my cheeks as I think about all the examples of how

what you say is true. When does that little voice inside of me go away that

says, " but what if you're wrong? what if she DOES love you? "

After buying into her BS for soooooooooooo looooooooong, it's really hard

to....I don't know. 'believe it' isn't the right word. I guess 'accept it.' is

a better way to put it. And if I can't accept it, I can't adopt this belief as

true FOR ME.

Are there different grades of BPD? Some aren't as bad as others? But we just

all have the rough ones? She never hit me. She never poisoned me. But she

never did things for me either. When she was destitute, I asked her to get me a

small $2 bottle of hand lotion I could keep in my purse knowing she could get it

at the pharmacy where she goes all the time. She could even regift lotion she

already had. Just to show she cared. But when I brought $300 of gifts for her

for Christmas (winter coat, bookshelves, cosmetics, books, etc), she didn't even

give me a card. She said she hadn't been able to go out because she'd been

sick. She likes to do crafts a lot and I've seen her making these bookmarks and

greeting cards. For my birthday (she asked what I wanted) I asked for a

bookmark since I read a lot. It's been about 9 months and I never got it. She

could have made it in 10 minutes. She always remembers my birthday though. She

calls to tell me

happy birthday and she's nice about it that day. What does this mean?

Anything?

I'm slowly learning what I've known all along, but it's hard.

Thanks,

Jen

> >

> > I've read the book 'Stop Walking on Eggshells' and 'Surviving a Borderline

Parent.' They both tend to talk about how depressed and miserably unhappy BPDs

are and how we should empathize with them because their fear of abandonment is

so severe.. So I've tried to better understand and love my nada knowing her

pain is deeper than anything I could ever imagine. I try to imagine constantly

feeling self-loathing and intense loneliness like the book suggests she feels.

> >

> > But when I read all of your posts, it seems that these BPs don't care about

anything but having their needs met. So I wanted your opinion on a voicemail

that she left me a month ago. I want to get your impression of whether she

actually gives a d%$# about anyone besides herself. This is why it's been so

hard for me to deal with her. I keep coming back to her because of her FOG.

But is that simply a tool for manipulation? I guess I wonder whether she ever

really loved me at all. All of your posts seem to describe more than someone

with BPD. It seems like they're NPD! But I certainly don't know, just

wondering.

> >

> > This email was left on my cellphone 2 days after we had a 2 hour visit with

her, complete with a trip to dinner (our treat) and the bookstore, where we

bought her a book since she had no money. We were traveling through and it was

late and needed to get to my in-laws early enough that we could see them before

they went to bed.

> >

> > " it's mom. I hope you can hear me …….(this is a cell phone

voicemail-which I've told her many times.. No, I can't hear her) I'm not going

to be …here anymore. You said this is not an option. Well, this is the only

option, . I can't go on like this. You know… so, you were in such a

hurry to get out of here Thursday. I don't know what a hold Debbie Emo (MIL)

has on you. You were in such a hurry to get down there. Sigh…What is it?

You didn't even tell me she was going to have a garage sale. There are so many

things that I could use, so many things I need… Like being part of a family

instead of being shoved in a closet for months and months like I just exist.

This place looks the same as it did last year. Nothing's been done. It's

like…It's like you're just keeping me here until I…until I do die. Until

something happens to me. I know you don't like to talk to me when I'm like

this. You only reward good

behavior. Well I'm not an animal. I'm not Pavlov's dog which rewards good

behavior. I'm human. I'm not one of your dogs. I'm human and I'm hurting.

I'm so sad. I'm so sad. Because you don't want me. You're just performing a

duty to ease your conscience, like taking me out to eat and you were in such a

hurry to get out of here that night. Uh, what was it that you had to do that

you were in such a hurry? You were here for just 2 hours exactly and then you

called her on your phone to tell her when you were coming and saying " we've got

to get there. Did she call? " When she says jump,and you say " How high? " I

won't take being left alone here on the holidays.. Things have to change. Or,

uh,you're gonna be… you'll have one less relative to buy a Christmas present

for. I mean it. And I can do it. And I can't do this though. This is the only

option. Bye. "

> >

> > I haven't talked to her since this phone call. It's been over a month. I

reported her to her social worker so they would keep an eye on her... She's

made no serious attempts but was hospitalized for 5 days after this message for

psychiatric reasons.

> >

> > Thanks for any thoughts,

> >

> > Jen

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Jen,

I'm going to repeat your question back to you. So what if you

are wrong and she does love you? She's abusing you.

There's no way you can really know what she feels for you. What

you do know is how she treats you. Emotional abuse is emotional

abuse no matter how she feels inside. You shouldn't have to put

up with being abused. If you were being abused by someone other

than your mother, would you be waffling about putting an end to

it like this? I don't think so. Being your mother does not

entitle her to abuse you. Loving people doesn't give you the

freedom to mistreat them.

There are a lot of variations in how BPs act out. They have

similar elements in the way they think, but there's plenty of

variation in what they actually do. Some of them are just plain

nasty as well as having BPD. Some seem to feel more anger than

others. Some prefer to play the helpless waif while dishing out

gobs of emotional abuse. A lot of them have narcissist traits as

well. I think my nada would have been a nice person if she

hadn't ended up with BPD. She sees herself as a good person who

goes around helping people. Unfortunately, BPD has twisted her

thinking so badly that she has never been able to act like a

mother and the things she does for people that she thinks are

" helping " them are more likely to hurt than help.

There are all sorts of possible explanations for why your nada

is nicer on your birthday. She may be doing it because she wants

to be able to talk about how she always remembers your birthday.

She may be doing it because she thinks that's what she has to do

to keep you in her clutches. Or maybe she just thinks that's

what mothers do and she wants to appear to be a good mother. I

don't think it is because she loves you though. Love isn't

something that you turn on one day a year and then turn off

again.

At 08:33 PM 10/03/2009 jeh017 wrote:

>Everyone is saying about the same thing. I think my face is

>white right now and I have tears running down my cheeks as I

>think about all the examples of how what you say is true. When

>does that little voice inside of me go away that says, " but

>what if you're wrong? what if she DOES love you? "

>

>After buying into her BS for soooooooooooo looooooooong, it's

>really hard to....I don't know. 'believe it' isn't the right

>word. I guess 'accept it.' is a better way to put it. And if

>I can't accept it, I can't adopt this belief as true FOR ME.

>

>Are there different grades of BPD? Some aren't as bad as

>others? But we just all have the rough ones? She never hit

>me. She never poisoned me. But she never did things for me

>either. When she was destitute, I asked her to get me a small

>$2 bottle of hand lotion I could keep in my purse knowing she

>could get it at the pharmacy where she goes all the time. She

>could even regift lotion she already had. Just to show she

>cared. But when I brought $300 of gifts for her for Christmas

>(winter coat, bookshelves, cosmetics, books, etc), she didn't

>even give me a card. She said she hadn't been able to go out

>because she'd been sick. She likes to do crafts a lot and I've

>seen her making these bookmarks and greeting cards. For my

>birthday (she asked what I wanted) I asked for a bookmark since

>I read a lot. It's been about 9 months and I never got

>it. She could have made it in 10 minutes. She always

>remembers my birthday though. She calls to tell me happy

>birthday and she's nice about it that day. What does this

>mean? Anything?

>

>I'm slowly learning what I've known all along, but it's hard.

>

>Thanks,

>Jen

--

Katrina

[Guest guest]

Your mom was very similar in ways, but very different in others. My mom SAID

that she loved me (sometimes) but then she'd say she hated me and wished I was

never born. Her actions were really confusing. She'd promise to pick me up

from school, then leave me stranded. She'd promise to come to my music

recitals, then never showed. I'd walk home and find her in bed sleeping.

It's so weird what you said about the finances. That's what has her in ruins

now. She needs a payee and I won't do it. Was it really hard for you to do

that for her? I don't want my name to be on anything legally that has to do

with her because she has so many outstanding debts that I'm afraid of being

stuck with when she dies.

I also feel that keeping her out of an institution is maybe not in her best

interest. Plus being responsible for her finances would force me back into

regular contact.

I'm happy for you that you finally have a loving relationship in your life. I

don't have any kids but we hope to soon. Part of my reasoning for not having

kids was my failure to understand what was wrong with my mom and fear that I

have it too. (BPD, I've recently learned)

Thanks for being there and helping with this.

Jen

> > >

> > > I've read the book 'Stop Walking on Eggshells' and 'Surviving a Borderline

Parent.' They both tend to talk about how depressed and miserably unhappy BPDs

are and how we should empathize with them because their fear of abandonment is

so severe.. So I've tried to better understand and love my nada knowing her

pain is deeper than anything I could ever imagine. I try to imagine constantly

feeling self-loathing and intense loneliness like the book suggests she feels.

> > >

> > > But when I read all of your posts, it seems that these BPs don't care

about anything but having their needs met. So I wanted your opinion on a

voicemail that she left me a month ago. I want to get your impression of

whether she actually gives a d%$# about anyone besides herself. This is why

it's been so hard for me to deal with her. I keep coming back to her because of

her FOG. But is that simply a tool for manipulation? I guess I wonder whether

she ever really loved me at all. All of your posts seem to describe more than

someone with BPD. It seems like they're NPD! But I certainly don't know, just

wondering.

> > >

> > > This email was left on my cellphone 2 days after we had a 2 hour visit

with her, complete with a trip to dinner (our treat) and the bookstore, where we

bought her a book since she had no money. We were traveling through and it was

late and needed to get to my in-laws early enough that we could see them before

they went to bed.

> > >

> > > " it's mom. I hope you can hear me …….(this is a cell phone

voicemail-which I've told her many times.. No, I can't hear her) I'm not going

to be …here anymore. You said this is not an option. Well, this is the only

option, . I can't go on like this. You know… so, you were in such a

hurry to get out of here Thursday. I don't know what a hold Debbie Emo (MIL)

has on you. You were in such a hurry to get down there. Sigh…What is it?

You didn't even tell me she was going to have a garage sale. There are so many

things that I could use, so many things I need… Like being part of a family

instead of being shoved in a closet for months and months like I just exist.

This place looks the same as it did last year. Nothing's been done. It's

like…It's like you're just keeping me here until I…until I do die. Until

something happens to me. I know you don't like to talk to me when I'm like

this. You only reward good

> behavior. Well I'm not an animal. I'm not Pavlov's dog which rewards good

behavior. I'm human. I'm not one of your dogs. I'm human and I'm hurting.

I'm so sad. I'm so sad. Because you don't want me. You're just performing a

duty to ease your conscience, like taking me out to eat and you were in such a

hurry to get out of here that night. Uh, what was it that you had to do that

you were in such a hurry? You were here for just 2 hours exactly and then you

called her on your phone to tell her when you were coming and saying " we've got

to get there. Did she call? " When she says jump,and you say " How high? " I

won't take being left alone here on the holidays.. Things have to change. Or,

uh,you're gonna be… you'll have one less relative to buy a Christmas present

for. I mean it. And I can do it. And I can't do this though. This is the only

option. Bye. "

> > >

> > > I haven't talked to her since this phone call. It's been over a month. I

reported her to her social worker so they would keep an eye on her... She's

made no serious attempts but was hospitalized for 5 days after this message for

psychiatric reasons.

> > >

> > > Thanks for any thoughts,

> > >

> > > Jen

> > >

> >

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

You really can't explain why you're going NC because she's not

capable of understanding your reasons and trying to make her

understand is likely to cause drama. BPs never believe that

their behavior is wrong. Everybody else is the problem, not

them. Your reasons will not make any sense to her because she

isn't capable of seeing the world without applying her abnormal

BPD filters to what she sees.

On the subject of BPD vs. NPD, I think most of them have some

level of both. I don't think there's a decisive dividing line

between the two disorders. I think that the cluster B disorders

are like different facets of the same stone. For some, the BPD

facet is the biggest and the NPD facet is smaller while for

others the NPD facet is biggest, or one of the others. Some of

the nadas described here seem to have a good bit of anti-social

PD too.

At 08:18 PM 10/03/2009 jeh017 wrote:

>Thanks Katrina for that fast reply. I'm trying to figure out

>how my nada's condition is different from NPD. I read

>'malignant self love' a few years ago and that fit pretty

>well. But there was that whole issue of love and feeling. The

>question was if she could feel love or empathy. Narcissists

>can't, I think. But narcissists are supposed to be pretty high

>functioning, which she isn't. Then there's the

>hypochondriac/Munchausen's thing. She's nearly died multiple

>times of infections that were preventable/treatable early

>on. If she doesn't love me and doesn't need me (other than to

>fulfill her emotional and tangible needs) then I can finally

>cut myself free and live my life guilty free. But the thought

>of abandoning someone who, deep down, loves me very much and

>would be devastated if I abandoned her, hurts me. I think about

>my husband or father leaving me. I wouldn't be able to take

>it. I fear she could kill herself if I did that. My father

>assures me that my mother is a narcissist, and narcissists

>typically are unwilling to kill themselves, despite their

>threats.

>

>I know that any problem in your life that affects your

>day-to-day quality of life is a big problem. Something that

>needs to be fixed. If depression keeps you from leaving the

>house, you need medical help. If your ACL is torn and keeps

>you from running, walking, biking-doing what you love-it might

>be time to consider surgery. And yet, my 'Aha' moment is slow

>to come. My quality of life from having a relationship with

>her is so poor (just for the immediate time before-during-after

>visits/phone calls) that you'd think I would just " get

>it. " But she's my mom. And I feel sorry for her. If I had

>her life, I'd kill myself. She's all alone. No one listens to

>her. She's about to be kicked out of her apartment and be

>institutionalized (more because of her financial issues then

>mental issues.) Although her financial issues are a direct

>result of her mental issues. It's so hard to walk away from

>it. If this were my father, I'd sell a kidney to help

>him. I'd move him right into my house to take care of him if

>he needed me to. But with her, I can't even lift a finger to

>call... I really feel like a horrible person sometimes. The

>rational me knows I'm not horrible. But the daughter in me

>tucks her tail between her legs and says, " I could do more for

>her. "

>

>Now I'm NC for the first time in years and wonder if that was

>maybe overkill for the message she left? But the message just

>shows that in 30 years, nothing's changed. Do I really want to

>be 50 years old and still be told that I'm ingrateful and

>selfish? That I need to give away more of my soul? How much

>of my soul is enough?

>

>The other issue, of course, is that I think I hate her. I

>really do. And I can't hide it when I'm with her. I can

>plaster a smile on my face and buy her stuff and have a meal

>with her, but it's excruciating. I feel like she only sees me

>as a taxicab and a credit card. I don't want anything bad to

>happen to her, but I can't stand her! From the message you can

>see that when I'm with her, it shows. (obligation, easing my

>conscience, etc) I joined this group in the hopes that I could

>better understand how to relate to her and talk to her and keep

>my guard up to keep from getting hurt. But the more stories I

>read, it looks like that's not going to end well for me. But

>going NC without explanation seems disrespectful since she

>doesn't even know that she crossed the line. Yet how can I

>explain why I went NC? There's no explaining it! So I'm

>endlessly confused and sitting on the face as day by day goes

>by. Failing to commit one way or the other as to when/if I'll

>talk to her again. I suspect I'll probably make up with her

>for Thanksgiving and Christmas, then wait until her birthday to

>have anything to do with her again.

>

>Drama, drama, drama. No other part of my life has drama. I'm

>very happily married. I have a good job and steady income (as

>does my husband). I have a good relationship with

>siblings. Life is so easy without her. I'm enjoying my

>vacation from the weekly hourlong rants about why life is so

>horrible. I'm milking this vacation for all it's worth.

>

>Thanks for listening for the long haul. I know these are long

>posts. 30 years of conflicted thoughts take some time to work

>through!

>

>

> >

>

>

>

>

>------------------------------------

>

>Problems? Ask our friendly List Manager for help at

>@.... SEND HER ANY POSTS THAT CONCERN YOU; DO

>NOT Respond ON THE GROUP.

>

>To order the KO bible " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " call

>888-35-SHELL () for your copy. We also refer to

> " Understanding the Borderline Mother " (Lawson) and " Surviving

>the Borderline Parent, " (Roth) which you can find at any

>bookstore. Welcome to the WTO community!

>

> From Randi Kreger, Owner BPDCentral, WTO Online Community and

> author SWOE and the SWOE Workbook.

[Guest guest]

,

Your recent posts have been so good...I know you're in the midst of figuring

things out, but your written musings are heart-felt...giving us here much food

for thought! My nada also has many narcissistic qualities, and I have wrestled

with many of the same questions that you have.

I'm beginning to think that some of my questions, such as wondering if my nada

has the ability to love, are similar to the questions I used to ponder when I

was falling asleep at night as a little girl...big things like where the world

came from, and why I was me and not somebody else...questions that lead to deep

pondering, but not to definitive answers!

Maybe others here have a different experience with these dilemmas that make our

minds spin, but I've pretty much given up on getting any hard and fast answers.

Is my nada capable of love? Well, I don't know. Dogs are capable of love...but

not in the same way as fully functioning humans. How about pigs or chickens? I

don't think so. Nada? Her mind and soul are still a mystery to me. I spent years

trying to understand her, and I'm still shaking my head and trying to make sense

of it. Having the BPD diagnosis helps, but I find BPD thoughts and behaviors so

foreign to my own. It's like another language where I get a few words and

phrases, but it still sounds like gibble-gabble.

I think that my nada functions at the emotional level of about a two year old.

But she's not a two year old, which is where the creepiness factor of her

illness comes in. Two year olds don't have the ability to maliciously gossip,

deliberately manipulate, and wreak havoc in people's lives the way my nada does.

So this analogy doesn't really help me with the question.

Lately I've been focusing on answers to different questions...questions I can

answer, like how do I feel today, or what kind of contact can I have with my FOO

that doesn't negatively impact my life (answer to that second question: as

little contact as possible, ideally, none)

I'm 53 years old and just now figuring out that the price tag attached to

continuing to have a relationship with nada is one that I can't continue to pay.

I've been 'picking up the cheque' in this relationship since I was a little

girl!

It's really good that you are figuring this stuff out at a younger age. It

scares me to think that I'm just now starting to heal, just as nada is getting

to the point where the family will have to deal with her aging...she's 75.

I don't hear anything of love or care for anyone else in your nada's message.

She does sound miserably unhappy, but also extremely manipulative, with BPD/Nism

leaking out all over the place. Her message really packs an emotional wallop

doesn't it? If I were in your shoes, that message would have knocked me right

out of them! There is really no answer to a message like that..other than what

you did...calling in mental health professionals.

I don't like my nada either. I haven't liked her since I was 4 years old. I

remember thinking about it when I was little...how much I disliked/hated her.

Why would I " like " someone that abused me...that I was afraid of, that was

deliberately cruel to me? At times she acted " loving " , sort of, in her odd

little nada way. Maybe acting that way suited her needs, and that's what it was

about.

Yes, I was bonded to her...one of the wise folks here wrote once that all

children bond to their parents. Until about a year ago, I was bonded to her in a

Stockholm syndrome/trauma bond sort of way.

But that's not love either is it? N-ists just see people as extensions of

themselves or as possessions... " my arm " " my house " " my daughter " ...isn't that

the antithesis of love?

I have had to face the fact that I don't love nada, and she doesn't/can't

(really) love me. I care about what happens to her. But it is nothing like the

love relationships I have with my husband and adult children...even my good

friends. I have also had to face the fact that contact with nada makes me sick.

Literally sick. I got to the point where I had to put on my own parachute and

bail out of the relationship, as it was heading down, and I had to leave nada

behind and save my own life. I still deal with the guilt and all the rest of it,

but it's gotten better in the last few months.

You sound like a very intelligent, insightful person. I hope that support here

is helpful to you in figuring out the what-to-do part of dealing with a mother

with untreated BPD/NPD.

P.S. I believe that Randi calls the BPD/NPD combo " border-lions " and that they

are doubly hard to deal with. Another good resource is the book Understanding

the Borderline Mother by Ann Lawson. My copy is nearly worn out. I

picked this book up every time I got lost in the fog of fear, obligation, and

guilt.

For me, the signposts showing the way out have been groups like this, books,

therapy, journaling, and supportive friends.

Thanks for your posts..we benefit from your thoughts and experience too...it

goes both ways.

Kate aka Rusty Tiara

>

> Thanks Katrina for that fast reply. I'm trying to figure out how my nada's

condition is different from NPD. I read 'malignant self love' a few years ago

and that fit pretty well. But there was that whole issue of love and feeling.

The question was if she could feel love or empathy. Narcissists can't, I think.

But narcissists are supposed to be pretty high functioning, which she isn't.

Then there's the hypochondriac/Munchausen's thing. She's nearly died multiple

times of infections that were preventable/treatable early on. If she doesn't

love me and doesn't need me (other than to fulfill her emotional and tangible

needs) then I can finally cut myself free and live my life guilty free. But the

thought of abandoning someone who, deep down, loves me very much and would be

devastated if I abandoned her, hurts me. I think about my husband or father

leaving me. I wouldn't be able to take it. I fear she could kill herself if I

did that. My father assures me that my mother is a narcissist, and narcissists

typically are unwilling to kill themselves, despite their threats.

>

> I know that any problem in your life that affects your day-to-day quality of

life is a big problem. Something that needs to be fixed. If depression keeps

you from leaving the house, you need medical help. If your ACL is torn and

keeps you from running, walking, biking-doing what you love-it might be time to

consider surgery. And yet, my 'Aha' moment is slow to come. My quality of life

from having a relationship with her is so poor (just for the immediate time

before-during-after visits/phone calls) that you'd think I would just " get it. "

But she's my mom. And I feel sorry for her. If I had her life, I'd kill

myself. She's all alone. No one listens to her. She's about to be kicked out

of her apartment and be institutionalized (more because of her financial issues

then mental issues.) Although her financial issues are a direct result of her

mental issues. It's so hard to walk away from it. If this were my father, I'd

sell a kidney to help him. I'd move him right into my house to take care of him

if he needed me to. But with her, I can't even lift a finger to call... I

really feel like a horrible person sometimes. The rational me knows I'm not

horrible. But the daughter in me tucks her tail between her legs and says, " I

could do more for her. "

>

> Now I'm NC for the first time in years and wonder if that was maybe overkill

for the message she left? But the message just shows that in 30 years,

nothing's changed. Do I really want to be 50 years old and still be told that

I'm ingrateful and selfish? That I need to give away more of my soul? How much

of my soul is enough?

>

> The other issue, of course, is that I think I hate her. I really do. And I

can't hide it when I'm with her. I can plaster a smile on my face and buy her

stuff and have a meal with her, but it's excruciating. I feel like she only

sees me as a taxicab and a credit card. I don't want anything bad to happen to

her, but I can't stand her! From the message you can see that when I'm with

her, it shows. (obligation, easing my conscience, etc) I joined this group in

the hopes that I could better understand how to relate to her and talk to her

and keep my guard up to keep from getting hurt. But the more stories I read, it

looks like that's not going to end well for me. But going NC without

explanation seems disrespectful since she doesn't even know that she crossed the

line. Yet how can I explain why I went NC? There's no explaining it! So I'm

endlessly confused and sitting on the face as day by day goes by. Failing to

commit one way or the other as to when/if I'll talk to her again. I suspect

I'll probably make up with her for Thanksgiving and Christmas, then wait until

her birthday to have anything to do with her again.

>

> Drama, drama, drama. No other part of my life has drama. I'm very happily

married. I have a good job and steady income (as does my husband). I have a

good relationship with siblings. Life is so easy without her. I'm enjoying my

vacation from the weekly hourlong rants about why life is so horrible. I'm

milking this vacation for all it's worth.

>

> Thanks for listening for the long haul. I know these are long posts. 30 years

of conflicted thoughts take some time to work through!

>

>

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks, Katrina. I GUARANTEE that if this were anyone else, they'd have 2

chances at emotional abuse, then DONE! I guarantee it. Why do I do this? I'm

a sucker!

It seems that a majority of the people on this site are NC. That should

probably be a wake-up call, eh?

I wonder if it's harder for me to split from her because she's more the waif

type until she gets backed into a corner. Plus she is awesome at the guilt

trips.

It might have been more clear cut if she had been more directly verbally and

physically abusive like so many people have described on this site. But really,

probably not.

Thanks for your insights. I wish I were stronger, but I think I'll get there.

The guilt is so heavy! I wonder if I'll ever let it go!

I have a T appointment this week, just for working through this! I hope I have

the discipline to see it all the way through. I'm not good at opening up at a

scheduled time every week. But I really do want help, so I'm going to go for

it!

Jen

> >Everyone is saying about the same thing. I think my face is

> >white right now and I have tears running down my cheeks as I

> >think about all the examples of how what you say is true. When

> >does that little voice inside of me go away that says, " but

> >what if you're wrong? what if she DOES love you? "

> >

> >After buying into her BS for soooooooooooo looooooooong, it's

> >really hard to....I don't know. 'believe it' isn't the right

> >word. I guess 'accept it.' is a better way to put it. And if

> >I can't accept it, I can't adopt this belief as true FOR ME.

> >

> >Are there different grades of BPD? Some aren't as bad as

> >others? But we just all have the rough ones? She never hit

> >me. She never poisoned me. But she never did things for me

> >either. When she was destitute, I asked her to get me a small

> >$2 bottle of hand lotion I could keep in my purse knowing she

> >could get it at the pharmacy where she goes all the time. She

> >could even regift lotion she already had. Just to show she

> >cared. But when I brought $300 of gifts for her for Christmas

> >(winter coat, bookshelves, cosmetics, books, etc), she didn't

> >even give me a card. She said she hadn't been able to go out

> >because she'd been sick. She likes to do crafts a lot and I've

> >seen her making these bookmarks and greeting cards. For my

> >birthday (she asked what I wanted) I asked for a bookmark since

> >I read a lot. It's been about 9 months and I never got

> >it. She could have made it in 10 minutes. She always

> >remembers my birthday though. She calls to tell me happy

> >birthday and she's nice about it that day. What does this

> >mean? Anything?

> >

> >I'm slowly learning what I've known all along, but it's hard.

> >

> >Thanks,

> >Jen

>

> --

> Katrina

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks Katrina. I'm not as educated on these disorders as so many of you are.

I'm learning. I had never heard the term Cluster B disorder until today. I

didn't realize that these disorders were all related. That makes more sense to

me. I am learning so much! And it is helping me through this. And so are you.

Thanks.

Have you heard of any BPs that have actually gotten help and learned to have

meaningful relationships? I know that won't happen with my nada. I'm just

curious. I have at least given up hope of her mental illness improving. That's

a pretty big step. I guess I do the baby step thing. At least I'm getting

somewhere! :)I think with my nada I take 2 steps forward and 1 step back over

the years and though it takes me longer to get to where you are, I am there with

more conviction and less doubt than I might have if I'd done it any other way.

I abandoned my mother a long time ago when I was 13 and decided to live with my

dad and stepmom instead of her. She's never forgiven him for remarrying and

never forgiven me for deserting her. Oh well. She said I was selfish, and I

feel it's the best thing I could have done for myself. I certainly wouldn't be

a veterinarian now if I hadn't done it. I don't know what I'd be doing, but

would probably have a lot more sad stories. I should just be thankful that I

had someone to turn to for support, unlike so many others on this site. That's

the real tragedy.

> >Thanks Katrina for that fast reply. I'm trying to figure out

> >how my nada's condition is different from NPD. I read

> >'malignant self love' a few years ago and that fit pretty

> >well. But there was that whole issue of love and feeling. The

> >question was if she could feel love or empathy. Narcissists

> >can't, I think. But narcissists are supposed to be pretty high

> >functioning, which she isn't. Then there's the

> >hypochondriac/Munchausen's thing. She's nearly died multiple

> >times of infections that were preventable/treatable early

> >on. If she doesn't love me and doesn't need me (other than to

> >fulfill her emotional and tangible needs) then I can finally

> >cut myself free and live my life guilty free. But the thought

> >of abandoning someone who, deep down, loves me very much and

> >would be devastated if I abandoned her, hurts me. I think about

> >my husband or father leaving me. I wouldn't be able to take

> >it. I fear she could kill herself if I did that. My father

> >assures me that my mother is a narcissist, and narcissists

> >typically are unwilling to kill themselves, despite their

> >threats.

> >

> >I know that any problem in your life that affects your

> >day-to-day quality of life is a big problem. Something that

> >needs to be fixed. If depression keeps you from leaving the

> >house, you need medical help. If your ACL is torn and keeps

> >you from running, walking, biking-doing what you love-it might

> >be time to consider surgery. And yet, my 'Aha' moment is slow

> >to come. My quality of life from having a relationship with

> >her is so poor (just for the immediate time before-during-after

> >visits/phone calls) that you'd think I would just " get

> >it. " But she's my mom. And I feel sorry for her. If I had

> >her life, I'd kill myself. She's all alone. No one listens to

> >her. She's about to be kicked out of her apartment and be

> >institutionalized (more because of her financial issues then

> >mental issues.) Although her financial issues are a direct

> >result of her mental issues. It's so hard to walk away from

> >it. If this were my father, I'd sell a kidney to help

> >him. I'd move him right into my house to take care of him if

> >he needed me to. But with her, I can't even lift a finger to

> >call... I really feel like a horrible person sometimes. The

> >rational me knows I'm not horrible. But the daughter in me

> >tucks her tail between her legs and says, " I could do more for

> >her. "

> >

> >Now I'm NC for the first time in years and wonder if that was

> >maybe overkill for the message she left? But the message just

> >shows that in 30 years, nothing's changed. Do I really want to

> >be 50 years old and still be told that I'm ingrateful and

> >selfish? That I need to give away more of my soul? How much

> >of my soul is enough?

> >

> >The other issue, of course, is that I think I hate her. I

> >really do. And I can't hide it when I'm with her. I can

> >plaster a smile on my face and buy her stuff and have a meal

> >with her, but it's excruciating. I feel like she only sees me

> >as a taxicab and a credit card. I don't want anything bad to

> >happen to her, but I can't stand her! From the message you can

> >see that when I'm with her, it shows. (obligation, easing my

> >conscience, etc) I joined this group in the hopes that I could

> >better understand how to relate to her and talk to her and keep

> >my guard up to keep from getting hurt. But the more stories I

> >read, it looks like that's not going to end well for me. But

> >going NC without explanation seems disrespectful since she

> >doesn't even know that she crossed the line. Yet how can I

> >explain why I went NC? There's no explaining it! So I'm

> >endlessly confused and sitting on the face as day by day goes

> >by. Failing to commit one way or the other as to when/if I'll

> >talk to her again. I suspect I'll probably make up with her

> >for Thanksgiving and Christmas, then wait until her birthday to

> >have anything to do with her again.

> >

> >Drama, drama, drama. No other part of my life has drama. I'm

> >very happily married. I have a good job and steady income (as

> >does my husband). I have a good relationship with

> >siblings. Life is so easy without her. I'm enjoying my

> >vacation from the weekly hourlong rants about why life is so

> >horrible. I'm milking this vacation for all it's worth.

> >

> >Thanks for listening for the long haul. I know these are long

> >posts. 30 years of conflicted thoughts take some time to work

> >through!

> >

> >

> > >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >------------------------------------

> >

> >Problems? Ask our friendly List Manager for help at

> >@... SEND HER ANY POSTS THAT CONCERN YOU; DO

> >NOT Respond ON THE GROUP.

> >

> >To order the KO bible " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " call

> >888-35-SHELL () for your copy. We also refer to

> > " Understanding the Borderline Mother " (Lawson) and " Surviving

> >the Borderline Parent, " (Roth) which you can find at any

> >bookstore. Welcome to the WTO community!

> >

> > From Randi Kreger, Owner BPDCentral, WTO Online Community and

> > author SWOE and the SWOE Workbook.

[Guest guest]

You said:

" But she's my mom. And I feel sorry for her. If I had her life, I'd kill myself.

She's all alone. No one listens to her. "

I know what you mean. I don't know what the actual problem is with my nada is

either (I have a BPD/NPD/sociopathic fada that I am NC with). My Nada has never

left a message like you describe, but I can relate to the whole " it wasnt all

horrible and she's all alone " thing.

For me LC has been the most helpful. I haven't actually seen her in about 2

years and we talk on the phone roughly every other month. Usually around the

holidays/birthdays. I try to keep it casual, though I'll admit to being guilty

of " going there " cause I really want to understand her perspective. Its hard. If

NC feels too difficult for you then maybe try LC and see how that works. If LC

is a problem maybe then you could move to NC. The real issue is...what is best

for you?

>

> jennifer,

>

> I am sorry if this sounds cruel to you but if this were my nada (who has been

cruel to me my entire life) then I would go NC if at all possible. If not for my

son and no other support system then I would have no contact with her now. She

deserves no explanation, she will make up whatever excuse she wants no matter

what you tell her - it will never be her fault in her mind. If she is that

unhealthy for you then you have to take care of yourself first, she is an adult

who made her choices. We do not automatically owe people our lives just because

they happen to be related by blood or donated DNA to produce us. Abusers do not

respond to reason (I had to learn this the hard way with my PD'd ex hubby) and

they do not understand kindness or love. They just take and take and take until

you are an empty husk and then they move on to another host organism. If they

can't bleed you dry then they just suck as they are able and take what they can,

their host never

> dries out so they provide an endless supply. They are not like us, they don't

think like us or feel like us. PD's just give me that " ick " feeling and all I

want to do is walk away, blood relatives are not entitled to abuse or use me any

more than strangers are. This is how I feel for my son too - I don't want him to

feel obligated to care for or become host for an emotional vampire... no matter

the source of the vampirism. If people abuse us, we should be entitled to remove

them from our lives. If people are unhealthy for us, we don't need them around.

No drama, no abuse, no unecessary suffering.

>

>

>

>

> ________________________________

>

> To: WTOAdultChildren1

> Sent: Saturday, October 3, 2009 8:18:18 PM

> Subject: Re: What do nadas feel? Do they love?

>

>

> Thanks Katrina for that fast reply. I'm trying to figure out how my nada's

condition is different from NPD. I read 'malignant self love' a few years ago

and that fit pretty well. But there was that whole issue of love and feeling.

The question was if she could feel love or empathy. Narcissists can't, I think.

But narcissists are supposed to be pretty high functioning, which she isn't.

Then there's the hypochondriac/ Munchausen' s thing. She's nearly died multiple

times of infections that were preventable/ treatable early on. If she doesn't

love me and doesn't need me (other than to fulfill her emotional and tangible

needs) then I can finally cut myself free and live my life guilty free. But the

thought of abandoning someone who, deep down, loves me very much and would be

devastated if I abandoned her, hurts me. I think about my husband or father

leaving me. I wouldn't be able to take it. I fear she could kill herself if I

did that. My father

> assures me that my mother is a narcissist, and narcissists typically are

unwilling to kill themselves, despite their threats.

>

> I know that any problem in your life that affects your day-to-day quality of

life is a big problem. Something that needs to be fixed. If depression keeps

you from leaving the house, you need medical help. If your ACL is torn and

keeps you from running, walking, biking-doing what you love-it might be time to

consider surgery. And yet, my 'Aha' moment is slow to come. My quality of life

from having a relationship with her is so poor (just for the immediate time

before-during- after visits/phone calls) that you'd think I would just " get it. "

But she's my mom. And I feel sorry for her. If I had her life, I'd kill

myself. She's all alone. No one listens to her. She's about to be kicked out

of her apartment and be institutionalized (more because of her financial issues

then mental issues.) Although her financial issues are a direct result of her

mental issues. It's so hard to walk away from it. If this were my father, I'd

sell a kidney to help

> him. I'd move him right into my house to take care of him if he needed me

to. But with her, I can't even lift a finger to call... I really feel like a

horrible person sometimes. The rational me knows I'm not horrible. But the

daughter in me tucks her tail between her legs and says, " I could do more for

her. "

>

> Now I'm NC for the first time in years and wonder if that was maybe overkill

for the message she left? But the message just shows that in 30 years,

nothing's changed. Do I really want to be 50 years old and still be told that

I'm ingrateful and selfish? That I need to give away more of my soul? How much

of my soul is enough?

>

> The other issue, of course, is that I think I hate her. I really do. And I

can't hide it when I'm with her. I can plaster a smile on my face and buy her

stuff and have a meal with her, but it's excruciating. I feel like she only

sees me as a taxicab and a credit card. I don't want anything bad to happen to

her, but I can't stand her! From the message you can see that when I'm with

her, it shows. (obligation, easing my conscience, etc) I joined this group in

the hopes that I could better understand how to relate to her and talk to her

and keep my guard up to keep from getting hurt. But the more stories I read, it

looks like that's not going to end well for me. But going NC without

explanation seems disrespectful since she doesn't even know that she crossed the

line. Yet how can I explain why I went NC? There's no explaining it! So I'm

endlessly confused and sitting on the face as day by day goes by. Failing to

commit one way or the other as

> to when/if I'll talk to her again. I suspect I'll probably make up with her

for Thanksgiving and Christmas, then wait until her birthday to have anything to

do with her again.

>

> Drama, drama, drama. No other part of my life has drama. I'm very happily

married. I have a good job and steady income (as does my husband). I have a

good relationship with siblings. Life is so easy without her. I'm enjoying my

vacation from the weekly hourlong rants about why life is so horrible. I'm

milking this vacation for all it's worth.

>

> Thanks for listening for the long haul. I know these are long posts. 30 years

of conflicted thoughts take some time to work through!

>

>

> >

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

> > >

> > > I've read the book 'Stop Walking on Eggshells' and 'Surviving a Borderline

Parent.' They both tend to talk about how depressed and miserably unhappy BPDs

are and how we should empathize with them because their fear of abandonment is

so severe. So I've tried to better understand and love my nada knowing her pain

is deeper than anything I could ever imagine. I try to imagine constantly

feeling self-loathing and intense loneliness like the book suggests she feels.

> > >

> > > But when I read all of your posts, it seems that these BPs don't care

about anything but having their needs met. So I wanted your opinion on a

voicemail that she left me a month ago. I want to get your impression of

whether she actually gives a d%$# about anyone besides herself. This is why

it's been so hard for me to deal with her. I keep coming back to her because of

her FOG. But is that simply a tool for manipulation? I guess I wonder whether

she ever really loved me at all. All of your posts seem to describe more than

someone with BPD. It seems like they're NPD! But I certainly don't know, just

wondering.

> > >

> > > This email was left on my cellphone 2 days after we had a 2 hour visit

with her, complete with a trip to dinner (our treat) and the bookstore, where we

bought her a book since she had no money. We were traveling through and it was

late and needed to get to my in-laws early enough that we could see them before

they went to bed.

> > >

> > > " it's mom. I hope you can hear me …….(this is a cell phone

voicemail-which I've told her many times. No, I can't hear her) I'm not going

to be …here anymore. You said this is not an option. Well, this is the only

option, . I can't go on like this. You know… so, you were in such a

hurry to get out of here Thursday. I don't know what a hold Debbie Emo (MIL)

has on you. You were in such a hurry to get down there. Sigh…What is it? You

didn't even tell me she was going to have a garage sale. There are so many

things that I could use, so many things I need… Like being part of a family

instead of being shoved in a closet for months and months like I just exist.

This place looks the same as it did last year. Nothing's been done. It's

like…It's like you're just keeping me here until I…until I do die. Until

something happens to me. I know you don't like to talk to me when I'm like

this. You only reward good behavior. Well I'm not an animal. I'm not

Pavlov's dog which rewards good behavior. I'm human. I'm not one of your dogs.

I'm human and I'm hurting. I'm so sad. I'm so sad. Because you don't want me.

You're just performing a duty to ease your conscience, like taking me out to eat

and you were in such a hurry to get out of here that night. Uh, what was it

that you had to do that you were in such a hurry? You were here for just 2

hours exactly and then you called her on your phone to tell her when you were

coming and saying " we've got to get there. Did she call? " When she says

jump,and you say " How high? " I won't take being left alone here on the

holidays. Things have to change. Or, uh,you're gonna be… you'll have one less

relative to buy a Christmas present for. I mean it. And I can do it. And I

can't do this though. This is the only option. Bye. "

> > >

> > > I haven't talked to her since this phone call. It's been over a month. I

reported her to her social worker so they would keep an eye on her... She's

made no serious attempts but was hospitalized for 5 days after this message for

psychiatric reasons.

> > >

> > > Thanks for any thoughts,

> > >

> > > Jen

> > >

> >

>

I have been reading a lot about cluster B can someone explain that further?

Thanx julie

[Guest guest]

The four " Cluster B " personality disorders are grouped together (in Axis II of

the DSM-IV) because they share certain core features, including " acting out "

their dysfunctions; think of them as the " drama club. "

The four are: histrionic pd, borderline pd, narcissistic pd, and antisocial pd.

Some psychiatrists consider these pds to be more of a continuum of severity than

separate, distinct disorders, with histrionic pd being the mildest and

antisocial pd being the most severe.

Here's a link to a site that discusses the " Cluster B " disorders as more of a

continuum; this three-part article details the core features they share and how

having a pd individual in your life can negatively affect you.

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/WTOAdultChildren1/post?act=reply & messageNum\

=101448

I hope that helps; was there something in particular you wanted to know? I'm

sure that either I or others here can give you links to all sorts of articles

and research papers and such on bpd.

-Annie

> I have been reading a lot about cluster B can someone explain that further?

Thanx julie

>

[Guest guest]

,the voicemail message your nada left you as well as the general threat

she hangs over your head of her " having " to kill herself because she " has no

other option " isn't an expression of love but an expression of her illness.

If love is about being the best you can be and giving the best of yourself

for the mutual benefit of both people in a relationship,I don't think that BPDs

can do this: their primary concern is what they get out of the relationship,not

what they are giving to it.

I noticed that,aside from terrorizing you with threatening the ultimate act

of self destruction (suicide),your nada also did nothing but blame you for

" making " her feel so awful: you did this and you did that and now I have no

other option but to end it all.Not once does she ask you why,why did you seem to

want to leave so soon,what did I do,is it me or are you having some problem you

didn't tell me,what is wrong? How can we BOTH fix this?

Asking you why and receiving an answer would entail her having to work on

her end of her relationship with you.Relationships with PDs tend to be one sided

with the non-PD being expected to assume all the caretaking responsibilties for

the PD,with no assumption of a mutuality of responsibility on the PD's part; no

attempt by the PD to repair the rupture by wanting to understand it and to

behave differently if that will make it better.

Instead,they assign blame and responsibility to the other person and to

me that just isn't love.Love is mutual responsibility for eachother's well

being.

I know it's hard to get a grip on and very hard to accept the idea that a

nada is too dysfunctional to truly love us.They're our mothers,after all,but so

often we find ourselves in the twisted position of being the parent to the one

who is supposed to parent us and to feel misplaced guilt and responsibility for

the behaviors that issue from their illness.The bottom line is that we simply

cannot save them from themselves,no matter what we do.They need professional

help.They are mentally ill.

That is not our fault and anything they do because of their illness is

not our fault.

Take care

>

> Thanks Katrina for that fast reply. I'm trying to figure out how my nada's

condition is different from NPD. I read 'malignant self love' a few years ago

and that fit pretty well. But there was that whole issue of love and feeling.

The question was if she could feel love or empathy. Narcissists can't, I think.

But narcissists are supposed to be pretty high functioning, which she isn't.

Then there's the hypochondriac/Munchausen's thing. She's nearly died multiple

times of infections that were preventable/treatable early on. If she doesn't

love me and doesn't need me (other than to fulfill her emotional and tangible

needs) then I can finally cut myself free and live my life guilty free. But the

thought of abandoning someone who, deep down, loves me very much and would be

devastated if I abandoned her, hurts me. I think about my husband or father

leaving me. I wouldn't be able to take it. I fear she could kill herself if I

did that. My father assures me that my mother is a narcissist, and narcissists

typically are unwilling to kill themselves, despite their threats.

>

> I know that any problem in your life that affects your day-to-day quality of

life is a big problem. Something that needs to be fixed. If depression keeps

you from leaving the house, you need medical help. If your ACL is torn and

keeps you from running, walking, biking-doing what you love-it might be time to

consider surgery. And yet, my 'Aha' moment is slow to come. My quality of life

from having a relationship with her is so poor (just for the immediate time

before-during-after visits/phone calls) that you'd think I would just " get it. "

But she's my mom. And I feel sorry for her. If I had her life, I'd kill

myself. She's all alone. No one listens to her. She's about to be kicked out

of her apartment and be institutionalized (more because of her financial issues

then mental issues.) Although her financial issues are a direct result of her

mental issues. It's so hard to walk away from it. If this were my father, I'd

sell a kidney to help him. I'd move him right into my house to take care of him

if he needed me to. But with her, I can't even lift a finger to call... I

really feel like a horrible person sometimes. The rational me knows I'm not

horrible. But the daughter in me tucks her tail between her legs and says, " I

could do more for her. "

>

> Now I'm NC for the first time in years and wonder if that was maybe overkill

for the message she left? But the message just shows that in 30 years,

nothing's changed. Do I really want to be 50 years old and still be told that

I'm ingrateful and selfish? That I need to give away more of my soul? How much

of my soul is enough?

>

> The other issue, of course, is that I think I hate her. I really do. And I

can't hide it when I'm with her. I can plaster a smile on my face and buy her

stuff and have a meal with her, but it's excruciating. I feel like she only

sees me as a taxicab and a credit card. I don't want anything bad to happen to

her, but I can't stand her! From the message you can see that when I'm with

her, it shows. (obligation, easing my conscience, etc) I joined this group in

the hopes that I could better understand how to relate to her and talk to her

and keep my guard up to keep from getting hurt. But the more stories I read, it

looks like that's not going to end well for me. But going NC without

explanation seems disrespectful since she doesn't even know that she crossed the

line. Yet how can I explain why I went NC? There's no explaining it! So I'm

endlessly confused and sitting on the face as day by day goes by. Failing to

commit one way or the other as to when/if I'll talk to her again. I suspect

I'll probably make up with her for Thanksgiving and Christmas, then wait until

her birthday to have anything to do with her again.

>

> Drama, drama, drama. No other part of my life has drama. I'm very happily

married. I have a good job and steady income (as does my husband). I have a

good relationship with siblings. Life is so easy without her. I'm enjoying my

vacation from the weekly hourlong rants about why life is so horrible. I'm

milking this vacation for all it's worth.

>

> Thanks for listening for the long haul. I know these are long posts. 30 years

of conflicted thoughts take some time to work through!

>

>

> >

>

[Guest guest]

I think nadas love, but only to the extent, as we all do, that we are capable.

In my nada's case, as in many others here, they were not given love so they

don't know how to give love in a healthy sense. Her father incested her from

the age of two and he was an alcoholic. Certaiinly no nurturing, love, or

anything even human there! Her sense of abandonment, in the emotional sense for

sure, was stunning. She was treated like a field hand as soon as she was old

enough to go out and work them. She was not alone. All of her brothers and

sisters were treated like that. When she had appendicitis, she was told to keep

working by her father despite being doubled over in pain. It had ruptured

according to nada and was about to burst by the time her one brother fought

their father and stubbornly carried her to the local doctor in town. From then

on her brother was her angel.

Her mother was, according to all the family, a saint who lived her faith, and

gave her last slice of bread she was supposed to eat to a begger if he came by.

She would do without. She would sacrifice. She would volunteer at the church.

She would be in there prayng every day for her family. Yet she was oblivious to

what her husband was doing to their own daughters - oblivious to his

drunkenness. Of course they couldn't divorce as that was against her Catholic

religion at the time. Instead she burned candles and prayed - hoping that that

was enough to change things I suppose.

Yes she sends a card and $ for my birthday, Easter and Christmas. She always

asks when she's in a good mood, if I need money, but it is often met with 'I

suffered more than you - you're a MILLIONAIRE compared to what I was " . It's

always 'ask me how I suffered " or " I've suffered and do suffer more than you " no

matter what it is. I feel like saying it is not a competition, Mother! She

uses her tremendous amount of money as a weapon.

So yes I think they love - just not in a healthy way.

[Guest guest]

jeh017,

my nada said that she loved me too but she didn't treat me that way, which is

why I verbally expressed to her that I didn;t think she loved me. She just

happened to verbally " agree " with me (in her sarcastic way that allows her to

deny it later.) The strange thing is, my son has not wanted to see my nada

lately because of things she has said to HIM (telling him that he is being bad

because I am bad, amongst other things.) Nada said the same kinds of things to

me when I was a kid, which gives firm support for what my son is saying now.

Nada is, of course, denying the whole thing in spite of this being an almost

exact copy of things she said to me (her screetches " you are just like your

FATHERRRRRRRR! " if I didn't do as she demanded..)

I briefly explained to her WHY my son does not want to see her in an email, she

had accused ME of hating her and THAT being the reason for him not wanting to go

there, and I told her that I would not force him to do so (unlike when my nada

forced me to visit with my daughter-of-satan grandma when I was little). She

sends me confusing emails complaing about how she has gotten older and just

can't play with him like she used to (uh, that was NOT the complaint at all from

my son) and she says she will work less so she is not so tired. Also, she is

only 55 so she is not THAT old. She later sends another email telling me that

she never told my son that she didn't love him (I never said she did, I sent her

a list of the things he said that she was doing and saying and that was not

amongst them but it is funny how SHE came up with that statement.) I didn't try

to explain every detail or reason with her because that is impossible, I merely

stated what she was

saying to my son and that he would not be seeing her until he chose to do so. I

stand behind my son and if she is hurting his feelings then it is her fault if

she has lost one of the few allies that she had (my son used to LIKE going to my

nada's home, she can choose favorites and I thought she had done that with my

son so I thought she was treating him well, she didn;t have the demands of

motherhood - all she had to do was be present when he was there and feed him.)

My son could not and would not make those things up, nada is a liar, so of

course I believe my son (nada whined in her email " I know you believe him

but..... " whatever BS she gives today.)

We ran into her at a store yesterday and my son nervously showed her something

he was buying. She tried to give him a " high five " and he backed away from her..

Nada got the whiny voice and near-to-tears look that BP's are famous for when

they are not the center of attention. She whined " I love you both " as a parting

hoover, which falls on my deaf ears. I simply have no pity for her after my

childhood with her and I gave her a chance to form a better relationship with my

son - nada HAS gotten some treatment for her mental illness but it does not seem

to be enough for her to overcome her issues. She is alienating my son from her.

If he loses all interest in her then I will have NO reason to maintain ANY

contact with her, she loses both of us. I am nada's only natural child (she

adopted my cousin and, for some reason, he maintains contact with her even

though she treated him much worse than she treated me, he ran away from him for

good when he was 16 but he

keeps in touch with her anyway). It is sad that she does these things to

herself but it is all her own doing.

________________________________

To: WTOAdultChildren1

Sent: Saturday, October 3, 2009 9:19:20 PM

Subject: Re: What do nadas feel? Do they love?

Your mom was very similar in ways, but very different in others. My mom SAID

that she loved me (sometimes) but then she'd say she hated me and wished I was

never born.. Her actions were really confusing. She'd promise to pick me up

from school, then leave me stranded. She'd promise to come to my music

recitals, then never showed. I'd walk home and find her in bed sleeping.

It's so weird what you said about the finances. That's what has her in ruins

now.. She needs a payee and I won't do it. Was it really hard for you to do

that for her? I don't want my name to be on anything legally that has to do

with her because she has so many outstanding debts that I'm afraid of being

stuck with when she dies.

I also feel that keeping her out of an institution is maybe not in her best

interest. Plus being responsible for her finances would force me back into

regular contact.

I'm happy for you that you finally have a loving relationship in your life. I

don't have any kids but we hope to soon. Part of my reasoning for not having

kids was my failure to understand what was wrong with my mom and fear that I

have it too. (BPD, I've recently learned)

Thanks for being there and helping with this.

Jen

> > >

> > > I've read the book 'Stop Walking on Eggshells' and 'Surviving a Borderline

Parent.' They both tend to talk about how depressed and miserably unhappy BPDs

are and how we should empathize with them because their fear of abandonment is

so severe.. So I've tried to better understand and love my nada knowing her

pain is deeper than anything I could ever imagine. I try to imagine constantly

feeling self-loathing and intense loneliness like the book suggests she feels.

> > >

> > > But when I read all of your posts, it seems that these BPs don't care

about anything but having their needs met. So I wanted your opinion on a

voicemail that she left me a month ago. I want to get your impression of

whether she actually gives a d%$# about anyone besides herself. This is why

it's been so hard for me to deal with her. I keep coming back to her because of

her FOG. But is that simply a tool for manipulation? I guess I wonder whether

she ever really loved me at all. All of your posts seem to describe more than

someone with BPD. It seems like they're NPD! But I certainly don't know, just

wondering.

> > >

> > > This email was left on my cellphone 2 days after we had a 2 hour visit

with her, complete with a trip to dinner (our treat) and the bookstore, where we

bought her a book since she had no money. We were traveling through and it was

late and needed to get to my in-laws early enough that we could see them before

they went to bed.

> > >

> > > " it's mom. I hope you can hear me …….(this is a

cell phone voicemail-which I've told her many times.. No, I can't hear her)

I'm not going to be …here anymore. You said this is not an option. Well,

this is the only option, . I can't go on like this. You know… so,

you were in such a hurry to get out of here Thursday. I don't know what a hold

Debbie Emo (MIL) has on you. You were in such a hurry to get down there.

Sigh…What is it? You didn't even tell me she was going to have a garage

sale. There are so many things that I could use, so many things I need…

Like being part of a family instead of being shoved in a closet for months and

months like I just exist. This place looks the same as it did last year.

Nothing's been done. It's like…It's like you're just keeping me here

until I…until I do die. Until something happens to me. I know you don't

like to talk to me when

I'm like this. You only reward good

> behavior. Well I'm not an animal. I'm not Pavlov's dog which rewards good

behavior. I'm human. I'm not one of your dogs. I'm human and I'm hurting.

I'm so sad. I'm so sad. Because you don't want me. You're just performing a

duty to ease your conscience, like taking me out to eat and you were in such a

hurry to get out of here that night. Uh, what was it that you had to do that

you were in such a hurry? You were here for just 2 hours exactly and then you

called her on your phone to tell her when you were coming and saying " we've got

to get there. Did she call? " When she says jump,and you say " How high? " I

won't take being left alone here on the holidays.. Things have to change. Or,

uh,you're gonna be… you'll have one less relative to buy a Christmas

present for. I mean it. And I can do it. And I can't do this though. This is

the only option. Bye. "

> > >

> > > I haven't talked to her since this phone call. It's been over a month. I

reported her to her social worker so they would keep an eye on her... She's

made no serious attempts but was hospitalized for 5 days after this message for

psychiatric reasons.

> > >

> > > Thanks for any thoughts,

> > >

> > > Jen

> > >

> >

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I think I may try LC, but NC has been so nice! My brother will be in from

Eastern Europe in a few months and will be going to see her. Perhaps I'll go,

perhaps I won't. I may try to see her over the holidays. My husband encourages

me to wait until the holidays so my blinding frustration from the voicemail can

dissipate. I have such a hard time being warm to her now. The acting bit gets

harder to put on each the times she pulls this garbage. Maybe after a few

months I can act a little sweeter. I think she just thinks I'm depressed

because I don't talk about much when I'm around her. It almost hurts to smile

around her! I know that sounds kind of immature, but it really does kind of

suck to act like you like or love someone you're around when you actually can't

stand them. Do you know what I mean?

> >

> > jennifer,

> >

> > I am sorry if this sounds cruel to you but if this were my nada (who has

been cruel to me my entire life) then I would go NC if at all possible. If not

for my son and no other support system then I would have no contact with her

now. She deserves no explanation, she will make up whatever excuse she wants no

matter what you tell her - it will never be her fault in her mind. If she is

that unhealthy for you then you have to take care of yourself first, she is an

adult who made her choices. We do not automatically owe people our lives just

because they happen to be related by blood or donated DNA to produce us. Abusers

do not respond to reason (I had to learn this the hard way with my PD'd ex

hubby) and they do not understand kindness or love. They just take and take and

take until you are an empty husk and then they move on to another host organism.

If they can't bleed you dry then they just suck as they are able and take what

they can, their host never

> > dries out so they provide an endless supply. They are not like us, they

don't think like us or feel like us. PD's just give me that " ick " feeling and

all I want to do is walk away, blood relatives are not entitled to abuse or use

me any more than strangers are. This is how I feel for my son too - I don't want

him to feel obligated to care for or become host for an emotional vampire... no

matter the source of the vampirism. If people abuse us, we should be entitled to

remove them from our lives. If people are unhealthy for us, we don't need them

around. No drama, no abuse, no unecessary suffering.

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > ________________________________

> > From: jeh017 <jeh017@>

> > To: WTOAdultChildren1

> > Sent: Saturday, October 3, 2009 8:18:18 PM

> > Subject: Re: What do nadas feel? Do they love?

> >

> >

> > Thanks Katrina for that fast reply. I'm trying to figure out how my nada's

condition is different from NPD. I read 'malignant self love' a few years ago

and that fit pretty well. But there was that whole issue of love and feeling.

The question was if she could feel love or empathy. Narcissists can't, I think.

But narcissists are supposed to be pretty high functioning, which she isn't.

Then there's the hypochondriac/ Munchausen' s thing. She's nearly died multiple

times of infections that were preventable/ treatable early on. If she doesn't

love me and doesn't need me (other than to fulfill her emotional and tangible

needs) then I can finally cut myself free and live my life guilty free. But the

thought of abandoning someone who, deep down, loves me very much and would be

devastated if I abandoned her, hurts me. I think about my husband or father

leaving me. I wouldn't be able to take it. I fear she could kill herself if I

did that. My father

> > assures me that my mother is a narcissist, and narcissists typically are

unwilling to kill themselves, despite their threats.

> >

> > I know that any problem in your life that affects your day-to-day quality of

life is a big problem. Something that needs to be fixed. If depression keeps

you from leaving the house, you need medical help. If your ACL is torn and

keeps you from running, walking, biking-doing what you love-it might be time to

consider surgery. And yet, my 'Aha' moment is slow to come. My quality of life

from having a relationship with her is so poor (just for the immediate time

before-during- after visits/phone calls) that you'd think I would just " get it. "

But she's my mom. And I feel sorry for her. If I had her life, I'd kill

myself. She's all alone. No one listens to her. She's about to be kicked out

of her apartment and be institutionalized (more because of her financial issues

then mental issues.) Although her financial issues are a direct result of her

mental issues. It's so hard to walk away from it. If this were my father, I'd

sell a kidney to help

> > him. I'd move him right into my house to take care of him if he needed me

to. But with her, I can't even lift a finger to call... I really feel like a

horrible person sometimes. The rational me knows I'm not horrible. But the

daughter in me tucks her tail between her legs and says, " I could do more for

her. "

> >

> > Now I'm NC for the first time in years and wonder if that was maybe overkill

for the message she left? But the message just shows that in 30 years,

nothing's changed. Do I really want to be 50 years old and still be told that

I'm ingrateful and selfish? That I need to give away more of my soul? How much

of my soul is enough?

> >

> > The other issue, of course, is that I think I hate her. I really do. And I

can't hide it when I'm with her. I can plaster a smile on my face and buy her

stuff and have a meal with her, but it's excruciating. I feel like she only

sees me as a taxicab and a credit card. I don't want anything bad to happen to

her, but I can't stand her! From the message you can see that when I'm with

her, it shows. (obligation, easing my conscience, etc) I joined this group in

the hopes that I could better understand how to relate to her and talk to her

and keep my guard up to keep from getting hurt. But the more stories I read, it

looks like that's not going to end well for me. But going NC without

explanation seems disrespectful since she doesn't even know that she crossed the

line. Yet how can I explain why I went NC? There's no explaining it! So I'm

endlessly confused and sitting on the face as day by day goes by. Failing to

commit one way or the other as

> > to when/if I'll talk to her again. I suspect I'll probably make up with

her for Thanksgiving and Christmas, then wait until her birthday to have

anything to do with her again.

> >

> > Drama, drama, drama. No other part of my life has drama. I'm very happily

married. I have a good job and steady income (as does my husband). I have a

good relationship with siblings. Life is so easy without her. I'm enjoying my

vacation from the weekly hourlong rants about why life is so horrible. I'm

milking this vacation for all it's worth.

> >

> > Thanks for listening for the long haul. I know these are long posts. 30

years of conflicted thoughts take some time to work through!

> >

> >

> > >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

no, Jen, your nada does care if you abandon her, because who will do for her

then ?? she may try real hard to get you back, with FOG, and manipulation.

They usually dont give up very easily ( although my nada did with me...)

Jackie

Thank you so much Annie. I've said a lot today! But I'm tring to wrap my

head around this. It's hard to believe in all this time that she never

really loved me at all. Although she certainly SHOWED that she never loved

me at all! I believed what she said, not what she did.

So perhaps I might be able to take comfort in knowing that she doesn't care

if her daughter abandons her or not since she never loved me in the first

place. And she'll just move on to the next sucker. Right? Unfortunately,

that sucker will be my grandpa (her dad). He's 83 and in poor health and he

says he won't give up on her, no matter what. He doesn't blame me one bit

for being NC. But he's not willing to do it.

Thanks again, Annie.

Jen

[Guest guest]

It's weird how she sends you money and asks if you need money when she's in a

good mood, then uses it against you when she's in a bad mood. Saying you have

it so much better than she had it. It's like she teases you with it and then

slaps you across the face with it. You're right about the weapon part! How

cruel.

>

> I think nadas love, but only to the extent, as we all do, that we are capable.

In my nada's case, as in many others here, they were not given love so they

don't know how to give love in a healthy sense. Her father incested her from

the age of two and he was an alcoholic. Certaiinly no nurturing, love, or

anything even human there! Her sense of abandonment, in the emotional sense for

sure, was stunning. She was treated like a field hand as soon as she was old

enough to go out and work them. She was not alone. All of her brothers and

sisters were treated like that. When she had appendicitis, she was told to keep

working by her father despite being doubled over in pain. It had ruptured

according to nada and was about to burst by the time her one brother fought

their father and stubbornly carried her to the local doctor in town. From then

on her brother was her angel.

>

> Her mother was, according to all the family, a saint who lived her faith, and

gave her last slice of bread she was supposed to eat to a begger if he came by.

She would do without. She would sacrifice. She would volunteer at the church.

She would be in there prayng every day for her family. Yet she was oblivious to

what her husband was doing to their own daughters - oblivious to his

drunkenness. Of course they couldn't divorce as that was against her Catholic

religion at the time. Instead she burned candles and prayed - hoping that that

was enough to change things I suppose.

>

> Yes she sends a card and $ for my birthday, Easter and Christmas. She always

asks when she's in a good mood, if I need money, but it is often met with 'I

suffered more than you - you're a MILLIONAIRE compared to what I was " . It's

always 'ask me how I suffered " or " I've suffered and do suffer more than you " no

matter what it is. I feel like saying it is not a competition, Mother! She

uses her tremendous amount of money as a weapon.

>

> So yes I think they love - just not in a healthy way.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Jackie,

How are you, hope you are well, sorry not been on in a while, got caught up with

life and moving and things.

Im still no contact from my nada its been 6 months now, although I still feel

bad.

Hope you are well.

Love x

________________________________

To: WTOAdultChildren1

Sent: Sunday, October 4, 2009 4:56:58 PM

Subject: Re: Re: What do nadas feel? Do they love?

 

no, Jen, your nada does care if you abandon her, because who will do for her

then ?? she may try real hard to get you back, with FOG, and manipulation.

They usually dont give up very easily ( although my nada did with me...)

Jackie

Thank you so much Annie. I've said a lot today! But I'm tring to wrap my

head around this. It's hard to believe in all this time that she never

really loved me at all. Although she certainly SHOWED that she never loved

me at all! I believed what she said, not what she did.

So perhaps I might be able to take comfort in knowing that she doesn't care

if her daughter abandons her or not since she never loved me in the first

place. And she'll just move on to the next sucker. Right? Unfortunately,

that sucker will be my grandpa (her dad). He's 83 and in poor health and he

says he won't give up on her, no matter what. He doesn't blame me one bit

for being NC. But he's not willing to do it.

Thanks again, Annie.

Jen

[Guest guest]

everythings been fine, and quiet here. Nada has not tried to contact me, so

it's been 7 months NC :-)

Jackie

Hi Jackie,

How are you, hope you are well, sorry not been on in a while, got caught up

with life and moving and things.

Im still no contact from my nada its been 6 months now, although I still

feel bad.

Hope you are well.

Love x