Guest guest Posted November 10, 2004 Report Share Posted November 10, 2004 I know this applys to many of us. Ode to Special Moms (by Erma Bombeck) Most women become mothers by accident, some by choice, a few by social pressures and a couple by habit. This year, nearly 100,000 women will become mothers of handicapped children. Did you ever wonder how mothers of handicapped children are chosen? Somehow I visualize God hovering over Earth selecting his instruments for propagation with great care and deliberation. As he observes, he instructs his angels to make notes in a giant ledger. " Armstrong, Beth, son, patron saint, . Forrest, Marjorie, daughter, patron saint, Cecilia. " Rudledge, , twins, patron saint, give her Gerard. He's used to profanity. " Finally, he passes a name to an angel and smiles, " Give her a handicapped child. " The angel is curious. " Why this one, God? She's so happy. " " Exactly, " says God. " Could I give a handicapped child to a mother who does not know laughter? That would be cruel. " " But has she patience? " asks the angel. " I don't want her to have too much patience or she will drown in a sea of self-pity and despair. Once the shock and resentment wear off, she'll handle it. " I watched her today. She has that feeling of self and independence that is so rare and so necessary in a mother. You see, the child I'm going to give her has his own world. She has to make it live in her world, and that's not going to be easy. " " But, Lord, I don't think she even believes in you. " God smiles. " No matter. I can fix that. This one is perfect. She has just enough selfishness. " The angel gasps, " Selfishness? Is that a virtue? " God nods. " If she can't separate herself from the child occasionally, she'll never survive. Yes, here is a woman whom I will bless with a child less than perfect. She doesn't realize it yet, but she is to be envied. She will never take for granted a 'spoken word.' She will never consider a 'step' ordinary. When her child says 'Momma' for the first time, she will be present at a miracle and know it! When she describes a tree or a sunset to her blind child, she will see it as few people ever see my creations. " I will permit her to see clearly the things I see...ignorance, cruelty, prejudice...and allow her to rise above them. She will never be alone. I will be at her side every minute of every day of her life, because she is doing my work as surely as she is here by my side. " " And what about her patron saint? " asks the angel, pen poised midair. God smiles. " A mirror will suffice. " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 10, 2004 Report Share Posted November 10, 2004 I just sat and cried like a baby after reading that... I dont even know what to say but thankyou for sharing it. I guess I was pretty deep in that " self pity & despair " - thats why I've checked in here so often. That was perfectly suited to how I was feeling! Mark mother to Sara 8 months CHargEr, Grant 4, 3 > I know this applys to many of us. > > > > > Ode to Special Moms > > > (by Erma Bombeck) > > Most women become mothers by accident, some by choice, a few by social > pressures and a couple by habit. This year, nearly 100,000 women will > become mothers of handicapped children. Did you ever wonder how mothers > of handicapped children are chosen? > > Somehow I visualize God hovering over Earth selecting his instruments > for propagation with great care and deliberation. As he observes, he > instructs his angels to make notes in a giant ledger. > " Armstrong, Beth, son, patron saint, . Forrest, Marjorie, > daughter, patron saint, Cecilia. > " Rudledge, , twins, patron saint, give her Gerard. He's used to > profanity. " > Finally, he passes a name to an angel and smiles, " Give her a > handicapped child. " > > The angel is curious. " Why this one, God? She's so happy. " > > " Exactly, " says God. " Could I give a handicapped child to a mother who > does not know laughter? That would be cruel. " > > " But has she patience? " asks the angel. > > " I don't want her to have too much patience or she will drown in a sea > of self-pity and despair. Once the shock and resentment wear off, she'll > handle it. > " I watched her today. She has that feeling of self and independence that > is so rare and so necessary in a mother. You see, the child I'm going to > give her has his own world. She has to make it live in her world, and > that's not going to be easy. " > > " But, Lord, I don't think she even believes in you. " > > God smiles. " No matter. I can fix that. This one is perfect. She has > just enough selfishness. " > > The angel gasps, " Selfishness? Is that a virtue? " > > God nods. " If she can't separate herself from the child occasionally, > she'll never survive. Yes, here is a woman whom I will bless with a > child less than perfect. She doesn't realize it yet, but she is to be > envied. She will never take for granted a 'spoken word.' She will never > consider a 'step' ordinary. When her child says 'Momma' for the first > time, she will be present at a miracle and know it! When she describes a > tree or a sunset to her blind child, she will see it as few people ever > see my creations. > " I will permit her to see clearly the things I see...ignorance, cruelty, > prejudice...and allow her to rise above them. She will never be alone. I > will be at her side every minute of every day of her life, because she > is doing my work as surely as she is here by my side. " > > " And what about her patron saint? " asks the angel, pen poised midair. > > God smiles. " A mirror will suffice. " > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 10, 2004 Report Share Posted November 10, 2004 Loved it!! I'm still crying Thank you for sharing it- Kim A From: Gilbert, A. To: CHARGE@...: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 09:38:16 -0500Subject: FW: (no subject)I know this applys to many of us. Ode to Special Moms(by Erma Bombeck)Most women become mothers by accident, some by choice, a few by socialpressures and a couple by habit. This year, nearly 100,000 women willbecome mothers of handicapped children. Did you ever wonder how mothersof handicapped children are chosen?Somehow I visualize God hovering over Earth selecting his instrumentsfor propagation with great care and deliberation. As he observes, heinstructs his angels to make notes in a giant ledger. " Armstrong, Beth, son, patron saint, . Forrest, Marjorie,daughter, patron saint, Cecilia. " Rudledge, , twins, patron saint, give her Gerard. He's used toprofanity. " Finally, he passes a name to an angel and smiles, " Give her ahandicapped child. " The angel is curious. " Why this one, God? She's so happy. " " Exactly, " says God. " Could I give a handicapped child to a mother whodoes not know laughter? That would be cruel. " " But has she patience? " asks the angel. " I don't want her to have too much patience or she will drown in a seaof self-pity and despair. Once the shock and resentment wear off, she'llhandle it. " I watched her today. She has that feeling of self and independence thatis so rare and so necessary in a mother. You see, the child I'm going togive her has his own world. She has to make it live in her world, andthat's not going to be easy. " " But, Lord, I don't think she even believes in you. " God smiles. " No matter. I can fix that. This one is perfect. She hasjust enough selfishness. " The angel gasps, " Selfishness? Is that a virtue? " God nods. " If she can't separate herself from the child occasionally,she'll never survive. Yes, here is a woman whom I will bless with achild less than perfect. She doesn't realize it yet, but she is to beenvied. She will never take for granted a 'spoken word.' She will neverconsider a 'step' ordinary. When her child says 'Momma' for the firsttime, she will be present at a miracle and know it! When she describes atree or a sunset to her blind child, she will see it as few people eversee my creations. " I will permit her to see clearly the things I see...ignorance, cruelty,prejudice...and allow her to rise above them. She will never be alone. Iwill be at her side every minute of every day of her life, because sheis doing my work as surely as she is here by my side. " " And what about her patron saint? " asks the angel, pen poised midair.God smiles. " A mirror will suffice. " [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]Membership of this email support groups does not constitute membership in the CHARGE Syndrome Foundation.For information about the CHARGE Syndrome Foundation or to become a member (and get the newsletter)please contact marion@... or visit the CHARGE Syndrome Foundation web page at http://www.chargesyndrome.org7th International CHARGE Syndrome Conference, Miami Beach, Florida, July 22-24, 2005. Information will be available at our websitewww.chargesyndrome.org or by calling 1-. In Canada, you may contact CHARGE Syndrome Canada at 1- (families), visit www.chargesyndrome.ca, or email info@.... Thank you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 5, 2009 Report Share Posted November 5, 2009 I've heard that the opposite of love is not hate, but indifference. Love and hate both enmesh you with another person, and perhaps fear enmeshes you as well. I'm hoping to get to the point where I simply do not care one way or the other if my nada loves me or hates me, praises me to other people or drags my name through the mud to other people, I don't want it to matter. My Sister loves me, and her boy and his wife, and I hope their little boy, my great-nephew, will love me, and that's all that really matters to me. I want to feel pity for my nada from the safety of emotional distance, without feeling any guilt for protecting myself from her emotional abuse. I am striving for " compassionate detachment. " Having been in no contact with my nada for about 6 months now, I think I'm starting to feel more neutrally about her, more detached. Here's hoping that the great physical distance you'll have from your nada will lessen your fear of her and let you have a joyful and wonderful adventure with your husband and your children that has nothing whatsoever to do with your toxic nada. -Annie > > Most of you know that I have been NC with nada for about a year. She still > tries to reestablish contact, still sends letters and emails and leaves > messages, but she hasn't heard the sound of my voice since last Christmas. > I have my suspicions about some family members giving her information and > maybe even pictures of my kids, but I have her blocked off of our family > website, facebook, ect. > > Nada plays the poor me card, her mean old daughter cut her out of her life > and took her precious grandbaaaaabiiiiess from her, and she just doesn't > know why. must be crazy or depressed or need help. Or maybe she is > just a horrible person. She uses this to get her flying monkeys to help her > play the game. > > My question is for those of you who have been NC long term. > > At what point do you just give up and move on. It bothers me that she > probably has more information about my family than I want her to have > (zero, lol). At the same time, my family will be moving overseas next year, > and at that point the threat of physical interaction with nada will be > greatly diminish. Nonexistent even. > > Is this just a control/power issue for me, that she might see a picture of > my kids, or learn something about us from another family members blog? I > could be totally hardass about it and cut even more people out of my life, > and make demands, but I'm getting to the point where that doesn't feel > right anymore. I've lost a lot of the terror that came with the initial NC. > I don't want her bothering us, of course, but I no longer worry about her > snatching my kids from their school, or showing up at my house (much. there > will probably always be bad days). I am and always will be careful and > vigilant, but I used to absolutely panic on a daily basis. > > My only fear is that by keeping tabs on us she would try to get hold of my > kids at some point when they are adults and manipulate them. Of course by > the time they are of age I plan on having a frank discussion with them > about nada's illness. Right now we just never mention her and change the > subject if she comes up (my children are 6 and under). > > I feel like I ride a rollar coaster with this issue. Up and down. Wanting > her gone and cut off from knowing we exist at all, and just not giving a > damn and wanting to move on and keep the relationships i have left with my > family, even though they may be sympathetic to nada. > > What did you do? > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 5, 2009 Report Share Posted November 5, 2009 yes, indifference is the opposite of love... I usually feel nothing either way where my nada is concerned, but sometimes the pain of knowing I wasn't loved still creeps in....and knowing my nada wanted me dead and tried to kill me ....I have 4 siblings ( well, 3 since one died) and I can honestly say none of them love me, nor each other....I am closest to the sister who is 3 years older than I.. my oldest brother sometimes talks to me, but wont talk to our other sisters. Nada made sure we didn't like each other..and unfortunately that is still in place. My oldest brother is still the golden child, and still deeply enmeshed with nada, so I expect he will soon stop talking to me as well since my " bad child " status has increased. My oldest sister has BPD, but the waif type, not the witch/queen our nada is...my other sister is very narcissistic ( just like my brother) but neither have the meanness that usually goes along with NP. This is what I know..my husband loves me dearly as does my dog :-) Jackie I've heard that the opposite of love is not hate, but indifference. Love and hate both enmesh you with another person, and perhaps fear enmeshes you as well. I'm hoping to get to the point where I simply do not care one way or the other if my nada loves me or hates me, praises me to other people or drags my name through the mud to other people, I don't want it to matter. My Sister loves me, and her boy and his wife, and I hope their little boy, my great-nephew, will love me, and that's all that really matters to me. I want to feel pity for my nada from the safety of emotional distance, without feeling any guilt for protecting myself from her emotional abuse. I am striving for " compassionate detachment. " Having been in no contact with my nada for about 6 months now, I think I'm starting to feel more neutrally about her, more detached. Here's hoping that the great physical distance you'll have from your nada will lessen your fear of her and let you have a joyful and wonderful adventure with your husband and your children that has nothing whatsoever to do with your toxic nada. -Annie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 5, 2009 Report Share Posted November 5, 2009 I have been NC for 2.5 years. I can relate to the flying monkeys, however, I can tell you that with time, the relationship that nada has with others starts to fall apart. She still has contact with my daughter. When I went NC with Nada, I sent her to her fathers to protect her. She started to manipulate the step mother, and bam, nada bought my daughter a lap top and a phone (beind my back through step mom) to keep her in her web. My ex husband understands about my mother and tried to stop the communication, however, he works alot, and Stepmom, never had to deal with BPD (she has this amazing relationship with her mother). Nada has manipulated her into thinking it is all me, as well as my daughter. Daughter, now 17, does not want to come back, thinking that I am saying all these horrible things about her gran gran is a lie, and that she would be allowed to see her, which would mean she would be in our lives again. Hard choice. I have two children here, we have an normal life since going NC with nada. So, talked to exH about getting my daughter therapy last week to help her understand. I would be glad to pay for it, and fly up and be in attendance. This has been almost one year. Through all of this, I have went no contact with sisters until recently. One sister finally is trying to go NC. She is experiencing the emails, phone calls etc. Other sister moved her up closer to her, rented her and her BF an apt, she up a left last week and left them holding the bag. So, I have a feeling that with time, the BPD will always show its ugly head, best not to be around to blame. My older sister said to me she is going to die alone, she has ruined the relationship with all of her children. When I went NC I was the bad guy, mean that I would do this... Pleaseeee. Now the spot light is on who it needs to be on. michelle ________________________________ To: WTOAdultChildren1 Sent: Thu, November 5, 2009 10:35:33 AM Subject: (no subject)  Most of you know that I have been NC with nada for about a year. She still tries to reestablish contact, still sends letters and emails and leaves messages, but she hasn't heard the sound of my voice since last Christmas. I have my suspicions about some family members giving her information and maybe even pictures of my kids, but I have her blocked off of our family website, facebook, ect. Nada plays the poor me card, her mean old daughter cut her out of her life and took her precious grandbaaaaabiiiiess from her, and she just doesn't know why. must be crazy or depressed or need help. Or maybe she is just a horrible person. She uses this to get her flying monkeys to help her play the game. My question is for those of you who have been NC long term. At what point do you just give up and move on. It bothers me that she probably has more information about my family than I want her to have (zero, lol). At the same time, my family will be moving overseas next year, and at that point the threat of physical interaction with nada will be greatly diminish. Nonexistent even. Is this just a control/power issue for me, that she might see a picture of my kids, or learn something about us from another family members blog? I could be totally hardass about it and cut even more people out of my life, and make demands, but I'm getting to the point where that doesn't feel right anymore. I've lost a lot of the terror that came with the initial NC. I don't want her bothering us, of course, but I no longer worry about her snatching my kids from their school, or showing up at my house (much. there will probably always be bad days). I am and always will be careful and vigilant, but I used to absolutely panic on a daily basis. My only fear is that by keeping tabs on us she would try to get hold of my kids at some point when they are adults and manipulate them. Of course by the time they are of age I plan on having a frank discussion with them about nada's illness. Right now we just never mention her and change the subject if she comes up (my children are 6 and under). I feel like I ride a rollar coaster with this issue. Up and down. Wanting her gone and cut off from knowing we exist at all, and just not giving a damn and wanting to move on and keep the relationships i have left with my family, even though they may be sympathetic to nada. What did you do? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 5, 2009 Report Share Posted November 5, 2009 So do we, Jackie!!! <3 This is what I know..my > husband loves me dearly as does my dog :-) > > Jackie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 6, 2009 Report Share Posted November 6, 2009 thank you, . that is so sweet and means a lot to me :-) Jackie So do we, Jackie!!! <3 This is what I know..my > husband loves me dearly as does my dog :-) > > Jackie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 6, 2009 Report Share Posted November 6, 2009 Dogs are really, really smart, Jackie! And clearly, your hubby is, too! And your horses..... Suzy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 6, 2009 Report Share Posted November 6, 2009 thanks Suzy :-) This dog will NOT let nada touch him LOL drives her nuts !! he will not go to her, he will not let her go to him... Jackie Dogs are really, really smart, Jackie! And clearly, your hubby is, too! And your horses..... Suzy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 6, 2009 Report Share Posted November 6, 2009 I love it that animals can sense when a person doesn't really like them or has ill-will toward their master. Dogs are more sensible; my cats were very perverse about that kind of thing, though: they would come and entwine themselves around anyone who visited me who had told me that they didn't particularly like cats, and yet they would run from people who came over and cooed over them and wanted to pet/cuddle them. Silly cats! I do miss them, still. -Annie > > thanks Suzy :-) This dog will NOT let nada touch him LOL drives her nuts > !! he will not go to her, he will not let her go to him... > > Jackie > > > > > Dogs are really, really smart, Jackie! And clearly, your hubby is, too! And > your horses..... > > Suzy > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 6, 2009 Report Share Posted November 6, 2009 I just wonder if this dog is ultra sensitive to my feelings, and is taking his attitude from me... I'm sure he can sense my tenseness when we visit nada and fada...and Rocky always used to like fada, but the last time we visited ( oct 2007), he didn't like fada either, so I think he may be taking his cues from my subconscious... hm, I've only had barn cats, and they hide whenever someone comes..they wont let any strangers touch them...but they are SO good and sweet at the vets office !! odd ats :-) Jackie I love it that animals can sense when a person doesn't really like them or has ill-will toward their master. Dogs are more sensible; my cats were very perverse about that kind of thing, though: they would come and entwine themselves around anyone who visited me who had told me that they didn't particularly like cats, and yet they would run from people who came over and cooed over them and wanted to pet/cuddle them. Silly cats! I do miss them, still. -Annie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 6, 2009 Report Share Posted November 6, 2009 Oh Annie, my former cat was like that. He saw it as his ambassadorial mission to convert anyone who didn't see themselves as a cat fancier. He loved everyone, but he persisted with one of my closest friends who decidely loved dogs and did not like cats. I'll never forget the day we were sitting and chatting and before she knew it he slowly worked his way onto her lap and she was petting him before she even realized what she was doing. I pointed it out to her and she looked down with surprise to see him in her lap. From then on, she was comfortable with him - but no other cat - ever. I think he had a little bit of dog in him, too. And I think your're right about dogs - they have a real sense when something is amiss with someone. Suzy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 6, 2009 Report Share Posted November 6, 2009 That's so sweet: your kitty wanted your friend to pet him so much that he " sneaked " into her lap. Lol! -Annie > > Oh Annie, my former cat was like that. He saw it as his ambassadorial mission to convert anyone who didn't see themselves as a cat fancier. He loved everyone, but he persisted with one of my closest friends who decidely loved dogs and did not like cats. I'll never forget the day we were sitting and chatting and before she knew it he slowly worked his way onto her lap and she was petting him before she even realized what she was doing. I pointed it out to her and she looked down with surprise to see him in her lap. From then on, she was comfortable with him - but no other cat - ever. I think he had a little bit of dog in him, too. > > And I think your're right about dogs - they have a real sense when something is amiss with someone. > > Suzy > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 6, 2009 Report Share Posted November 6, 2009 Yes, maybe that's the way it works: your dog picks up on your feelings about your nada. Wouldn't surprise me, dogs are very attuned to their person's feelings. And yes, cats do have different personalities and vary in how friendly they are. My older cat was a " momma's girl " and mostly only affectionate to me (and visiting cat-haters) and my younger cat was like a " friendly ghost. " He liked people but was nervous, but once he lost his fear of a person he was all over them. -Annie > > I just wonder if this dog is ultra sensitive to my feelings, and is taking > his attitude from me... I'm sure he can sense my tenseness when we visit > nada and fada...and Rocky always used to like fada, but the last time we > visited ( oct 2007), he didn't like fada either, so I think he may be taking > his cues from my subconscious... > > hm, I've only had barn cats, and they hide whenever someone comes..they wont > let any strangers touch them...but they are SO good and sweet at the vets > office !! odd ats :-) > > Jackie > > > > I love it that animals can sense when a person doesn't really like them or > has ill-will toward their master. > > Dogs are more sensible; my cats were very perverse about that kind of thing, > though: they would come and entwine themselves around anyone who visited me > who had told me that they didn't particularly like cats, and yet they would > run from people who came over and cooed over them and wanted to pet/cuddle > them. > > Silly cats! I do miss them, still. > > -Annie > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 6, 2009 Report Share Posted November 6, 2009 My dog is very friendly and happy-go-lucky; she loves to socialize with people,so on the rare occasion when she just doesn't want to hang out with someone or say hello,I pay attention--it's so unlike her.I've wondered what goes on with her when she decides to avoid somebody because a couple of times when she's done that I wasn't getting any particularly bad vibes from the person myself. I read recently that,in a similar way to how dogs can smell so much better than we humans can,they also see faster than we do: a dog's optical time frame runs much faster and accurately than a human's.In seconds,they see subtle body behavior cues in others (animals or humans) that we humans are literally " too slow " to see.That is one reason why dog fights seem (to humans) to break out with such lightning speed with no discernable cause--the dogs have actually communicated something between them so fast that we missed it,but they didn't.I think that when my dog doesn't like someone,it must be because she can read aggressive subtleties in their body language in seconds that are completely lost on me: I see a smiling face,but she has quickly seen the brief threatening frown before the smile that I missed; a potentially aggressive twitch of the arm that I missed--in sum surely lots of cues I didn't even notice. I read in Desmond ' " Catwatching " years ago that cats tend to home in on the very people who don't like cats because they immediately perceive a direct gaze from a total or relative stranger as threatening--and people who are afraid of or don't like cats usually don't stare directly at the cat or if they do,they don't hold the gaze and often look away in the hope that the cat will just leave them alone.But to a cat,that means the person must not be a threat and so ironically they are more likely to approach such a " non threatening " person than they would a stranger who is cooing at them in a loving tone of voice but staring intently at them: they see the gesture (staring) and process that as meaningful instead of relating safety to the loving voice of the person who is staring them down as they coo.Someone who is ignoring them seems to a cat to be much friendlier! > > > > thanks Suzy :-) This dog will NOT let nada touch him LOL drives her nuts > > !! he will not go to her, he will not let her go to him... > > > > Jackie > > > > > > > > > > Dogs are really, really smart, Jackie! And clearly, your hubby is, too! And > > your horses..... > > > > Suzy > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 6, 2009 Report Share Posted November 6, 2009 That is fascinating! That makes so much sense RE dogs perceiving visual cues ( " micro expressions " ) faster than humans. I'm betting that people who are feeling hostility or fear must exude a scent that a dog can detect, as well. And the whole thing about cats perceiving the stare of a stranger as threatening seems logical as well (even if it is an adoring stare.) Very cool! Thanks for posting that info, . I've heard of dogs that can detect incipient epileptic fits in their owners, and dogs that can smell cancerous tumors, so I wonder if " pd-sniffing dogs " could be trained to protect us from nasty pd people? -Annie > > > > > > thanks Suzy :-) This dog will NOT let nada touch him LOL drives her nuts > > > !! he will not go to her, he will not let her go to him... > > > > > > Jackie > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dogs are really, really smart, Jackie! And clearly, your hubby is, too! And > > > your horses..... > > > > > > Suzy > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 6, 2009 Report Share Posted November 6, 2009 lol,Annie,I would like nothing more than to take early retirement from my current job to pursue a different career track with my beloved dog...she's extremely intelligent and oh so trainable...hhmm the possibilities...this could put a brand new spin on the concept of " service dog " ...saving the world from the " natural disaster " of PDs! Thanks for the chuckle, > > > > > > > > thanks Suzy :-) This dog will NOT let nada touch him LOL drives her nuts > > > > !! he will not go to her, he will not let her go to him... > > > > > > > > Jackie > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dogs are really, really smart, Jackie! And clearly, your hubby is, too! And > > > > your horses..... > > > > > > > > Suzy > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 7, 2009 Report Share Posted November 7, 2009 A former rather sociopathic ex-bf of mine used to have staring contests with my cat. He would eventually win but it took quite a while (minutes) and it was surely a sign of trouble that (1) he seemed to take it as an ego challenge for an animal to stare at him and had to stare it down and (2) that my cat felt the need to stare at him like that. Oh just a random cat note - cats love it if you look at them and slowly blink, they will blink back at you the same way. It tells them you are friendly. > > > > > > > > thanks Suzy :-) This dog will NOT let nada touch him LOL drives her nuts > > > > !! he will not go to her, he will not let her go to him... > > > > > > > > Jackie > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dogs are really, really smart, Jackie! And clearly, your hubby is, too! And > > > > your horses..... > > > > > > > > Suzy > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 7, 2009 Report Share Posted November 7, 2009 I don't believe dogs " see faster " but they are much more observant and do notice even tiny subtle movements that humans miss. Dogs rely mostly on body language ( as do horses, and most animals for that matter) so a flick of an ear to a horse and dog is noticed while humans ( that's not a sign we watch for) miss it completely. a dog fight " out of now where " was a slightly raised lip or a low vocal that we didn't hear..there's always some warning, the dog stiffens up, raises hackles, stares...most humans are more " into " the spoken word more so than body language. Dogs can also smell so much better than us, and pick up traces of alcohol, drugs, tobacco... I have heard that about why cats go to those who dont like cats, and you are probably right...those who like cats will look at the cat, maybe try to coax it to them...those who dont like cats will ignore the cat... Jackie My dog is very friendly and happy-go-lucky; she loves to socialize with people,so on the rare occasion when she just doesn't want to hang out with someone or say hello,I pay attention--it's so unlike her.I've wondered what goes on with her when she decides to avoid somebody because a couple of times when she's done that I wasn't getting any particularly bad vibes from the person myself. I read recently that,in a similar way to how dogs can smell so much better than we humans can,they also see faster than we do: a dog's optical time frame runs much faster and accurately than a human's.In seconds,they see subtle body behavior cues in others (animals or humans) that we humans are literally " too slow " to see.That is one reason why dog fights seem (to humans) to break out with such lightning speed with no discernable cause--the dogs have actually communicated something between them so fast that we missed it,but they didn't.I think that when my dog doesn't like someone,it must be because she can read aggressive subtleties in their body language in seconds that are completely lost on me: I see a smiling face,but she has quickly seen the brief threatening frown before the smile that I missed; a potentially aggressive twitch of the arm that I missed--in sum surely lots of cues I didn't even notice. I read in Desmond ' " Catwatching " years ago that cats tend to home in on the very people who don't like cats because they immediately perceive a direct gaze from a total or relative stranger as threatening--and people who are afraid of or don't like cats usually don't stare directly at the cat or if they do,they don't hold the gaze and often look away in the hope that the cat will just leave them alone.But to a cat,that means the person must not be a threat and so ironically they are more likely to approach such a " non threatening " person than they would a stranger who is cooing at them in a loving tone of voice but staring intently at them: they see the gesture (staring) and process that as meaningful instead of relating safety to the loving voice of the person who is staring them down as they coo.Someone who is ignoring them seems to a cat to be much friendlier! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 7, 2009 Report Share Posted November 7, 2009 Cool, I'll give the slow blink a try at the very next opportunity! -Annie > > > > > > > > > > thanks Suzy :-) This dog will NOT let nada touch him LOL drives her nuts > > > > > !! he will not go to her, he will not let her go to him... > > > > > > > > > > Jackie > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dogs are really, really smart, Jackie! And clearly, your hubby is, too! And > > > > > your horses..... > > > > > > > > > > Suzy > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 7, 2009 Report Share Posted November 7, 2009 Well, Annie, you've already designed the " collar, " now you just have to work on developing the dog training program - sort of a two-pronged approach! Suzy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 8, 2009 Report Share Posted November 8, 2009 ,you're so right about slowly blinking--and it really does work! > > > > > > > > > > thanks Suzy :-) This dog will NOT let nada touch him LOL drives her nuts > > > > > !! he will not go to her, he will not let her go to him... > > > > > > > > > > Jackie > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dogs are really, really smart, Jackie! And clearly, your hubby is, too! And > > > > > your horses..... > > > > > > > > > > Suzy > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 8, 2009 Report Share Posted November 8, 2009 I got that idea from the fact that dogs have a higher " flicker fusion " frequency than humans,which was touched on (not in much depth) in this veterinary article on canine/feline visual perception: http://www.vin.com/VINDBPub/SearchPB/Proceedings/PR05000/PR00515.htm EG: The frequency at which a rapidly flickering light appears to be constantly illuminated (flicker fusion) provides insight into the functional characteristics of an animal's rods and cones. Flicker fusion is crudely correlated with the rapidity with which the retina can up-date an image, and generally the more rapidly a species naturally moves through its environment the higher its flicker fusion frequency. Some falcons have flicker fusion rates in excess of 100 Hz.a Because dogs can detect flicker at 70 to >80 Hz,8 a television screen which is updated 60 times/sec and appears as a fluidly moving story line to most humans may appear to rapidly flicker to a dog. Another description of how " flicker fusion " works (although the rest of this article is mostly about people driving too fast in their cars!): Thousands of people and millions of wild and domestic animals die every year in this country because motorists lack the perceptual adaptations of birds.1 Motorists cannot avoid accidents because they are incapable of reacting quickly enough when moving at high speed. Their flicker fusion frequency—the point at which an animal sees an increasingly rapid flashing light as a continuous beam—is too slow. Humans have a flicker fusion frequency of 60 Hz (60 cycles per second); in domestic pigeons, flicker fusion frequency rises to 100 Hz. Birds of prey, whose survival hinges on quickness, are thought to have an even higher flicker fusion frequency than pigeons—consider, for example, the northern goshawk, which lives in deep forests and earns its living by chasing down other birds. Without benefit of road markings, warning signs, traffic lights, and speed limits, the goshawk zooms around its wild neighborhood in relative safety. As it hotly pursues a ruffed grouse or wood duck, the goshawk may fly just above the ground at 40 miles an hour, mirroring the unpredictable twists and turns of its prey. Although the goshawk's wingspan approaches four feet, superb vision and instant reflexes help it avoid collisions with countless branches. Were a goshawk to watch a movie, its high flicker fusion frequency might cause it to see jerky rather than smooth motion, similar to what we see in very old movies, which run at a slower frame rate than modern ones.2 This visual adaptation is thought to give birds greater resolving power while moving. A goshawk flying at high speed can probably perceive an obstacle, and react to it by veering away, in a fraction of the time it would take a motorist to avoid an accident. If the goshawk were subject to the inferior perceptual abilities of humans, it would end up splattered against a tree trunk. http://pages.cthome.net/rwinkler/fff.htm But what initially got me interested in " flicker fusion " at all was a book review in the New York Times of andra Horowitz' book " Inside of A Dog " (what dogs see smell and know): http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/13/books/review/Schine-t.html?_r=1 An excerpt from the review (I haven't yet read the book): A dog's vision affects its sense of time, too. Dogs have a higher " flicker fusion " rate than we do, which is the rate at which retinal cells can process incoming light, or " the number of snapshots of the world that the eye takes in every second. " This is one of the reasons dogs respond so well to subtle human facial reactions: " They pay attention to the slivers of time between our blinks. " ) It also helps explain those *eerily accurate balletic leaps after tennis balls and Frisbees, but Horowitz lets us see the implications beyond our human-centric fascination with our pets. This is more than a game of fetch; it is a profound, existential realization: " One could say that dogs see the world faster than we do, but what they really do is see just a bit more world in every second. " That just made me wonder if my dog picks up on visual cues that I miss--or if that might be an explanation for her not liking some people.Maybe so,maybe not... I'm not a professional dog trainer--you are and you've seen much more dog behavior than I have Goodness knows what in the world my dog smells on people she has an instant aversion to! (I don't think I want to know,though) > > I don't believe dogs " see faster " but they are much more observant and do > notice even tiny subtle movements that humans miss. Dogs rely mostly on > body language ( as do horses, and most animals for that matter) so a flick > of an ear to a horse and dog is noticed while humans ( that's not a sign we > watch for) miss it completely. a dog fight " out of now where " was a > slightly raised lip or a low vocal that we didn't hear..there's always some > warning, the dog stiffens up, raises hackles, stares...most humans are more > " into " the spoken word more so than body language. Dogs can also smell so > much better than us, and pick up traces of alcohol, drugs, tobacco... > > I have heard that about why cats go to those who dont like cats, and you are > probably right...those who like cats will look at the cat, maybe try to coax > it to them...those who dont like cats will ignore the cat... > > Jackie > > > > My dog is very friendly and happy-go-lucky; she loves to socialize with > people,so on the rare occasion when she just doesn't want to hang out with > someone or say hello,I pay attention--it's so unlike her.I've wondered what > goes on with her when she decides to avoid somebody because a couple of > times when she's done that I wasn't getting any particularly bad vibes from > the person myself. > > I read recently that,in a similar way to how dogs can smell so much > better than we humans can,they also see faster than we do: a dog's optical > time frame runs much faster and accurately than a human's.In seconds,they > see subtle body behavior cues in others (animals or humans) that we humans > are literally " too slow " to see.That is one reason why dog fights seem (to > humans) to break out with such lightning speed with no discernable > cause--the dogs have actually communicated something between them so fast > that we missed it,but they didn't.I think that when my dog doesn't like > someone,it must be because she can read aggressive subtleties in their body > language in seconds that are completely lost on me: I see a smiling face,but > she has quickly seen the brief threatening frown before the smile that I > missed; a potentially aggressive twitch of the arm that I missed--in sum > surely lots of cues I didn't even notice. > > I read in Desmond ' " Catwatching " years ago that cats tend to > home in on the very people who don't like cats because they immediately > perceive a direct gaze from a total or relative stranger as threatening--and > people who are afraid of or don't like cats usually don't stare directly at > the cat or if they do,they don't hold the gaze and often look away in the > hope that the cat will just leave them alone.But to a cat,that means the > person must not be a threat and so ironically they are more likely to > approach such a " non threatening " person than they would a stranger who is > cooing at them in a loving tone of voice but staring intently at them: they > see the gesture (staring) and process that as meaningful instead of relating > safety to the loving voice of the person who is staring them down as they > coo.Someone who is ignoring them seems to a cat to be much friendlier! > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 8, 2009 Report Share Posted November 8, 2009 what I question about this is...I have had two dogs, my current dog and his 1/2 sister who died , sit and watch TV. They will watch any program or commercial that features a dog or cat. Any other animal they are not interested in, so it isn't just the motion they are seeing. Rocky reacts to cartoon dogs as well LOL. He has been in the kitchen, looks at the TV, and races to it, barking because there is a dog on TV...he has seen horses on TV, and has no reaction to them.. Even if I have the TV muted, they will still watch dogs and cats on TV, and not loose interest, so they only thing I can say is they are watching TV! According to this article, they would not be able to see images. When I am really bored I will put Snow Dogs or 8 below in the DVD and watch the dogs watch TV...its funny..they will loose interest when the humans are on the screen, but get their attention back when the dogs are there. Dogs do have more rods then cones which is part of the reason they see so much better in dim light they we do, and also explains why they dont have the range of color perception as we have. Since dogs are a pack animal, body language is a very important key to their survival and well being, so dogs are naturally more attuned to body language in their own kind as well as others. I believe they may very well be able to process what they see faster then we do, their lives may depend on it, and humans have lost so much not needing to worry about hunting for food or keeping alive and away from predators...They are now training dogs to smell some forms of cancers !! It's just amazing how much better they can smell then we can... Jackie I got that idea from the fact that dogs have a higher " flicker fusion " frequency than humans,which was touched on (not in much depth) in this veterinary article on canine/feline visual perception: http://www.vin.com/VINDBPub/SearchPB/Proceedings/PR05000/PR00515.htm EG: The frequency at which a rapidly flickering light appears to be constantly illuminated (flicker fusion) provides insight into the functional characteristics of an animal's rods and cones. Flicker fusion is crudely correlated with the rapidity with which the retina can up-date an image, and generally the more rapidly a species naturally moves through its environment the higher its flicker fusion frequency. Some falcons have flicker fusion rates in excess of 100 Hz.a Because dogs can detect flicker at 70 to >80 Hz,8 a television screen which is updated 60 times/sec and appears as a fluidly moving story line to most humans may appear to rapidly flicker to a dog. Another description of how " flicker fusion " works (although the rest of this article is mostly about people driving too fast in their cars!): Thousands of people and millions of wild and domestic animals die every year in this country because motorists lack the perceptual adaptations of birds.1 Motorists cannot avoid accidents because they are incapable of reacting quickly enough when moving at high speed. Their flicker fusion frequency-the point at which an animal sees an increasingly rapid flashing light as a continuous beam-is too slow. Humans have a flicker fusion frequency of 60 Hz (60 cycles per second); in domestic pigeons, flicker fusion frequency rises to 100 Hz. Birds of prey, whose survival hinges on quickness, are thought to have an even higher flicker fusion frequency than pigeons-consider, for example, the northern goshawk, which lives in deep forests and earns its living by chasing down other birds. Without benefit of road markings, warning signs, traffic lights, and speed limits, the goshawk zooms around its wild neighborhood in relative safety. As it hotly pursues a ruffed grouse or wood duck, the goshawk may fly just above the ground at 40 miles an hour, mirroring the unpredictable twists and turns of its prey. Although the goshawk's wingspan approaches four feet, superb vision and instant reflexes help it avoid collisions with countless branches. Were a goshawk to watch a movie, its high flicker fusion frequency might cause it to see jerky rather than smooth motion, similar to what we see in very old movies, which run at a slower frame rate than modern ones.2 This visual adaptation is thought to give birds greater resolving power while moving. A goshawk flying at high speed can probably perceive an obstacle, and react to it by veering away, in a fraction of the time it would take a motorist to avoid an accident. If the goshawk were subject to the inferior perceptual abilities of humans, it would end up splattered against a tree trunk. http://pages.cthome.net/rwinkler/fff.htm But what initially got me interested in " flicker fusion " at all was a book review in the New York Times of andra Horowitz' book " Inside of A Dog " (what dogs see smell and know): http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/13/books/review/Schine-t.html?_r=1 An excerpt from the review (I haven't yet read the book): A dog's vision affects its sense of time, too. Dogs have a higher " flicker fusion " rate than we do, which is the rate at which retinal cells can process incoming light, or " the number of snapshots of the world that the eye takes in every second. " This is one of the reasons dogs respond so well to subtle human facial reactions: " They pay attention to the slivers of time between our blinks. " ) It also helps explain those *eerily accurate balletic leaps after tennis balls and Frisbees, but Horowitz lets us see the implications beyond our human-centric fascination with our pets. This is more than a game of fetch; it is a profound, existential realization: " One could say that dogs see the world faster than we do, but what they really do is see just a bit more world in every second. " That just made me wonder if my dog picks up on visual cues that I miss--or if that might be an explanation for her not liking some people.Maybe so,maybe not... I'm not a professional dog trainer--you are and you've seen much more dog behavior than I have Goodness knows what in the world my dog smells on people she has an instant aversion to! (I don't think I want to know,though) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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