Re: My mom wasn't nice either...

[Guest guest]

I LOVED this...

I have a blog and I am writing a book. The blog is public. The book, if it's

published will be under my name (I only recently decided to do it that

way)...and I have this answer for her when she confronts me...it's so simple.

" What are you concerned about mom...it's fiction. According to you, nothing

happened. "

I WANT to say that...I intend to say it if confronted. And because I have

already thought about it...I kind of hope she says something. Just so that for

ONCE in my life it's all right there.

I grew up with her and then married a man just like her...and both of them have

always told me that how I felt didn't matter, because all they were concerned

about was what they felt. The truth could be written out in my own blood all

over the walls and witnessed by the whole damned world...but the only thing that

mattered was what they felt.

> >

> > " ...But at some point you'll have to grow up and stop blaming your mom. "

(said by 55yo)

> >

> > " I " (age 41) hadn't brought up my mother to this work acquaintance (age 55)-

another person in the room (age 61) was talking about HER BPD mother and said,

when I smiled sympathetically because this has been an ongoing dialoge between

the elder one and I for 8 years (before I had a name), " Yes, Lynnette's mother

is also mentally ill. "

> >

> > I was stunned.

> >

> > I replied, " 55yo " - " There is a huge difference between being the daugher of

a mom who wasn't nice and one who is certifiably insane according to her Dr's.

I hope you never have to live the difference and make those decisions. "

> >

> > Makes me sick.

> >

> > LYnnette

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Perhaps the biggest challenge of being a KO is convincing ones own self the harm

inflicted by nada/fada was real. And all this reticince in the culture and

rejection of 'victim mentality' does not help at ALL with that. I like to

consider the harm nada did in the same category as physical injury. If someone

breaks your arm, you get it TREATED...get a cast, go to the hospital, whatever

is necessary. You wouldn't spend even a second trying to convince yourself that

the arm is not broken, or the person who did it, didn't *really* do it--you're

just too weak, you're just too sensitive, you're just a 'victim'...

The harm nada inflicts is just as real. It is a medical injury. It is our

business to avoid further injuries, and treat the ones we have. There is no

time for anyone who claims we don't have injuries. There is no time or ocassion

for any of the weird mind games. We must learn to trust the hurt we are

feeling, identify the wounds, and treat them.

Even before I knew about bpd, my own nada used to say to me, 'yes, Charlie, it's

all MY fault, isn't it', sarcastically; I think she also told me to grow up and

stop 'blaming' my poor mother for everything. This is a common theme of bpds.

They MUST deny the harm they have done.

As the NC days have gone by, I am discovering more and more of the actual harm

that nada inflicted--it is amazingly vast, in scope. And some of it is indeed

physical--I was denying that to myself. Abused children learn to convince

themselves the abuse is not happening (Judith Herman, Trauma and Recovery,

chapter on Child Abuse)--and the blame/shame game nada tries to play only serves

to reinforce that childhood tendency.

Sorry this was a bit of a disorganized ramble--I just really feel for everyone

who has heard the terrible comments described on this thread--your perceptions

are not inaccurate, your injuries are real! Oh and by the way, whoever asked

about crazy-making? Those 'stop blaming your mother' comments are it.

Best,

Charlie

> > >

> > > " ...But at some point you'll have to grow up and stop blaming your mom. "

(said by 55yo)

> > >

> > > " I " (age 41) hadn't brought up my mother to this work acquaintance (age

55)- another person in the room (age 61) was talking about HER BPD mother and

said, when I smiled sympathetically because this has been an ongoing dialoge

between the elder one and I for 8 years (before I had a name), " Yes, Lynnette's

mother is also mentally ill. "

> > >

> > > I was stunned.

> > >

> > > I replied, " 55yo " - " There is a huge difference between being the daugher

of a mom who wasn't nice and one who is certifiably insane according to her

Dr's. I hope you never have to live the difference and make those decisions. "

> > >

> > > Makes me sick.

> > >

> > > LYnnette

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

I think the term victim in and of itself can make us think of our bpd

parents and maybe that's why some people have problems with the term. My mother

was ALWAYS so victim-ish, but it was a twisted and distorted (sometimes not

even justified) form of victimization. She was always being abused or

mistreated in her eyes. Now, I feel like I have no patience for what 'victim'

means because in my head, it's whiney, waify, hermit-like, etc. It produced

a depressed, sad, childlike attitude in my mother that makes me want to

throw up my lunch. I know that's not the real definition, but its how

distorted it became in my head from having a mother who was a victim to

everyone

who crossed her path.

In a message dated 4/18/2010 11:49:12 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

ninera73@... writes:

I agree that if the intent from people making comments about victim

mentality are using it to say that our pain is not real then it is harmful and

damaging to us.

But I have to say that in *my* experience, when it has been said to me, it

hasn't been used to invalidate my experience..But I have to say that in

*my* experience, when it has been said to me, it hasn't been used to

invalidate my exBut I have to say that in *my* experience, when it has been

said to

me, it hasn't been used to invalidate my experience..<WBR>.it has actually

been used to VALIDATE it and to help me see that I can choose to live my

life differently.<WBR>..primarily, if nada is victimizing to me then the

responsibility to get out of that situation is MINE, to find the ways to NOT

allow her to behave in that way towards me. That means learning to draw

boundaries and stick to them and/or go LC or NC, whatever helps ME stop being

victimized. I

Ninera

> From: charlottehoneychurc F<_charlottehoneychurccharlotteho_

(mailto:charlottehoneychurch@...) >

> Subject: Re: " My mom wasn't nice either... "

> To: _WTOAdultChildren1@WTOAdultChilWTO_

(mailto:WTOAdultChildren1 )

> Date: Sunday, April 18, 2010, 4:35 AM

> Perhaps the biggest challenge of

> being a KO is convincing ones own self the harm inflicted by

> nada/fada was real. And all this reticince in the

> culture and rejection of 'victim mentality' does not help at

> ALL with that. I like to consider the harm nada did in

> the same category as physical injury. If someone

> breaks your arm, you get it TREATED...get a cast, go to the

> hospital, whatever is necessary. You wouldn't spend

> even a second trying to convince yourself that the arm is

> not broken, or the person who did it, didn't *really* do

> it--you're just too weak, you're just too sensitive, you're

> just a 'victim'...

>

> The harm nada inflicts is just as real. It is a

> medical injury. It is our business to avoid further

> injuries, and treat the ones we have. There is no time

> for anyone who claims we don't have injuries. There is

> no time or ocassion for any of the weird mind games.

> We must learn to trust the hurt we are feeling, identify the

> wounds, and treat them.

>

> Even before I knew about bpd, my own nada used to say to

> me, 'yes, Charlie, it's all MY fault, isn't it',

> sarcastically; I think she also told me to grow up and stop

> 'blaming' my poor mother for everything. This is a

> common theme of bpds. They MUST deny the harm they

> have done.

>

> As the NC days have gone by, I am discovering more and more

> of the actual harm that nada inflicted--it is amazingly

> vast, in scope. And some of it is indeed physical--I

> was denying that to myself. Abused children learn to

> convince themselves the abuse is not happening (Judith

> Herman, Trauma and Recovery, chapter on Child Abuse)--and

> the blame/shame game nada tries to play only serves to

> reinforce that childhood tendency.

>

> Sorry this was a bit of a disorganized ramble--I just

> really feel for everyone who has heard the terrible comments

> described on this thread--your perceptions are not

> inaccurate, your injuries are real! Oh and by the way,

> whoever asked about crazy-making? Those 'stop blaming

> your mother' comments are it.

>

> Best,

> Charlie

>

>

>

> > > >

> > > > " ...But at some point you'll have to grow up

> and stop blaming your mom. " (said by 55yo)

> > > >

> > > > " I " (age 41) hadn't brought up my mother to

> this work acquaintance (age 55)- another person in the room

> (age 61) was talking about HER BPD mother and said, when I

> smiled sympathetically because this has been an ongoing

> dialoge between the elder one and I for 8 years (before I

> had a name), " Yes, Lynnette's mother is also mentally ill. "

> > > >

> > > > I was stunned.

> > > >

> > > > I replied, " 55yo " - " There is a huge

> difference between being the daugher of a mom who wasn't

> nice and one who is certifiably insane according to her

> Dr's. I hope you never have to live the difference and

> make those decisions. "

> > > >

> > > > Makes me sick.

> > > >

> > > > LYnnette

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

>

>

>

> ------------ -------- -------- -----

>

> Problems? Ask our friendly List Manager for help at

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> SEND HER ANY POSTS THAT CONCERN YOU; DO NOT Respond ON THE

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>

> To order the KO bible " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " call

> 888-35-SHELL () for your copy. We also refer to

> “Understanding the Borderline Mother†(Lawson) and

> “Surviving the Borderline Parent,†(Roth) which you can

> find at any bookstore. Welcome to the WTO community!

>

> From Randi Kreger, Owner BPDCentral, WTO Online Community

> and author SWOE and the SWOE Workbook.

[Guest guest]

now see, I don't see that statement the same way you do. I dont take it as

they're saying dont be a whiner, they're saying make the best of your bad

situation and come through it, dont get stuck sitting there saying " oh poor

pitiful me " enjoy your life, despite what happened...

Jackie

I think there's a cultural meme going on that sounds nice on the surface but

has a dark side. It's " don't be a victim " be a " survivor " . It implies that

there are no real victims just whiners. And a LOT of people apply these

ideas very hurtfully to people who actually have been victims of very real

harm and have to deal with the reality of it.

I'm all for healing and self-empowerment but not at the expense of denying

reality. I've had quite enough of that already.

[Guest guest]

Hi,

I have seen the both sides of this word *victim*. Especially in the area I live

where there are a lot of people who do 'work on themselves'. It's one of those

fine lines, using the phrase: you are being a *victim* can be a way to minimize

a person or shame them, even though these 'groups' are not meant for shaming. I

think the process from victim to survivor is like every thing else, it takes

time, understanding, healing. When you see someone in a bad place, you have to

have the courage to sit with him where they are at. If he wants help then the

right help is needed, and it's usually compassion and caring. Not telling him

how he should feel or define himself.

That is just my reaction because of my experience with that whole thing and the

people/groups I have been involved with.

~patricia

Re: " My mom wasn't nice either... "

> To: WTOAdultChildren1

> Date: Saturday, April 17, 2010, 10:07 PM

> What amazes me is the lack of

> imagination. There are ways in which my nada could

> have been worse and I can imagine them, and I have sympathy

> for those who have experienced those ways. I don't try

> to pretend it wasn't real for them. There

> are ways in which my nada could have been healthier too that

> might have made an entirely different life for

> me.

>

> I think there's a cultural meme going on that sounds nice

> on the surface but has a dark side. It's " don't be a

> victim " be a " survivor " . It implies that there are no

> real victims just whiners. And a LOT of people apply

> these ideas very hurtfully to people who actually have been

> victims of very real harm and have to deal with the reality

> of it.

>

> I'm all for healing and self-empowerment but not at the

> expense of denying reality. I've had quite

> enough of that already.

>

>

>

>

> >

> > " ...But at some point you'll have to grow up and stop

> blaming your mom. " (said by 55yo)

> >

> > " I " (age 41) hadn't brought up my mother to this work

> acquaintance (age 55)- another person in the room (age 61)

> was talking about HER BPD mother and said, when I smiled

> sympathetically because this has been an ongoing dialoge

> between the elder one and I for 8 years (before I had a

> name), " Yes, Lynnette's mother is also mentally ill. "

> >

> > I was stunned.

> >

> > I replied, " 55yo " - " There is a huge difference

> between being the daugher of a mom who wasn't nice and one

> who is certifiably insane according to her Dr's. I

> hope you never have to live the difference and make those

> decisions. "

> >

> > Makes me sick.

> >

> > LYnnette

> >

>

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

> Problems? Ask our friendly List Manager for help at

@....

> SEND HER ANY POSTS THAT CONCERN YOU; DO NOT Respond ON THE

> GROUP.

>

> To order the KO bible " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " call

> 888-35-SHELL () for your copy. We also refer to

> “Understanding the Borderline Mother†(Lawson) and

> “Surviving the Borderline Parent,†(Roth) which you can

> find at any bookstore. Welcome to the WTO community!

>

> From Randi Kreger, Owner BPDCentral, WTO Online Community

> and author SWOE and the SWOE Workbook.

[Guest guest]

I don't think that's the idea behind being a survivor and not a

victim. I have no doubt that some people have distorted it to

mean that, but I don't think that's how it originated. The

original idea says that you shouldn't let whatever happened to

you define your whole life and destroy it. Being a survivor by

definition means that something happened for you to have

survived. It isn't a denial of having been victimized. It is a

denial that having been a victim is all that you are. It is

learning from the experience and becoming stronger. It is

getting counselling and other help if you need it so that you

can recover and move on. It is helping teach others to avoid the

same type of problem. It is fighting to change laws that allow

others to be similarly mistreated. The people who are twisting

this idea to imply that there are no real victims are further

victimizing the people who really were victims of something

worse. Pretending that the victimization never happened does not

make you a survivor. It makes you a person in denial.

Our nadas often play the Victim role. They whine, complain, hold

grudges and plot revenge, sometimes for decades, often over

small stuff that others would barely notice or would let go

after a short time. Sometimes they can't talk about much of

anything else. They see attacks and slights everywhere. That's

being a Victim. Being a Victim isn't about whether you were

really victimized. It is about your attitude towards life. It is

about letting what was done to you, or what you think was done

to you, define your life and who you are. It is about never

trying to move on and recover from what happened and never doing

anything to try to change the situation so that the same

problems don't continue to happen.

At 06:07 PM 04/17/2010 climberkayak wrote:

>What amazes me is the lack of imagination. There are ways in

>which my nada could have been worse and I can imagine them, and

>I have sympathy for those who have experienced those ways. I

>don't try to pretend it wasn't real for them. There are ways

>in which my nada could have been healthier too that might have

>made an entirely different life for me.

>

>I think there's a cultural meme going on that sounds nice on

>the surface but has a dark side. It's " don't be a victim " be a

> " survivor " . It implies that there are no real victims just

>whiners. And a LOT of people apply these ideas very hurtfully

>to people who actually have been victims of very real harm and

>have to deal with the reality of it.

>

>I'm all for healing and self-empowerment but not at the expense

>of denying reality. I've had quite enough of that already.

>

>

>

>

> >

> > " ...But at some point you'll have to grow up and stop

> blaming your mom. " (said by 55yo)

> >

> > " I " (age 41) hadn't brought up my mother to this work

> acquaintance (age 55)- another person in the room (age 61) was

> talking about HER BPD mother and said, when I smiled

> sympathetically because this has been an ongoing dialoge

> between the elder one and I for 8 years (before I had a name),

> " Yes, Lynnette's mother is also mentally ill. "

> >

> > I was stunned.

> >

> > I replied, " 55yo " - " There is a huge difference between

> being the daugher of a mom who wasn't nice and one who is

> certifiably insane according to her Dr's. I hope you never

> have to live the difference and make those decisions. "

> >

> > Makes me sick.

> >

> > LYnnette

> >

>

>

>

>

>------------------------------------

>

>Problems? Ask our friendly List Manager for help at

>@.... SEND HER ANY POSTS THAT CONCERN YOU; DO

>NOT Respond ON THE GROUP.

>

>To order the KO bible " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " call

>888-35-SHELL () for your copy. We also refer to

> " Understanding the Borderline Mother " (Lawson) and " Surviving

>the Borderline Parent, " (Roth) which you can find at any

>bookstore. Welcome to the WTO community!

>

> From Randi Kreger, Owner BPDCentral, WTO Online Community and

> author SWOE and the SWOE Workbook.

[Guest guest]

I agree that if the intent from people making comments about victim mentality

are using it to say that our pain is not real then it is harmful and damaging to

us.

But I have to say that in *my* experience, when it has been said to me, it

hasn't been used to invalidate my experience...it has actually been used to

VALIDATE it and to help me see that I can choose to live my life

differently...primarily, if nada is victimizing to me then the responsibility to

get out of that situation is MINE, to find the ways to NOT allow her to behave

in that way towards me. That means learning to draw boundaries and stick to

them and/or go LC or NC, whatever helps ME stop being victimized. It doesn't

mean that what she does is not victimizing, or that what she did was not abusive

or victimizing, it means that I...as an adult now...have the choice to submit

myself to what I KNOW will be victimizing or to take care of myself.

Ninera

>

> Subject: Re: " My mom wasn't nice either... "

> To: WTOAdultChildren1

> Date: Sunday, April 18, 2010, 4:35 AM

> Perhaps the biggest challenge of

> being a KO is convincing ones own self the harm inflicted by

> nada/fada was real.  And all this reticince in the

> culture and rejection of 'victim mentality' does not help at

> ALL with that.  I like to consider the harm nada did in

> the same category as physical injury.  If someone

> breaks your arm, you get it TREATED...get a cast, go to the

> hospital, whatever is necessary.  You wouldn't spend

> even a second trying to convince yourself that the arm is

> not broken, or the person who did it, didn't *really* do

> it--you're just too weak, you're just too sensitive, you're

> just a 'victim'...

>

> The harm nada inflicts is just as real.  It is a

> medical injury.  It is our business to avoid further

> injuries, and treat the ones we have.  There is no time

> for anyone who claims we don't have injuries.  There is

> no time or ocassion for any of the weird mind games. 

> We must learn to trust the hurt we are feeling, identify the

> wounds, and treat them.   

>

> Even before I knew about bpd, my own nada used to say to

> me, 'yes, Charlie, it's all MY fault, isn't it',

> sarcastically; I think she also told me to grow up and stop

> 'blaming' my poor mother for everything.  This is a

> common theme of bpds.  They MUST deny the harm they

> have done. 

>

> As the NC days have gone by, I am discovering more and more

> of the actual harm that nada inflicted--it is amazingly

> vast, in scope.  And some of it is indeed physical--I

> was denying that to myself.  Abused children learn to

> convince themselves the abuse is not happening (Judith

> Herman, Trauma and Recovery, chapter on Child Abuse)--and

> the blame/shame game nada tries to play only serves to

> reinforce that childhood tendency. 

>

> Sorry this was a bit of a disorganized ramble--I just

> really feel for everyone who has heard the terrible comments

> described on this thread--your perceptions are not

> inaccurate, your injuries are real!  Oh and by the way,

> whoever asked about crazy-making?  Those 'stop blaming

> your mother' comments are it.

>

> Best,

> Charlie     

>

>

>

> > > >

> > > > " ...But at some point you'll have to grow up

> and stop blaming your mom. " (said by 55yo)

> > > >

> > > > " I " (age 41) hadn't brought up my mother to

> this work acquaintance (age 55)- another person in the room

> (age 61) was talking about HER BPD mother and said, when I

> smiled sympathetically because this has been an ongoing

> dialoge between the elder one and I for 8 years (before I

> had a name), " Yes, Lynnette's mother is also mentally ill. "

> > > >

> > > > I was stunned.

> > > >

> > > > I replied, " 55yo " - " There is a huge

> difference between being the daugher of a mom who wasn't

> nice and one who is certifiably insane according to her

> Dr's.  I hope you never have to live the difference and

> make those decisions. "

> > > >

> > > > Makes me sick.

> > > >

> > > > LYnnette

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

> Problems? Ask our friendly List Manager for help at @....

> SEND HER ANY POSTS THAT CONCERN YOU; DO NOT Respond ON THE

> GROUP.

>

> To order the KO bible " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " call

> 888-35-SHELL () for your copy. We also refer to

> “Understanding the Borderline Mother†(Lawson) and

> “Surviving the Borderline Parent,†(Roth) which you can

> find at any bookstore. Welcome to the WTO community!

>

> From Randi Kreger, Owner BPDCentral, WTO Online Community

> and author SWOE and the SWOE Workbook.

[Guest guest]

Ninera, what you describe sounds like a very positive use of the survivor/victim

way of thinking. What's got my goat is when people use it as a way to

invalidate others or to cast them as weak if they truly are too injured to

recover without significant help. Some seem to use it as a way to just tell

others to shut up and get over it. It's good to hear in your story that it

isn't always like that. I am sorry that happened to you and glad you found a

way to reclaim your power.

> > >

> > > " ...But at some point you'll have to grow up and stop

> > blaming your mom. " (said by 55yo)

> > >

> > > " I " (age 41) hadn't brought up my mother to this work

> > acquaintance (age 55)- another person in the room (age 61)

> > was talking about HER BPD mother and said, when I smiled

> > sympathetically because this has been an ongoing dialoge

> > between the elder one and I for 8 years (before I had a

> > name), " Yes, Lynnette's mother is also mentally ill. "

> > >

> > > I was stunned.

> > >

> > > I replied, " 55yo " - " There is a huge difference

> > between being the daugher of a mom who wasn't nice and one

> > who is certifiably insane according to her Dr's.  I

> > hope you never have to live the difference and make those

> > decisions. "

> > >

> > > Makes me sick.

> > >

> > > LYnnette

> > >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > ------------------------------------

> >

> > Problems? Ask our friendly List Manager for help at @...

> > SEND HER ANY POSTS THAT CONCERN YOU; DO NOT Respond ON THE

> > GROUP.

> >

> > To order the KO bible " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " call

> > 888-35-SHELL () for your copy. We also refer to

> > “Understanding the Borderline Mother†(Lawson) and

> > “Surviving the Borderline Parent,†(Roth) which you can

> > find at any bookstore. Welcome to the WTO community!

> >

> > From Randi Kreger, Owner BPDCentral, WTO Online Community

> > and author SWOE and the SWOE Workbook.

[Guest guest]

I have seen it used in certain *communities* that work on self empowerment as a

way to tell a person she/he is being a *victim* not empowered. But to me that

is like going from a to z without all the inbetween stuff. People come from

such varied backgrounds that it is not good to apply an *idea* to them in order

to be part of a group. Maybe the thing to do would be explore the feeling with

the person rather than the shame stuff inadvertently happening (because I know

that is not the intent)

~patricia

Re: " My mom wasn't nice either... "

Ninera, what you describe sounds like a very positive use of the

survivor/victim way of thinking. What's got my goat is when people use it as a

way to invalidate others or to cast them as weak if they truly are too injured

to recover without significant help. Some seem to use it as a way to just tell

others to shut up and get over it. It's good to hear in your story that it

isn't always like that. I am sorry that happened to you and glad you found a

way to reclaim your power.

> > >

> > > " ...But at some point you'll have to grow up and stop

> > blaming your mom. " (said by 55yo)

> > >

> > > " I " (age 41) hadn't brought up my mother to this work

> > acquaintance (age 55)- another person in the room (age 61)

> > was talking about HER BPD mother and said, when I smiled

> > sympathetically because this has been an ongoing dialoge

> > between the elder one and I for 8 years (before I had a

> > name), " Yes, Lynnette's mother is also mentally ill. "

> > >

> > > I was stunned.

> > >

> > > I replied, " 55yo " - " There is a huge difference

> > between being the daugher of a mom who wasn't nice and one

> > who is certifiably insane according to her Dr's. I

> > hope you never have to live the difference and make those

> > decisions. "

> > >

> > > Makes me sick.

> > >

> > > LYnnette

> > >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > ------------------------------------

> >

> > Problems? Ask our friendly List Manager for help at @...

> > SEND HER ANY POSTS THAT CONCERN YOU; DO NOT Respond ON THE

> > GROUP.

> >

> > To order the KO bible " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " call

> > 888-35-SHELL () for your copy. We also refer to

> > â?oUnderstanding the Borderline Motherâ? (Lawson) and

> > â?oSurviving the Borderline Parent,â? (Roth) which you can

> > find at any bookstore. Welcome to the WTO community!

> >

> > From Randi Kreger, Owner BPDCentral, WTO Online Community

> > and author SWOE and the SWOE Workbook.

[Guest guest]

Charlie,your post was far from being a " disorganized ramble " --I think it's

brilliant and *so* on point.

I have thought the same exact thing about the harm being a phyiscal

injury.Because it *is*.I had fractured and broken bones as a child and I have to

say that my reactions to recalling the other abuse still *feels* the way my mind

felt dealing with a physical injury--like my brain interprets profound emotional

damage the same way it would a broken bone as an INJURY.I have the same need to

want to rest and nurse the injury.The same horror at feeling incapacitated.

I've also had the thought about the abuse not being acknowledged for what

it is as being like having a broken leg.By turns,I am told something like: So

what if your leg is broken,walk.

Like I'm expected to not only walk on an unhealed broken leg sometimes but

to also skip along on it and even do a jig.And if I can't,that is my shame,not

the simple fact of the broken leg.

Or I feel like I have been abandoned because of the broken leg--like the

brokenness itself is just cause to leave me laying in the dust.Like nobody knows

how to set that broken bone and if I can't function with it,that's just tough.

It is very true,like you said,that BPDs (and Cluster Bs) must DENY the

harm they have done.My nada has also said sarcatically to me things

like, " Yeah,yeah,it's all my fault " (snort) or " Well I guess I just ruined your

life since I'm such an awful person " as if this is only some kind of joke.

The scope of all of it really is amazingly vast.

>

> Perhaps the biggest challenge of being a KO is convincing ones own self the

harm inflicted by nada/fada was real. And all this reticince in the culture and

rejection of 'victim mentality' does not help at ALL with that. I like to

consider the harm nada did in the same category as physical injury. If someone

breaks your arm, you get it TREATED...get a cast, go to the hospital, whatever

is necessary. You wouldn't spend even a second trying to convince yourself that

the arm is not broken, or the person who did it, didn't *really* do it--you're

just too weak, you're just too sensitive, you're just a 'victim'...

>

> The harm nada inflicts is just as real. It is a medical injury. It is our

business to avoid further injuries, and treat the ones we have. There is no

time for anyone who claims we don't have injuries. There is no time or ocassion

for any of the weird mind games. We must learn to trust the hurt we are

feeling, identify the wounds, and treat them.

>

> Even before I knew about bpd, my own nada used to say to me, 'yes, Charlie,

it's all MY fault, isn't it', sarcastically; I think she also told me to grow up

and stop 'blaming' my poor mother for everything. This is a common theme of

bpds. They MUST deny the harm they have done.

>

> As the NC days have gone by, I am discovering more and more of the actual harm

that nada inflicted--it is amazingly vast, in scope. And some of it is indeed

physical--I was denying that to myself. Abused children learn to convince

themselves the abuse is not happening (Judith Herman, Trauma and Recovery,

chapter on Child Abuse)--and the blame/shame game nada tries to play only serves

to reinforce that childhood tendency.

>

> Sorry this was a bit of a disorganized ramble--I just really feel for everyone

who has heard the terrible comments described on this thread--your perceptions

are not inaccurate, your injuries are real! Oh and by the way, whoever asked

about crazy-making? Those 'stop blaming your mother' comments are it.

>

> Best,

> Charlie

>

>

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Yikes,Lynnette,you got hit with that coworker's psychic debris!!

NOT GOOD when that happens.

There you were having had validation of the insanity for what it is from your

61 yr old coworker and you smiled sympathetically at her and again she validated

REALITY,nicely giving validation for validation--

--and---

Ms 55 yr old lobs her nasty missile at you right at the moment when

you're looking the other way.Yuck.

GOOD for you for saying what you did--she needed and *deserved* that.

That was all about her.She's got some issues,Lynnette.You're clear on

it,yourself.So is the 61 yr old.You two have it down for real.

And oh,I couldn't help but wonder as I read this: does your 55 yr old

coworker by any chance know about any of your fabulous news,like hooking up with

your high school sweetheart and getting engaged to him or the professional

support for your cool gig in China?

I think there was alot going on beneath the surface in that one missile

lob and none of it has anything much to do with you,just with her.You're

alright,you're getting it all sussed.She's way behind you and frankly full of

shit.

I know people and comments like this are infuriating,though.Or whatever

low blow word you want to attach to it.It's still the other person's psychic

debris.*Their* problem,their issue.Often a petty power play using a sub-par

weapon because they have nothing better and no real ground to stand on and

whether they know that or not is not a KO's concern,really.You've got too much

more going for you than her pathetic little lob.

You told her off right

>

> " ...But at some point you'll have to grow up and stop blaming your mom. " (said

by 55yo)

>

> " I " (age 41) hadn't brought up my mother to this work acquaintance (age 55)-

another person in the room (age 61) was talking about HER BPD mother and said,

when I smiled sympathetically because this has been an ongoing dialoge between

the elder one and I for 8 years (before I had a name), " Yes, Lynnette's mother

is also mentally ill. "

>

> I was stunned.

>

> I replied, " 55yo " - " There is a huge difference between being the daugher of a

mom who wasn't nice and one who is certifiably insane according to her Dr's. I

hope you never have to live the difference and make those decisions. "

>

> Makes me sick.

>

> LYnnette

>

[Guest guest]

I knew the second she uttered those words they were another reflection of her

insecurity in my presence. This isn't the first time my comparative youth,

success and professional kudo's have made this woman attack.... but in the past

I've just put up with it. Not this time.

Really, after a few days time, all I can say is - WOW... she really IS a

B$#%@#h.

Lynnette

> >

> > " ...But at some point you'll have to grow up and stop blaming your mom. "

(said by 55yo)

> >

> > " I " (age 41) hadn't brought up my mother to this work acquaintance (age 55)-

another person in the room (age 61) was talking about HER BPD mother and said,

when I smiled sympathetically because this has been an ongoing dialoge between

the elder one and I for 8 years (before I had a name), " Yes, Lynnette's mother

is also mentally ill. "

> >

> > I was stunned.

> >

> > I replied, " 55yo " - " There is a huge difference between being the daugher of

a mom who wasn't nice and one who is certifiably insane according to her Dr's.

I hope you never have to live the difference and make those decisions. "

> >

> > Makes me sick.

> >

> > LYnnette

> >

>

[Guest guest]

There,Lynnette,you were right again It was an attack and no doubt for the

reasons you mention--and probably for other junky crap she's got swilling in her

head.

I don't know about you,but I will let other peoples' psychic debris land

at my feet and just step the hell over it and keep going because I have stuff

going on that is much more important (and often more fulfilling) to me than

bothering with their pettiness.Also not even feeling like bothering with taking

in how much the person is a bitch or a bastard.They're kind of like gnats,on

that level of yicky little pest.

But sometimes they do manage to spit some debris at me at just the

moment when I do finally lose my Zen and then I will shoot something back.I

think what you said to her was perfect: to the point,expressing concisely your

point of view,classy because you even threw some compassion in for her by not

wishing the same on her--plus you get extra bonus points for even making it

educational.

She's still a bitch--but *you're* not.I'd imagine that's why you're on

your way up and up while the best she can do is spew junk at you...

> > >

> > > " ...But at some point you'll have to grow up and stop blaming your mom. "

(said by 55yo)

> > >

> > > " I " (age 41) hadn't brought up my mother to this work acquaintance (age

55)- another person in the room (age 61) was talking about HER BPD mother and

said, when I smiled sympathetically because this has been an ongoing dialoge

between the elder one and I for 8 years (before I had a name), " Yes, Lynnette's

mother is also mentally ill. "

> > >

> > > I was stunned.

> > >

> > > I replied, " 55yo " - " There is a huge difference between being the daugher

of a mom who wasn't nice and one who is certifiably insane according to her

Dr's. I hope you never have to live the difference and make those decisions. "

> > >

> > > Makes me sick.

> > >

> > > LYnnette

> > >

> >

>