Re: If everything means nothing then nothing means anything

April 12, 2010

Yea, guys,

Nada was very inconsistant about her sense of sexual mores and

standards. She loved to tell the story about how she was carrying me

when she walked across the stage to graduate.

Yet she also condemned her sister all her life for " not keeping her

skirts clean " . I dont think either of them messed around more than

the other, just the sister had one child on her own.

And she loved to tell me that quote women had needs too, end quote. And

I would tell her, I have a need to. I need to never hear you say that

again! lol.

Part of their splitting is at work here it seems. She can never be

wrong, so sis can never be right. People they judge for doing the same

thing they do are wrong, but they can always justify their own

behaviors.

Doug

>

> You make some very valid points in this post. I can so much of what

you've

> said in my own mother.

>

> The sexual issues. My mother never discussed sex with me in a way that

a

> mother should discuss it with her daughter. It was awkward, weird, and

was

> usually under the context of, " you better never have sex until you're

married

> or I'll kill you! " Thing was, my mother never held herself to those

> standards. She was pregnant twice without being married. And looking

back, she

> held me to really impossible standards.

>

> She was also very against gays, people who had abortions, people of

other

> races and religions, people who drank alcohol (no matter how little)

and

> made no bones about downing these people, calling them trashbags,

maggots, and

> various other names she came up with. However, confronted with someone

who

> had an abortion or was gay or another race --- she was as nice as

could

> be. You could melt butter on her she was so nice.

> But she raised me to be prejudiced and when I didn't adhere to her

views

> when I grew up, I was " wrong " and " stupid. "

>

> In a message dated 4/12/2010 2:48:59 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

> doug883@... writes:

>

> Confused yet? Pondering the nadaness of nada. In this respect.

>

> Things were never what they seemed, or ought to be. For example, nada

> would praise me effusively for little nothings. Accomplishments that

> were meaningless would cause her to gush on and on. I think it was a

> way of living her own life and lack of self esteem through me. But

look

> what that did.

>

> If she was overflowing in praise for what I knew to be a nothing

thing,

> then any praise for a real accomplishment became meaningless. It took

> away from the satisfaction when I found things at which I could excel.

>

> Her criticisms were equally meaningless, for similar reasons. She

would

> not criticize directly as in pick up your socks, but complain about

her

> lack of cleanliness to another, and manage to shift the blame for the

> house not being clean to me. I would then catch the criticism that I

> need to help me mother more! So, the real criticism which would be

> effective and true, you need to pick up your clothes and put them in

the

> laundry, was meaningless in view of you need to be the one responsible

> for the house being cleaned.

>

> Another case in point, which combines nada s lack of bounderies and

> sexual inappropriateness. She gets an anonymous phone call which

> accuses me of having sex with a girl I knew. Nada s responce? She

blows

> up, accuses me of doing it, then wants a 14 year old boy to swear to

her

> that I would never consider having sex with some little hussy! Now the

> girl in question, was hot, and I had it bad for her, but never had a

> chance. At that time, I had never had sex at all. But to swear I would

> nt do so? When, lets face it, a 14 year old boy, I thought about it

all

> the time and really wanted to give it a try. So this criticism was

> useless, and emasculating.

>

> So her praises were meaningless, as were her criticisms, because none

> were grounded in truth.

>

> Then there were relationships. I never understood this. She would "

> adopt " kids, make them as special as I should have been, gush about

> them, in front of me, and to me, as if I should think that was a

> wonderful thing. This behavior continued on through her life till she

> was doing it about grandkids as well. She never even met some of her

> great grandkids, my grandkids. What an utter slap that was. I always

> felt like, what am I , chopped liver?

>

> She wanted me to hate my dad, who she divorced, but then be as bubbly

> and in love with her boy friends, many of whom were incarcerated

> prisoners she met by writing letters, as she was.

>

> Nothing had a true meaning with nada. What did it mean for her to say

I

> love you, if she would say it, and make it clear it was equal, to the

> kid of a casual friend? If I was chastised for that girl with the big,

> well that doesnt matter, that I never did get even a kiss from, what

> difference did it make for her to talk about my drinking? She never

got

> it right, so why, and how, would I start to heed her?

>

> By the way, her criticism of my drinking, which started at the age of

> 12, was not about you re too young, you may be on the road to being an

> alcoholic, it will ruin your health. No, no. It was , you just hurt

your

> mother so badly by doing that.

>

> You see what I mean? Nothing had a real meaning with nada. So nothing

> nada said was ever taken seriously.

>

> Any of you guys have similar stories? Praise that becomes meaningless,

> criticism that becomes useless, being devalued as the person and child

> that you were?

>

> I m feeling a little sorry for myself tonite, guys. Sorry if that

comes

> thru in this post.

>

> Doug

>

April 12, 2010

Jackie - LOL - An auto parts store! The very idea. The town must be FULL of

mechanics.... My mom told me (when I was 14 or 15) that she'd give me the

details about sex the night before my wedding. Apparently she didn't realize

that I was able to read and owned a library card. Probably a good thing in

retrospect, since I was able to get real information instead of depending on her

whacked-out version of the birds and bees.

>

> >My mother never discussed sex with me in a way that a

> >mother should discuss it with her daughter. It was awkward, weird, and was

> >usually under the context of, " you better never have sex until you're

> >married

> >or I'll kill you! "

>

> this was my sex talk with my nada too...she never told me about the monthly

> curse...neither did either of my 2 older sisters...so you can imagine my

> horror after being bucked off a horse ( I wasnt injured) when I was 13 at

> my aunts farm, and that night started my first monthly curse...my aunt was

> so sweet ( no relation to nada) and explained that this happens to young

> girls at this age...

>

> >She was also very against gays, people who had abortions, people of other

> >races and religions, people who drank alcohol (no matter how little) and

> >made no bones about downing these people, calling them trashbags, maggots,

> >and

> > various other names she came up with. However, confronted with someone who

> >had an abortion or was gay or another race --- she was as nice as could

> >be. You could melt butter on her she was so nice.

>

> this too is exactly how my nada is....she will bad mouth anyone behind

> their backs, but be so sweet to their faces...they were visiting here, and

> we went into town to the grocery store...we passed this building, and nada

> said how terrible it was for a bar to be open so early and what was wrong

> with this town, it must be filled with drunks, and on and on about how evil

> this place was....my husband turned to look at her and said " it's an auto

> supply store " which it was LOL she didnt even bother to take the time to

> see what it really was before she had to condem them...and sex, she was SO

> against sex, and made it clear that if any of us 3 girls got pregnant before

> we were married, she would disown us, throw us into the streets, etc...come

> to find out, HER mother was pergnant before she was married !! My nada is a

> very opinionated person...and it's usually very negative..

>

> Jackie

>

April 12, 2010

My mom gave me a book. A cartoon figured book. Here, read this. If you have

questions, ask. I was 13.

Of course I had already been the victim of abuse for some years so the mechanics

were pretty much 'done.' " Of my own choice " - I was almost 20...

Eeesh... how I didn't turn into a colossal tramp is beyond me (or my therapist.)

Just ONE post I'd like to NOT identify with...

Lynnette

> >

> > >My mother never discussed sex with me in a way that a

> > >mother should discuss it with her daughter. It was awkward, weird, and was

> > >usually under the context of, " you better never have sex until you're

> > >married

> > >or I'll kill you! "

> >

> > this was my sex talk with my nada too...she never told me about the monthly

> > curse...neither did either of my 2 older sisters...so you can imagine my

> > horror after being bucked off a horse ( I wasnt injured) when I was 13 at

> > my aunts farm, and that night started my first monthly curse...my aunt was

> > so sweet ( no relation to nada) and explained that this happens to young

> > girls at this age...

> >

> > >She was also very against gays, people who had abortions, people of other

> > >races and religions, people who drank alcohol (no matter how little) and

> > >made no bones about downing these people, calling them trashbags, maggots,

> > >and

> > > various other names she came up with. However, confronted with someone who

> > >had an abortion or was gay or another race --- she was as nice as could

> > >be. You could melt butter on her she was so nice.

> >

> > this too is exactly how my nada is....she will bad mouth anyone behind

> > their backs, but be so sweet to their faces...they were visiting here, and

> > we went into town to the grocery store...we passed this building, and nada

> > said how terrible it was for a bar to be open so early and what was wrong

> > with this town, it must be filled with drunks, and on and on about how evil

> > this place was....my husband turned to look at her and said " it's an auto

> > supply store " which it was LOL she didnt even bother to take the time to

> > see what it really was before she had to condem them...and sex, she was SO

> > against sex, and made it clear that if any of us 3 girls got pregnant before

> > we were married, she would disown us, throw us into the streets, etc...come

> > to find out, HER mother was pergnant before she was married !! My nada is a

> > very opinionated person...and it's usually very negative..

> >

> > Jackie

> >

>

April 12, 2010

Here is what is normal: When we are infants and children, we look to the

reactions and responses of the adults around us to teach us what is " good " and

" bad. " Hit your brother on the head? The shocked/worried reactions of the

adults should tell you: " bad " behavior. Kiss your little sister sweetly? The

coos and smiles of the adults should tell you: " good " behavior. That should

continue to translate, as we learn acceptable behavior, into " I'm a good person

with value. "

This continues on into adulthood, I believe. We may reject it as teenagers, but

we still look to our parents and those around us to tell us what is " good " and

" bad " about us and our behavior.

Here is what we got: A cluster of mixed up reactions that were neither sane

nor, for that matter, even consistent. Hit your brother on the head? Get hit

one day and get an ice cream cone the next. Kiss your little sister sweetly?

Get backhanded one day for hurting the baby (i.e. kicking up nada's jealousy)

and get your picture taken the next, so she can brag about what a good mom she

is.

So . . .I think it is normal to go through short periods of feeling like we are

floating in meaningless definitions. Our foundation was, in turn, cemented with

lies and jackhammered when truth floated in. We simply weren't given solid

responses with which to help define ourselves.

No matter how strong I get, I still have times where I feel like everything and

nothing is good about me all at the same time. And it can be difficult in my

more lonely and weak times to get my hands around any objectivity when it comes

to my value and why.

For what it is worth, I will add what is " good " about you. You are an excellent

writer. You are articulate. You are keenly perceptive. You speak truth with

boldness, and I've seen your ability to kindly speak truth serve many a

floundering KO. You are funny as h***. Feel free to add to the list--this is

just a starting point.

Blessings,

Karla

>

> Confused yet? Pondering the nadaness of nada. In this respect.

>

> Things were never what they seemed, or ought to be. For example, nada

> would praise me effusively for little nothings. Accomplishments that

> were meaningless would cause her to gush on and on. I think it was a

> way of living her own life and lack of self esteem through me. But look

> what that did.

>

> If she was overflowing in praise for what I knew to be a nothing thing,

> then any praise for a real accomplishment became meaningless. It took

> away from the satisfaction when I found things at which I could excel.

>

> Her criticisms were equally meaningless, for similar reasons. She would

> not criticize directly as in pick up your socks, but complain about her

> lack of cleanliness to another, and manage to shift the blame for the

> house not being clean to me. I would then catch the criticism that I

> need to help me mother more! So, the real criticism which would be

> effective and true, you need to pick up your clothes and put them in the

> laundry, was meaningless in view of you need to be the one responsible

> for the house being cleaned.

>

> Another case in point, which combines nada s lack of bounderies and

> sexual inappropriateness. She gets an anonymous phone call which

> accuses me of having sex with a girl I knew. Nada s responce? She blows

> up, accuses me of doing it, then wants a 14 year old boy to swear to her

> that I would never consider having sex with some little hussy! Now the

> girl in question, was hot, and I had it bad for her, but never had a

> chance. At that time, I had never had sex at all. But to swear I would

> nt do so? When, lets face it, a 14 year old boy, I thought about it all

> the time and really wanted to give it a try. So this criticism was

> useless, and emasculating.

>

> So her praises were meaningless, as were her criticisms, because none

> were grounded in truth.

>

> Then there were relationships. I never understood this. She would "

> adopt " kids, make them as special as I should have been, gush about

> them, in front of me, and to me, as if I should think that was a

> wonderful thing. This behavior continued on through her life till she

> was doing it about grandkids as well. She never even met some of her

> great grandkids, my grandkids. What an utter slap that was. I always

> felt like, what am I , chopped liver?

>

> She wanted me to hate my dad, who she divorced, but then be as bubbly

> and in love with her boy friends, many of whom were incarcerated

> prisoners she met by writing letters, as she was.

>

> Nothing had a true meaning with nada. What did it mean for her to say I

> love you, if she would say it, and make it clear it was equal, to the

> kid of a casual friend? If I was chastised for that girl with the big,

> well that doesnt matter, that I never did get even a kiss from, what

> difference did it make for her to talk about my drinking? She never got

> it right, so why, and how, would I start to heed her?

>

> By the way, her criticism of my drinking, which started at the age of

> 12, was not about you re too young, you may be on the road to being an

> alcoholic, it will ruin your health. No, no. It was , you just hurt your

> mother so badly by doing that.

>

> You see what I mean? Nothing had a real meaning with nada. So nothing

> nada said was ever taken seriously.

>

> Any of you guys have similar stories? Praise that becomes meaningless,

> criticism that becomes useless, being devalued as the person and child

> that you were?

>

> I m feeling a little sorry for myself tonite, guys. Sorry if that comes

> thru in this post.

>

> Doug

>

April 12, 2010

I learned about the birds and the bees from the farm animals on my aunts

farm...they bred morgan horses and GSD...

Jackie

Jackie - LOL - An auto parts store! The very idea. The town must be FULL

of mechanics.... My mom told me (when I was 14 or 15) that she'd give me

the details about sex the night before my wedding. Apparently she didn't

realize that I was able to read and owned a library card. Probably a good

thing in retrospect, since I was able to get real information instead of

depending on her whacked-out version of the birds and bees.

April 12, 2010

Hi Doug,

Two parts of your post I directly related to:

Where you said your mother deflected blame to you for the state of the house:

My mother was an utter slob; she had screaming rages at my siblings and I from

the time we were very little about how we wouldn't help her keep the house tidy.

Instead of seeing this as abusive, relatives and friends tut-tutted about how we

owed it to her to help her more. Which was bizarre because if anything got done

it usually had to be done by us anyway. By the time I was 10, I had terrible

nerves about everything not being just so.

" Adopting " other kids: Our house was always full of strays that my mother took

in, because she wanted the world to know how " kind " she was. She'd encourage

them to call her " mum " - we were definitely chopped liver. It got more

pernicious as I got older; even in my adulthood she'd rave about how some

stranger called her " mum " and was like a " real " daughter to her. The trouble is,

she'd eventually turn on them too; a lot of feelings were hurt. Your post is the

first thing I've read that put such perfectly exact words to this phenomenon.

I'm so sorry you endured this, Doug.

Take care,

'

Louise

April 12, 2010

My nada was so nasty about sex. When my brother got caught making out with a

girl she confronted him in one of her 3 hour counseling sessions and declared in

front of me and my dad, " my son is corrupt and defiled. " I never kissed a guy

until 20. She called me a whore for doing it. (I married him--happy marriage

BTW, nada hates him...). When I was sexually assualted by a predator I thought

was a friend, I was so scared of telling her I didn't go home from college for 5

days. Then I had three of my friends drive me (all guys) and one (the famous

future husband) sit with me in the backyard to tell her. He told her I'd been

raped, and she looked relieved. She relaxed visibly. She had thought we were

there to tell her I was pregnant or something. She then over time made it clear

it was my fault I was raped, and convinced me for 3 years my father was ashamed

of me for it. (he was shocked when he found that one out). Later I recognized

that while it

wasn't nada's fault, she did set me up to be unable to protect myself from a

predator. My nada has a very strong witch and I learned to associate

annihilating insults with love and distrust kind people (they couldn't love me

if they didn't know the real evil inside me). This guy was saying terrible

things to me and I didn't even register them. Any healthy person would have

seen him coming 10 miles away.

Oh, Nada.... Why do I struggle with LC? What exactly am I afraid to give up

about this relationship with nada?

________________________________

To: WTOAdultChildren1

Sent: Mon, April 12, 2010 7:41:21 AM

Subject: Re: If everything means nothing then nothing means

anything

>My mother never discussed sex with me in a way that a

>mother should discuss it with her daughter. It was awkward, weird, and was

>usually under the context of, " you better never have sex until you're

>married

>or I'll kill you! "

this was my sex talk with my nada too...she never told me about the monthly

curse...neither did either of my 2 older sisters...so you can imagine my

horror after being bucked off a horse ( I wasnt injured) when I was 13 at

my aunts farm, and that night started my first monthly curse...my aunt was

so sweet ( no relation to nada) and explained that this happens to young

girls at this age...

>She was also very against gays, people who had abortions, people of other

>races and religions, people who drank alcohol (no matter how little) and

>made no bones about downing these people, calling them trashbags, maggots,

>and

> various other names she came up with. However, confronted with someone who

>had an abortion or was gay or another race --- she was as nice as could

>be. You could melt butter on her she was so nice.

this too is exactly how my nada is....she will bad mouth anyone behind

their backs, but be so sweet to their faces...they were visiting here, and

we went into town to the grocery store...we passed this building, and nada

said how terrible it was for a bar to be open so early and what was wrong

with this town, it must be filled with drunks, and on and on about how evil

this place was....my husband turned to look at her and said " it's an auto

supply store " which it was LOL she didnt even bother to take the time to

see what it really was before she had to condem them...and sex, she was SO

against sex, and made it clear that if any of us 3 girls got pregnant before

we were married, she would disown us, throw us into the streets, etc...come

to find out, HER mother was pergnant before she was married !! My nada is a

very opinionated person...and it's usually very negative..

Jackie

April 12, 2010

Hi Doug,

I am continuously impressed with the way you and everyone else can articulate

the experience of growing up within the BPD FOG. What you are saying here is

simple yet very profound; that we grow up very confused when we are not praised

for our own selves, to give ourselves and identity but to enhance the identity

of the BPD parent. Then there is this strange feeling, at least for me, all my

life, of: who am I? Why do I never feel good enough? Why does therapy not even

help with this?

Why can't I get away from the influence of my BPD parent?

Also, the idea of saying: okay these are your responsibilities~ clean up after

yourself, do the dishes (whatever), rather than a sick, crying, messed up momma

who is blaming *you* for her problems because you didn't do those things.

This made me defensive and resentful and I guess passive aggressive. And very

passive. Hiding. And feeling guilty as hell.

I remember when I was very very young, my mother went into the mental hospital.

I don't remember why, or for how long or what precipitated it. I remember

visiting her in a darkened room. I remember the nurses saying we were so cute

(us kids) and I remember feeling ugly as can be when she said that. I remember

my grandmother saying that maybe if we helped out more around the house....mom

would be okay. (I mean really? Our house was totally clean and organized; my

mom even had a cleaning lady).

When we were teens and young adults and my parents would go away, I remember

this crazed thing before they came back thinking we had to perfectly clean the

house for her when they arrived. And one day I realized: it wasn't clean like

this before she left!

I also experienced the inappropriate sexual invasiveness from my mother. Some

things she said and did. And her not understanding how bad I felt when I got my

period at the age of 11 (it was horrible).

It's weird,I felt that I had left a lot of this behind but when I read this

stuff from everyone and I see how isolated I have become in my sorrow, and

grief, and the passive anger I have, I can see the strength of it all; how it

affected me so deeply that who knows if I will move beyond it.

And Doug, sorry for your low mood; I am feeling sorry for myself too.

~patricia

If everything means nothing then nothing means

anything

Confused yet? Pondering the nadaness of nada. In this respect.

Things were never what they seemed, or ought to be. For example, nada

would praise me effusively for little nothings. Accomplishments that

were meaningless would cause her to gush on and on. I think it was a

way of living her own life and lack of self esteem through me. But look

what that did.

If she was overflowing in praise for what I knew to be a nothing thing,

then any praise for a real accomplishment became meaningless. It took

away from the satisfaction when I found things at which I could excel.

Her criticisms were equally meaningless, for similar reasons. She would

not criticize directly as in pick up your socks, but complain about her

lack of cleanliness to another, and manage to shift the blame for the

house not being clean to me. I would then catch the criticism that I

need to help me mother more! So, the real criticism which would be

effective and true, you need to pick up your clothes and put them in the

laundry, was meaningless in view of you need to be the one responsible

for the house being cleaned.

Another case in point, which combines nada s lack of bounderies and

sexual inappropriateness. She gets an anonymous phone call which

accuses me of having sex with a girl I knew. Nada s responce? She blows

up, accuses me of doing it, then wants a 14 year old boy to swear to her

that I would never consider having sex with some little hussy! Now the

girl in question, was hot, and I had it bad for her, but never had a

chance. At that time, I had never had sex at all. But to swear I would

nt do so? When, lets face it, a 14 year old boy, I thought about it all

the time and really wanted to give it a try. So this criticism was

useless, and emasculating.

So her praises were meaningless, as were her criticisms, because none

were grounded in truth.

Then there were relationships. I never understood this. She would "

adopt " kids, make them as special as I should have been, gush about

them, in front of me, and to me, as if I should think that was a

wonderful thing. This behavior continued on through her life till she

was doing it about grandkids as well. She never even met some of her

great grandkids, my grandkids. What an utter slap that was. I always

felt like, what am I , chopped liver?

She wanted me to hate my dad, who she divorced, but then be as bubbly

and in love with her boy friends, many of whom were incarcerated

prisoners she met by writing letters, as she was.

Nothing had a true meaning with nada. What did it mean for her to say I

love you, if she would say it, and make it clear it was equal, to the

kid of a casual friend? If I was chastised for that girl with the big,

well that doesnt matter, that I never did get even a kiss from, what

difference did it make for her to talk about my drinking? She never got

it right, so why, and how, would I start to heed her?

By the way, her criticism of my drinking, which started at the age of

12, was not about you re too young, you may be on the road to being an

alcoholic, it will ruin your health. No, no. It was , you just hurt your

mother so badly by doing that.

You see what I mean? Nothing had a real meaning with nada. So nothing

nada said was ever taken seriously.

Any of you guys have similar stories? Praise that becomes meaningless,

criticism that becomes useless, being devalued as the person and child

that you were?

I m feeling a little sorry for myself tonite, guys. Sorry if that comes

thru in this post.

Doug

April 12, 2010

Karla - your post really resonated with me today. I'm always impressed at how

well people in this group articulate my own experiences!

I've been struggling for several years to make a living doing something I love.

I have my own business as an artist & decorative painter, and my business runs

in fits and starts because although I receive validation and praise for my work,

I have a real difficult time trusting it. I constantly struggle with marketing

and selling my work, and my friends (who are marketing experts and give me all

kinds of free advice) always wonder why.

As a kid, my nada would frame every single painting I ever made. She was not

selective at all, and even framed unfinished stuff and junk, and threw a fit

when I tried to take it down off her walls. But when it came time for me to

apply to college, she completely discouraged me from going to art school, and

told me I'd never make any money as an artist, and there was no way she was

going to support me if I was a " starving artist " . Talk about mixed messages! I

went on to become an engineer and after 15 years, decided to quit and start

painting again. Now I've managed to turn it into a business and even make a

little money, but I struggle all the time with keeping it going - because I'm a

KO.

I have a real hard time believing that I'm actually good at anything sometimes!

I have a terrific eye towards what everyone else needs & what their strengths

are, but am clueless about my own needs & strengths.

Oh, and Doug - my nada used to " adopt " my friends too. Nada would tell me that

if I ever had sex before I was married, she would disown me. But when I was in

high school, my friends would come over and talk to my nada about their sex

lives, and she would get all sympathetic and concerned and help them out when

they needed advice. I was terrified when I decided to move in with my boyfriend

(at age 24) that nada would find out and disown me, and had to make up all sorts

of elaborate schemes so she wouldn't know (I was living 3000 miles away). When

she did eventually find out (because I got diagnosed with cancer, and my

boyfriend ended up taking care of me), she was all concerned about what her

friends, neighbors and relatives would think and made a huge stink out of the

fact that I should never EVER tell them he was living with me.

Its no wonder I have a hard time feeling comfortable with my own decisions!

*sigh*

-

> >

> > Confused yet? Pondering the nadaness of nada. In this respect.

> >

> > Things were never what they seemed, or ought to be. For example, nada

> > would praise me effusively for little nothings. Accomplishments that

> > were meaningless would cause her to gush on and on. I think it was a

> > way of living her own life and lack of self esteem through me. But look

> > what that did.

> >

> > If she was overflowing in praise for what I knew to be a nothing thing,

> > then any praise for a real accomplishment became meaningless. It took

> > away from the satisfaction when I found things at which I could excel.

> >

> > Her criticisms were equally meaningless, for similar reasons. She would

> > not criticize directly as in pick up your socks, but complain about her

> > lack of cleanliness to another, and manage to shift the blame for the

> > house not being clean to me. I would then catch the criticism that I

> > need to help me mother more! So, the real criticism which would be

> > effective and true, you need to pick up your clothes and put them in the

> > laundry, was meaningless in view of you need to be the one responsible

> > for the house being cleaned.

> >

> > Another case in point, which combines nada s lack of bounderies and

> > sexual inappropriateness. She gets an anonymous phone call which

> > accuses me of having sex with a girl I knew. Nada s responce? She blows

> > up, accuses me of doing it, then wants a 14 year old boy to swear to her

> > that I would never consider having sex with some little hussy! Now the

> > girl in question, was hot, and I had it bad for her, but never had a

> > chance. At that time, I had never had sex at all. But to swear I would

> > nt do so? When, lets face it, a 14 year old boy, I thought about it all

> > the time and really wanted to give it a try. So this criticism was

> > useless, and emasculating.

> >

> > So her praises were meaningless, as were her criticisms, because none

> > were grounded in truth.

> >

> > Then there were relationships. I never understood this. She would "

> > adopt " kids, make them as special as I should have been, gush about

> > them, in front of me, and to me, as if I should think that was a

> > wonderful thing. This behavior continued on through her life till she

> > was doing it about grandkids as well. She never even met some of her

> > great grandkids, my grandkids. What an utter slap that was. I always

> > felt like, what am I , chopped liver?

> >

> > She wanted me to hate my dad, who she divorced, but then be as bubbly

> > and in love with her boy friends, many of whom were incarcerated

> > prisoners she met by writing letters, as she was.

> >

> > Nothing had a true meaning with nada. What did it mean for her to say I

> > love you, if she would say it, and make it clear it was equal, to the

> > kid of a casual friend? If I was chastised for that girl with the big,

> > well that doesnt matter, that I never did get even a kiss from, what

> > difference did it make for her to talk about my drinking? She never got

> > it right, so why, and how, would I start to heed her?

> >

> > By the way, her criticism of my drinking, which started at the age of

> > 12, was not about you re too young, you may be on the road to being an

> > alcoholic, it will ruin your health. No, no. It was , you just hurt your

> > mother so badly by doing that.

> >

> > You see what I mean? Nothing had a real meaning with nada. So nothing

> > nada said was ever taken seriously.

> >

> > Any of you guys have similar stories? Praise that becomes meaningless,

> > criticism that becomes useless, being devalued as the person and child

> > that you were?

> >

> > I m feeling a little sorry for myself tonite, guys. Sorry if that comes

> > thru in this post.

> >

> > Doug

> >

April 12, 2010

Doug,wow,I can relate to alot of this.

The " adopting " of surrogate children while I stood by as chopped liver,oh

yes.Nada was a grammar school teacher and she did play favorites.So and so was

this great kid,the ideal of kid--the kind of kid she'd always wanted.There were

outtings and visits to our home.Funny that,when some of these dream children

grew up and contacted her (remembering how wonderful she was) as young adults

with an ACTUAL problem they wanted her to advise on,she made herself air into

which she vanished.

There was also the mildly mentally retarded little girl she wanted to

adopt,the daughter of a " friend " who was pretty wacked herself.I was five.I

think the little girl was about two,or nearly so.Her " friend " had set her own

apartment on fire to get back at her ex husband.Long story,like I said,she was

as wacked as nada.The friend was staying with another friend of nada's and the

two of them decided to call CPS on the wacked friend in a twisted plot to have

the little girl turned over to nada as a foster child she would later adopt.

Nada had convinced herself that " God " had chosen her to raise a mentally

retarded child,that this was her mission in life.This little girl was the

daughter she " deserved " according to some divine plan.

A memory from that summer of plotting to call CPS to procure the little

girl: nada saying to me, " I'd give you away and keep M,but they'd send you back. "

I ratted nada out to the little girl's mother,as much as I knew she was

crazy as a loon herself.I told her nada was planning on calling CPS on her and

she disappeared one early dawn with the little girl,never to be seen or heard

from again.

Everything meaning nothing is relevant here because this wasn't a

straight up scenario of saving that child from nada's clutches.I'm not sure,even

now,what would have been worse: that kid being raised by her wacked mother or

being raised by nada.

Did telling the mother she was being plotted against mean anything

beyond me knowing that more than just being chopped liver if nada really got to

foster/adopt that little girl,that I was going to be utterly rejected--me the

penitence nada was doing,me the awful daughter she had done nothing to

deserve,me the scourge of her existence--that once she had her obedient little

blob,I'd be absolutely nothing to her?

I still feel guilt about that.Although I was only five years old.Like

guilt that I couldn't just call CPS on both of them??? Guilt for sending that

little girl down the river to spare myself from being discarded,yet her being

used by nada would have been I guess just as bad.

It *is* confusing,you know.It's really convoluted.It's damned hard

not to feel down about these things,when you think about them...and if you don't

think about them,you can't work them out.Maybe sometimes we should just

unapologetically feel sorry for ourselves,as we ponder these things,because it

effing hurts.And this is the place to sound it all out.

I'm glad you brought up this topic.Tripping through nada's hall of

mirrors until we see the way through?

I tend to recall nada's more outrageous stuff or memories I've retained

because they're symbolic of the rest or some of it of the more painful

things.What you mentioned in your post sounds so familiar but I remember the big

bang moments more than the dailiness of her disorder.

Like the sexual inappropriateness.Precise details of her destructiveness

aside (of me,I mean)--it seems to me that nadas just cannot let us BE our own

free sexual agents.They have to impose their version of themselves onto

us.Well,ok,I contradict myself: nada forced me to be sexualized WAY before that

was normal,as if I was an adult like her and not a child.In a tangible way,my

nada sold me into prostitution at the age of five,she just didn't collect any

monetary payment for it.Just what she believed was retribution for me having

been born and making her feel " bad " .Craziness,but that is what it was.What your

nada did to you,I think,is the other side of the same coin.To tell a 14 year old

boy to renounce his urges like a nun??? The way she spoke to you is as against

14 year old boyness as the way my nada was with me as a five year old who had no

sexuality forcing me to be sexual--it is a violation of how and who we were at

the time.Their criticism and their counsel is useless because it has NOTHING to

do with who we are.And in this case,of our sexuality,it strips us of our

essential beingness in the moment,wants to warp it into something it simply IS

NOT.To emasculate you at a time when nature was making you into a man--to whore

me up when nature had made me a little girl still and not a sexual woman--is

nada's agenda of insanity and it is so un-natural that it is meaningless except

as craziness.

I could go on and might,later,but for now...Please don't ever apologize

for being honest,I think it's great.