Re: Re: Seeking clarity on Nada's hypocrisy

[Guest guest]

>> " I hope if you ever have a daughter,you'll have one just like you<<

Yep, I got that too...followed with " Then you'll know how awful it is! "

Thing is...and granted, I don't have kids...but my oldest nannykid just turned 5

and he is a character. He is extremely strong willed and very very bright...he

negotiates and negotiates even if you don't engage him. (No lie...I once spent

half an hour saying over and over as my only response, " No, nobody in this house

hits anybody else for any reason. " because he kept saying " Hear me out! I have

another idea! " and then coming up with crazy scenarios under which he would be

allowed to hit one of his sisters. " What if it's raining, and {A} takes my

trains, and I can hit {E}?)

I kind of did " get " a kid a lot like I was and you know what? It's not awful

at ALL!! Takes a lot of extra effort, but I love it and am always laughing.

Take that, nada!

Ninera

>

> Subject: Re: Seeking clarity on Nada's hypocrisy

> To: WTOAdultChildren1

> Date: Thursday, April 22, 2010, 2:57 AM

> " I hope if you ever have a

> daughter,you'll have one just like you "

>

> I can REALLY relate to this quote because my nada would say

> this to me all the time! I would tell her to back off me

> because she was sooo overbearing and needy and everything I

> did was wrong. But when I complained, she would say " Just

> wait until you have kids! "

>

> Hypocrite is what she would call me. When I started going

> to church to seek some peace in my life, she would call me a

> hypocrite because I don't " forgive " her and I " dishonor my

> mother and father. "

>

> It was always a double standard. She always talked about

> people and ended up having to eat her words when

> confronted.

>

> AJ

>

> > >

> > > I'm a trifle confused. The Lawson book

> says that BP mothers feel justified in even the most

> outrageous abuses of their children. I think mine certainly

> did. Why then, would she loudly and pompously condemn other

> people who did the same? She always did that.

> > >

> > > Just one example was her syrupy sympathising with

> some poor kid whose mother used to say she wished she's

> aborted him. This was about twenty years ago, and I shot

> back at her, " You used to say that to ME all the time! " She

> said, " Oh well, if you'd had you for a daughter you'd have

> said it too. " Okay to say it to me, but not for anyone else,

> right?

> > >

> > > I'm sorry for being clueless; I'm fairly new to

> thinking about nada in the context of BPD.  Perhaps

> when all is said and done, Randi Kreger hits the mark in

> saying we should just expect them to behave in ways that

> make no sense.

> > >

> > > I wonder if any people here can shed light on

> this?

> > >

> > > Thanks for listening

> > >

> > > Louise

> > >

> >

>

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

> Problems? Ask our friendly List Manager for help at @....

> SEND HER ANY POSTS THAT CONCERN YOU; DO NOT Respond ON THE

> GROUP.

>

> To order the KO bible " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " call

> 888-35-SHELL () for your copy. We also refer to

> “Understanding the Borderline Mother†(Lawson) and

> “Surviving the Borderline Parent,†(Roth) which you can

> find at any bookstore. Welcome to the WTO community!

>

> From Randi Kreger, Owner BPDCentral, WTO Online Community

> and author SWOE and the SWOE Workbook.

[Guest guest]

I agree with this. And it's this perception I have come to as well that

makes me so angry with the people in my family who did NOTHING to help me.

Knowing my mother was ill, that she basically couldn't help herself and

needed someone to intervene, makes me want to throw up. I can hardly believe

they just left me there like a sitting duck.

In a message dated 4/22/2010 12:28:36 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

anuria-67854@... writes:

In my opinion its just not possible to have a rational conversation or a

rational relationship with an irrational person. Our mothers aren't sane.

Their bpd brains do not perceive reality in the same way that ours do, and

their bpd brains interpret incoming information in a negative way. So we keep

butting our heads against the brick wall of their insanity hoping to make a

dent in the wall, and we only succeed in denting our own heads.

And it hurts.

-Annie

>

> I'm a trifle confused. The Lawson book says that BP mothers

feel justified in even the most outrageous abuses of their children. I think

mine certainly did. Why then, would she loudly and pompously condemn other

people who did the same? She always did that.

>

> Just one example was her syrupy sympathising with some poor kid whose

mother used to say she wished she's aborted him. This was about twenty years

ago, and I shot back at her, " You used to say that to ME all the time! " She

said, " Oh well, if you'd had you for a daughter you'd have said it too. "

Okay to say it to me, but not for anyone else, right?

>

> I'm sorry for being clueless; I'm fairly new to thinking about nada in

the context of BPD. Perhaps when all is said and done, Randi Kreger hits the

mark in saying we should just expect them to behave in ways that make no

sense.

>

> I wonder if any people here can shed light on this?

>

> Thanks for listening

>

> Louise

>

[Guest guest]

Oh, yeah. I got that too. And a " I hope your kids lie as bad as you do "

when I wasn't lying.

My mother's big thing was always, " why are you stressed? <insert crazy

laughter> you have nothing to be stressed about! wait until you're my age! "

And she did this throughout my entire life....even through pregnancy and a

husband cheating on me.

In a message dated 4/22/2010 12:11:31 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

ninera73@... writes:

>> " I hope if you ever have a daughter,you' " I hope if you ever have a da<<

Yep, I got that too...followed with " Then you'll know how awful it is! "

Thing is...and granted, I don't have kids...but my oldest nannykid just

turned 5 and he is a character. He is extremely strong willed and very very

bright...he negotiates and negotiates even if you don't engage him. (No

lie...I once spent half an hour saying over and over as my only response, " No,

nobody in this house hits anybody else for any reason. " because he kept

saying " Hear me out! I have another idea! " and then coming up with crazy

scenarios under which he would be allowed to hit one of his sisters. " What if

it's raining, and {A} takes my trains, and I can hit {E}?)

I kind of did " get " a kid a lot like I was and you know what? It's not

awful at ALL!! Takes a lot of extra effort, but I love it and am always

laughing. Take that, nada!

Ninera

> From: aj91507 <_adriennedelatorre@adrienned_

(mailto:adriennedelatorre@...) >

> Subject: Re: Seeking clarity on Nada's hypocrisy

> To: _WTOAdultChildren1@WTOAdultChilWTO_

(mailto:WTOAdultChildren1 )

> Date: Thursday, April 22, 2010, 2:57 AM

> " I hope if you ever have a

> daughter,you' daughter,you'<WBR>ll have

>

> I can REALLY relate to this quote because my nada would say

> this to me all the time! I would tell her to back off me

> because she was sooo overbearing and needy and everything I

> did was wrong. But when I complained, she would say " Just

> wait until you have kids! "

>

> Hypocrite is what she would call me. When I started going

> to church to seek some peace in my life, she would call me a

> hypocrite because I don't " forgive " her and I " dishonor my

> mother and father. "

>

> It was always a double standard. She always talked about

> people and ended up having to eat her words when

> confronted.

>

> AJ

>

> > >

> > > I'm a trifle confused. The Lawson book

> says that BP mothers feel justified in even the most

> outrageous abuses of their children. I think mine certainly

> did. Why then, would she loudly and pompously condemn other

> people who did the same? She always did that.

> > >

> > > Just one example was her syrupy sympathising with

> some poor kid whose mother used to say she wished she's

> aborted him. This was about twenty years ago, and I shot

> back at her, " You used to say that to ME all the time! " She

> said, " Oh well, if you'd had you for a daughter you'd have

> said it too. " Okay to say it to me, but not for anyone else,

> right?

> > >

> > > I'm sorry for being clueless; I'm fairly new to

> thinking about nada in the context of BPD. Perhaps

> when all is said and done, Randi Kreger hits the mark in

> saying we should just expect them to behave in ways that

> make no sense.

> > >

> > > I wonder if any people here can shed light on

> this?

> > >

> > > Thanks for listening

> > >

> > > Louise

> > >

> >

>

>

>

>

> ------------ -------- -------- -----

>

> Problems? Ask our friendly List Manager for help at

_@..._ (mailto:@...) .

> SEND HER ANY POSTS THAT CONCERN YOU; DO NOT Respond ON THE

> GROUP.

>

> To order the KO bible " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " call

> 888-35-SHELL () for your copy. We also refer to

> “Understanding the Borderline Mother†(Lawson) and

> “Surviving the Borderline Parent,†(Roth) which you can

> find at any bookstore. Welcome to the WTO community!

>

> From Randi Kreger, Owner BPDCentral, WTO Online Community

> and author SWOE and the SWOE Workbook.

[Guest guest]

Interesting ideas. I agree with you. But I also wonder if they really want

to be 'bad' or if they just can't stop themselves. I know a lot of you here

feel your mothers could control it since they seemed to in public. My

mother did the same thing. A lot of what she did, though, eventually came out

to friends. And the family -- the entire family -- knew exactly how she was

and did nothing to stop her.

I am in a blaming my family stage. I haven't spoken to my father in weeks.

I am lost in what to do but my aunt and uncle are on my s-list because

they keep sending me emails or making calls telling me to 'move on' and 'get

over the past.' My aunt even had the audacity to tell me to 'stop acting'

like my mother!! Ugh. My whole family is one giant lunatic.

In a message dated 4/21/2010 10:59:31 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

charlottehoneychurch@... writes:

My take on this is that bpds are aware that the abuses they commit

compulsively are 'bad', and that is part of why they enjoy them. Think of that

little gleam that nada gets in her eye whenever she issues a zinger, a truly

abusive statement--as if she's being a bad girl, and isn't she cute, and

isn't it fun?

This is a complicated dynamic, so bear with me. I think the bpd needs to

inflict the pain of the abuse. It's a compulsion, and the reason they need

to do it IS because it hurts the other person. But they would have to split

themselves black, literally burst into flames (well, almost literally), so

they have to deny that they're doing the abuse, or that the abuse is their

fault.

My nada had specific methods of compulsive abuse on which she was fixated,

and she overcompensated for her badness by being obsessed with that abuse

when she saw anyone else doing it. Every time she saw a child on a TV

commercial, she would explode, disgustedly, and say 'I can't stand EXPLOITATION

of children'. These commercials of course were not portrarying the children

in a sexual way--that would have been illegal! But nada was imagining that

they were, and protesting--My nada had specific methods of compulsive abuse

on which she was fixated, and she overcompensated for her badness by being

obsessed with that abuse when she saw anyone else doing it. Every time she

saw a child on a TV commercial, she would explode, disgustedly,

They know what they do to their children and families is 'bad'. They're

overcompensating by trying to demonstrate to the world they are the opposite.

They are also trying very hard to gaslight their children/themselves into

believing the abuse didn't occur. If they are so generous/gentle/They know

what they do to their children and families is 'bad'. They're

overcompensating by trying to

This is how I've always understood it.

--Charlie

> >

> > I'm a trifle confused. The Lawson book says that BP mothers

feel justified in even the most outrageous abuses of their children. I

think mine certainly did. Why then, would she loudly and pompously condemn

other people who did the same? She always did that.

> >

> > Just one example was her syrupy sympathising with some poor kid whose

mother used to say she wished she's aborted him. This was about twenty

years ago, and I shot back at her, " You used to say that to ME all the time! "

She said, " Oh well, if you'd had you for a daughter you'd have said it too. "

Okay to say it to me, but not for anyone else, right?

> >

> > I'm sorry for being clueless; I'm fairly new to thinking about nada in

the context of BPD. Perhaps when all is said and done, Randi Kreger hits

the mark in saying we should just expect them to behave in ways that make no

sense.

> >

> > I wonder if any people here can shed light on this?

> >

> > Thanks for listening

> >

> > Louise

> >

>

[Guest guest]

LOL yup, me and my siblings have been told this

Jackie

" I hope if you ever have a daughter,you'll have one just like you "

I can REALLY relate to this quote because my nada would say this to me all

the time! I would tell her to back off me because she was sooo overbearing

and needy and everything I did was wrong. But when I complained, she would

say " Just wait until you have kids! "

Hypocrite is what she would call me. When I started going to church to seek

some peace in my life, she would call me a hypocrite because I don't

" forgive " her and I " dishonor my mother and father. "

It was always a double standard. She always talked about people and ended up

having to eat her words when confronted.

AJ

[Guest guest]

oh, yeah, thats a scary look !!

Jackie

My take on this is that bpds are aware that the abuses they commit

compulsively are 'bad', and that is part of why they enjoy them. Think of

that little gleam that nada gets in her eye whenever she issues a zinger, a

truly abusive statement--as if she's being a bad girl, and isn't she cute,

and isn't it fun?

This is a complicated dynamic, so bear with me. I think the bpd needs to

inflict the pain of the abuse. It's a compulsion, and the reason they need

to do it IS because it hurts the other person. But they would have to split

themselves black, literally burst into flames (well, almost literally), so

they have to deny that they're doing the abuse, or that the abuse is their

fault.

My nada had specific methods of compulsive abuse on which she was fixated,

and she overcompensated for her badness by being obsessed with that abuse

when she saw anyone else doing it. Every time she saw a child on a TV

commercial, she would explode, disgustedly, and say 'I can't stand

EXPLOITATION of children'. These commercials of course were not portrarying

the children in a sexual way--that would have been illegal! But nada was

imagining that they were, and protesting--because that was her thing. My

narcissist father, who's thing was to steal and exploit financially, would

go out of his way to be unexpectedly generous to poor people. He would

approach random beggars and the like, and hand them hundreds of dollars in

cash.

They know what they do to their children and families is 'bad'. They're

overcompensating by trying to demonstrate to the world they are the

opposite. They are also trying very hard to gaslight their

children/themselves into believing the abuse didn't occur. If they are so

generous/gentle/such defenders of vulnerable people, how could they possibly

have hurt you? You must be imagining it.

This is how I've always understood it.

--Charlie

[Guest guest]

YES!!! nada used to always tell me this when I still lived with

them...well, lets see, I live with a crazy person, her husband thinks

nothing is wrong, I have to do well in school or get yelled at, I have to do

all the house cleaning work the exact way she wants ( and the way may

change unexpectedly without notice) all the laundry, strip all beds, remake

them, work at my job...nope, nothing stressful there !!

Jackie

My mother's big thing was always, " why are you stressed? <insert crazy

laughter> you have nothing to be stressed about! wait until you're my age! "

And she did this throughout my entire life....even through pregnancy and a

husband cheating on me.

[Guest guest]

YES!!! nada used to always tell me this when I still lived with

them...well, lets see, I live with a crazy person, her husband thinks

nothing is wrong, I have to do well in school or get yelled at, I have to do

all the house cleaning work the exact way she wants ( and the way may

change unexpectedly without notice) all the laundry, strip all beds, remake

them, work at my job...nope, nothing stressful there !!

Jackie

My mother's big thing was always, " why are you stressed? <insert crazy

laughter> you have nothing to be stressed about! wait until you're my age! "

And she did this throughout my entire life....even through pregnancy and a

husband cheating on me.

[Guest guest]

it sure looks like nada does enjoy attacing us and hurting us :-(

Jackie

Hi Jackie - Charlie also touched on the glint in an earlier post. All of the

books say that nobody chooses to be like this, and of course we can

understand that nobody asks to be BPD. IT's just a crying scourge that some

BPs seem to have so much fun being abusive, isn't it?

[Guest guest]

thanks Doug, but now I live the way *I* want to live...so sometimes I dont

vaccum when I should and there's dog hair everywhere LOL

Jackie

Wow Jackie.

You wanna come stay at my house for a while? Sounds like you are a

bargain! LOL

Doug

[Guest guest]

Annie, thank you for posting the link regarding narcissistic mothers. It has

made a major impact on me.

My mother is low functioning BP and only has a few of the narcissistic traits

described (though she did enjoy being cruel and relished being feared). However,

my mother-replacement (my ex) fit these descriptions extremely well.

I'm having trouble forgiving myself for " what I've done to my mother " and making

the whole BP mother thing make sense when my traumatized brain has kindly filled

my memory full of holes. I read here, but don't write much because I'm still

unraveling denial and also, my schedule is distressingly full.

In the meantime, the guilt I've carried for my ex's son has been relieved by

reading about narcissistic mothers. Her son wanted nothing to do with her, even

after she shot herself and I had her ashes to send to someone, anyone. All this

time I've worried that I somehow had something to do with their continued

estrangement, that I somehow stood in the way of his closure. Well, no.

She was a narcissistic BP. Which means she treated him very like the description

of narcissistic mothers, no matter what stories she told. She had to be at least

as cruelly malevolent to him as she was to me. It must have been so much worse

for the developing mind of a vulnerable only son. He could not fight back. All

those horrible stories she told of how abusively other mothers acted ... I

wonder if those stories were really about her. It's hard to say since every

other sentence was a lie.

What I did do wrong was say to him, " She's still your mother. " Of all people,

*I* should have known how terribly hurtful, dismissive and confusing that was.

People say that to me about my nada. It's shocking that I could say that,

holding a mother-son picture in my mind that was miles from the truth, even

miles from my own truth. Of course, I was emotionally and financially devastated

and stressed to the max at the time, but still. I should have understood.

Neither he nor his father contacted me about the ashes. Good for them.

B.

---- anuria67854 wrote:

> In my opinion, the nadas who seem to relish inflicting pain and slipping a

verbal stiletto blade between your ribs are the nadas who have a lot of

narcissistic pd traits.

>

> This link has been posted before but its so relevant to this thread, and

perhaps some of the newer members haven't read it before. Its a list of the

" Characteristics of Narcissistic PD Mothers. "

>

> My nada has exhibited a lot of these behaviors.

>

> Here's the link:

> http://sites.google.com/site/harpyschild/

>

> -Annie

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

I just cannot imagine how you got over these psychological mines your parents

planted in your psyche....to blame not getting a PhD on you! First of all, if

he didn't want kids, he didn't have to have them.

You know it is almost like the regular feelings parents might have but not

express or not give credence to. Because I think it's normal to *blame* someone

other than one's self for problems, but if you have a self identity and an

understanding of self responsibility you let the thought pass, you certainly

don't voice it, and not to a child! And some how with these mental illnesses,

the parents just say whatever the hell comes into their minds with out a check.

I know my mother did. So when she might say she was proud of me for my

accomplishments (in college and for being a good responsible kid) I also

remember the ways in which she didn't take care of me, hindered me, and said:

don't ever get married and don't ever have kids.

They must have such a fragile sense of self that they cannot even look at

themselves for self reflection. I do that all the time and granted I probably

am way too down on myself but I think about what I say and how I affect people

and apologize when needed (that is something I grew into).

sorry you had to live with that; I am amazed at how you can reflect on it all

and I know it leaves you with scars but you are incredibly insightful and

compassionate in spite of all that.

~patricia

Re: Seeking clarity on Nada's hypocrisy

Charlie,you've brought up a really interesting aspect of this.That is

definitely a part of what my parents were doing: overcompensating.

To someone on the outside who can't see what it really is,the ones on

the " inside " (who know the reality) seem very mean spirited and petty. " But your

mother/father does so much for... "

So we get doubly or triply or massively gaslighted.

This dynamic also reminds me of,say,politicians(or religious types)

who are the most vociferously anti-gay and work publically to pass anti-gay

legislation...and then as if inexplicably,turn out to be--gasp-- closeted gays

themselves...I think that when *anyone* protests too much,overcompensation is

the reason behind it.

My parents were doing just that,as were yours.But mine also used me

as an all purpose scapegoat in addition to that and had convinced themselves

that I had victimized them.To such an absurd degree: fada also blames me for

never getting his PhD.Because he couldn't leave nada alone with *me*!

Not: I can't leave my daughter alone with an abusive mother,but...I

can't leave my poor innocent wife alone with that little monster.Like,what was I

really going to do with her when I was 4/5/6...but that is what he thought--or

wanted to think.Hey,don't worry about maybe not measuring up to PhD level course

work,just blame your kid and it can be *her* fault forever.He went to his

deathbed " thinking " I had been the reason he never got his PhD.

>

> My take on this is that bpds are aware that the abuses they commit

compulsively are 'bad', and that is part of why they enjoy them. Think of that

little gleam that nada gets in her eye whenever she issues a zinger, a truly

abusive statement--as if she's being a bad girl, and isn't she cute, and isn't

it fun?

>

> This is a complicated dynamic, so bear with me. I think the bpd needs to

inflict the pain of the abuse. It's a compulsion, and the reason they need to

do it IS because it hurts the other person. But they would have to split

themselves black, literally burst into flames (well, almost literally), so they

have to deny that they're doing the abuse, or that the abuse is their fault.

>

> My nada had specific methods of compulsive abuse on which she was fixated,

and she overcompensated for her badness by being obsessed with that abuse when

she saw anyone else doing it. Every time she saw a child on a TV commercial,

she would explode, disgustedly, and say 'I can't stand EXPLOITATION of

children'. These commercials of course were not portrarying the children in a

sexual way--that would have been illegal! But nada was imagining that they

were, and protesting--because that was her thing. My narcissist father, who's

thing was to steal and exploit financially, would go out of his way to be

unexpectedly generous to poor people. He would approach random beggars and the

like, and hand them hundreds of dollars in cash.

>

> They know what they do to their children and families is 'bad'. They're

overcompensating by trying to demonstrate to the world they are the opposite.

They are also trying very hard to gaslight their children/themselves into

believing the abuse didn't occur. If they are so generous/gentle/such defenders

of vulnerable people, how could they possibly have hurt you? You must be

imagining it.

>

> This is how I've always understood it.

>

> --Charlie

>

>

------------------------------------

Problems? Ask our friendly List Manager for help at @....

SEND HER ANY POSTS THAT CONCERN YOU; DO NOT Respond ON THE GROUP.

To order the KO bible " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " call 888-35-SHELL

() for your copy. We also refer to " Understanding the Borderline

Mother " (Lawson) and " Surviving the Borderline Parent, " (Roth) which you can

find at any bookstore. Welcome to the WTO community!

From Randi Kreger, Owner BPDCentral, WTO Online Community and author SWOE and

the SWOE Workbook.

[Guest guest]

oh, I'm amazed too at 's saneness, compassion and normalcy too !!

she's a strong lady :-)

Jackie

Hi ,

I just cannot imagine how you got over these psychological mines your

parents planted in your psyche....to blame not getting a PhD on you! First

of all, if he didn't want kids, he didn't have to have them.

You know it is almost like the regular feelings parents might have but not

express or not give credence to. Because I think it's normal to *blame*

someone other than one's self for problems, but if you have a self identity

and an understanding of self responsibility you let the thought pass, you

certainly don't voice it, and not to a child! And some how with these

mental illnesses, the parents just say whatever the hell comes into their

minds with out a check. I know my mother did. So when she might say she

was proud of me for my accomplishments (in college and for being a good

responsible kid) I also remember the ways in which she didn't take care of

me, hindered me, and said: don't ever get married and don't ever have kids.

They must have such a fragile sense of self that they cannot even look at

themselves for self reflection. I do that all the time and granted I

probably am way too down on myself but I think about what I say and how I

affect people and apologize when needed (that is something I grew into).

sorry you had to live with that; I am amazed at how you can reflect on it

all and I know it leaves you with scars but you are incredibly insightful

and compassionate in spite of all that.

~patricia