Guest guest Posted April 25, 2010 Report Share Posted April 25, 2010 Hey Jackie, Yeah, it is sad that my dad did not mention us in his will; he had a huge book collection that I naturally thought would come to me. He was writing a book on the civil war and I fantasized that I would finish it for him. There were a bunch of things that I gave him for gifts that I wanted back. I do not understand why his wife has with held thing from us. I try to get past it, but I just can't. Because I don't understand it at all. With my mom, my dad seemed to just avoid. He had a lot of mental illness in his family. He saw her depression as a weakness, which I think is wrong. When I was depressed and told him I went on meds, he told me I was being just like my mom (wrong thing to say, right?) He was living in a way that denied his own connections in life (the mental illnesses of his brothers and probably his mother, his step mother's alcoholism, his father's distance ). He found a woman he could love very much and I was happy for him. But he left us (kids) after that...we had some connection but not much. And it broke my heart when he died. ~patricia Re: Re: gaslighting hi , when I could get my father away from nada, he was almost a normal parent..mature, caring, understanding and empathetic...when he was around nada, he was just lint on the floor. Thats sad your own father didnt mention his first kids in his will :-( Jackie Hi Jackie I guess it is all sad dealing with these people who happened to be our parents. In some way, my mother gave more to me than my dad. Ironically I got a letter today from his law office. His brother (my uncle; estranged) passed away this past year, and I guess being his living descendents or maybe he put us kids in his will? I have no idea, but we each received two hundred dollars. (me, my brother and I am guessing each of my sister's kids). Of course the lawyers got 1,000 of it. But my dad...he left us nothing, and it was *his* law office. It sort of brought up a bunch of hard feelings. Ah well. What you describe makes sense in that weird FOG kind of way. I hate it when people can't be *real* and that is probably why (FOG) ~patricia ------------------------------------ Problems? Ask our friendly List Manager for help at @.... SEND HER ANY POSTS THAT CONCERN YOU; DO NOT Respond ON THE GROUP. To order the KO bible " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " call 888-35-SHELL () for your copy. We also refer to " Understanding the Borderline Mother " (Lawson) and " Surviving the Borderline Parent, " (Roth) which you can find at any bookstore. Welcome to the WTO community! From Randi Kreger, Owner BPDCentral, WTO Online Community and author SWOE and the SWOE Workbook. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 25, 2010 Report Share Posted April 25, 2010 Hey Jackie, Yeah, it is sad that my dad did not mention us in his will; he had a huge book collection that I naturally thought would come to me. He was writing a book on the civil war and I fantasized that I would finish it for him. There were a bunch of things that I gave him for gifts that I wanted back. I do not understand why his wife has with held thing from us. I try to get past it, but I just can't. Because I don't understand it at all. With my mom, my dad seemed to just avoid. He had a lot of mental illness in his family. He saw her depression as a weakness, which I think is wrong. When I was depressed and told him I went on meds, he told me I was being just like my mom (wrong thing to say, right?) He was living in a way that denied his own connections in life (the mental illnesses of his brothers and probably his mother, his step mother's alcoholism, his father's distance ). He found a woman he could love very much and I was happy for him. But he left us (kids) after that...we had some connection but not much. And it broke my heart when he died. ~patricia Re: Re: gaslighting hi , when I could get my father away from nada, he was almost a normal parent..mature, caring, understanding and empathetic...when he was around nada, he was just lint on the floor. Thats sad your own father didnt mention his first kids in his will :-( Jackie Hi Jackie I guess it is all sad dealing with these people who happened to be our parents. In some way, my mother gave more to me than my dad. Ironically I got a letter today from his law office. His brother (my uncle; estranged) passed away this past year, and I guess being his living descendents or maybe he put us kids in his will? I have no idea, but we each received two hundred dollars. (me, my brother and I am guessing each of my sister's kids). Of course the lawyers got 1,000 of it. But my dad...he left us nothing, and it was *his* law office. It sort of brought up a bunch of hard feelings. Ah well. What you describe makes sense in that weird FOG kind of way. I hate it when people can't be *real* and that is probably why (FOG) ~patricia ------------------------------------ Problems? Ask our friendly List Manager for help at @.... SEND HER ANY POSTS THAT CONCERN YOU; DO NOT Respond ON THE GROUP. To order the KO bible " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " call 888-35-SHELL () for your copy. We also refer to " Understanding the Borderline Mother " (Lawson) and " Surviving the Borderline Parent, " (Roth) which you can find at any bookstore. Welcome to the WTO community! From Randi Kreger, Owner BPDCentral, WTO Online Community and author SWOE and the SWOE Workbook. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 25, 2010 Report Share Posted April 25, 2010 >>I want to get into Public Health because I want to help people in a way that actually helps.<< ...Public Health rules...that was my college major, Public Health Education and Health Promotion, with a concentration in Addiction Studies. (Actually, I double minored in Substance Abuse Prevention, Intervention, and Treatment as well as in Human Sexuality...literally went to college to study sex and drugs! All I needed was a music minor, lol) Although, the further I got into my program, the more I was drawn to the epidemiolgy side of it. But still...so many different ways to go with it. I think everyone I went to school with who is working in the field is doing something different! Ninera > > Subject: Re: Re: gaslighting > To: WTOAdultChildren1 > Date: Saturday, April 24, 2010, 2:25 PM > Hi , > Thank you for your compassion about my pain/injury. I > had a fall at work on my left butt and then I work in this > sort of left facing way, bending and lifting. It has > loosened my S-I joint which is not supposed to move. > First I went to my doctor, he sent me to the chiropractor > and I went there for weeks, then to a specialist (first back > to the doctor). That specialist prescribed P/T for > twelve visits. I had a trip planned in between that, > and when I got back I went to four visits and then they > said: oh that is all you are covered for. Went back to > specialist she gives me a shot (no x-ray) and says come > back. But she also says: well what do you want me to > do? She won't give me a no-working note. > Why? And why ask me what do I want her to do? > Meanwhile dealing with workers comp insurance, getting > approvals etc. > > I go away and shot doesn't work come back and dr says; I > don't know what to do for you. We can do an MRI > because your x-rays are fine. Am *I* the doctor? > Have I studied for years this stuff? Am *I* the only > one who has unrelenting pain because of work? She > tells me I should find another job. I said: > what? Am I supposed to leave a job where I have a > claim (I would lose my claim if I leave, there is a > protocol); limp away? To what? Another job that > aggravates my sacrum but can get no workers comp or > insurance or time off with pay? > How out of touch can these people be? > > I went back to my dr and he sends me (for some reason as > the last resort??) to a spine specialist. This guy > explains to me exactly what is wrong and why I need an > injection with an x-ray. I am so grateful to finally > understand what is wrong with me, why the brace I had before > did not work, etc. Finally relieved to have a > plan. So I call his reception to give information for > insurance approval and asked for pain medication because the > night before I was dying in pain. And I am alone here, > no one to massage my legs and butt area where it hurts so > bad. Ibuprofen doesn't work. I make the mistake > of saying alcohol helps it. > > So I am taking a nap and the phone goes off and I answer > because of all these insurance and dr calls i have > out. The new dr says: I don't understand why you are > asking me for painkillers, like, why now? You have had > this injury since june of 09. You've seen me one time > and you are asking me now? (his concern of course is > that I am using him to get narcotics and then going t my reg > dr saying my script ran out and can i get more). > > Well he does not know me at all! And I was like a > deer in headlights. I asked myself: why now? And I > couldn't articulate that I felt like I was finally with the > right doctor who could help me get a hold on this really > painful condition. That I normally tolerate pain and > endure a lot of pain (probably sounds familiar to a lot of > people here). How could I tell him that I am having a > hard time managing EVERYthing in my life because I am going > through intense complicated grief at the same time and this > pain is wearing me down? > > All while he is having this weird accusing tone? When > he was so nice in the office. He says: don't take > ibuprofen it could cause bleeding in the stomach. And > alcohol is bad too. I will call your dr and ask > him. He calls back later and leaves a message saying: > your doctor said no. > You should talk to him. I call my dr's nurse and she > says: he says you should talk to your actual primary > dr. (Who is usually not easy to get into see because > he started another practice doing laser). WTF!! > Talk about triggering issues of pain not being taken care > of! > > My pain, as a child, was never never addressed. I had > some accidents and was never held and shushhed. My > father (the non emotional one) always took me to the dr or > hospital for stitches. Our dentist did not use > novacaine on us. I have a huge avoidance to dental > work now. Even though I need it. Even if just a > cleaning. > And now, here I am suffering and they are acting like I am > a druggie. My sister died from that! > > My reaction is to go into victim, sad mode. Poor > me. But I have people encouraging me to get mad and > demand help (these are guys). But I will say something > when I get my shot; I have this fear that he won't help me > now. It has added to my stress in life in a way I did > not need at all. > > Sorry this is long; i probably am repeating myself. > But I just can't believe it! (Although when I went to > the gynecologist and told her that I feel during PMS i am > almost suicidal, which is not normal; normally I am just > bitchy, she looked at me blankly. She said: I can put > you on the pill but only for three years (til 50); and I > don't do well with the pill at all, it makes me > depressed. She mentioned antidepressants (drs must be > glad to be able to go to that and send you away) and pretty > much left the room) > > I really can understand now what my sister went through > with her doctor situation; the judgments they had, the > unwillingness to understand her life and how to really help > her. Ironically, I have barely done drugs in my > life. I drink now at night, because it is the only > thing that helps my sadness and pain, the ONLY thing. > I have one, maybe two drinks. That is it. I live > alone, have incredible grief, have a child who needs help in > school but is being > refused (illegally in my opinion) and I have bad pain in > the area of my body that keeps me from doing what usually > helps me which is hiking and dancing. (Dr told me the > only thing I could do is tread water...pay ten dollars a > shot to go in a pool somewhere...where I don't know to tread > water) >  > I want to get into Public Health because I want to help > people in a way that actually helps. But maybe I > should educate doctors ...I wonder if that is an aspect of > public health that I could get hired for.... > Now there is an idea! > If you read this long, thank you > ~patricia >  Re: gaslighting > > >  Hi , > >        What a > shame you're having joint pain.I don't have that,but have > had some health problems at times and I know how they can > just wear you down.Wow,that really sucks! Did you have > problems getting a good painkiller from your doctor that > would work for you? I remember the last time I had a really > bad sore throat (not as bothersome in the long term as joint > pain,but...) and my doctor refused to give me codeine.It's > like they're so paranoid people are going to abuse > painkillers,sometimes ridiculously so.I'm telling her it > really really hurt and she's telling me " I only prescribe > codeine in total emergencies and even then,if I can avoid > it,I don't... " But it *was* an emergency!!! > >        Have you > tried bio-identical progesterone cream? I know someone who > had joint pain related to the beginnings of real menopause > and using that helped her.Although it doesn't sound like > that's what is causing yours? Just a thought,anyway. > >        My ex > wife...No,I don't think she's *really* happy.I don't want to > write too many possibly identifying details since after all > I'm speaking of her without her consent,but she did go on to > have a very high profile job (on an international > level)--then after a couple of years she resigned.That is > what she'd do: land these prestige positions and then if > there was even a hint that she *might* be called onto the > carpet for something (I'm talking relatively minor > stuff--nobody is perfect),instead of staying and > fighting,she'd bow out " gracefully " .Go on to the next > job,then to the next one. > >       She can't bear > the ignominy of (even passing defeat),so she cuts and > runs.As far as I know,that hasn't changed.If she called me > and said: I have this really wonderful relationship and I'm > so happy with it/and/I found the perfect job and I'm really > sticking with it and I really trust in myself now to do it > well...I would simply be glad for her.I can't really say > that,to be honest,about most of my other exes.I'd still feel > that pang of ego woundedness,like,what do you mean,you're > really happy (HAPPIER!) without me,but we really lived > something together the two of us.We really tried to make it > work.I didn't doubt her love for me and she knew I truly > loved her.It's still there,just not as it was when we were > together.It's like the possessiveness of coupledom is gone > but the good will remains. > >      And I think both of us > feel pain (for the other) that we weren't able to be totally > what we needed at the time or enough at the time to really > be that help that would rectify the past or heal us.Reading > your posts (since much of what you say is like her > issues),I've had a gradual epiphany about what went wrong.I > see that I judged her--or misjudged her--harshly sometimes > because of my own issues.I feel like I understand her > better,ten years too late.Which doesn't mean that I want to > get back with her.I don't.It's not the same anymore as it > was.But understanding better where she was coming from > brings a fuller feeling of closure.Or,it seems to me right > now,a more mature assessment of the relationship with alot > less self pity clouding the memory of it . > >       What you said > about not being able to act out by being bad or doing > drugs,ha,that was like my ex wife too.She was too > conditioned to be responsible to just " let go " like > that.Like doing stuff like that was too alien to how she was > *supposed* to be.She drank sometimes when she was under alot > of stress,but not like an alcoholic (although when she > did,she worried she'd become one).She had a hard time in > general relaxing,so her drinking was always only at home and > she had to have a " reason " for it: like I need some Cognac > so I can sleep tonight--and yet--I feel really " bad " for > even having it but I need it but...One time I jokingly said > that we should just get really blasted together and see what > we got up to,just for fun...and she was horrified. > >        You shouldn't > have been expected to take care of your mother when you were > in grade school!! Or expected to take care of her at all,of > course.My ex wife's Waif nada had " spells " sometimes lasting > weeks when she would take to her bed.And she was expected to > nurse her.She said the same thing you did,about being scared > of her pain yet loving her--and frightened by how strange > she was acting.She had no one to go to say:*I* feel > scared...it was all:what can you do for your poor > mother...your poor mother...who is the one who needs > help... > >       And so it was > extremely difficult for my ex wife to ever say: I have a > need...I need help...my need is legitimate and I expect it > to be addressed.She hoped that others would guess what she > needed since saying it out loud would lead to a > rejection,she thought. > >       But if I told > her: If you just tell me what you need and if I can provide > it,I will do so immediately or ASAP and I will be delighted > to...then she'd go back to the: It's not really that > important,I'll adjust...I shouldn't have brought it > up,forget about it... > >      She definitely felt like > she was not " allowed " to express her needs or her pain,even > when I *thought* I was giving her permission to.Like if I > thought she was complaining,I'd get tired of her.She seemed > to think that her being sad was some kind of mortal sin. > >      It's interesting what > you said about your sister being a mirror to > you.Incidentally,my ex wife was close to her little sister > from their teenage years but never close to her older > sister.She used to say that *I* was like a mirror to her. > >       I think it's good > that your roles are disappearing.That,now,you can have more > freedom to discover what *your* role is,for you.To no longer > have to fix your family,but to tend to yourself.You deserve > that--it's not selfish.Not at all. > >        > >       > >  >  > >  > Hi , >  > This is very interesting what you wrote about > your place in the family and your *role* and what it seems > that nadas *need*. I mean the three-child thing can > fill that pretty readily but the less than three not so > good. >  > >  > I'm sorry that you felt *less-than* because of > what your mother was acting out. I was also the little > adult. And also criticized for being that way at > different times. I don't even know really how this has > shaped me; what I mean is I don't know who I am without this > persona. I think that is why I feel so sad without my > sister (I mean other obvious reasons) because she gave me a > sort of mirror to myself. She knew me. But she > also would be one of those that would say: you are too > serious. >  > So yeah, I was depended on heavily but in that > weird way, not respected. And so I became this adult person > who accepts not being respected and doesn't even know when > it is happening. >  > >  > You are so very articulate in describing your > ex-wife's feelings of lost-ness and alienation. In a > way I can relate; being *lost* not having a sense of not > understanding my pain in this part of my life and that is > scary; I cannot act out by being bad or doing drugs etc. >  > That poor poor woman; how could someone treat a > baby that way; their own child? (My parents were not > like that). This world is crazy. >  > In a lot of ways her position sounds like > mine. My brother was " the artist " (golden one) and my > sister was the baby; I had to take care of my mom with all > her crisises. One time when I was in elementary > school, my mother cracked her pelvis falling on the > steps. I was somehow the one to stay home from school > to watch after her! I remember how scared I was > because my mom was in so much pain. There is this > weird thing because you love your mom, but you are scared of > this *person* who is in pain and acting strange, like a > wounded animal. >  > >  > So yeah...this weird attachment. And I > think you are onto something...not having a *role* at > school, not having boundaries and everyone else just > crowding in. You are right; the feeling I get about > not getting off the bus is one of *protest*. >  > I am also afraid of having people spot my flaws > and I am very defensive. When I would go to see Khasha > (when he lived five minutes down the road, I would spend two > hours getting ready, even though it was fun, that says > something). >  > >  > I can relate too, to what you say about your > ex, saying things like: I have no reason to be down, I'm > just whining. I just wrote to Khasha about this > chronic sacral-iliac pain that I am just being a baby > (because I am so sad about it and complaining, like I am not > allowed). >  > >  > That is so sad about her identifying with > Casper. Sometimes I feel like a ghost anymore. I > mean, my role(s) are disappearing; I am not longer looking > after and trying to help my sister and her kids, my mom has > my niece there, my son is a teenager (I know he needs me > but....in three years he is technically an adult). I > go my way every day with no one to see me or account > to. >  > >  > Do you know if your ex is happy or what she is > doing? I understand what you are saying; you are very > compassionate. It's funny, I feel that way towards > Khasha. I actually really love him, not the sort of > superficial love of *what can he do for me* but I just love > him. I don't want him to be with anyone else but I > don't want him unhappy either. >  > Ah well. I have another story to tell > about my request for painkillers from the new doctor I saw > for my SI joint pain. >  > ~patricia >  > ps..thank you for articulating this so clearly > it helps me a lot because even though I am very analytical > and thoughtful about things I don't understand certain parts > of myself. >  >   >  > >  > >  > >  > >  > >   ------------------------------------ >  > >  >   Problems? Ask our friendly > List Manager for help at @... SEND HER ANY POSTS > THAT CONCERN YOU; DO NOT Respond ON THE GROUP. >  > >  >   To order the KO bible " Stop > Walking on Eggshells, " call 888-35-SHELL () for > your copy. We also refer to " Understanding the Borderline > Mother " (Lawson) and " Surviving the Borderline Parent, " > (Roth) which you can find at any bookstore. Welcome to the > WTO community! >  > >  >   From Randi Kreger, Owner > BPDCentral, WTO Online Community and author SWOE and the > SWOE Workbook. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 25, 2010 Report Share Posted April 25, 2010 >>I want to get into Public Health because I want to help people in a way that actually helps.<< ...Public Health rules...that was my college major, Public Health Education and Health Promotion, with a concentration in Addiction Studies. (Actually, I double minored in Substance Abuse Prevention, Intervention, and Treatment as well as in Human Sexuality...literally went to college to study sex and drugs! All I needed was a music minor, lol) Although, the further I got into my program, the more I was drawn to the epidemiolgy side of it. But still...so many different ways to go with it. I think everyone I went to school with who is working in the field is doing something different! Ninera > > Subject: Re: Re: gaslighting > To: WTOAdultChildren1 > Date: Saturday, April 24, 2010, 2:25 PM > Hi , > Thank you for your compassion about my pain/injury. I > had a fall at work on my left butt and then I work in this > sort of left facing way, bending and lifting. It has > loosened my S-I joint which is not supposed to move. > First I went to my doctor, he sent me to the chiropractor > and I went there for weeks, then to a specialist (first back > to the doctor). That specialist prescribed P/T for > twelve visits. I had a trip planned in between that, > and when I got back I went to four visits and then they > said: oh that is all you are covered for. Went back to > specialist she gives me a shot (no x-ray) and says come > back. But she also says: well what do you want me to > do? She won't give me a no-working note. > Why? And why ask me what do I want her to do? > Meanwhile dealing with workers comp insurance, getting > approvals etc. > > I go away and shot doesn't work come back and dr says; I > don't know what to do for you. We can do an MRI > because your x-rays are fine. Am *I* the doctor? > Have I studied for years this stuff? Am *I* the only > one who has unrelenting pain because of work? She > tells me I should find another job. I said: > what? Am I supposed to leave a job where I have a > claim (I would lose my claim if I leave, there is a > protocol); limp away? To what? Another job that > aggravates my sacrum but can get no workers comp or > insurance or time off with pay? > How out of touch can these people be? > > I went back to my dr and he sends me (for some reason as > the last resort??) to a spine specialist. This guy > explains to me exactly what is wrong and why I need an > injection with an x-ray. I am so grateful to finally > understand what is wrong with me, why the brace I had before > did not work, etc. Finally relieved to have a > plan. So I call his reception to give information for > insurance approval and asked for pain medication because the > night before I was dying in pain. And I am alone here, > no one to massage my legs and butt area where it hurts so > bad. Ibuprofen doesn't work. I make the mistake > of saying alcohol helps it. > > So I am taking a nap and the phone goes off and I answer > because of all these insurance and dr calls i have > out. The new dr says: I don't understand why you are > asking me for painkillers, like, why now? You have had > this injury since june of 09. You've seen me one time > and you are asking me now? (his concern of course is > that I am using him to get narcotics and then going t my reg > dr saying my script ran out and can i get more). > > Well he does not know me at all! And I was like a > deer in headlights. I asked myself: why now? And I > couldn't articulate that I felt like I was finally with the > right doctor who could help me get a hold on this really > painful condition. That I normally tolerate pain and > endure a lot of pain (probably sounds familiar to a lot of > people here). How could I tell him that I am having a > hard time managing EVERYthing in my life because I am going > through intense complicated grief at the same time and this > pain is wearing me down? > > All while he is having this weird accusing tone? When > he was so nice in the office. He says: don't take > ibuprofen it could cause bleeding in the stomach. And > alcohol is bad too. I will call your dr and ask > him. He calls back later and leaves a message saying: > your doctor said no. > You should talk to him. I call my dr's nurse and she > says: he says you should talk to your actual primary > dr. (Who is usually not easy to get into see because > he started another practice doing laser). WTF!! > Talk about triggering issues of pain not being taken care > of! > > My pain, as a child, was never never addressed. I had > some accidents and was never held and shushhed. My > father (the non emotional one) always took me to the dr or > hospital for stitches. Our dentist did not use > novacaine on us. I have a huge avoidance to dental > work now. Even though I need it. Even if just a > cleaning. > And now, here I am suffering and they are acting like I am > a druggie. My sister died from that! > > My reaction is to go into victim, sad mode. Poor > me. But I have people encouraging me to get mad and > demand help (these are guys). But I will say something > when I get my shot; I have this fear that he won't help me > now. It has added to my stress in life in a way I did > not need at all. > > Sorry this is long; i probably am repeating myself. > But I just can't believe it! (Although when I went to > the gynecologist and told her that I feel during PMS i am > almost suicidal, which is not normal; normally I am just > bitchy, she looked at me blankly. She said: I can put > you on the pill but only for three years (til 50); and I > don't do well with the pill at all, it makes me > depressed. She mentioned antidepressants (drs must be > glad to be able to go to that and send you away) and pretty > much left the room) > > I really can understand now what my sister went through > with her doctor situation; the judgments they had, the > unwillingness to understand her life and how to really help > her. Ironically, I have barely done drugs in my > life. I drink now at night, because it is the only > thing that helps my sadness and pain, the ONLY thing. > I have one, maybe two drinks. That is it. I live > alone, have incredible grief, have a child who needs help in > school but is being > refused (illegally in my opinion) and I have bad pain in > the area of my body that keeps me from doing what usually > helps me which is hiking and dancing. (Dr told me the > only thing I could do is tread water...pay ten dollars a > shot to go in a pool somewhere...where I don't know to tread > water) >  > I want to get into Public Health because I want to help > people in a way that actually helps. But maybe I > should educate doctors ...I wonder if that is an aspect of > public health that I could get hired for.... > Now there is an idea! > If you read this long, thank you > ~patricia >  Re: gaslighting > > >  Hi , > >        What a > shame you're having joint pain.I don't have that,but have > had some health problems at times and I know how they can > just wear you down.Wow,that really sucks! Did you have > problems getting a good painkiller from your doctor that > would work for you? I remember the last time I had a really > bad sore throat (not as bothersome in the long term as joint > pain,but...) and my doctor refused to give me codeine.It's > like they're so paranoid people are going to abuse > painkillers,sometimes ridiculously so.I'm telling her it > really really hurt and she's telling me " I only prescribe > codeine in total emergencies and even then,if I can avoid > it,I don't... " But it *was* an emergency!!! > >        Have you > tried bio-identical progesterone cream? I know someone who > had joint pain related to the beginnings of real menopause > and using that helped her.Although it doesn't sound like > that's what is causing yours? Just a thought,anyway. > >        My ex > wife...No,I don't think she's *really* happy.I don't want to > write too many possibly identifying details since after all > I'm speaking of her without her consent,but she did go on to > have a very high profile job (on an international > level)--then after a couple of years she resigned.That is > what she'd do: land these prestige positions and then if > there was even a hint that she *might* be called onto the > carpet for something (I'm talking relatively minor > stuff--nobody is perfect),instead of staying and > fighting,she'd bow out " gracefully " .Go on to the next > job,then to the next one. > >       She can't bear > the ignominy of (even passing defeat),so she cuts and > runs.As far as I know,that hasn't changed.If she called me > and said: I have this really wonderful relationship and I'm > so happy with it/and/I found the perfect job and I'm really > sticking with it and I really trust in myself now to do it > well...I would simply be glad for her.I can't really say > that,to be honest,about most of my other exes.I'd still feel > that pang of ego woundedness,like,what do you mean,you're > really happy (HAPPIER!) without me,but we really lived > something together the two of us.We really tried to make it > work.I didn't doubt her love for me and she knew I truly > loved her.It's still there,just not as it was when we were > together.It's like the possessiveness of coupledom is gone > but the good will remains. > >      And I think both of us > feel pain (for the other) that we weren't able to be totally > what we needed at the time or enough at the time to really > be that help that would rectify the past or heal us.Reading > your posts (since much of what you say is like her > issues),I've had a gradual epiphany about what went wrong.I > see that I judged her--or misjudged her--harshly sometimes > because of my own issues.I feel like I understand her > better,ten years too late.Which doesn't mean that I want to > get back with her.I don't.It's not the same anymore as it > was.But understanding better where she was coming from > brings a fuller feeling of closure.Or,it seems to me right > now,a more mature assessment of the relationship with alot > less self pity clouding the memory of it . > >       What you said > about not being able to act out by being bad or doing > drugs,ha,that was like my ex wife too.She was too > conditioned to be responsible to just " let go " like > that.Like doing stuff like that was too alien to how she was > *supposed* to be.She drank sometimes when she was under alot > of stress,but not like an alcoholic (although when she > did,she worried she'd become one).She had a hard time in > general relaxing,so her drinking was always only at home and > she had to have a " reason " for it: like I need some Cognac > so I can sleep tonight--and yet--I feel really " bad " for > even having it but I need it but...One time I jokingly said > that we should just get really blasted together and see what > we got up to,just for fun...and she was horrified. > >        You shouldn't > have been expected to take care of your mother when you were > in grade school!! Or expected to take care of her at all,of > course.My ex wife's Waif nada had " spells " sometimes lasting > weeks when she would take to her bed.And she was expected to > nurse her.She said the same thing you did,about being scared > of her pain yet loving her--and frightened by how strange > she was acting.She had no one to go to say:*I* feel > scared...it was all:what can you do for your poor > mother...your poor mother...who is the one who needs > help... > >       And so it was > extremely difficult for my ex wife to ever say: I have a > need...I need help...my need is legitimate and I expect it > to be addressed.She hoped that others would guess what she > needed since saying it out loud would lead to a > rejection,she thought. > >       But if I told > her: If you just tell me what you need and if I can provide > it,I will do so immediately or ASAP and I will be delighted > to...then she'd go back to the: It's not really that > important,I'll adjust...I shouldn't have brought it > up,forget about it... > >      She definitely felt like > she was not " allowed " to express her needs or her pain,even > when I *thought* I was giving her permission to.Like if I > thought she was complaining,I'd get tired of her.She seemed > to think that her being sad was some kind of mortal sin. > >      It's interesting what > you said about your sister being a mirror to > you.Incidentally,my ex wife was close to her little sister > from their teenage years but never close to her older > sister.She used to say that *I* was like a mirror to her. > >       I think it's good > that your roles are disappearing.That,now,you can have more > freedom to discover what *your* role is,for you.To no longer > have to fix your family,but to tend to yourself.You deserve > that--it's not selfish.Not at all. > >        > >       > >  >  > >  > Hi , >  > This is very interesting what you wrote about > your place in the family and your *role* and what it seems > that nadas *need*. I mean the three-child thing can > fill that pretty readily but the less than three not so > good. >  > >  > I'm sorry that you felt *less-than* because of > what your mother was acting out. I was also the little > adult. And also criticized for being that way at > different times. I don't even know really how this has > shaped me; what I mean is I don't know who I am without this > persona. I think that is why I feel so sad without my > sister (I mean other obvious reasons) because she gave me a > sort of mirror to myself. She knew me. But she > also would be one of those that would say: you are too > serious. >  > So yeah, I was depended on heavily but in that > weird way, not respected. And so I became this adult person > who accepts not being respected and doesn't even know when > it is happening. >  > >  > You are so very articulate in describing your > ex-wife's feelings of lost-ness and alienation. In a > way I can relate; being *lost* not having a sense of not > understanding my pain in this part of my life and that is > scary; I cannot act out by being bad or doing drugs etc. >  > That poor poor woman; how could someone treat a > baby that way; their own child? (My parents were not > like that). This world is crazy. >  > In a lot of ways her position sounds like > mine. My brother was " the artist " (golden one) and my > sister was the baby; I had to take care of my mom with all > her crisises. One time when I was in elementary > school, my mother cracked her pelvis falling on the > steps. I was somehow the one to stay home from school > to watch after her! I remember how scared I was > because my mom was in so much pain. There is this > weird thing because you love your mom, but you are scared of > this *person* who is in pain and acting strange, like a > wounded animal. >  > >  > So yeah...this weird attachment. And I > think you are onto something...not having a *role* at > school, not having boundaries and everyone else just > crowding in. You are right; the feeling I get about > not getting off the bus is one of *protest*. >  > I am also afraid of having people spot my flaws > and I am very defensive. When I would go to see Khasha > (when he lived five minutes down the road, I would spend two > hours getting ready, even though it was fun, that says > something). >  > >  > I can relate too, to what you say about your > ex, saying things like: I have no reason to be down, I'm > just whining. I just wrote to Khasha about this > chronic sacral-iliac pain that I am just being a baby > (because I am so sad about it and complaining, like I am not > allowed). >  > >  > That is so sad about her identifying with > Casper. Sometimes I feel like a ghost anymore. I > mean, my role(s) are disappearing; I am not longer looking > after and trying to help my sister and her kids, my mom has > my niece there, my son is a teenager (I know he needs me > but....in three years he is technically an adult). I > go my way every day with no one to see me or account > to. >  > >  > Do you know if your ex is happy or what she is > doing? I understand what you are saying; you are very > compassionate. It's funny, I feel that way towards > Khasha. I actually really love him, not the sort of > superficial love of *what can he do for me* but I just love > him. I don't want him to be with anyone else but I > don't want him unhappy either. >  > Ah well. I have another story to tell > about my request for painkillers from the new doctor I saw > for my SI joint pain. >  > ~patricia >  > ps..thank you for articulating this so clearly > it helps me a lot because even though I am very analytical > and thoughtful about things I don't understand certain parts > of myself. >  >   >  > >  > >  > >  > >  > >   ------------------------------------ >  > >  >   Problems? Ask our friendly > List Manager for help at @... SEND HER ANY POSTS > THAT CONCERN YOU; DO NOT Respond ON THE GROUP. >  > >  >   To order the KO bible " Stop > Walking on Eggshells, " call 888-35-SHELL () for > your copy. We also refer to " Understanding the Borderline > Mother " (Lawson) and " Surviving the Borderline Parent, " > (Roth) which you can find at any bookstore. Welcome to the > WTO community! >  > >  >   From Randi Kreger, Owner > BPDCentral, WTO Online Community and author SWOE and the > SWOE Workbook. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 25, 2010 Report Share Posted April 25, 2010 >>I want to get into Public Health because I want to help people in a way that actually helps.<< ...Public Health rules...that was my college major, Public Health Education and Health Promotion, with a concentration in Addiction Studies. (Actually, I double minored in Substance Abuse Prevention, Intervention, and Treatment as well as in Human Sexuality...literally went to college to study sex and drugs! All I needed was a music minor, lol) Although, the further I got into my program, the more I was drawn to the epidemiolgy side of it. But still...so many different ways to go with it. I think everyone I went to school with who is working in the field is doing something different! Ninera > > Subject: Re: Re: gaslighting > To: WTOAdultChildren1 > Date: Saturday, April 24, 2010, 2:25 PM > Hi , > Thank you for your compassion about my pain/injury. I > had a fall at work on my left butt and then I work in this > sort of left facing way, bending and lifting. It has > loosened my S-I joint which is not supposed to move. > First I went to my doctor, he sent me to the chiropractor > and I went there for weeks, then to a specialist (first back > to the doctor). That specialist prescribed P/T for > twelve visits. I had a trip planned in between that, > and when I got back I went to four visits and then they > said: oh that is all you are covered for. Went back to > specialist she gives me a shot (no x-ray) and says come > back. But she also says: well what do you want me to > do? She won't give me a no-working note. > Why? And why ask me what do I want her to do? > Meanwhile dealing with workers comp insurance, getting > approvals etc. > > I go away and shot doesn't work come back and dr says; I > don't know what to do for you. We can do an MRI > because your x-rays are fine. Am *I* the doctor? > Have I studied for years this stuff? Am *I* the only > one who has unrelenting pain because of work? She > tells me I should find another job. I said: > what? Am I supposed to leave a job where I have a > claim (I would lose my claim if I leave, there is a > protocol); limp away? To what? Another job that > aggravates my sacrum but can get no workers comp or > insurance or time off with pay? > How out of touch can these people be? > > I went back to my dr and he sends me (for some reason as > the last resort??) to a spine specialist. This guy > explains to me exactly what is wrong and why I need an > injection with an x-ray. I am so grateful to finally > understand what is wrong with me, why the brace I had before > did not work, etc. Finally relieved to have a > plan. So I call his reception to give information for > insurance approval and asked for pain medication because the > night before I was dying in pain. And I am alone here, > no one to massage my legs and butt area where it hurts so > bad. Ibuprofen doesn't work. I make the mistake > of saying alcohol helps it. > > So I am taking a nap and the phone goes off and I answer > because of all these insurance and dr calls i have > out. The new dr says: I don't understand why you are > asking me for painkillers, like, why now? You have had > this injury since june of 09. You've seen me one time > and you are asking me now? (his concern of course is > that I am using him to get narcotics and then going t my reg > dr saying my script ran out and can i get more). > > Well he does not know me at all! And I was like a > deer in headlights. I asked myself: why now? And I > couldn't articulate that I felt like I was finally with the > right doctor who could help me get a hold on this really > painful condition. That I normally tolerate pain and > endure a lot of pain (probably sounds familiar to a lot of > people here). How could I tell him that I am having a > hard time managing EVERYthing in my life because I am going > through intense complicated grief at the same time and this > pain is wearing me down? > > All while he is having this weird accusing tone? When > he was so nice in the office. He says: don't take > ibuprofen it could cause bleeding in the stomach. And > alcohol is bad too. I will call your dr and ask > him. He calls back later and leaves a message saying: > your doctor said no. > You should talk to him. I call my dr's nurse and she > says: he says you should talk to your actual primary > dr. (Who is usually not easy to get into see because > he started another practice doing laser). WTF!! > Talk about triggering issues of pain not being taken care > of! > > My pain, as a child, was never never addressed. I had > some accidents and was never held and shushhed. My > father (the non emotional one) always took me to the dr or > hospital for stitches. Our dentist did not use > novacaine on us. I have a huge avoidance to dental > work now. Even though I need it. Even if just a > cleaning. > And now, here I am suffering and they are acting like I am > a druggie. My sister died from that! > > My reaction is to go into victim, sad mode. Poor > me. But I have people encouraging me to get mad and > demand help (these are guys). But I will say something > when I get my shot; I have this fear that he won't help me > now. It has added to my stress in life in a way I did > not need at all. > > Sorry this is long; i probably am repeating myself. > But I just can't believe it! (Although when I went to > the gynecologist and told her that I feel during PMS i am > almost suicidal, which is not normal; normally I am just > bitchy, she looked at me blankly. She said: I can put > you on the pill but only for three years (til 50); and I > don't do well with the pill at all, it makes me > depressed. She mentioned antidepressants (drs must be > glad to be able to go to that and send you away) and pretty > much left the room) > > I really can understand now what my sister went through > with her doctor situation; the judgments they had, the > unwillingness to understand her life and how to really help > her. Ironically, I have barely done drugs in my > life. I drink now at night, because it is the only > thing that helps my sadness and pain, the ONLY thing. > I have one, maybe two drinks. That is it. I live > alone, have incredible grief, have a child who needs help in > school but is being > refused (illegally in my opinion) and I have bad pain in > the area of my body that keeps me from doing what usually > helps me which is hiking and dancing. (Dr told me the > only thing I could do is tread water...pay ten dollars a > shot to go in a pool somewhere...where I don't know to tread > water) >  > I want to get into Public Health because I want to help > people in a way that actually helps. But maybe I > should educate doctors ...I wonder if that is an aspect of > public health that I could get hired for.... > Now there is an idea! > If you read this long, thank you > ~patricia >  Re: gaslighting > > >  Hi , > >        What a > shame you're having joint pain.I don't have that,but have > had some health problems at times and I know how they can > just wear you down.Wow,that really sucks! Did you have > problems getting a good painkiller from your doctor that > would work for you? I remember the last time I had a really > bad sore throat (not as bothersome in the long term as joint > pain,but...) and my doctor refused to give me codeine.It's > like they're so paranoid people are going to abuse > painkillers,sometimes ridiculously so.I'm telling her it > really really hurt and she's telling me " I only prescribe > codeine in total emergencies and even then,if I can avoid > it,I don't... " But it *was* an emergency!!! > >        Have you > tried bio-identical progesterone cream? I know someone who > had joint pain related to the beginnings of real menopause > and using that helped her.Although it doesn't sound like > that's what is causing yours? Just a thought,anyway. > >        My ex > wife...No,I don't think she's *really* happy.I don't want to > write too many possibly identifying details since after all > I'm speaking of her without her consent,but she did go on to > have a very high profile job (on an international > level)--then after a couple of years she resigned.That is > what she'd do: land these prestige positions and then if > there was even a hint that she *might* be called onto the > carpet for something (I'm talking relatively minor > stuff--nobody is perfect),instead of staying and > fighting,she'd bow out " gracefully " .Go on to the next > job,then to the next one. > >       She can't bear > the ignominy of (even passing defeat),so she cuts and > runs.As far as I know,that hasn't changed.If she called me > and said: I have this really wonderful relationship and I'm > so happy with it/and/I found the perfect job and I'm really > sticking with it and I really trust in myself now to do it > well...I would simply be glad for her.I can't really say > that,to be honest,about most of my other exes.I'd still feel > that pang of ego woundedness,like,what do you mean,you're > really happy (HAPPIER!) without me,but we really lived > something together the two of us.We really tried to make it > work.I didn't doubt her love for me and she knew I truly > loved her.It's still there,just not as it was when we were > together.It's like the possessiveness of coupledom is gone > but the good will remains. > >      And I think both of us > feel pain (for the other) that we weren't able to be totally > what we needed at the time or enough at the time to really > be that help that would rectify the past or heal us.Reading > your posts (since much of what you say is like her > issues),I've had a gradual epiphany about what went wrong.I > see that I judged her--or misjudged her--harshly sometimes > because of my own issues.I feel like I understand her > better,ten years too late.Which doesn't mean that I want to > get back with her.I don't.It's not the same anymore as it > was.But understanding better where she was coming from > brings a fuller feeling of closure.Or,it seems to me right > now,a more mature assessment of the relationship with alot > less self pity clouding the memory of it . > >       What you said > about not being able to act out by being bad or doing > drugs,ha,that was like my ex wife too.She was too > conditioned to be responsible to just " let go " like > that.Like doing stuff like that was too alien to how she was > *supposed* to be.She drank sometimes when she was under alot > of stress,but not like an alcoholic (although when she > did,she worried she'd become one).She had a hard time in > general relaxing,so her drinking was always only at home and > she had to have a " reason " for it: like I need some Cognac > so I can sleep tonight--and yet--I feel really " bad " for > even having it but I need it but...One time I jokingly said > that we should just get really blasted together and see what > we got up to,just for fun...and she was horrified. > >        You shouldn't > have been expected to take care of your mother when you were > in grade school!! Or expected to take care of her at all,of > course.My ex wife's Waif nada had " spells " sometimes lasting > weeks when she would take to her bed.And she was expected to > nurse her.She said the same thing you did,about being scared > of her pain yet loving her--and frightened by how strange > she was acting.She had no one to go to say:*I* feel > scared...it was all:what can you do for your poor > mother...your poor mother...who is the one who needs > help... > >       And so it was > extremely difficult for my ex wife to ever say: I have a > need...I need help...my need is legitimate and I expect it > to be addressed.She hoped that others would guess what she > needed since saying it out loud would lead to a > rejection,she thought. > >       But if I told > her: If you just tell me what you need and if I can provide > it,I will do so immediately or ASAP and I will be delighted > to...then she'd go back to the: It's not really that > important,I'll adjust...I shouldn't have brought it > up,forget about it... > >      She definitely felt like > she was not " allowed " to express her needs or her pain,even > when I *thought* I was giving her permission to.Like if I > thought she was complaining,I'd get tired of her.She seemed > to think that her being sad was some kind of mortal sin. > >      It's interesting what > you said about your sister being a mirror to > you.Incidentally,my ex wife was close to her little sister > from their teenage years but never close to her older > sister.She used to say that *I* was like a mirror to her. > >       I think it's good > that your roles are disappearing.That,now,you can have more > freedom to discover what *your* role is,for you.To no longer > have to fix your family,but to tend to yourself.You deserve > that--it's not selfish.Not at all. > >        > >       > >  >  > >  > Hi , >  > This is very interesting what you wrote about > your place in the family and your *role* and what it seems > that nadas *need*. I mean the three-child thing can > fill that pretty readily but the less than three not so > good. >  > >  > I'm sorry that you felt *less-than* because of > what your mother was acting out. I was also the little > adult. And also criticized for being that way at > different times. I don't even know really how this has > shaped me; what I mean is I don't know who I am without this > persona. I think that is why I feel so sad without my > sister (I mean other obvious reasons) because she gave me a > sort of mirror to myself. She knew me. But she > also would be one of those that would say: you are too > serious. >  > So yeah, I was depended on heavily but in that > weird way, not respected. And so I became this adult person > who accepts not being respected and doesn't even know when > it is happening. >  > >  > You are so very articulate in describing your > ex-wife's feelings of lost-ness and alienation. In a > way I can relate; being *lost* not having a sense of not > understanding my pain in this part of my life and that is > scary; I cannot act out by being bad or doing drugs etc. >  > That poor poor woman; how could someone treat a > baby that way; their own child? (My parents were not > like that). This world is crazy. >  > In a lot of ways her position sounds like > mine. My brother was " the artist " (golden one) and my > sister was the baby; I had to take care of my mom with all > her crisises. One time when I was in elementary > school, my mother cracked her pelvis falling on the > steps. I was somehow the one to stay home from school > to watch after her! I remember how scared I was > because my mom was in so much pain. There is this > weird thing because you love your mom, but you are scared of > this *person* who is in pain and acting strange, like a > wounded animal. >  > >  > So yeah...this weird attachment. And I > think you are onto something...not having a *role* at > school, not having boundaries and everyone else just > crowding in. You are right; the feeling I get about > not getting off the bus is one of *protest*. >  > I am also afraid of having people spot my flaws > and I am very defensive. When I would go to see Khasha > (when he lived five minutes down the road, I would spend two > hours getting ready, even though it was fun, that says > something). >  > >  > I can relate too, to what you say about your > ex, saying things like: I have no reason to be down, I'm > just whining. I just wrote to Khasha about this > chronic sacral-iliac pain that I am just being a baby > (because I am so sad about it and complaining, like I am not > allowed). >  > >  > That is so sad about her identifying with > Casper. Sometimes I feel like a ghost anymore. I > mean, my role(s) are disappearing; I am not longer looking > after and trying to help my sister and her kids, my mom has > my niece there, my son is a teenager (I know he needs me > but....in three years he is technically an adult). I > go my way every day with no one to see me or account > to. >  > >  > Do you know if your ex is happy or what she is > doing? I understand what you are saying; you are very > compassionate. It's funny, I feel that way towards > Khasha. I actually really love him, not the sort of > superficial love of *what can he do for me* but I just love > him. I don't want him to be with anyone else but I > don't want him unhappy either. >  > Ah well. I have another story to tell > about my request for painkillers from the new doctor I saw > for my SI joint pain. >  > ~patricia >  > ps..thank you for articulating this so clearly > it helps me a lot because even though I am very analytical > and thoughtful about things I don't understand certain parts > of myself. >  >   >  > >  > >  > >  > >  > >   ------------------------------------ >  > >  >   Problems? Ask our friendly > List Manager for help at @... SEND HER ANY POSTS > THAT CONCERN YOU; DO NOT Respond ON THE GROUP. >  > >  >   To order the KO bible " Stop > Walking on Eggshells, " call 888-35-SHELL () for > your copy. We also refer to " Understanding the Borderline > Mother " (Lawson) and " Surviving the Borderline Parent, " > (Roth) which you can find at any bookstore. Welcome to the > WTO community! >  > >  >   From Randi Kreger, Owner > BPDCentral, WTO Online Community and author SWOE and the > SWOE Workbook. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 28, 2010 Report Share Posted April 28, 2010 This sounds so familiar. I too was " all bad " and singled out for beatings. Then it would flip, and he would be loving again... It was a total mind f**k for me. A couple years ago, he wanted me to go to therapy with him. When I brought up how he once kicked me in the stomach, at first he denied it. I'm surprised he was eventually able to admit it. However, all the other beatings never happened in his mind. One of my primary solaces, is that my mother can validate that my father does in fact " gaslight " . However, she doesn't validate all the beatings I received. I think she was unaware of the beatings, because I didn't cry. My dad would hit me more if I cried, and would keep hitting me until I stopped crying. I'm 28 now, and this happened over 15 years ago. I barely remember it. I too sometimes wonder if it was all in my imagination. > > > > oh, this is my nada too !! she claims she never raised a hand against us, > > never hit/beat/spanked/slapped us ever !! she claims later if she did, > > then we had it coming...then she goes back to we were never hit...she used > > to use my fathers belt, a wooden mixing spoon from the kitchen..she used her > > metal hair brush on me, and broke it, then threatened to kill me because *I* > > broke it...she claims none of this happened, and I'm just being mean and > > making things up, then she claims she was just defending herself against us > > !!!???...hm...why is it my siblings remember these things as well as I do ?? > > > > Jackie > > > > > > > > I love this topic because it makes me feel like I am not alone in the > > world... > > My gaslighting is any abuse, whether it be verbal or physical. For some > > reason, my nada does not recall ANY of these instances. She would literally > > chase me because I would run away from her as a child, sometimes with > > objects in her hand like a knife or a belt. She never did anything with it, > > it was just a means of mental torture. Of course, nada and fada do not > > remember any of it....not even making the hole in the wall because I closed > > the bedroom door on her to try to get away (she kicked the door open and the > > door knob made a hole in the wall). > > > > AJ > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 28, 2010 Report Share Posted April 28, 2010 , Annie, Palak~ Your stories are so frightening; honestly made me feel kind of sad to think of your little selves with your siblings being abused in these ways. Abuse from parents causes such a certain kind of shame, it's hard to articulate, but it's like saying: you do not deserve to be cared for, protected, and loved completely. Having raised a child, I cannot imagine doing those things to him; pretending too, that they didn't happen. Before I had him, I was afraid I was not going to be able to love him (why would I think that? Could it be the way I had curled within myself as a child and did not imagine love was possible? And I was not treated half as badly as you describe) I do not understand why the non BPD parent stands by and watches this; my theory is that they are captured by the dynamics from their own background. (for example, my father has severe mental illnesses in his family; his two brothers both are/were mentally ill, and his mother, who died when he was 13, was described something like a crazy bitch). It's possible they get triggered and shut down ...I don't know. But it certainly is terrible and sad and scares me sometimes when I think how many people are like this. But then I see those who are sane, and kind, and compassionate, coming from these families. That is hopeful. ~patricia Re: gaslighting OMG!!! This is my fada!!! he used to hit me starting at age 2. i have scary memories of this. but now he acts like that never happened. that he never hit us. he hit me much more than my brother. i was all-bad growing up so i was singled out for all the beatings. now, when he sees me put my daughter in time out for something she has done, he claims that it is abusive and that he never did anything as bad as time out to us. can you believe it??!! he used to call me horrible names and hit for stupid reasons or no reason at all. the tyraids used to last days. and then magically, he would be all loving again for a day or two. i was just supposed to turn on and off according to his mood. my mom never stepped in when he beat me, but would cry and rescue my brother. of course, she doesn't remember any of this either. it makes me feel like the crazy one! i don't get why my mom doesn't remember...she's not BP, I don't think. this is all so confusing for me. Palak > > oh, this is my nada too !! she claims she never raised a hand against us, > never hit/beat/spanked/slapped us ever !! she claims later if she did, > then we had it coming...then she goes back to we were never hit...she used > to use my fathers belt, a wooden mixing spoon from the kitchen..she used her > metal hair brush on me, and broke it, then threatened to kill me because *I* > broke it...she claims none of this happened, and I'm just being mean and > making things up, then she claims she was just defending herself against us > !!!???...hm...why is it my siblings remember these things as well as I do ?? > > Jackie > > > > I love this topic because it makes me feel like I am not alone in the > world... > My gaslighting is any abuse, whether it be verbal or physical. For some > reason, my nada does not recall ANY of these instances. She would literally > chase me because I would run away from her as a child, sometimes with > objects in her hand like a knife or a belt. She never did anything with it, > it was just a means of mental torture. Of course, nada and fada do not > remember any of it....not even making the hole in the wall because I closed > the bedroom door on her to try to get away (she kicked the door open and the > door knob made a hole in the wall). > > AJ > ------------------------------------ Problems? Ask our friendly List Manager for help at @.... SEND HER ANY POSTS THAT CONCERN YOU; DO NOT Respond ON THE GROUP. To order the KO bible " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " call 888-35-SHELL () for your copy. We also refer to " Understanding the Borderline Mother " (Lawson) and " Surviving the Borderline Parent, " (Roth) which you can find at any bookstore. Welcome to the WTO community! From Randi Kreger, Owner BPDCentral, WTO Online Community and author SWOE and the SWOE Workbook. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 28, 2010 Report Share Posted April 28, 2010 Hi , Your email makes me think about how controlled our health lives are by pharmaceutical companies. Way back when, we didn't really realize it, but it's too bad it wasn't stopped then. I remember a doctor making house calls and him being this really earnest type of guy. But after him it was different. My gyno did do a blood test and she wrote: No sign of menopause! I looked up the numbers and of course they are *normal* for where I am, in pre-menopause. She thought that since I was getting regular periods that nothing was wrong. When I was searching about for bioidentical hormonal treatment, I found that it is really expensive. That because it is not considered " standard of care " insurance companies won't pay for all that. My regular dr. referred me to an endocrinologist which I believe he said would treat with bioidentical hormones; my appointment is not til june though! But yeah..antidepressants are the go-to thing for these doctors; but really, one has to know about brain chemistry to understand how they work. And each person has a different thing going on and how can you just go: Oh, you are crying, get an antidepressant! By the way, when I had my son, I had that post partum *blues*. Except it was not *blues* it felt like a bad drug trip; and I was weeping and desperate. When I called, the nurse seemed sort of blank, like: oh this is unusual. I wish I had a doula or midwife. Your experience sounds terrible and it shows that there is not a good understanding around women and hormones. My understanding is that perimenopause is when all the crazy symptoms happen; but it sounds like you went through some dramatic shift and then evened out. And I think the word you use *despondent* is a good one to describe the feelings. I feel as though my resilience and joy of life is sapped away. I know part of it is life events, but also hormonal stuff. I can tell that I am not who I used to be. I am looking for a different gynecologist this year. I am not happy with my past few years with the one I have. She is good for surgery etc. But this emotional connection and alternative stuff, forget it. I hear what you are saying about the spinal specialist guy. I think that what I will say to him when I go for my shots is that I think there was a misunderstanding about the pain medication, (because really, I'm sure I could get it somewhere if I wanted to, don't need a doctor). I am not going to " explain myself " but just like you said, assert my point in the context of my pain and my insurance constraints. And also, like you said, keep my cards close to my chest. This is the sort of strategic thinking that I would like to learn; it's hard for me to remember these things (for example, when I deal with my son's school issues) What you describe reminds me of the book by Sun Tzu The Art of War; which I do have a copy of and I should read it. And somehow internalize it, because it is merely about strategy and in this world we do need that. Thank you for your two cents I will re-read your email; I go for my shots next week. ~patricia Re: gaslighting Hi ...The reason I asked when you have the PMS symptoms in your cycle was because if they begin at bleeding,it's more directly related to a big drop in hormone levels and if they lessen at bleeding,it's more indicative of so-called " premenstrual dysphoric disorder " .A condition that is not well understood (since women's health issues aren't as researched as they should be--and birth control pills as a remedy keep getting peddled and peddled because they're a patented money maker for big pharma)--anyway,yes,most gynecologists would prescribe antidepressants for that,unfortunately.The ones who also recommend alternative treatments have to really be sought out. Did your gyno do a blood or a saliva test for your hormones and was she only doing a test to check if you were in perimenopause? Because the other hormone level test is generally done as a saliva test,I believe,and it isn't a one-off test: hormone levels are measured through a regular cycle (or a couple of cycles) to see what the pattern of hormonal fluctuation is and if anything is dipping or soaring and when. I had a blood test for perimenopause just three years ago when my weird period symptoms had only just begun but weren't as horrendous as they became later.What a joke.It came back negative for perimenopause--and guess what.Two years later I *was* in perimenopause.That whole experience with having near constant periods was a nightmare from hell.It wasn't just the physical symptoms,which were bad enough.But also the mental/emotional ones.I experienced alot of mental confusion and had just been promoted to a position where I had much more responsibility...ah,it's a long story...you know that feeling you have while you're having a nightmare? Well,that is how I felt,but I was awake. An older coworker had had the same thing and she had gone along with having a hysterectomy.That was not something I wanted to do,even a partial one,until I had exhausted all other options.Except there weren't any good ones or ones I wanted to do. I knew that I was fighting a losing battle trying to get the gynocologists I saw to do something else for me,since they had been trained a certain way and just weren't into considering or learning about alternative treatments.I mean,it was pointless to argue with them--their minds were closed or made up a certain way. By the time I finally found one who does offer alternative treatment,my system/body had balanced out.Something similar had happened to nada at 42,sudden perimenopause.Except she didn't have the wild ride into it that I had. It was a very lonely place to be in--to be in so much pain almost all the time,so emotionally confused,so exhausted and despondent.And to discover that the only " help " available was either butchering my insides or drugging my mind or artificially throwing my hormones even more out of whack.But I used that time to really explore my own psychology and although I wouldn't go through something like that again if given the choice,I learned from it.What else was there to do? About the bio-identical hormones: if you get them from a compounding pharmacy,they shouldn't run you more than 24 dollars or so for a month's supply.I'm not surprised to hear that some unscrupulous people have attempted to make a huge profit from women's health problems,though.The FDA itself was making noises about banning bio-identical hormones at the behest of big pharma--they are losing money as the dangers of synthetic HRT become more known; bio-identical HRT is safer (and much less expensive). Certainly hormones have something to do with your PMS symptoms.Naturopaths do prescribe bio-identicals,but I don't know if they'd accept your insurance.So you'd need to find a " regular " gynecologist who treats patients with them.It shouldn't be such a hassle...but it is... About the " spine guy " ...I'm saying this to you as a friend and I am also telling you the same thing I'd tell myself: only pick a battle you can really fight/don't rattle your sabre unless you fully know how to wield it... Asserting yourself is not the same as explaining yourself.You don't owe this guy an explanation.And unfortunately even if you *did* explain to him all about what you've been through,he probably wouldn't get it.Or he'd probably draw yet more erroneous conclusions about you.That's just the way it is.I suggested you assert your side of it in the context of your own pain management needs not to offer an explanation but as damage control for YOURSELF.You made a mistake mentioning alcohol usage to his reception.That's not said in judgment of you at all.All of us make mistakes we never intended to be mistakes,I do too.But it's done now--and now you need to switch that gear yourself because they aren't going to do it for you.So,they're lazy: they didn't bother to check into it to make sure they weren't making false assumptions.That is what you are dealing with,so now you know.You need,IMO,to disabuse them of their illusions about you. In my opinion,there are two important things to consider as the basis of how you will go about asserting your pain management needs: first,that they now " think " (wrongly,but they do now) that you want narcotics for some negative reason so you need to strategize that thinking out of their heads--and second,considering his side of it as part of strategizing for YOU only to get YOUR needs met,as a physician he is loathe to prescribe narcotics at all and seems to believe they are not indicated in your case (which he probably believes of the vast majority of his patients).As a physician,he must follow some general protocol of only prescribing them as a last resort,if ever.Now,that is his deal so in my opinion insisting that he explain himself and his reasons for not wanting to give them to you is going to make him defend his protocol.*IF* another physician who had treated you had either recommended or prescribed narcotics to you to specifically treat your condition,that would give you a leg to stand on as it were and ammunition to do battle with the spine guy.Because they heed the counsel of their peers--but you are not,in his mind,a peer.You are a patient,which is very different is his mind.Fair? No.But that's how it is. You said that he had been more helpful than the other ones you saw,so in that sense you need him to continue to help you.Coming possibly to loggerheads with him right out of the starting gate as far as getting those meds in concerned is probably not going to result in you receiving them.It might.But I think you're taking a gamble here with what is in fact an unknown quantity before you decide to come out swinging: his possible reaction.IF you decide to be combative by putting it on him to explain it,you'd better be ready to mean it and be willing to keep it up,otherwise he will knock you down.I'm not saying that to be discouraging.I am saying that as someone who knows how to fight--that is how fighting works.If your opponent sees you flag or suspects that he will,they will beat you.You are already in a one down position since he has what you need and *could* refuse to give it to you or choose to engage you in a fighting way right back--which would leave you with upping the ante as your only option to win,which in this case would mean insisting that he give you what you want.In order to insist in that way,you would have to come off as somewhat threatening to get him to submit to you.And that you would have to really mean (and be able to maintain)--and if you doubt your ability to do that at all,it will show. What I recommended is more of an initial sortie,like a recognizance mission before you map out the final battle plan.It's not a capitulation to him at all but more of a sussing him out first so *you* can ascertain what he might have to throw at you,like how serious would his resistance to you be.And it's best,for the sake of winning at this and getting what *you* want from him,that he not know that this is what you are doing.You are not " explaining " yourself to him hoping he'll " understand " and be " nice " to you: you are simply keeping your cards close to your chest.You are disabusing him of his false notions about you for YOUR sake,not for the sake of enlightening him about the fact that he jumps to insulting conclusions.Do you see what I mean? Your secret weapon here is in appearing to be amenable to his recommendations,but only to give you an in so that you can sell him on giving you what you need.There is no point in possibly alienating him before you even know how resistant he might be. That is what I would do.I often employ appearing harmless as a strategic tactic *before* going ahead with the " battle plan " so I know the lay of the land first. Best of luck with this,whatever you decide to do.I only wish you the best and only you know what is the right way to go for you ...These are just my two cents... > > Hi ~ > I cannot figure out why so much bad stuff seems to keep coming round in my life! I mean some of it is my own fault (when I don't have my boundaries or don't plan) but in other ways it's just things that happen. The main thing for me is that I live too isolated, because otherwise I think I could handle it all better. > > I thought that doctor who asked me: what do you want me to do? was ridiculous! She would not give me a note to be out of work and I have no idea why. I explained to her that they are cutting people's hours at my job and no one is going to switch jobs with me! That would mean to switch schedules etc, it just is not practical. Plus I cannot stand for a shift at this point either. I get so bitter some times; I feel the world is so different than it used to be, but maybe I am wrong. There is such a separation between those with something like a good paying job and those who work at the level I do. > > I did not get an MRI. I think if the shots do not work that would be something to do. > The thing with me is that I am not the type to lay around injured; I like to be active; I am ready to mentally move onto the next thing. But emotionally, no, I guess. And anything physical I do I pay for later. I am nervous because I know I cannot keep doing this job and I don't know what to do instead since I want to go back to school, not get locked into another low-end job. > > You are so right about being triggered by that other doctor with the drug thing. Me, who never has really done drugs except pot in my teen years. And of course you can't get into all that on the phone or even in person! Then I got scared that he would not treat me with the shots! > > I will tell you that I have learned, in the past few years, something important. And that is that we cannot assume anything about people's lives and what they are feeling and what they *should* be doing. When my sister was dying, I had people (who knew her, even a close friend of mine) say: she made her choices (to drink, do drugs etc). But they did not know the pain she struggled with and her weakness in life. This lesson is something that has sunk way into me. I get mad when other people tell me that they have the same situation as I do, and they are fine (like my son with ADD and he is late to school all the time and the email I get about it, I say: My son has ADD and is on stimulant medication and cannot sleep til late, so he has a hard time getting up. She says: My son has ADD too, and he can get to school on time.) > > Sorry to hear of your menstrual pain and I know how that whole trip goes with the gynecologists...even female ones. Yeah, it is either hormone pills or antidepressants, but try to get a painkiller! What is this! The thing with the suicidal feelings..started in the past two years, coinciding with my father's death, but most definitely in conjunction with PMS. Once I bleed I feel relief mentally (although these days...), but yes, despondency is a good word. I feel the joy of my life has been leaked away. I am convinced it is hormonal; I read Suzanne Sommers book on bio-identical hormones and I want to try them; the trick is trying to find an affordable treatment plan. I called someone in the back of her book in CA, and the whole process had to be about 15,000 dollars!! It made me mad that she offered this new idea of help for women but it is so expensive that most women cannot do it. > My regular gynecologist gave me the 'blank stare' when I mentioned it. She measured my hormones and said: They are normal. No sign of menopause. But they are normal for pre-menopause! Normal for making me feel like crap most of the time. > > I am not sure how I will deal with the spine guy. I am getting shots hopefully this Wednesday and supposedly it helps pretty quickly so I may not even have to address getting painkillers. However I will have to find a way to say something to him that I did not understand his reaction to my request. And put it on him. Rather than on me to explain myself. > But for this weekend...well what can I do? It is always like this on the weekend..pain happens, toothaches, etc. > I will check out Bromelain; and I have taken the glucosamine/chond. But I get out of the habit of pill taking. > > Thanks for your thoughts, and reading through my seemingly endless trials here. I feel like I have a black cloud over my head, I really do. I can't even stand to see people around me enjoying themselves because I feel so aimless and miserable. I can't even see the vision of my future, of things changing. I am not saying they won't or I won't figure it out but right now it is difficult. I guess I am resisting this grief over losing my sister because I know how long it took me to just feel somewhat normal after losing my father; and my sister was such a bigger loss to me. > > You are right, though, enough! I think I have to stop accepting shit from people for one thing. > And maybe figure out one tiny little enjoyable thing for myself otherwise. > Thanks, > ~patricia > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > Problems? Ask our friendly List Manager for help at @... SEND HER ANY POSTS THAT CONCERN YOU; DO NOT Respond ON THE GROUP. > > To order the KO bible " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " call 888-35-SHELL () for your copy. We also refer to " Understanding the Borderline Mother " (Lawson) and " Surviving the Borderline Parent, " (Roth) which you can find at any bookstore. Welcome to the WTO community! > > From Randi Kreger, Owner BPDCentral, WTO Online Community and author SWOE and the SWOE Workbook. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 28, 2010 Report Share Posted April 28, 2010 Connie, i'm not buying it either. Your nada's story that is. I seriously doubt she doesn't remember or have a clue, and if she truly doesn't.... then she's a bad nada anyway. Either way, she strikes out. Ugh, I hate nadas. > > > > > > I love this topic because it makes me feel like I am not alone in the world... > > > My gaslighting is any abuse, whether it be verbal or physical. For some reason, my nada does not recall ANY of these instances. She would literally chase me because I would run away from her as a child, sometimes with objects in her hand like a knife or a belt. She never did anything with it, it was just a means of mental torture. Of course, nada and fada do not remember any of it....not even making the hole in the wall because I closed the bedroom door on her to try to get away (she kicked the door open and the door knob made a hole in the wall). > > > > > > AJ > > > > > > ---> > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 28, 2010 Report Share Posted April 28, 2010 Loannie- reading this " Sometimes nada would just out of the blue slap my face, and did it often enough that I developed an unconscious flinch reflex if she made a sudden and unexpected move near me. If she actually saw me flinch, THAT would enrage nada. " Why the hell are you doing that?! Stop it! " So as a small child, I had to learn to control my own automatic and unconscious flinch reaction or risk triggering more physical abuse from my nada. Sister and I had to learn to take our abuse silently too; screaming in fear and crying would further enrage nada. " Brought back the same exact memory of me with my fada. the same flinch reaction and if i did it, he would get so mad. if i cried or screamed, it would just get worse. i had forgetten about the flinching until i read your description of it. i literally have supressed most of my memories of all this craziness until recently. i always felt and feel tense and stressed with my dad, but until now, i thought it was because i am the bad kid who doesn't know how to talk properly to my dad. i'm freaking 34 years old and he still controls me!! how sad is that? i'm trying to stop being scared of him and scared of his reactions. i have a great husband and a wonderful little girl and yet i cower in fear of my fada. ugh! Palak > > > > > > oh, this is my nada too !! she claims she never raised a hand against us, > > > never hit/beat/spanked/slapped us ever !! she claims later if she did, > > > then we had it coming...then she goes back to we were never hit...she used > > > to use my fathers belt, a wooden mixing spoon from the kitchen..she used her > > > metal hair brush on me, and broke it, then threatened to kill me because *I* > > > broke it...she claims none of this happened, and I'm just being mean and > > > making things up, then she claims she was just defending herself against us > > > !!!???...hm...why is it my siblings remember these things as well as I do ?? > > > > > > Jackie > > > > > > > > > > > > I love this topic because it makes me feel like I am not alone in the > > > world... > > > My gaslighting is any abuse, whether it be verbal or physical. For some > > > reason, my nada does not recall ANY of these instances. She would literally > > > chase me because I would run away from her as a child, sometimes with > > > objects in her hand like a knife or a belt. She never did anything with it, > > > it was just a means of mental torture. Of course, nada and fada do not > > > remember any of it....not even making the hole in the wall because I closed > > > the bedroom door on her to try to get away (she kicked the door open and the > > > door knob made a hole in the wall). > > > > > > AJ > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 28, 2010 Report Share Posted April 28, 2010 , I think you're about the non-BP parent just shutting down due to their own history. my mom grew up wiht an abusive father so she probably thought that my fada was better than her own and somehow justified it in her head. besides, she totally controlled by him. like i can't even ask my mom an opinion about anything in my life without her responding that i should talk to fada. she has no mind of her own. hate it! palak > > > > oh, this is my nada too !! she claims she never raised a hand against us, > > never hit/beat/spanked/slapped us ever !! she claims later if she did, > > then we had it coming...then she goes back to we were never hit...she used > > to use my fathers belt, a wooden mixing spoon from the kitchen..she used her > > metal hair brush on me, and broke it, then threatened to kill me because *I* > > broke it...she claims none of this happened, and I'm just being mean and > > making things up, then she claims she was just defending herself against us > > !!!???...hm...why is it my siblings remember these things as well as I do ?? > > > > Jackie > > > > > > > > I love this topic because it makes me feel like I am not alone in the > > world... > > My gaslighting is any abuse, whether it be verbal or physical. For some > > reason, my nada does not recall ANY of these instances. She would literally > > chase me because I would run away from her as a child, sometimes with > > objects in her hand like a knife or a belt. She never did anything with it, > > it was just a means of mental torture. Of course, nada and fada do not > > remember any of it....not even making the hole in the wall because I closed > > the bedroom door on her to try to get away (she kicked the door open and the > > door knob made a hole in the wall). > > > > AJ > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > Problems? Ask our friendly List Manager for help at @... SEND HER ANY POSTS THAT CONCERN YOU; DO NOT Respond ON THE GROUP. > > To order the KO bible " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " call 888-35-SHELL () for your copy. We also refer to " Understanding the Borderline Mother " (Lawson) and " Surviving the Borderline Parent, " (Roth) which you can find at any bookstore. Welcome to the WTO community! > > From Randi Kreger, Owner BPDCentral, WTO Online Community and author SWOE and the SWOE Workbook. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 28, 2010 Report Share Posted April 28, 2010 EMDR has helped me realize that of all the experiences I had with my nada, the one that is like Annie describes here was the worst. My nada would grab me by the arms, digging her nails into me, shaking me, and yelling. Her face was filled with rage and hate, all directed towards me. It was frightening, and so I tried to avoid looking at her, focusing the black spots between her teeth. This would not satisfy her and she would demand I LOOK AT HER, so I would and again, be confronted with the rage and hate in her dialated pupils, the disgust she felt towards me. Over time, I learned that if I focused on her eyebrows, she would think I was looking into her eyes, so that helped immensely. Of course, she had these shaped brows, with sort of a ball shape on the insides, and I grew to associate that shape with being cornered by her. I think being forced into eye contact when I was being attacked not only hurt my self esteem, but made me a sitting duck for bullies. When I would get bullied, I would automatically look away, which is a big sign of weakness. Of course, it also just really hurts to be forced to confront such a look of hate and disgust from your mother. It's very invasive. Deanna > > > > > > > > I love this topic because it makes me feel like I am not alone in the world... > > > > My gaslighting is any abuse, whether it be verbal or physical. For some reason, my nada does not recall ANY of these instances. She would literally chase me because I would run away from her as a child, sometimes with objects in her hand like a knife or a belt. She never did anything with it, it was just a means of mental torture. Of course, nada and fada do not remember any of it....not even making the hole in the wall because I closed the bedroom door on her to try to get away (she kicked the door open and the door knob made a hole in the wall). > > > > > > > > AJ > > > > > > > > ---> > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 29, 2010 Report Share Posted April 29, 2010 Connie - I agree with HFB - no matter how frustrated a parent gets with a child, they would remember WHY they chose a specific name for that child. I think she's messing with you. > > > > > > > > I love this topic because it makes me feel like I am not alone in the world... > > > > My gaslighting is any abuse, whether it be verbal or physical. For some reason, my nada does not recall ANY of these instances. She would literally chase me because I would run away from her as a child, sometimes with objects in her hand like a knife or a belt. She never did anything with it, it was just a means of mental torture. Of course, nada and fada do not remember any of it....not even making the hole in the wall because I closed the bedroom door on her to try to get away (she kicked the door open and the door knob made a hole in the wall). > > > > > > > > AJ > > > > > > > > ---> > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 29, 2010 Report Share Posted April 29, 2010 i agree, we all need each other here and all the help we can get from each other.. i hate to see you leave because of this, tho i can understand your frustration and anger.  we will miss you. Subject: Re: gaslighting To: WTOAdultChildren1 Date: Sunday, April 25, 2010, 10:11 PM  Ninera,just FYI,I forwarded Dolly's posts to the attention of the moderator on Saturday.She could have done the same with yours if she believed there was a serious problem she didn't think she could address and attempt to resolve directly with you,but instead chose to triangulate other group members.At the bottom of most of the posts on this board,there is a message with the list manager/moderator' s e-mail address. Please don't leave the group! You contribute so much here and we value you and your participation. I believe that you expressed your point of view respectfully. > > > From: sleddog <sleddog@... > > > Subject: Re: Re: gaslighting > > To: WTOAdultChildren1@ yahoogroups. com > > Date: Saturday, April 24, 2010, 3:59 PM > > Dolly, there should be NO rewounding > > on this board !!! NO ONE should be > > attacking any one else for any reason !! we are all > > here for one reason, to > > share our experiences and to heal . I am very > > sorry and saddened to hear > > you were attacked by someone. I have read your posts, > > and dont understand > > why anyone would have attacked you. > > > > Jackie > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _ > > I just share that because I almost dropped off this board > > because of an > > attack that came from another person on here... It's hard > > to remember that > > we're all a bit injured (in here especially). I just > > don't know if I'm > > strong enough to stay in this discussion board if it's all > > about rewounding > > vs. PROGRESS! I've made a LOT of progress in the time > > that I've been away > > from this discussion board. I just hope I can > > maintain the positive > > momentum in spite of the fleas jumping in here... A penny > > for your THOUGHTS? > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- ------ > > > > Problems? Ask our friendly List Manager for help at @... > > SEND HER ANY POSTS THAT CONCERN YOU; DO NOT Respond ON THE > > GROUP. > > > > To order the KO bible " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " call > > 888-35-SHELL () for your copy. We also refer to > > “Understanding the Borderline Motherâ€� (Lawson) and > > “Surviving the Borderline Parent,â€� (Roth) which you can > > find at any bookstore. Welcome to the WTO community! > > > > From Randi Kreger, Owner BPDCentral, WTO Online Community > > and author SWOE and the SWOE Workbook. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 29, 2010 Report Share Posted April 29, 2010 I am so sorry for your experiences; and also that feeling of: Did this really happen? I have not had beatings, but experienced rages and suicidal actions by my mom. Plus neglect. And I also thought for a long time, especially when I was your age: Did this really happen? Since then I've had a lot of therapy, not really anyone who *got* what the psychological dynamic was in my family. But I have also witnessed (in group work) the effects of these things on other women and men. That has helped me to affirm for myself what had happened. Also having a close relationship with my sister helped the most because *she* would affirm it; she was there too. I wish you healing (everyone here). ~patricia Re: gaslighting This sounds so familiar. I too was " all bad " and singled out for beatings. Then it would flip, and he would be loving again... It was a total mind f**k for me. A couple years ago, he wanted me to go to therapy with him. When I brought up how he once kicked me in the stomach, at first he denied it. I'm surprised he was eventually able to admit it. However, all the other beatings never happened in his mind. One of my primary solaces, is that my mother can validate that my father does in fact " gaslight " . However, she doesn't validate all the beatings I received. I think she was unaware of the beatings, because I didn't cry. My dad would hit me more if I cried, and would keep hitting me until I stopped crying. I'm 28 now, and this happened over 15 years ago. I barely remember it. I too sometimes wonder if it was all in my imagination. > > > > oh, this is my nada too !! she claims she never raised a hand against us, > > never hit/beat/spanked/slapped us ever !! she claims later if she did, > > then we had it coming...then she goes back to we were never hit...she used > > to use my fathers belt, a wooden mixing spoon from the kitchen..she used her > > metal hair brush on me, and broke it, then threatened to kill me because *I* > > broke it...she claims none of this happened, and I'm just being mean and > > making things up, then she claims she was just defending herself against us > > !!!???...hm...why is it my siblings remember these things as well as I do ?? > > > > Jackie > > > > > > > > I love this topic because it makes me feel like I am not alone in the > > world... > > My gaslighting is any abuse, whether it be verbal or physical. For some > > reason, my nada does not recall ANY of these instances. She would literally > > chase me because I would run away from her as a child, sometimes with > > objects in her hand like a knife or a belt. She never did anything with it, > > it was just a means of mental torture. Of course, nada and fada do not > > remember any of it....not even making the hole in the wall because I closed > > the bedroom door on her to try to get away (she kicked the door open and the > > door knob made a hole in the wall). > > > > AJ > > > ------------------------------------ Problems? Ask our friendly List Manager for help at @.... SEND HER ANY POSTS THAT CONCERN YOU; DO NOT Respond ON THE GROUP. To order the KO bible " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " call 888-35-SHELL () for your copy. We also refer to " Understanding the Borderline Mother " (Lawson) and " Surviving the Borderline Parent, " (Roth) which you can find at any bookstore. Welcome to the WTO community! From Randi Kreger, Owner BPDCentral, WTO Online Community and author SWOE and the SWOE Workbook. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 29, 2010 Report Share Posted April 29, 2010 , sounds like your nada was gaslighting you too. She's denying your beatings in the full sense of what they actually were. That's not fair, that's abusive. Your memories are correct, please don't doubt that. They're terrible, but correct. I felt sick reading about how severe they were. I hope you can find healing somehow; nobody deserves that. You're parents are criminals. My gosh, you're strong . Hugs from HF Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 1, 2010 Report Share Posted May 1, 2010 Hi ...I'm glad you weren't put off by my post It's funny you mention Sun Tzu and The Art of War--that was on my mind as I wrote that post,actually.I had to go up to Manhatten for a couple of days of endless meetings.I'm still in that zone,which I would like to just switch off but can't,quite.Even though at the same time I ask myself what is the point of my job really.Now,if we were plotting to take over the world to make it a great place for everybody that would be different... Some fun quotes from Sun Tzu: --In making tactical dispositions, the highest pitch you can attain is to conceal them. --Hence that general is skillful in attack whose opponent does not know what to defend; and he is skillful in defense whose opponent does not know what to attack. --The art of war teaches us to rely not on the likelihood of the enemy's not coming, but on our own readiness to receive him; not on the chance of his not attacking, but rather on the fact that we have made our position unassailable. Anyway...well that's good you have an appointment with an endocrinologist,even if it's not until June. There seems to be better,or growing,awareness about post partum mood disorders these days.It's outrageous to me that the nurse you spoke to thought what you were going through was unusual! It happens quite often,actually.Women in NJ are now required by law to be informed about post partum depression and given a special hotline number to call before they leave the hospital with their baby.There are support groups for that now,although anti depressants are still pushed.The NJ law is due to become the law of the land as part of the " Mother's Act " that is part of the national health care bill,although people are already protesting it on the grounds of privacy violations and such. I feel a bit different because of the shift in my hormones,like duller.But also calmer.For a while there I felt as if I'd lost my vital link to feeling inspired about anything pretty much,but over time it has balanced out.Hopefully over time your system will also balance out or you'll find something that helps.Having your joy of life sapped away is awful... I'm supposed to be washing a dress,etc and getting ready to go out to dinner with some people,a previous arrangement I wish I could get out of now but can't.I spent the morning running errands in the heat and heavy traffic...I just want to chill and relax...sorry this post is so disjointed...I'd better go get ready.Bleh. No sign of menopause! I looked up the numbers and of course they are *normal* for where I am, in pre-menopause. She thought that since I was getting regular periods that nothing was wrong. > When I was searching about for bioidentical hormonal treatment, I found that it is really expensive. That because it is not considered " standard of care " insurance companies won't pay for all that. My regular dr. referred me to an endocrinologist which I believe he said would treat with bioidentical hormones; my appointment is not til june though! > > But yeah..antidepressants are the go-to thing for these doctors; but really, one has to know about brain chemistry to understand how they work. And each person has a different thing going on and how can you just go: Oh, you are crying, get an antidepressant! > By the way, when I had my son, I had that post partum *blues*. Except it was not *blues* it felt like a bad drug trip; and I was weeping and desperate. When I called, the nurse seemed sort of blank, like: oh this is unusual. I wish I had a doula or midwife. > > Your experience sounds terrible and it shows that there is not a good understanding around women and hormones. My understanding is that perimenopause is when all the crazy symptoms happen; but it sounds like you went through some dramatic shift and then evened out. > And I think the word you use *despondent* is a good one to describe the feelings. I feel as though my resilience and joy of life is sapped away. I know part of it is life events, but also hormonal stuff. I can tell that I am not who I used to be. > > I am looking for a different gynecologist this year. I am not happy with my past few years with the one I have. She is good for surgery etc. But this emotional connection and alternative stuff, forget it. > > I hear what you are saying about the spinal specialist guy. I think that what I will say to him when I go for my shots is that I think there was a misunderstanding about the pain medication, (because really, I'm sure I could get it somewhere if I wanted to, don't need a doctor). I am not going to " explain myself " but just like you said, assert my point in the context of my pain and my insurance constraints. And also, like you said, keep my cards close to my chest. This is the sort of strategic thinking that I would like to learn; it's hard for > me to remember these things (for example, when I deal with my son's school issues) > What you describe reminds me of the book by Sun Tzu The Art of War; which I do have a copy of and I should read it. And somehow internalize it, because it is merely about strategy and in this world we do need that. > Thank you for your two cents I will re-read your email; I go for my shots next week. > ~patricia > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > Problems? Ask our friendly List Manager for help at @ SEND HER ANY POSTS THAT CONCERN YOU; DO NOT Respond ON THE GROUP. > > > > To order the KO bible " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " call 888-35-SHELL () for your copy. We also refer to " Understanding the Borderline Mother " (Lawson) and " Surviving the Borderline Parent, " (Roth) which you can find at any bookstore. Welcome to the WTO community! > > > > From Randi Kreger, Owner BPDCentral, WTO Online Community and author SWOE and the SWOE Workbook. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 2, 2010 Report Share Posted May 2, 2010 Jackie Please don t let yourself focus there. Unforgiveness and vengeance are a like a slow acid that eats away at your soul and being. If there is payback it is not our provence, or concern. But by holding on to the hate and anger, we place ourselves still under their control. We must forgive them, give up our right to exact payment, and thereby say , not for them you understand, but for us, all you did no longer has power over me. I won t permit you to do it anymore, but I won t live my life as a prisoner to it either. This is not, not not, for nada. It is for us to heal. Unforgiveness is a poisen. Let it out of you. Scream, sob, tear hell out of a pillow if you need to, but finally, let it go. It is part of your story, but it is nada s stuff to carry. You don t have to. Let it go. It is very freeing, and healing. May we all heal my friends. Doug > > so when is pay back ?? when will they ever be " punished " for what they did > to us ?? > > Jackie > > > > Yes, the nada's ability to totally rewrite history is amazing. How nice for > the nadas that they have no memories of all the hurt, fear, guilt, shame and > damage they inflicted on helpless little children who were totally and > abjectly dependent on them and wanted nothing more in the world than their > mother's approval and love. > > -Annie > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 2, 2010 Report Share Posted May 2, 2010 thanks Doug, I do know this, in my brain, but sometimes my heart forgets..especially like now, when mothers day and nada attacking me every time we have contact, and me going through some rough times right now, and I could USE a mother , but dont have one because she will attack me if I talk to her....sigh....some days it's harder than others.. Jackie Jackie Please don t let yourself focus there. Unforgiveness and vengeance are a like a slow acid that eats away at your soul and being. If there is payback it is not our provence, or concern. But by holding on to the hate and anger, we place ourselves still under their control. We must forgive them, give up our right to exact payment, and thereby say , not for them you understand, but for us, all you did no longer has power over me. I won t permit you to do it anymore, but I won t live my life as a prisoner to it either. This is not, not not, for nada. It is for us to heal. Unforgiveness is a poisen. Let it out of you. Scream, sob, tear hell out of a pillow if you need to, but finally, let it go. It is part of your story, but it is nada s stuff to carry. You don t have to. Let it go. It is very freeing, and healing. May we all heal my friends. Doug Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 2, 2010 Report Share Posted May 2, 2010 I know. It hurts. I m not looking forward to this, the first Mothers Day since my nada died. Pain is real. Part of your pain my be no more contact, since every one is a painful attack. Sometimes it is helpful to find a wise and compassionate person, who will build a relationship with you as sort of a Spiritual Mother. Not bio, you can t replace that, and not childhood mother, those days are gone, but a caring heart. Find someone you can talk to who won t attack you. You can t change nada. Only yourself. Hugs, Doug > > thanks Doug, I do know this, in my brain, but sometimes my heart > forgets..especially like now, when mothers day and nada attacking me every > time we have contact, and me going through some rough times right now, and I > could USE a mother , but dont have one because she will attack me if I talk > to her....sigh....some days it's harder than others.. > > Jackie > > > > > > Jackie > > Please don t let yourself focus there. Unforgiveness and vengeance are > a like a slow acid that eats away at your soul and being. If there is > payback it is not our provence, or concern. But by holding on to the > hate and anger, we place ourselves still under their control. > > We must forgive them, give up our right to exact payment, and thereby > say , not for them you understand, but for us, all you did no longer has > power over me. I won t permit you to do it anymore, but I won t live my > life as a prisoner to it either. > > This is not, not not, for nada. It is for us to heal. Unforgiveness is > a poisen. Let it out of you. Scream, sob, tear hell out of a pillow if > you need to, but finally, let it go. It is part of your story, but it is > nada s stuff to carry. You don t have to. Let it go. It is very > freeing, and healing. > > May we all heal my friends. > > Doug > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 2, 2010 Report Share Posted May 2, 2010 Hi , That is funny about Sun Tzu; we must be on a wavelength. There is also a business book for women: The Art of War For Women. I think things like this are valuable in the sense that out in the world, people do not necessarily care if one is a nice person or had this or that trouble and we have to know how to make it through many of the situations we are confronted with. I watched a program on The Art of War and I enjoyed it a lot. I wish I could study more carefully and remember the tactics. Ah well....some day. The hormonal stuff...well I don't like the *dull* feeling. Today my ex husband was here (he is doing some work in my house for which I am paying him) and he seems happy and content; he has a girlfriend and he even said he is content. I cannot help that I feel a bit of something. Is it envy, bitterness, shame? I am not sure. Perhaps all those things. I do think in many contexts it is tougher for women in middle age (especially single divorced moms ) given the decline in hormones and what seems to be a difficulty in finding a good partner. It could just be the women I know, and the men I know. But I feel I have lost a resilience that I used to have. I used to feel bad but then bounce back. I don't like having to wait til it balances out because I know it could be years! I don't want this for years. It would be different I suppose if I were in a safe, stable relationship; I am guessing. There is the added stress of dealing with mom and her problems with old age; though she seems better for now. She called me because she had not heard from me and was worried. But I was just feeling too sad to call. But for the first time we talked a bit about our sadness over my sister's death. That was good. I worry about my sister's children, but the older daughter is there to take care of things. So I can let that go for awhile. I have lost, I think, a lot of my anger at my mom and my wishes or sadness around my childhood has sunk into a deep well somewhere in my psyche. Perhaps some alchemy will take place and I will emerge from this place transformed. But I have no idea. I feel sad when I think of how things ended for my sister; and how the lives of my brother and I seem hard in the realms of finance and relationships. It makes me feel I have some kind of curse on me. I hope that is not true. Anyway, I hope your dinner was not too intolerable Did you end up having a good time after all? ~patricia To: WTOAdultChildren1 Sent: Saturday, May 01, 2010 5:59 PM Subject: Re: gaslighting Hi ...I'm glad you weren't put off by my post It's funny you mention Sun Tzu and The Art of War--that was on my mind as I wrote that post,actually.I had to go up to Manhatten for a couple of days of endless meetings.I'm still in that zone,which I would like to just switch off but can't,quite.Even though at the same time I ask myself what is the point of my job really.Now,if we were plotting to take over the world to make it a great place for everybody that would be different... Some fun quotes from Sun Tzu: --In making tactical dispositions, the highest pitch you can attain is to conceal them. --Hence that general is skillful in attack whose opponent does not know what to defend; and he is skillful in defense whose opponent does not know what to attack. --The art of war teaches us to rely not on the likelihood of the enemy's not coming, but on our own readiness to receive him; not on the chance of his not attacking, but rather on the fact that we have made our position unassailable. Anyway...well that's good you have an appointment with an endocrinologist,even if it's not until June. There seems to be better,or growing,awareness about post partum mood disorders these days.It's outrageous to me that the nurse you spoke to thought what you were going through was unusual! It happens quite often,actually.Women in NJ are now required by law to be informed about post partum depression and given a special hotline number to call before they leave the hospital with their baby.There are support groups for that now,although anti depressants are still pushed.The NJ law is due to become the law of the land as part of the " Mother's Act " that is part of the national health care bill,although people are already protesting it on the grounds of privacy violations and such. I feel a bit different because of the shift in my hormones,like duller.But also calmer.For a while there I felt as if I'd lost my vital link to feeling inspired about anything pretty much,but over time it has balanced out.Hopefully over time your system will also balance out or you'll find something that helps.Having your joy of life sapped away is awful... I'm supposed to be washing a dress,etc and getting ready to go out to dinner with some people,a previous arrangement I wish I could get out of now but can't.I spent the morning running errands in the heat and heavy traffic...I just want to chill and relax...sorry this post is so disjointed...I'd better go get ready.Bleh. No sign of menopause! I looked up the numbers and of course they are *normal* for where I am, in pre-menopause. She thought that since I was getting regular periods that nothing was wrong. > When I was searching about for bioidentical hormonal treatment, I found that it is really expensive. That because it is not considered " standard of care " insurance companies won't pay for all that. My regular dr. referred me to an endocrinologist which I believe he said would treat with bioidentical hormones; my appointment is not til june though! > > But yeah..antidepressants are the go-to thing for these doctors; but really, one has to know about brain chemistry to understand how they work. And each person has a different thing going on and how can you just go: Oh, you are crying, get an antidepressant! > By the way, when I had my son, I had that post partum *blues*. Except it was not *blues* it felt like a bad drug trip; and I was weeping and desperate. When I called, the nurse seemed sort of blank, like: oh this is unusual. I wish I had a doula or midwife. > > Your experience sounds terrible and it shows that there is not a good understanding around women and hormones. My understanding is that perimenopause is when all the crazy symptoms happen; but it sounds like you went through some dramatic shift and then evened out. > And I think the word you use *despondent* is a good one to describe the feelings. I feel as though my resilience and joy of life is sapped away. I know part of it is life events, but also hormonal stuff. I can tell that I am not who I used to be. > > I am looking for a different gynecologist this year. I am not happy with my past few years with the one I have. She is good for surgery etc. But this emotional connection and alternative stuff, forget it. > > I hear what you are saying about the spinal specialist guy. I think that what I will say to him when I go for my shots is that I think there was a misunderstanding about the pain medication, (because really, I'm sure I could get it somewhere if I wanted to, don't need a doctor). I am not going to " explain myself " but just like you said, assert my point in the context of my pain and my insurance constraints. And also, like you said, keep my cards close to my chest. This is the sort of strategic thinking that I would like to learn; it's hard for > me to remember these things (for example, when I deal with my son's school issues) > What you describe reminds me of the book by Sun Tzu The Art of War; which I do have a copy of and I should read it. And somehow internalize it, because it is merely about strategy and in this world we do need that. > Thank you for your two cents I will re-read your email; I go for my shots next week. > ~patricia > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > Problems? Ask our friendly List Manager for help at @ SEND HER ANY POSTS THAT CONCERN YOU; DO NOT Respond ON THE GROUP. > > > > To order the KO bible " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " call 888-35-SHELL () for your copy. We also refer to " Understanding the Borderline Mother " (Lawson) and " Surviving the Borderline Parent, " (Roth) which you can find at any bookstore. Welcome to the WTO community! > > > > From Randi Kreger, Owner BPDCentral, WTO Online Community and author SWOE and the SWOE Workbook. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 2, 2010 Report Share Posted May 2, 2010 I guess that justice is served only in " the after-life " , if you believe in a heaven and a hell. But justice doesn't seem to be served very often in this life, I agree. -Annie > > so when is pay back ?? when will they ever be " punished " for what they did > to us ?? > > Jackie > > > > Yes, the nada's ability to totally rewrite history is amazing. How nice for > the nadas that they have no memories of all the hurt, fear, guilt, shame and > damage they inflicted on helpless little children who were totally and > abjectly dependent on them and wanted nothing more in the world than their > mother's approval and love. > > -Annie > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 8, 2010 Report Share Posted May 8, 2010 ,thank you for your caring and your counsel.I have had to resolve,to myself,that I am in fact utterly alone in the experience I had with the gang rapes,that happened during a period of three years from ages 5-8.It's something nobody ever understands or wants to hear about.My encounter with absolute evil.My therapist is the only one who can bear any of it in the details,but she's heard so much and she did choose that profession after all of her own free will... I told my girlfriend the truth: I just need to be alone this weekend.People,including her,take that the wrong way but that is what I do need.Not because I WANT to be alone.But because I AM.That is what I didn't have when the rapes were happening: being able to say that I need to be left ALONE.And to have that be respected. If I could simply--and it is really very simple,but apparently too much to ask of others--share some of the details so it would be known how bad it was,I could get it off my chest so to speak...but it becomes an issue of making others uncomfortable,so I have to deal with it alone except in therapy. Like,my girlfriend would say: But you need company right now...as if that would be a comfort but it is NOT when I am having to censor myself.I'd rather be alone.Because the censoring is a trigger. I've done everything I can think of to deal with the flashbacks from the first hot weather: letting myself feel it/experience it/...telling myself it's not happening now...trying to replace it with a better/happier experience...but it's actually a catastrophe on top of previous catastrophe so when it happened I didn't have any foundation to rely on,just more previous horror from nada--that is why it was so resoundingly traumatic,not that it wouldn't have been anyway.It's just alot,alot of intensity...I was threatened with death (by burning my house down) every time afterward and I tried eventually to get help to no avail...my teacher laughed at me when I told her,when I believed that death was immanent for me...it's alot to deal with...and much much much comes up for me when the weather first gets hot,it comes over me no matter how hard I try...and I never want it to and always hope that this year will be different. I've worked on my sexuality for years and mostly it's fine now.My girlfriend and I have a meaningful sexual rapport and mostly it's been liberating,but not when I'm feeling like this.I do not want those monsters to intrude.I just want to leave that out when I can.Because having them *there* when I'm in this state is like they win.For me,sexual ecstasy is a spiritual matter and I don't want any evil sullying it,not when I have finally gotten to liberation.I need it to be holy and good and transcendental.Other than when I'm swilling in this utter despair (about MANY things related to being gang raped),I do feel the joyousness of deep sexual connection,like I am finally free from that horror and destruction.All I really want is to get beyond the knowningness of pure evil but for me it is many layered--MANY--and I have to accept that nobody is going to go there with me--except someone I pay to do so,my therapist--and that I am completely alone in that knowingness. It's something I could attempt to explain ad infinitum or ad nauseam but only I am going to get it.I feel like even if somebody else understood how bad it was,they will still conjecture stuff from it that I don't,although their awareness of just how bad it was would help somewhat.It never should have happened in the first place.And it got worse over time because nobody stopped it.I have to live with that.Just me,because it happened to me. The LPN idea...is just a means to an end.It's not what I want to end up doing,but it would enable me to work shifts on the weekend and go to school full time during the week.It will mean a cut in pay for a few years but I calculated the figures and I think it will work out in the longterm.My girlfriend's thing is :But why put yourself through all this belt tightening just to end up with a salary like you could have now if you just stay where you are? She comes from an impoverished country where you don't throw away a prestige position when you get one because you want to " find yourself " .Morality and security mean different things to her than to me.She came to this country to make a better life for herself--and to her,if you've got financial security,you'd be a fool to complain or to give that up.I understand that with all the changes I've been going through that my longterm plans might not seem like a sure thing to her--and I also understand the strange insecurity of living in a foreign country/culture since ironically I had the same thing living in *her* country myself.I understand the wanting stability.She's a strong person and isn't financially dependent on me,she's made her own way here,but she's also given up alot to do that because it's just not possible to live openly as a lesbian in Morocco and mainly what she had to trade for her own authenticity is a family/community connection (which is HUGE is her culture) and I do understand her needing to replace that enormous loss with something sure and stable--and her fears of me making a big change in direction not offering the safety and stability she needs to rely on. The other thing is...she tends to believe that dwelling on negativity perpetuates it,which is objectively true...in her mind,if she doesn't focus too much on something,it will resolve itself or a solution will present itself...which is also true of many things in life,but....not trauma...that I need to process and I can only do that by dealing with it.I wasted YEARS trying to make it all better by just getting on with my life,but it always came back to bite me.It's really hard in a romantic relationship to have to say: the relationship isn't enough to heal me...and to have the partner understand it isn't them,it is the enormity of the trauma.For her,it's like it's so upsetting (and maybe what I've written has made her sound a bit mean and selfish when she isn't: she does have my well being at heart,she just doesn't get what I went through)--it's so upsetting that she doesn't understand why I wouldn't chose to just walk away from it and leave it behind,like hand and hand into a brighter day...OF COURSE I would want our relationship to heal me but there is simply so much I am alone in with my own experience and it's complicated,so many many many things I am very very tired of having to deal with. I just need to be alone for a while.Faking it in any way whatsoever right now is too triggering.It seems like I can say over and over again that what I went through from birth was absolutely catastrophic but it's only words that only have meaning for me.So I will deal with that meaning alone.If needing to be alone wasn't made into a big deal,it wouldn't seem so alienating to both of us... I've been through this shit so many times in the past in relationships with the other person taking my needs for solitude (since I AM UTTERLY ALONE IN THIS and I can say that til I'm blue in the face and it's like I'm shouting into the wind)the wrong way and I am just really tired of it. Even after all these words,I haven't been able to explain how I feel at all.It's easier on me to just be alone,since there is really nothing I can say about it that would clarify all this complication that never should have been in the first place. > > > > Hi , > > That is funny about Sun Tzu; we must be on a wavelength. There is also a business book for women: The Art of War For Women. I think things like this are valuable in the sense that out in the world, people do not necessarily care if one is a nice person or had this or that trouble and we have to know how to make it through many of the situations we are confronted with. > > I watched a program on The Art of War and I enjoyed it a lot. I wish I could study more carefully and remember the tactics. > > Ah well....some day. > > > > The hormonal stuff...well I don't like the *dull* feeling. Today my ex husband was here (he is doing some work in my house for which I am paying him) and he seems happy and content; he has a girlfriend and he even said he is content. I cannot help that I feel a bit of something. Is it envy, bitterness, shame? I am not sure. Perhaps all those things. I do think in many contexts it is tougher for women in middle age (especially single divorced moms ) given the decline in hormones and what seems to be a difficulty in finding a good partner. It could just be the women I know, and the men I know. But I feel I have lost a resilience that I used to have. I used to feel bad but then bounce back. I don't like having to wait til it balances out because I know it could be years! I don't want this for years. It would be different I suppose if I were in a safe, stable relationship; I am guessing. > > > > There is the added stress of dealing with mom and her problems with old age; though she seems better for now. She called me because she had not heard from me and was worried. But I was just feeling too sad to call. But for the first time we talked a bit about our sadness over my sister's death. That was good. I worry about my sister's children, but the older daughter is there to take care of things. So I can let that go for awhile. > > I have lost, I think, a lot of my anger at my mom and my wishes or sadness around my childhood has sunk into a deep well somewhere in my psyche. Perhaps some alchemy will take place and I will emerge from this place transformed. But I have no idea. I feel sad when I think of how things ended for my sister; and how the lives of my brother and I seem hard in the realms of finance and relationships. It makes me feel I have some kind of curse on me. I hope that is not true. > > > > Anyway, I hope your dinner was not too intolerable Did you end up having a good time after all? > > ~patricia > > > > Problems? Ask our friendly List Manager for help at @ SEND HER ANY POSTS THAT CONCERN YOU; DO NOT Respond ON THE GROUP. > > > > To order the KO bible " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " call 888-35-SHELL () for your copy. We also refer to " Understanding the Borderline Mother " (Lawson) and " Surviving the Borderline Parent, " (Roth) which you can find at any bookstore. Welcome to the WTO community! > > > > From Randi Kreger, Owner BPDCentral, WTO Online Community and author SWOE and the SWOE Workbook. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 8, 2010 Report Share Posted May 8, 2010 Hi , I decided to answer your email in pieces because of the different issues. I am so sorry to hear of your struggle with recovery around being gang raped when you were so young. I do so get how people do not want to hear of these things that have happened because to them it is incomprehensible. It is not something they have any skill with and so cannot really face it. However, I am not one of those people. I have volunteered a lot of my time with women who have gone through these things (and I also worked as a research interviewer with women who had experienced abuse and drug issues). That program I did and then volunteered for (womeninpowerprogram.com) involved hundreds of women who have gone through similar (some worse some not as bad) situations. I do know there are those who can and will gladly be with you and *get it*. But in general most people can't do it. And I know that is a lonesome and sometimes desperate place to be in. It does make sense that you would want to be alone when you experience flashbacks. This is that other aspect where people don't understand that sometimes it is better that way. (I had friends over last night, and felt that I really needed to be alone even though I complain I am lonely...it's just sometimes you need that when you are going through pain). And yeah, censoring yourself is a very bad feeling. That is how most of us (on this list) probably grew up to one degree or another. The idea that adults would not listen to you is so outrageous. And yet, over time I see how adults are not what we think they are when we are children. I am glad you are in a good place with your sexuality. And yet I hear that there are the layers underneath of the evil that was perpetrated on you. Again, there are those who can and will listen and will not require you to censor yourself. I have seen some amazing things with women helping other women to heal. Truly amazing. I believe it is possible. Not to forget or get rid of those bad things but to transform ourselves in that alchemy of healing that is possible. I know there are really not the right words to articulate how it *was* for you. Especially since you were so young when it happened and you had no validation or savior to protect you. That is why I loved the work I did/witnessed because there was the acceptance that *words* were not always possible or even the best way to work on the issue(s). Of course the work is ongoing for us all. But that pathway is the one thing I have experienced a sense of joyfulness in healing; a relief of being witnessed; and love of being cared for. So, anything you care to say, just letting you know, that I am not afraid to hear it. And being alone is fine too! more later, ~patricia Re: gaslighting ,thank you for your caring and your counsel.I have had to resolve,to myself,that I am in fact utterly alone in the experience I had with the gang rapes,that happened during a period of three years from ages 5-8.It's something nobody ever understands or wants to hear about.My encounter with absolute evil.My therapist is the only one who can bear any of it in the details,but she's heard so much and she did choose that profession after all of her own free will... I told my girlfriend the truth: I just need to be alone this weekend.People,including her,take that the wrong way but that is what I do need.Not because I WANT to be alone.But because I AM.That is what I didn't have when the rapes were happening: being able to say that I need to be left ALONE.And to have that be respected. If I could simply--and it is really very simple,but apparently too much to ask of others--share some of the details so it would be known how bad it was,I could get it off my chest so to speak...but it becomes an issue of making others uncomfortable,so I have to deal with it alone except in therapy. Like,my girlfriend would say: But you need company right now...as if that would be a comfort but it is NOT when I am having to censor myself.I'd rather be alone.Because the censoring is a trigger. I've done everything I can think of to deal with the flashbacks from the first hot weather: letting myself feel it/experience it/...telling myself it's not happening now...trying to replace it with a better/happier experience...but it's actually a catastrophe on top of previous catastrophe so when it happened I didn't have any foundation to rely on,just more previous horror from nada--that is why it was so resoundingly traumatic,not that it wouldn't have been anyway.It's just alot,alot of intensity...I was threatened with death (by burning my house down) every time afterward and I tried eventually to get help to no avail...my teacher laughed at me when I told her,when I believed that death was immanent for me...it's alot to deal with...and much much much comes up for me when the weather first gets hot,it comes over me no matter how hard I try...and I never want it to and always hope that this year will be different. I've worked on my sexuality for years and mostly it's fine now.My girlfriend and I have a meaningful sexual rapport and mostly it's been liberating,but not when I'm feeling like this.I do not want those monsters to intrude.I just want to leave that out when I can.Because having them *there* when I'm in this state is like they win.For me,sexual ecstasy is a spiritual matter and I don't want any evil sullying it,not when I have finally gotten to liberation.I need it to be holy and good and transcendental.Other than when I'm swilling in this utter despair (about MANY things related to being gang raped),I do feel the joyousness of deep sexual connection,like I am finally free from that horror and destruction.All I really want is to get beyond the knowningness of pure evil but for me it is many layered--MANY--and I have to accept that nobody is going to go there with me--except someone I pay to do so,my therapist--and that I am completely alone in that knowingness. It's something I could attempt to explain ad infinitum or ad nauseam but only I am going to get it.I feel like even if somebody else understood how bad it was,they will still conjecture stuff from it that I don't,although their awareness of just how bad it was would help somewhat.It never should have happened in the first place.And it got worse over time because nobody stopped it.I have to live with that.Just me,because it happened to me. The LPN idea...is just a means to an end.It's not what I want to end up doing,but it would enable me to work shifts on the weekend and go to school full time during the week.It will mean a cut in pay for a few years but I calculated the figures and I think it will work out in the longterm.My girlfriend's thing is :But why put yourself through all this belt tightening just to end up with a salary like you could have now if you just stay where you are? She comes from an impoverished country where you don't throw away a prestige position when you get one because you want to " find yourself " .Morality and security mean different things to her than to me.She came to this country to make a better life for herself--and to her,if you've got financial security,you'd be a fool to complain or to give that up.I understand that with all the changes I've been going through that my longterm plans might not seem like a sure thing to her--and I also understand the strange insecurity of living in a foreign country/culture since ironically I had the same thing living in *her* country myself.I understand the wanting stability.She's a strong person and isn't financially dependent on me,she's made her own way here,but she's also given up alot to do that because it's just not possible to live openly as a lesbian in Morocco and mainly what she had to trade for her own authenticity is a family/community connection (which is HUGE is her culture) and I do understand her needing to replace that enormous loss with something sure and stable--and her fears of me making a big change in direction not offering the safety and stability she needs to rely on. The other thing is...she tends to believe that dwelling on negativity perpetuates it,which is objectively true...in her mind,if she doesn't focus too much on something,it will resolve itself or a solution will present itself...which is also true of many things in life,but....not trauma...that I need to process and I can only do that by dealing with it.I wasted YEARS trying to make it all better by just getting on with my life,but it always came back to bite me.It's really hard in a romantic relationship to have to say: the relationship isn't enough to heal me...and to have the partner understand it isn't them,it is the enormity of the trauma.For her,it's like it's so upsetting (and maybe what I've written has made her sound a bit mean and selfish when she isn't: she does have my well being at heart,she just doesn't get what I went through)--it's so upsetting that she doesn't understand why I wouldn't chose to just walk away from it and leave it behind,like hand and hand into a brighter day...OF COURSE I would want our relationship to heal me but there is simply so much I am alone in with my own experience and it's complicated,so many many many things I am very very tired of having to deal with. I just need to be alone for a while.Faking it in any way whatsoever right now is too triggering.It seems like I can say over and over again that what I went through from birth was absolutely catastrophic but it's only words that only have meaning for me.So I will deal with that meaning alone.If needing to be alone wasn't made into a big deal,it wouldn't seem so alienating to both of us... I've been through this shit so many times in the past in relationships with the other person taking my needs for solitude (since I AM UTTERLY ALONE IN THIS and I can say that til I'm blue in the face and it's like I'm shouting into the wind)the wrong way and I am just really tired of it. Even after all these words,I haven't been able to explain how I feel at all.It's easier on me to just be alone,since there is really nothing I can say about it that would clarify all this complication that never should have been in the first place. > > > > Hi , > > That is funny about Sun Tzu; we must be on a wavelength. There is also a business book for women: The Art of War For Women. I think things like this are valuable in the sense that out in the world, people do not necessarily care if one is a nice person or had this or that trouble and we have to know how to make it through many of the situations we are confronted with. > > I watched a program on The Art of War and I enjoyed it a lot. I wish I could study more carefully and remember the tactics. > > Ah well....some day. > > > > The hormonal stuff...well I don't like the *dull* feeling. Today my ex husband was here (he is doing some work in my house for which I am paying him) and he seems happy and content; he has a girlfriend and he even said he is content. I cannot help that I feel a bit of something. Is it envy, bitterness, shame? I am not sure. Perhaps all those things. I do think in many contexts it is tougher for women in middle age (especially single divorced moms ) given the decline in hormones and what seems to be a difficulty in finding a good partner. It could just be the women I know, and the men I know. But I feel I have lost a resilience that I used to have. I used to feel bad but then bounce back. I don't like having to wait til it balances out because I know it could be years! I don't want this for years. It would be different I suppose if I were in a safe, stable relationship; I am guessing. > > > > There is the added stress of dealing with mom and her problems with old age; though she seems better for now. She called me because she had not heard from me and was worried. But I was just feeling too sad to call. But for the first time we talked a bit about our sadness over my sister's death. That was good. I worry about my sister's children, but the older daughter is there to take care of things. So I can let that go for awhile. > > I have lost, I think, a lot of my anger at my mom and my wishes or sadness around my childhood has sunk into a deep well somewhere in my psyche. Perhaps some alchemy will take place and I will emerge from this place transformed. But I have no idea. I feel sad when I think of how things ended for my sister; and how the lives of my brother and I seem hard in the realms of finance and relationships. It makes me feel I have some kind of curse on me. I hope that is not true. > > > > Anyway, I hope your dinner was not too intolerable Did you end up having a good time after all? > > ~patricia > > > > Problems? Ask our friendly List Manager for help at @ SEND HER ANY POSTS THAT CONCERN YOU; DO NOT Respond ON THE GROUP. > > > > To order the KO bible " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " call 888-35-SHELL () for your copy. We also refer to " Understanding the Borderline Mother " (Lawson) and " Surviving the Borderline Parent, " (Roth) which you can find at any bookstore. Welcome to the WTO community! > > > > From Randi Kreger, Owner BPDCentral, WTO Online Community and author SWOE and the SWOE Workbook. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 9, 2010 Report Share Posted May 9, 2010 Willard was the original, Ben was the sequal...I had gerbles, but they disappeared, just like the hamsters and turtles and bird..Giant schanuzers are reall cool dogs !! I knew a pair in OH where I lived during high school... I am so sorry your had to endure this abuse...and sorry you remember it :-( too bad it isnt something you could have blocked from you rmemory... Jackie The boys who were raping me (along with my teenaged babysitter when my " parents " went out at night--she wasn't very bright and was actually only twelve when it started and she ended up participating to spare herself) anyway those boys got nastier and wilder as time went on and they never got caught or nothing happened to them.It's like they even pushed it to see how much they could get away with,how far they could go,like it was part of the fun.The *only* reason why it did stop was because the ring leader turned 18 and left home and the other ones didn't dare to continue without him.And some time soon after that,we got a dog,a Giant Schnauzer.They're awesome guard dogs.In a way,I was also saved by the dog--imagine PD parents who acquire a certain breed and have no idea how to train it--he was bred to be a guard dog and he did attack people,just not us.Of course I had no way of knowing it was going to end--it seemed like it would go on either forever or until they killed me.I think now that if we had gotten the dog earlier,it might have ended sooner.That wasn't the reason they got a dog,of course.Nada didn't even realize he was a Giant Schnauzer,she just thought he was a cute puppy. Humiliation is a common feature of gang rape,as is the use of objects.They did both--then one night more than two years into this,they involved my gerbils.We had several because nada had let them breed.The babies from one of the litters had gotten all tangled up in some nesting material she had bought and most of them died horribly from having the material wound around their necks and bodies.I cut them out one by one from the " nest " with a pair of cuticle scissors and carefully cut off the wrapped around strands from their bodies while nada sat there and screamed and cried about what a nightmare it was.Tiny little feet coming away between my fingers as I cut away the material--feet literally cut off by how tightly the " nesting " was wrapped around them.Tiny tails coming off the same way.Baby gerbils convulsing and dying in my lap.One with its head dangling because the material was wrapped so tight around its neck it half way cut off its head.The ones I managed to save had missing legs,feet,tails. One of them lost one front leg and one back leg.Nada called her " Gimper " ,can you imagine.Like it was funny--because after she got over her screaming " this is a nightmare " hysteria,she acted like nothing much had happened.Although she did go back to the pet store where she'd bought the nesting material in a rage--I was there and it was very embarassing.AND she lied about how SHE had tried to save them. Anyway,the night they involved the gerbils was some time after this,when " Gimper " was an adult gerbil (and I was seven).The abuse always happened in the living room in front of the tv--one of their jokes was, " Let's have sex while we watch tv " ...my brother was always already in bed,I made sure of that.I was actually terrified that they'd hurt him too,like this would be much worse than them hurting me. That night,November something of 1974,the movie " Willard " was on the tv.About some guy who keeps and trains rats.I think it was the sequel to " Ben " .There were five of them that night,a real party.Plus the babysitter.I think most of it is probably too graphic to write about here.One of the things they often did was choke me with a certain body part of theirs (using force and threats of injury/death--I never did anything willingly) until I faded out and then have fun slapping or shaking me to make me " wake up " .But that night because there were five of them and it was more brutal than it had been before and they were like all wild and insane,I did regain consciousness but I could not be there.Plus the movie on tv was adding to the nightmare atmosphere.I just stayed blank. So the ringleader picked me up by my ankles and dangled me upside down and sort of swung me around.I couldn't stop being blank.He put me down then dragged me by the ankles across the carpeted floor on my back so fast it was burning my back and one of them laughed because he said there were sparks and one of them laughed, " Hey,do you think we could make her spontaneously combust? " I wasn't a human being to them,just an object.And still that wasn't enough or exciting enough for them.The ringleader glanced at the tv (there was this pack of rats on the screen,I remember it as them sort of writhing and running) and he said, " You have rats,don't you? " and went towards our playroom where we had a neighborhood of Habitrails. I went after him,present again,because I couldn't bear for him to hurt my gerbils.He took the lid off of one of the Habitrails and grabbed " Gimper " while I kicked at him (and he laughed) and tried to pull his arm away (while he laughed) and he walked off ahead of me holding her by the tail while I ran after him saying, " Put her back,don't hurt my gerbil " and crying. I told them if he put her back,I'd do anything they wanted,just put her back.That only gave him an idea. They held me down on the sofa and tried to get " Gimper " to attack me.First by dangling her in my face by her tail so she'd bite me on the face.Then by throwing her at me.I was terrified they were going to kill her.Then they had the idea to rape me with the gerbil when they tried but she didn't bite me down there.So they used her as an object--like I would kill my own gerbil with my own body.She was scratching me with the claws from her one front foot. After a few moments of this (and I was sure she was going to suffocate to death any second and was willing her to stay alive and keep scratching me),the ringleader pulled her out and held her up by the tail.He lit a cigarette and held it close to her.She twitched and bucked to get away from the heat.He put the cigarette near one of her eyes and said, " I'm going to gouge this rat's eye out with my cigarette " while they all laughed and I struggled to get free from them but couldn't.Then he threw her at me and they let me go. I remember standing naked in our playroom with the light on checking her over for injuries,my hands shaking and everything sort of flashing before me.She seemed fine.I put her back in her cage.I had a carpet burn on my back and it hurt and other bruising.I was tossing in my bed later trying not to go insane and I decided that enough was enough.They had threatened,again,to kill me if I told.The babysitter had begged me not to say anything so she wouldn't get in trouble.But this was no longer just about my life.I was really afraid that the next time,they would kill one of the gerbils and maybe even " Gimper " who had miraculously lived through that nesting material horror. The next morning I thought I'd find her dead,but she was alive.I rehearsed something to say to nada and asked her to come to the playroom.I didn't think she'd care about me,but I thought she really loved the gerbils.I thought that if she knew what had happened to " Gimper " that she'd care and want to do something. She screamed at me that she was " sick of you and your sick lies " and told me to shut up.Like,really furious with me. So I decided to tell my second grade teacher.I waited until we had a playtime/break in the classroom and asked to speak privately to her.She laughed at me when I told her what I had to say (and I did say specifically " I don't want to have sex with those boys anymore " --I wasn't being cryptic)--she laughed and said, " Did you see that on tv? You must have seen that on tv... " THEN SHE WALKED AWAY. I felt like I was doomed to die,that " Gimper " was doomed to die.I felt like I was going to lose my mind.I felt myself turning into a human corpse,sitting there at my desk.My whole body from the neck down turning into this dead block of wood.I didn't know quite how I would die--asphixiation,by fire as they threatened to do--only that I knew that every time it got worse and after this being the worst it had been (I have omitted other graphic details),that the only even worse I could imagine would be them getting so out of control,they killed me. The year before,with this same idiotic teacher,the police had come to give a presentation about stranger danger.They gave us this ridiculous book about a boy saving his little sister from a man who abducted her in his car by running to the police.I was like,well,what do you do if you don't have a big brother??? When the two policemen were taking questions from us,I went over to the teacher and asked her if I could talk privately to the policemen.She said ok and I went back to my seat.But then they were leaving and she was going wih them out in the hall.I got up and went after them and she told me to go back into the classroom.I said, " But I told you,I wanted to ask them some questions " and she said, " You had a chance to ask them questions in class,why didn't you ask your questions then? They have to go now,go back to your seat. " I said to the policemen, " I need to talk to you about something " and the teacher told me again to go back to my seat and the policemen were just standing there smiling and neither of them responded to me at all.It was surreal,like they were all just idiots.Or they just didn't care. So,that day in second grade after the " Willard " night I thought of calling the police but then I figured they wouldn't even listen to me.Later that week I had a Brownie meet and I decided to tell the Brownie leader. I was going to ask to speak to her after the meet.But she got upset when the girls didn't line right up when she told them to and burst into tears.She was sobbing, " Nobody ever listens to me...why...why...why...I told you to line up,I told you to line up... " Her mascara was running in lines down her cheeks and she looked like a lunatic.She was childish,sobbing over nothing.She wanted US to comfort HER. And I thought,she's even more of a kid than we are.She's not going to listen to me,either.And she was STILL crying after we lined up and were filing out of the school library and she was saying, " I quit,I quit...you might not have a meet the next time,until you get a new Brownie leader...I quit,nobody ever listens to me... " Boo hoo hoo,massive self pity. I developed a new alter instead,the only solution I could come up with.His name was Jake and he didn't care if he died.He also liked sex and to him it was a funny joke that those boys thought they were doing a girl when they were really doing a boy--the joke was on them.He stood in for me every time afterward,but unfortunately he also didn't go away after it stopped.That's another part of a long story.I didn't integrate Jake until late January or so of this year. About censoring...I censor myself all the time in the sense of hardly ever mentioning aloud what I'm thinking about,the many intrusive trauma flashbacks that I have.Or I'm talking about one thing (something normal and acceptable) while I'm thinking about something I know I can't share.I also censor myself alot on this board--sometimes I don't.Like with this (and this is a censored version...) I understand how it's too much for other people to hear or to deal with.Or how someone other than me (or my therapist) would develop compassion fatigue hearing about it.I have to live with all of this that could have been/should have been stopped if I hadn't been surrounded by idiots when it was happening.I start to achieve better acceptance of it or better objectivity or more peace with it,then there is another layer to deal with.My girlfriend says things like, " Oh,darling,you don't have to think about those things anymore,it's going to be ok now " like here let me hold you and make it all go away...but it doesn't work like that.I wish it did,but it just doesn't. I don't know how long it's going to take or if this is going to be lifelong.I keep wanting to get to the point where I can make use of my experiences to *do* something to effect change,like at least getting NJ's mandated reporter law changed.But I'm never there yet.I'm farther along in coming to terms with all of it than I've ever been before...and...I don't want all this suffering to be only that and just in vain...but until I get it together,most of my processing is going to have to be done on my own,alone...it seems to me...Sometimes I don't even know anymore what would help,just that there is safety in solitude. Thanks for listening... > > Hi , > I decided to answer your email in pieces because of the different issues. > I am so sorry to hear of your struggle with recovery around being gang raped when you > were so young. I do so get how people do not want to hear of these things that have happened > because to them it is incomprehensible. It is not something they have any skill with and so cannot really face it. However, I am not one of those people. I have volunteered a lot of my time with women who have gone through these things (and I also worked as a research > interviewer with women who had experienced abuse and drug issues). > That program I did and then volunteered for (womeninpowerprogram.com) involved hundreds of women who have gone through similar (some worse some not as bad) situations. > > I do know there are those who can and will gladly be with you and *get it*. But in general most people can't do it. And I know that is a lonesome and sometimes desperate place to be in. It does make sense that you would want to be alone when you experience flashbacks. This is that other aspect where people don't understand that sometimes it is better that way. > (I had friends over last night, and felt that I really needed to be alone even though I complain I am lonely...it's just sometimes you need that when you are going through pain). > And yeah, censoring yourself is a very bad feeling. That is how most of us (on this list) probably grew up to one degree or another. > > The idea that adults would not listen to you is so outrageous. And yet, over time I see how adults are not what we think they are when we are children. > > I am glad you are in a good place with your sexuality. And yet I hear that there are the layers underneath of the evil that was perpetrated on you. Again, there are those who can and will listen and will not require you to censor yourself. I have seen some amazing things with women helping other women to heal. Truly amazing. I believe it is possible. Not to forget or get rid of those bad things but to transform ourselves in that alchemy of healing that is possible. I know there are really not the right words to articulate how it *was* for you. Especially since you were so young when it happened and you had no validation or savior to protect you. That is why I loved the work I did/witnessed because there was the acceptance that *words* were not always possible or even the best way to work on the issue(s). > Of course the work is ongoing for us all. But that pathway is the one thing I have experienced a sense of joyfulness in healing; a relief of being witnessed; and love of being cared for. > > So, anything you care to say, just letting you know, that I am not afraid to hear it. And being alone is fine too! > more later, > ~patricia > Re: gaslighting > > > ,thank you for your caring and your counsel.I have had to resolve,to myself,that I am in fact utterly alone in the experience I had with the gang rapes,that happened during a period of three years from ages 5-8.It's something nobody ever understands or wants to hear about.My encounter with absolute evil.My therapist is the only one who can bear any of it in the details,but she's heard so much and she did choose that profession after all of her own free will... > > I told my girlfriend the truth: I just need to be alone this weekend.People,including her,take that the wrong way but that is what I do need.Not because I WANT to be alone.But because I AM.That is what I didn't have when the rapes were happening: being able to say that I need to be left ALONE.And to have that be respected. > > If I could simply--and it is really very simple,but apparently too much to ask of others--share some of the details so it would be known how bad it was,I could get it off my chest so to speak...but it becomes an issue of making others uncomfortable,so I have to deal with it alone except in therapy. > > Like,my girlfriend would say: But you need company right now...as if that would be a comfort but it is NOT when I am having to censor myself.I'd rather be alone.Because the censoring is a trigger. > > I've done everything I can think of to deal with the flashbacks from the first hot weather: letting myself feel it/experience it/...telling myself it's not happening now...trying to replace it with a better/happier experience...but it's actually a catastrophe on top of previous catastrophe so when it happened I didn't have any foundation to rely on,just more previous horror from nada--that is why it was so resoundingly traumatic,not that it wouldn't have been anyway.It's just alot,alot of intensity...I was threatened with death (by burning my house down) every time afterward and I tried eventually to get help to no avail...my teacher laughed at me when I told her,when I believed that death was immanent for me...it's alot to deal with...and much much much comes up for me when the weather first gets hot,it comes over me no matter how hard I try...and I never want it to and always hope that this year will be different. > > I've worked on my sexuality for years and mostly it's fine now.My girlfriend and I have a meaningful sexual rapport and mostly it's been liberating,but not when I'm feeling like this.I do not want those monsters to intrude.I just want to leave that out when I can.Because having them *there* when I'm in this state is like they win.For me,sexual ecstasy is a spiritual matter and I don't want any evil sullying it,not when I have finally gotten to liberation.I need it to be holy and good and transcendental.Other than when I'm swilling in this utter despair (about MANY things related to being gang raped),I do feel the joyousness of deep sexual connection,like I am finally free from that horror and destruction.All I really want is to get beyond the knowningness of pure evil but for me it is many layered--MANY--and I have to accept that nobody is going to go there with me--except someone I pay to do so,my therapist--and that I am completely alone in that knowingness. > > It's something I could attempt to explain ad infinitum or ad nauseam but only I am going to get it.I feel like even if somebody else understood how bad it was,they will still conjecture stuff from it that I don't,although their awareness of just how bad it was would help somewhat.It never should have happened in the first place.And it got worse over time because nobody stopped it.I have to live with that.Just me,because it happened to me. > > The LPN idea...is just a means to an end.It's not what I want to end up doing,but it would enable me to work shifts on the weekend and go to school full time during the week.It will mean a cut in pay for a few years but I calculated the figures and I think it will work out in the longterm.My girlfriend's thing is :But why put yourself through all this belt tightening just to end up with a salary like you could have now if you just stay where you are? > > She comes from an impoverished country where you don't throw away a prestige position when you get one because you want to " find yourself " .Morality and security mean different things to her than to me.She came to this country to make a better life for herself--and to her,if you've got financial security,you'd be a fool to complain or to give that up.I understand that with all the changes I've been going through that my longterm plans might not seem like a sure thing to her--and I also understand the strange insecurity of living in a foreign country/culture since ironically I had the same thing living in *her* country myself.I understand the wanting stability.She's a strong person and isn't financially dependent on me,she's made her own way here,but she's also given up alot to do that because it's just not possible to live openly as a lesbian in Morocco and mainly what she had to trade for her own authenticity is a family/community connection (which is HUGE is her culture) and I do understand her needing to replace that enormous loss with something sure and stable--and her fears of me making a big change in direction not offering the safety and stability she needs to rely on. > > The other thing is...she tends to believe that dwelling on negativity perpetuates it,which is objectively true...in her mind,if she doesn't focus too much on something,it will resolve itself or a solution will present itself...which is also true of many things in life,but....not trauma...that I need to process and I can only do that by dealing with it.I wasted YEARS trying to make it all better by just getting on with my life,but it always came back to bite me.It's really hard in a romantic relationship to have to say: the relationship isn't enough to heal me...and to have the partner understand it isn't them,it is the enormity of the trauma.For her,it's like it's so upsetting (and maybe what I've written has made her sound a bit mean and selfish when she isn't: she does have my well being at heart,she just doesn't get what I went through)--it's so upsetting that she doesn't understand why I wouldn't chose to just walk away from it and leave it behind,like hand and hand into a brighter day...OF COURSE I would want our relationship to heal me but there is simply so much I am alone in with my own experience and it's complicated,so many many many things I am very very tired of having to deal with. > > I just need to be alone for a while.Faking it in any way whatsoever right now is too triggering.It seems like I can say over and over again that what I went through from birth was absolutely catastrophic but it's only words that only have meaning for me.So I will deal with that meaning alone.If needing to be alone wasn't made into a big deal,it wouldn't seem so alienating to both of us... > > I've been through this shit so many times in the past in relationships with the other person taking my needs for solitude (since I AM UTTERLY ALONE IN THIS and I can say that til I'm blue in the face and it's like I'm shouting into the wind)the wrong way and I am just really tired of it. > > Even after all these words,I haven't been able to explain how I feel at all.It's easier on me to just be alone,since there is really nothing I can say about it that would clarify all this complication that never should have been in the first place. > > ------------------------------------ Problems? Ask our friendly List Manager for help at @.... SEND HER ANY POSTS THAT CONCERN YOU; DO NOT Respond ON THE GROUP. To order the KO bible " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " call 888-35-SHELL () for your copy. We also refer to " Understanding the Borderline Mother " (Lawson) and " Surviving the Borderline Parent, " (Roth) which you can find at any bookstore. Welcome to the WTO community! From Randi Kreger, Owner BPDCentral, WTO Online Community and author SWOE and the SWOE Workbook. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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