Re: gaslighting

[Guest guest]

that's sad !! I always liked my father ( but he was a dishrag and

never protected or stood up for any of us)..until the fall of 2008, when he

called me a terrible daughter..and yelled at me for not caring about my

mother. I had been calling him every other day, but he called me a liar

and said I didn't....so I had the phone bill the next month copied it and

showed it to him ( and the golden child) to prove I had...and all my father

said was he didn't remember it...no apology, never! then 2 months later I

dont even remember what happened, but the parents called me a terrible

daughter again, and that was it...screw them !! They had forgotten

everything we've done for them over the years...twisted things around so

that no one but the golden child has ever done anything for them...I lost

what little respect I had for him

Jackie

Jackie~

Funny how YOU get the slap for speaking the truth and she gets to

do it to you because she is the mother. Face slapping is so humiliating.

One time, when I was in 9th grade, my grandparents were visiting. My mom

was fretting about it for weeks. I don't remember the whole thing but she

was worried she couldn't take their visit (that is the clue, the peek behind

the veil

of her pretense of a *perfect* childhood)

She was worried she would have to go into the mental ward at the hospital.

I kept

trying to boost her up and tell her she could do it. OF course what the

hell did I

know. I am not mad at her for this, just sad, you know? It's not like my

dad was there

helping her; mental fragility is tough to handle alone (My theory: my dad

had severe

mental illness in his family and so he avoided it like hell) I mean, perhaps

the mental

ward WAS where she needed to be. Only problem: us kids would be left with

the

aftermath.

Well on my last day of 9th grade I came home and was told that mom was in

the mental

ward (my grandparents had arrived). I felt so devastated, lost, I don't

know what. I

was attached to my mom regardless of these ways she was.

So at dinner one night, my grandparents and dad were discussing why my mom

was

in the hospital. They started talking about us kids, the house cleanliness

(and who

ever knows what else). I felt this rage build inside me; this

uncontrollable feeling (and

I *control* my self intensely).

And I think I yelled: Fuck You! (my sister recalled this vividly) and my

father slapped me across the face. (My sister called it the slap heard

round the world).

I was so angry at him and them (grand parents) because I knew the truth of

why she was gone

and they were making it like it was our faults. My grandfather later told

me to apologize to

my dad! I said okay (because it was my grandpa) but never did. No freaking

way!

I was 14 or 15 and I had some things figured out by then, and apologizing

for that was one thing I was not going to

do because I did NOT respect my dad for doing that to me. Obviously he did

not care or think about the pain

us children were in to have our mother gone like that.

~patricia

[Guest guest]

that's sad !! I always liked my father ( but he was a dishrag and

never protected or stood up for any of us)..until the fall of 2008, when he

called me a terrible daughter..and yelled at me for not caring about my

mother. I had been calling him every other day, but he called me a liar

and said I didn't....so I had the phone bill the next month copied it and

showed it to him ( and the golden child) to prove I had...and all my father

said was he didn't remember it...no apology, never! then 2 months later I

dont even remember what happened, but the parents called me a terrible

daughter again, and that was it...screw them !! They had forgotten

everything we've done for them over the years...twisted things around so

that no one but the golden child has ever done anything for them...I lost

what little respect I had for him

Jackie

Jackie~

Funny how YOU get the slap for speaking the truth and she gets to

do it to you because she is the mother. Face slapping is so humiliating.

One time, when I was in 9th grade, my grandparents were visiting. My mom

was fretting about it for weeks. I don't remember the whole thing but she

was worried she couldn't take their visit (that is the clue, the peek behind

the veil

of her pretense of a *perfect* childhood)

She was worried she would have to go into the mental ward at the hospital.

I kept

trying to boost her up and tell her she could do it. OF course what the

hell did I

know. I am not mad at her for this, just sad, you know? It's not like my

dad was there

helping her; mental fragility is tough to handle alone (My theory: my dad

had severe

mental illness in his family and so he avoided it like hell) I mean, perhaps

the mental

ward WAS where she needed to be. Only problem: us kids would be left with

the

aftermath.

Well on my last day of 9th grade I came home and was told that mom was in

the mental

ward (my grandparents had arrived). I felt so devastated, lost, I don't

know what. I

was attached to my mom regardless of these ways she was.

So at dinner one night, my grandparents and dad were discussing why my mom

was

in the hospital. They started talking about us kids, the house cleanliness

(and who

ever knows what else). I felt this rage build inside me; this

uncontrollable feeling (and

I *control* my self intensely).

And I think I yelled: Fuck You! (my sister recalled this vividly) and my

father slapped me across the face. (My sister called it the slap heard

round the world).

I was so angry at him and them (grand parents) because I knew the truth of

why she was gone

and they were making it like it was our faults. My grandfather later told

me to apologize to

my dad! I said okay (because it was my grandpa) but never did. No freaking

way!

I was 14 or 15 and I had some things figured out by then, and apologizing

for that was one thing I was not going to

do because I did NOT respect my dad for doing that to me. Obviously he did

not care or think about the pain

us children were in to have our mother gone like that.

~patricia

[Guest guest]

I'm sorry you're not feeling well, I know how pain can make one

depressed...I have severe arthritis in my knees, and pain in the backs of

my thigh muscles...meds only help to a point :-( I'm sorry your drs dont

seem to be able ( or want to) help you...thats rough !!

Jackie

Hi ,

Thank you for your compassion about my pain/injury. I had a fall at work on

my left butt and then I work in this sort of left facing way, bending and

lifting. It has loosened my S-I joint which is not supposed to move. First

I went to my doctor, he sent me to the chiropractor and I went there for

weeks, then to a specialist (first back to the doctor). That specialist

prescribed P/T for twelve visits. I had a trip planned in between that, and

when I got back I went to four visits and then they said: oh that is all you

are covered for. Went back to specialist she gives me a shot (no x-ray) and

says come back. But she also says: well what do you want me to do? She

won't give me a no-working note. Why? And why ask me what do I want her to

do? Meanwhile dealing with workers comp insurance, getting approvals etc.

I go away and shot doesn't work come back and dr says; I don't know what to

do for you. We can do an MRI because your x-rays are fine. Am *I* the

doctor? Have I studied for years this stuff? Am *I* the only one who has

unrelenting pain because of work? She tells me I should find another job.

I said: what? Am I supposed to leave a job where I have a claim (I would

lose my claim if I leave, there is a protocol); limp away? To what?

Another job that aggravates my sacrum but can get no workers comp or

insurance or time off with pay?

How out of touch can these people be?

I went back to my dr and he sends me (for some reason as the last resort??)

to a spine specialist. This guy explains to me exactly what is wrong and

why I need an injection with an x-ray. I am so grateful to finally

understand what is wrong with me, why the brace I had before did not work,

etc. Finally relieved to have a plan. So I call his reception to give

information for insurance approval and asked for pain medication because the

night before I was dying in pain. And I am alone here, no one to massage my

legs and butt area where it hurts so bad. Ibuprofen doesn't work. I make

the mistake of saying alcohol helps it.

So I am taking a nap and the phone goes off and I answer because of all

these insurance and dr calls i have out. The new dr says: I don't

understand why you are asking me for painkillers, like, why now? You have

had this injury since june of 09. You've seen me one time and you are

asking me now? (his concern of course is that I am using him to get

narcotics and then going t my reg dr saying my script ran out and can i get

more).

Well he does not know me at all! And I was like a deer in headlights. I

asked myself: why now? And I couldn't articulate that I felt like I was

finally with the right doctor who could help me get a hold on this really

painful condition. That I normally tolerate pain and endure a lot of pain

(probably sounds familiar to a lot of people here). How could I tell him

that I am having a hard time managing EVERYthing in my life because I am

going through intense complicated grief at the same time and this pain is

wearing me down?

All while he is having this weird accusing tone? When he was so nice in the

office. He says: don't take ibuprofen it could cause bleeding in the

stomach. And alcohol is bad too. I will call your dr and ask him. He

calls back later and leaves a message saying: your doctor said no.

You should talk to him. I call my dr's nurse and she says: he says you

should talk to your actual primary dr. (Who is usually not easy to get into

see because he started another practice doing laser). WTF!! Talk about

triggering issues of pain not being taken care of!

My pain, as a child, was never never addressed. I had some accidents and

was never held and shushhed. My father (the non emotional one) always took

me to the dr or hospital for stitches. Our dentist did not use novacaine on

us. I have a huge avoidance to dental work now. Even though I need it.

Even if just a cleaning.

And now, here I am suffering and they are acting like I am a druggie. My

sister died from that!

My reaction is to go into victim, sad mode. Poor me. But I have people

encouraging me to get mad and demand help (these are guys). But I will say

something when I get my shot; I have this fear that he won't help me now.

It has added to my stress in life in a way I did not need at all.

Sorry this is long; i probably am repeating myself. But I just can't

believe it! (Although when I went to the gynecologist and told her that I

feel during PMS i am almost suicidal, which is not normal; normally I am

just bitchy, she looked at me blankly. She said: I can put you on the pill

but only for three years (til 50); and I don't do well with the pill at all,

it makes me depressed. She mentioned antidepressants (drs must be glad to

be able to go to that and send you away) and pretty much left the room)

I really can understand now what my sister went through with her doctor

situation; the judgments they had, the unwillingness to understand her life

and how to really help her. Ironically, I have barely done drugs in my

life. I drink now at night, because it is the only thing that helps my

sadness and pain, the ONLY thing. I have one, maybe two drinks. That is

it. I live alone, have incredible grief, have a child who needs help in

school but is being

refused (illegally in my opinion) and I have bad pain in the area of my body

that keeps me from doing what usually helps me which is hiking and dancing.

(Dr told me the only thing I could do is tread water...pay ten dollars a

shot to go in a pool somewhere...where I don't know to tread water)

I want to get into Public Health because I want to help people in a way that

actually helps. But maybe I should educate doctors ...I wonder if that is

an aspect of public health that I could get hired for....

Now there is an idea!

If you read this long, thank you

~patricia

[Guest guest]

I'm sorry you're not feeling well, I know how pain can make one

depressed...I have severe arthritis in my knees, and pain in the backs of

my thigh muscles...meds only help to a point :-( I'm sorry your drs dont

seem to be able ( or want to) help you...thats rough !!

Jackie

Hi ,

Thank you for your compassion about my pain/injury. I had a fall at work on

my left butt and then I work in this sort of left facing way, bending and

lifting. It has loosened my S-I joint which is not supposed to move. First

I went to my doctor, he sent me to the chiropractor and I went there for

weeks, then to a specialist (first back to the doctor). That specialist

prescribed P/T for twelve visits. I had a trip planned in between that, and

when I got back I went to four visits and then they said: oh that is all you

are covered for. Went back to specialist she gives me a shot (no x-ray) and

says come back. But she also says: well what do you want me to do? She

won't give me a no-working note. Why? And why ask me what do I want her to

do? Meanwhile dealing with workers comp insurance, getting approvals etc.

I go away and shot doesn't work come back and dr says; I don't know what to

do for you. We can do an MRI because your x-rays are fine. Am *I* the

doctor? Have I studied for years this stuff? Am *I* the only one who has

unrelenting pain because of work? She tells me I should find another job.

I said: what? Am I supposed to leave a job where I have a claim (I would

lose my claim if I leave, there is a protocol); limp away? To what?

Another job that aggravates my sacrum but can get no workers comp or

insurance or time off with pay?

How out of touch can these people be?

I went back to my dr and he sends me (for some reason as the last resort??)

to a spine specialist. This guy explains to me exactly what is wrong and

why I need an injection with an x-ray. I am so grateful to finally

understand what is wrong with me, why the brace I had before did not work,

etc. Finally relieved to have a plan. So I call his reception to give

information for insurance approval and asked for pain medication because the

night before I was dying in pain. And I am alone here, no one to massage my

legs and butt area where it hurts so bad. Ibuprofen doesn't work. I make

the mistake of saying alcohol helps it.

So I am taking a nap and the phone goes off and I answer because of all

these insurance and dr calls i have out. The new dr says: I don't

understand why you are asking me for painkillers, like, why now? You have

had this injury since june of 09. You've seen me one time and you are

asking me now? (his concern of course is that I am using him to get

narcotics and then going t my reg dr saying my script ran out and can i get

more).

Well he does not know me at all! And I was like a deer in headlights. I

asked myself: why now? And I couldn't articulate that I felt like I was

finally with the right doctor who could help me get a hold on this really

painful condition. That I normally tolerate pain and endure a lot of pain

(probably sounds familiar to a lot of people here). How could I tell him

that I am having a hard time managing EVERYthing in my life because I am

going through intense complicated grief at the same time and this pain is

wearing me down?

All while he is having this weird accusing tone? When he was so nice in the

office. He says: don't take ibuprofen it could cause bleeding in the

stomach. And alcohol is bad too. I will call your dr and ask him. He

calls back later and leaves a message saying: your doctor said no.

You should talk to him. I call my dr's nurse and she says: he says you

should talk to your actual primary dr. (Who is usually not easy to get into

see because he started another practice doing laser). WTF!! Talk about

triggering issues of pain not being taken care of!

My pain, as a child, was never never addressed. I had some accidents and

was never held and shushhed. My father (the non emotional one) always took

me to the dr or hospital for stitches. Our dentist did not use novacaine on

us. I have a huge avoidance to dental work now. Even though I need it.

Even if just a cleaning.

And now, here I am suffering and they are acting like I am a druggie. My

sister died from that!

My reaction is to go into victim, sad mode. Poor me. But I have people

encouraging me to get mad and demand help (these are guys). But I will say

something when I get my shot; I have this fear that he won't help me now.

It has added to my stress in life in a way I did not need at all.

Sorry this is long; i probably am repeating myself. But I just can't

believe it! (Although when I went to the gynecologist and told her that I

feel during PMS i am almost suicidal, which is not normal; normally I am

just bitchy, she looked at me blankly. She said: I can put you on the pill

but only for three years (til 50); and I don't do well with the pill at all,

it makes me depressed. She mentioned antidepressants (drs must be glad to

be able to go to that and send you away) and pretty much left the room)

I really can understand now what my sister went through with her doctor

situation; the judgments they had, the unwillingness to understand her life

and how to really help her. Ironically, I have barely done drugs in my

life. I drink now at night, because it is the only thing that helps my

sadness and pain, the ONLY thing. I have one, maybe two drinks. That is

it. I live alone, have incredible grief, have a child who needs help in

school but is being

refused (illegally in my opinion) and I have bad pain in the area of my body

that keeps me from doing what usually helps me which is hiking and dancing.

(Dr told me the only thing I could do is tread water...pay ten dollars a

shot to go in a pool somewhere...where I don't know to tread water)

I want to get into Public Health because I want to help people in a way that

actually helps. But maybe I should educate doctors ...I wonder if that is

an aspect of public health that I could get hired for....

Now there is an idea!

If you read this long, thank you

~patricia

[Guest guest]

Thank you for the thorough response, Doug. That's what I needed to know. I

have a much better understanding now.

And yep, I've got plenty o' experience in this area!

I used to be convinced that I was the crazy one. My nada is VERY SMART and VERY

MANIPULATIVE so I was sure she had remembered the past much more accurately.

Geesh! Where were you guys about 15 years ago? I needed you a LONG time ago!

Doug ~ Do you find that a great deal of the experiences shared on here are

problem oriented? I researched " fleas " yesterday and was interested by what I

read... " Fleas " was another term that I was not familiar with, but now that I'm

on this discussion board I totally get it!

Here's what Kathi Stringer wrote on the borderlinepersonalitytoday board: Fleas

________________________________

One non suggested that acquiring borderline behavior is similar to an analogy of

fleas jumping from one person to another. That post-non black & white thinking

stems from a flea that jumped from the borderline onto the non. While this rings

true, I've noticed that when a group of some angry nons form a clan, the fleas

began to breed and it becomes an epidemic. The nons are now infecting themselves

along with any new members that are seeking help. As I mentioned, some of the

new and long term nons wrote to me off-list since they were afraid to join in on

the conversation fearing any comment that wasn't split-bad would be seen as

weak. In a non's words, " I'm writing to you off-list since I'm afraid of being

jumped by the other non's " It seems they are afraid of flea bites from the angry

clan. I don't blame them. I don't see the sense in breeding fleas since there is

no use for them.

________________________________________

I just share that because I almost dropped off this board because of an attack

that came from another person on here... It's hard to remember that we're all a

bit injured (in here especially). I just don't know if I'm strong enough to

stay in this discussion board if it's all about rewounding vs. PROGRESS! I've

made a LOT of progress in the time that I've been away from this discussion

board. I just hope I can maintain the positive momentum in spite of the fleas

jumping in here... A penny for your THOUGHTS?

BTW - Love the " Hello Dolly " reference! I rather enjoy that my parents named me

and there's a lovely song to go with it. My father's aunt was Dolly and he

adored her!

I was going to try and be witty and respond with some Doug song, but I fell

short. In researching, I did find the following...

http://www.yellowtailrecords.com/lyrics/lyr_doug.html

The Internet is loaded with information! Wow!

[Guest guest]

Thank you for the thorough response, Doug. That's what I needed to know. I

have a much better understanding now.

And yep, I've got plenty o' experience in this area!

I used to be convinced that I was the crazy one. My nada is VERY SMART and VERY

MANIPULATIVE so I was sure she had remembered the past much more accurately.

Geesh! Where were you guys about 15 years ago? I needed you a LONG time ago!

Doug ~ Do you find that a great deal of the experiences shared on here are

problem oriented? I researched " fleas " yesterday and was interested by what I

read... " Fleas " was another term that I was not familiar with, but now that I'm

on this discussion board I totally get it!

Here's what Kathi Stringer wrote on the borderlinepersonalitytoday board: Fleas

________________________________

One non suggested that acquiring borderline behavior is similar to an analogy of

fleas jumping from one person to another. That post-non black & white thinking

stems from a flea that jumped from the borderline onto the non. While this rings

true, I've noticed that when a group of some angry nons form a clan, the fleas

began to breed and it becomes an epidemic. The nons are now infecting themselves

along with any new members that are seeking help. As I mentioned, some of the

new and long term nons wrote to me off-list since they were afraid to join in on

the conversation fearing any comment that wasn't split-bad would be seen as

weak. In a non's words, " I'm writing to you off-list since I'm afraid of being

jumped by the other non's " It seems they are afraid of flea bites from the angry

clan. I don't blame them. I don't see the sense in breeding fleas since there is

no use for them.

________________________________________

I just share that because I almost dropped off this board because of an attack

that came from another person on here... It's hard to remember that we're all a

bit injured (in here especially). I just don't know if I'm strong enough to

stay in this discussion board if it's all about rewounding vs. PROGRESS! I've

made a LOT of progress in the time that I've been away from this discussion

board. I just hope I can maintain the positive momentum in spite of the fleas

jumping in here... A penny for your THOUGHTS?

BTW - Love the " Hello Dolly " reference! I rather enjoy that my parents named me

and there's a lovely song to go with it. My father's aunt was Dolly and he

adored her!

I was going to try and be witty and respond with some Doug song, but I fell

short. In researching, I did find the following...

http://www.yellowtailrecords.com/lyrics/lyr_doug.html

The Internet is loaded with information! Wow!

[Guest guest]

Thank you for the thorough response, Doug. That's what I needed to know. I

have a much better understanding now.

And yep, I've got plenty o' experience in this area!

I used to be convinced that I was the crazy one. My nada is VERY SMART and VERY

MANIPULATIVE so I was sure she had remembered the past much more accurately.

Geesh! Where were you guys about 15 years ago? I needed you a LONG time ago!

Doug ~ Do you find that a great deal of the experiences shared on here are

problem oriented? I researched " fleas " yesterday and was interested by what I

read... " Fleas " was another term that I was not familiar with, but now that I'm

on this discussion board I totally get it!

Here's what Kathi Stringer wrote on the borderlinepersonalitytoday board: Fleas

________________________________

One non suggested that acquiring borderline behavior is similar to an analogy of

fleas jumping from one person to another. That post-non black & white thinking

stems from a flea that jumped from the borderline onto the non. While this rings

true, I've noticed that when a group of some angry nons form a clan, the fleas

began to breed and it becomes an epidemic. The nons are now infecting themselves

along with any new members that are seeking help. As I mentioned, some of the

new and long term nons wrote to me off-list since they were afraid to join in on

the conversation fearing any comment that wasn't split-bad would be seen as

weak. In a non's words, " I'm writing to you off-list since I'm afraid of being

jumped by the other non's " It seems they are afraid of flea bites from the angry

clan. I don't blame them. I don't see the sense in breeding fleas since there is

no use for them.

________________________________________

I just share that because I almost dropped off this board because of an attack

that came from another person on here... It's hard to remember that we're all a

bit injured (in here especially). I just don't know if I'm strong enough to

stay in this discussion board if it's all about rewounding vs. PROGRESS! I've

made a LOT of progress in the time that I've been away from this discussion

board. I just hope I can maintain the positive momentum in spite of the fleas

jumping in here... A penny for your THOUGHTS?

BTW - Love the " Hello Dolly " reference! I rather enjoy that my parents named me

and there's a lovely song to go with it. My father's aunt was Dolly and he

adored her!

I was going to try and be witty and respond with some Doug song, but I fell

short. In researching, I did find the following...

http://www.yellowtailrecords.com/lyrics/lyr_doug.html

The Internet is loaded with information! Wow!

[Guest guest]

Dolly, there should be NO rewounding on this board !!! NO ONE should be

attacking any one else for any reason !! we are all here for one reason, to

share our experiences and to heal . I am very sorry and saddened to hear

you were attacked by someone. I have read your posts, and dont understand

why anyone would have attacked you.

Jackie

________________________________________

I just share that because I almost dropped off this board because of an

attack that came from another person on here... It's hard to remember that

we're all a bit injured (in here especially). I just don't know if I'm

strong enough to stay in this discussion board if it's all about rewounding

vs. PROGRESS! I've made a LOT of progress in the time that I've been away

from this discussion board. I just hope I can maintain the positive

momentum in spite of the fleas jumping in here... A penny for your THOUGHTS?

[Guest guest]

I second what Jackie says. We largely police ourselves in terms of

appropriate conduct on here, but I don t read each and every single

post. If the thread is not of interest, I go to one that is, so I may

have missed that.

But we do not harass or berate each other. I would encourage you, and

the person who attacked you, to look to the left under files, and click

on our guidlines. These are the rules of conduct we agree to as we

participate in this group. Starting with, the golden rule.

If you are attacked , don t resond , but you are always free to forward

the post or personal email to the group admin.

Think of it as being in kindergarten. Hands to yourself, play nice,

share, and boys please stop peeing in the sandbox.

Doug

>

> Dolly, there should be NO rewounding on this board !!! NO ONE should

be

> attacking any one else for any reason !! we are all here for one

reason, to

> share our experiences and to heal . I am very sorry and saddened to

hear

> you were attacked by someone. I have read your posts, and dont

understand

> why anyone would have attacked you.

>

> Jackie

>

>

>

>

>

> ________________________________________

> I just share that because I almost dropped off this board because of

an

> attack that came from another person on here... It's hard to remember

that

> we're all a bit injured (in here especially). I just don't know if I'm

> strong enough to stay in this discussion board if it's all about

rewounding

> vs. PROGRESS! I've made a LOT of progress in the time that I've been

away

> from this discussion board. I just hope I can maintain the positive

> momentum in spite of the fleas jumping in here... A penny for your

THOUGHTS?

>

[Guest guest]

I second what Jackie says. We largely police ourselves in terms of

appropriate conduct on here, but I don t read each and every single

post. If the thread is not of interest, I go to one that is, so I may

have missed that.

But we do not harass or berate each other. I would encourage you, and

the person who attacked you, to look to the left under files, and click

on our guidlines. These are the rules of conduct we agree to as we

participate in this group. Starting with, the golden rule.

If you are attacked , don t resond , but you are always free to forward

the post or personal email to the group admin.

Think of it as being in kindergarten. Hands to yourself, play nice,

share, and boys please stop peeing in the sandbox.

Doug

>

> Dolly, there should be NO rewounding on this board !!! NO ONE should

be

> attacking any one else for any reason !! we are all here for one

reason, to

> share our experiences and to heal . I am very sorry and saddened to

hear

> you were attacked by someone. I have read your posts, and dont

understand

> why anyone would have attacked you.

>

> Jackie

>

>

>

>

>

> ________________________________________

> I just share that because I almost dropped off this board because of

an

> attack that came from another person on here... It's hard to remember

that

> we're all a bit injured (in here especially). I just don't know if I'm

> strong enough to stay in this discussion board if it's all about

rewounding

> vs. PROGRESS! I've made a LOT of progress in the time that I've been

away

> from this discussion board. I just hope I can maintain the positive

> momentum in spite of the fleas jumping in here... A penny for your

THOUGHTS?

>

[Guest guest]

I second what Jackie says. We largely police ourselves in terms of

appropriate conduct on here, but I don t read each and every single

post. If the thread is not of interest, I go to one that is, so I may

have missed that.

But we do not harass or berate each other. I would encourage you, and

the person who attacked you, to look to the left under files, and click

on our guidlines. These are the rules of conduct we agree to as we

participate in this group. Starting with, the golden rule.

If you are attacked , don t resond , but you are always free to forward

the post or personal email to the group admin.

Think of it as being in kindergarten. Hands to yourself, play nice,

share, and boys please stop peeing in the sandbox.

Doug

>

> Dolly, there should be NO rewounding on this board !!! NO ONE should

be

> attacking any one else for any reason !! we are all here for one

reason, to

> share our experiences and to heal . I am very sorry and saddened to

hear

> you were attacked by someone. I have read your posts, and dont

understand

> why anyone would have attacked you.

>

> Jackie

>

>

>

>

>

> ________________________________________

> I just share that because I almost dropped off this board because of

an

> attack that came from another person on here... It's hard to remember

that

> we're all a bit injured (in here especially). I just don't know if I'm

> strong enough to stay in this discussion board if it's all about

rewounding

> vs. PROGRESS! I've made a LOT of progress in the time that I've been

away

> from this discussion board. I just hope I can maintain the positive

> momentum in spite of the fleas jumping in here... A penny for your

THOUGHTS?

>

[Guest guest]

Funny - Doug (re: no peeing in the sandbox)

Thank you Jackie & Doug for responding

I did indeed review the guidelines. I will do what I can to stay on my own side

of the street.

It's just hard for me to see so much negativity. Perhaps this is my own

filtering problem?

Not everyone is where I am in my spiritual journey.

All I am responsible for is my own actions & reactions.

Golden Rule

Love & Tolerance

Ok - gotcha

I think I can!

I think I can!

I think I can!

Have a great day!

I'm off to prom with hundreds of high school students this evenening! So, the

kindergarten rules sure will help me through this event. Hands to yourself!!!!

(Funny!)

> >

> > Dolly, there should be NO rewounding on this board !!! NO ONE should

> be

> > attacking any one else for any reason !! we are all here for one

> reason, to

> > share our experiences and to heal . I am very sorry and saddened to

> hear

> > you were attacked by someone. I have read your posts, and dont

> understand

> > why anyone would have attacked you.

> >

> > Jackie

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > ________________________________________

> > I just share that because I almost dropped off this board because of

> an

> > attack that came from another person on here... It's hard to remember

> that

> > we're all a bit injured (in here especially). I just don't know if I'm

> > strong enough to stay in this discussion board if it's all about

> rewounding

> > vs. PROGRESS! I've made a LOT of progress in the time that I've been

> away

> > from this discussion board. I just hope I can maintain the positive

> > momentum in spite of the fleas jumping in here... A penny for your

> THOUGHTS?

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Funny - Doug (re: no peeing in the sandbox)

Thank you Jackie & Doug for responding

I did indeed review the guidelines. I will do what I can to stay on my own side

of the street.

It's just hard for me to see so much negativity. Perhaps this is my own

filtering problem?

Not everyone is where I am in my spiritual journey.

All I am responsible for is my own actions & reactions.

Golden Rule

Love & Tolerance

Ok - gotcha

I think I can!

I think I can!

I think I can!

Have a great day!

I'm off to prom with hundreds of high school students this evenening! So, the

kindergarten rules sure will help me through this event. Hands to yourself!!!!

(Funny!)

> >

> > Dolly, there should be NO rewounding on this board !!! NO ONE should

> be

> > attacking any one else for any reason !! we are all here for one

> reason, to

> > share our experiences and to heal . I am very sorry and saddened to

> hear

> > you were attacked by someone. I have read your posts, and dont

> understand

> > why anyone would have attacked you.

> >

> > Jackie

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > ________________________________________

> > I just share that because I almost dropped off this board because of

> an

> > attack that came from another person on here... It's hard to remember

> that

> > we're all a bit injured (in here especially). I just don't know if I'm

> > strong enough to stay in this discussion board if it's all about

> rewounding

> > vs. PROGRESS! I've made a LOT of progress in the time that I've been

> away

> > from this discussion board. I just hope I can maintain the positive

> > momentum in spite of the fleas jumping in here... A penny for your

> THOUGHTS?

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Funny - Doug (re: no peeing in the sandbox)

Thank you Jackie & Doug for responding

I did indeed review the guidelines. I will do what I can to stay on my own side

of the street.

It's just hard for me to see so much negativity. Perhaps this is my own

filtering problem?

Not everyone is where I am in my spiritual journey.

All I am responsible for is my own actions & reactions.

Golden Rule

Love & Tolerance

Ok - gotcha

I think I can!

I think I can!

I think I can!

Have a great day!

I'm off to prom with hundreds of high school students this evenening! So, the

kindergarten rules sure will help me through this event. Hands to yourself!!!!

(Funny!)

> >

> > Dolly, there should be NO rewounding on this board !!! NO ONE should

> be

> > attacking any one else for any reason !! we are all here for one

> reason, to

> > share our experiences and to heal . I am very sorry and saddened to

> hear

> > you were attacked by someone. I have read your posts, and dont

> understand

> > why anyone would have attacked you.

> >

> > Jackie

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > ________________________________________

> > I just share that because I almost dropped off this board because of

> an

> > attack that came from another person on here... It's hard to remember

> that

> > we're all a bit injured (in here especially). I just don't know if I'm

> > strong enough to stay in this discussion board if it's all about

> rewounding

> > vs. PROGRESS! I've made a LOT of progress in the time that I've been

> away

> > from this discussion board. I just hope I can maintain the positive

> > momentum in spite of the fleas jumping in here... A penny for your

> THOUGHTS?

> >

>

[Guest guest]

We are all about healing. Fleas are a part of our existance, but as we

see them and recognize them, we work to try and get past them. We may,

among ourselves, gently point out when we see one.

We do a lot of discussion that is problem oriented. I find that a great

deal of this comes from the fact that for so very much of our lives, our

pains and problems are not validated, by nada, or foo, or even

therapists. Here, as we share a problem or pain, we get a huge

validation of Ah Ha! Others lived it too. Suddenly another VERY SMART

person hears our story and says, YES! Wow! Me too!

And yes, we all needed this a LONG time ago. But we have it now. And it

is a part of our healing. There IS a lot of anger, and even rage among

us. We had it built up inside us for a long time. We have to learn to

be gentle with ourselves, and with one another. Some of the anger comes

out , at times, in hearing any of the positive.

There were positives for most of us. Unlike our BP s, we can come to

see that there are shades of gray. Not everything is all black and

white. Certainly no person is black or white, good or evil. In the

worst, there is a spark of good. In the best, there are feet of clay. I

dont have to invalidate everything about my mom and her life in order to

say she was a very sick woman, and her BPD caused me grave harm and

wounding.

She made great fudge!

May we all heal!

Doug

>

> Thank you for the thorough response, Doug. That's what I needed to

know. I have a much better understanding now.

>

> And yep, I've got plenty o' experience in this area!

>

> I used to be convinced that I was the crazy one. My nada is VERY SMART

and VERY MANIPULATIVE so I was sure she had remembered the past much

more accurately. Geesh! Where were you guys about 15 years ago? I needed

you a LONG time ago!

>

> Doug ~ Do you find that a great deal of the experiences shared on here

are problem oriented? I researched " fleas " yesterday and was interested

by what I read... " Fleas " was another term that I was not familiar with,

but now that I'm on this discussion board I totally get it!

>

> Here's what Kathi Stringer wrote on the borderlinepersonalitytoday

board: Fleas ________________________________

> One non suggested that acquiring borderline behavior is similar to an

analogy of fleas jumping from one person to another. That post-non black

& white thinking stems from a flea that jumped from the borderline onto

the non. While this rings true, I've noticed that when a group of some

angry nons form a clan, the fleas began to breed and it becomes an

epidemic. The nons are now infecting themselves along with any new

members that are seeking help. As I mentioned, some of the new and long

term nons wrote to me off-list since they were afraid to join in on the

conversation fearing any comment that wasn't split-bad would be seen as

weak. In a non's words, " I'm writing to you off-list since I'm afraid of

being jumped by the other non's " It seems they are afraid of flea bites

from the angry clan. I don't blame them. I don't see the sense in

breeding fleas since there is no use for them.

> ________________________________________

> I just share that because I almost dropped off this board because of

an attack that came from another person on here... It's hard to remember

that we're all a bit injured (in here especially). I just don't know if

I'm strong enough to stay in this discussion board if it's all about

rewounding vs. PROGRESS! I've made a LOT of progress in the time that

I've been away from this discussion board. I just hope I can maintain

the positive momentum in spite of the fleas jumping in here... A penny

for your THOUGHTS?

>

>

> BTW - Love the " Hello Dolly " reference! I rather enjoy that my parents

named me and there's a lovely song to go with it. My father's aunt was

Dolly and he adored her!

>

> I was going to try and be witty and respond with some Doug song, but I

fell short. In researching, I did find the following...

> http://www.yellowtailrecords.com/lyrics/lyr_doug.html

>

> The Internet is loaded with information! Wow!

>

[Guest guest]

LOL well put :-)

Jackie

I second what Jackie says. We largely police ourselves in terms of

appropriate conduct on here, but I don t read each and every single

post. If the thread is not of interest, I go to one that is, so I may

have missed that.

But we do not harass or berate each other. I would encourage you, and

the person who attacked you, to look to the left under files, and click

on our guidlines. These are the rules of conduct we agree to as we

participate in this group. Starting with, the golden rule.

If you are attacked , don t resond , but you are always free to forward

the post or personal email to the group admin.

Think of it as being in kindergarten. Hands to yourself, play nice,

share, and boys please stop peeing in the sandbox.

Doug

[Guest guest]

LOL well put :-)

Jackie

I second what Jackie says. We largely police ourselves in terms of

appropriate conduct on here, but I don t read each and every single

post. If the thread is not of interest, I go to one that is, so I may

have missed that.

But we do not harass or berate each other. I would encourage you, and

the person who attacked you, to look to the left under files, and click

on our guidlines. These are the rules of conduct we agree to as we

participate in this group. Starting with, the golden rule.

If you are attacked , don t resond , but you are always free to forward

the post or personal email to the group admin.

Think of it as being in kindergarten. Hands to yourself, play nice,

share, and boys please stop peeing in the sandbox.

Doug

[Guest guest]

did you inherit this fudge making ability ?? I've really had strong

cravings for fudge or brownies :-)

Jackie

We are all about healing. Fleas are a part of our existance, but as we

see them and recognize them, we work to try and get past them. We may,

among ourselves, gently point out when we see one.

We do a lot of discussion that is problem oriented. I find that a great

deal of this comes from the fact that for so very much of our lives, our

pains and problems are not validated, by nada, or foo, or even

therapists. Here, as we share a problem or pain, we get a huge

validation of Ah Ha! Others lived it too. Suddenly another VERY SMART

person hears our story and says, YES! Wow! Me too!

And yes, we all needed this a LONG time ago. But we have it now. And it

is a part of our healing. There IS a lot of anger, and even rage among

us. We had it built up inside us for a long time. We have to learn to

be gentle with ourselves, and with one another. Some of the anger comes

out , at times, in hearing any of the positive.

There were positives for most of us. Unlike our BP s, we can come to

see that there are shades of gray. Not everything is all black and

white. Certainly no person is black or white, good or evil. In the

worst, there is a spark of good. In the best, there are feet of clay. I

dont have to invalidate everything about my mom and her life in order to

say she was a very sick woman, and her BPD caused me grave harm and

wounding.

She made great fudge!

May we all heal!

Doug

[Guest guest]

exactly...eveyone heals at different speeds, and you may very well be

further along than others :-) have fun and no peeing in the sand box ( even

though you're a girl!)

Jackie

Funny - Doug (re: no peeing in the sandbox)

Thank you Jackie & Doug for responding

I did indeed review the guidelines. I will do what I can to stay on my own

side of the street.

It's just hard for me to see so much negativity. Perhaps this is my own

filtering problem?

Not everyone is where I am in my spiritual journey.

All I am responsible for is my own actions & reactions.

Golden Rule

Love & Tolerance

Ok - gotcha

I think I can!

I think I can!

I think I can!

Have a great day!

I'm off to prom with hundreds of high school students this evenening! So,

the kindergarten rules sure will help me through this event. Hands to

yourself!!!! (Funny!)

[Guest guest]

exactly...eveyone heals at different speeds, and you may very well be

further along than others :-) have fun and no peeing in the sand box ( even

though you're a girl!)

Jackie

Funny - Doug (re: no peeing in the sandbox)

Thank you Jackie & Doug for responding

I did indeed review the guidelines. I will do what I can to stay on my own

side of the street.

It's just hard for me to see so much negativity. Perhaps this is my own

filtering problem?

Not everyone is where I am in my spiritual journey.

All I am responsible for is my own actions & reactions.

Golden Rule

Love & Tolerance

Ok - gotcha

I think I can!

I think I can!

I think I can!

Have a great day!

I'm off to prom with hundreds of high school students this evenening! So,

the kindergarten rules sure will help me through this event. Hands to

yourself!!!! (Funny!)

[Guest guest]

Hi Dolly,

You reminded me of my favorite childhood book: The Little Train That Could. She

pulled the heavy cars over the mountain when the other train broke or something,

all along saying: I think I can, I think I can, until she was saying: I know I

can, I know I can!

~patricia

Re: gaslighting

Funny - Doug (re: no peeing in the sandbox)

Thank you Jackie & Doug for responding

I did indeed review the guidelines. I will do what I can to stay on my own

side of the street.

It's just hard for me to see so much negativity. Perhaps this is my own

filtering problem?

Not everyone is where I am in my spiritual journey.

All I am responsible for is my own actions & reactions.

Golden Rule

Love & Tolerance

Ok - gotcha

I think I can!

I think I can!

I think I can!

Have a great day!

I'm off to prom with hundreds of high school students this evenening! So, the

kindergarten rules sure will help me through this event. Hands to yourself!!!!

(Funny!)

> >

> > Dolly, there should be NO rewounding on this board !!! NO ONE should

> be

> > attacking any one else for any reason !! we are all here for one

> reason, to

> > share our experiences and to heal . I am very sorry and saddened to

> hear

> > you were attacked by someone. I have read your posts, and dont

> understand

> > why anyone would have attacked you.

> >

> > Jackie

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > ________________________________________

> > I just share that because I almost dropped off this board because of

> an

> > attack that came from another person on here... It's hard to remember

> that

> > we're all a bit injured (in here especially). I just don't know if I'm

> > strong enough to stay in this discussion board if it's all about

> rewounding

> > vs. PROGRESS! I've made a LOT of progress in the time that I've been

> away

> > from this discussion board. I just hope I can maintain the positive

> > momentum in spite of the fleas jumping in here... A penny for your

> THOUGHTS?

> >

>

------------------------------------

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SEND HER ANY POSTS THAT CONCERN YOU; DO NOT Respond ON THE GROUP.

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() for your copy. We also refer to " Understanding the Borderline

Mother " (Lawson) and " Surviving the Borderline Parent, " (Roth) which you can

find at any bookstore. Welcome to the WTO community!

From Randi Kreger, Owner BPDCentral, WTO Online Community and author SWOE and

the SWOE Workbook.

[Guest guest]

Wow, ~

That's a lot said there...

I'm sorry you're experiencing this and having trouble with the doctors. What

about a patient advocate? Or, perhaps you can write a letter of explanation to

your primary doctor letting him/her know who you've seen, their procedures,

assessments, etc. Then you can identify your pain on number scale and identify

how that has or has not changed over the time of your recovery?!?!?!

It probably doesn't help that you're going through emotional pain in conjunction

with the physical aspet and you're not able to get out and be active, like you'd

prefer. That causes its own ball of wax.

Whatever happened to a primary care physician being responsible for advocating

for their patient? Nowadays the PCP is the least paid and most over-worked in

the profession. They have to send you to specialists because they're not

licensed to do the special procedures of other doctors... Sad

You've got to be the one expressing your needs to all of your doctors. And

there are a number of times you have to be adamant and persistent in your

communication.

Keep trudging, !

I'll be praying for your pain to decrease and the medical professionals to get

their act together.

You're not alone. Keep talking about this and asking for help. Please don't

shut down and/or give up on what you need.

Hugs,

Dolly

>

> I'm sorry you're not feeling well, I know how pain can make one

> depressed...I have severe arthritis in my knees, and pain in the backs of

> my thigh muscles...meds only help to a point :-( I'm sorry your drs dont

> seem to be able ( or want to) help you...thats rough !!

>

>

> Jackie

>

>

>

> Hi ,

> Thank you for your compassion about my pain/injury. I had a fall at work on

> my left butt and then I work in this sort of left facing way, bending and

> lifting. It has loosened my S-I joint which is not supposed to move. First

> I went to my doctor, he sent me to the chiropractor and I went there for

> weeks, then to a specialist (first back to the doctor). That specialist

> prescribed P/T for twelve visits. I had a trip planned in between that, and

> when I got back I went to four visits and then they said: oh that is all you

> are covered for. Went back to specialist she gives me a shot (no x-ray) and

> says come back. But she also says: well what do you want me to do? She

> won't give me a no-working note. Why? And why ask me what do I want her to

> do? Meanwhile dealing with workers comp insurance, getting approvals etc.

>

> I go away and shot doesn't work come back and dr says; I don't know what to

> do for you. We can do an MRI because your x-rays are fine. Am *I* the

> doctor? Have I studied for years this stuff? Am *I* the only one who has

> unrelenting pain because of work? She tells me I should find another job.

> I said: what? Am I supposed to leave a job where I have a claim (I would

> lose my claim if I leave, there is a protocol); limp away? To what?

> Another job that aggravates my sacrum but can get no workers comp or

> insurance or time off with pay?

> How out of touch can these people be?

>

> I went back to my dr and he sends me (for some reason as the last resort??)

> to a spine specialist. This guy explains to me exactly what is wrong and

> why I need an injection with an x-ray. I am so grateful to finally

> understand what is wrong with me, why the brace I had before did not work,

> etc. Finally relieved to have a plan. So I call his reception to give

> information for insurance approval and asked for pain medication because the

> night before I was dying in pain. And I am alone here, no one to massage my

> legs and butt area where it hurts so bad. Ibuprofen doesn't work. I make

> the mistake of saying alcohol helps it.

>

> So I am taking a nap and the phone goes off and I answer because of all

> these insurance and dr calls i have out. The new dr says: I don't

> understand why you are asking me for painkillers, like, why now? You have

> had this injury since june of 09. You've seen me one time and you are

> asking me now? (his concern of course is that I am using him to get

> narcotics and then going t my reg dr saying my script ran out and can i get

> more).

>

> Well he does not know me at all! And I was like a deer in headlights. I

> asked myself: why now? And I couldn't articulate that I felt like I was

> finally with the right doctor who could help me get a hold on this really

> painful condition. That I normally tolerate pain and endure a lot of pain

> (probably sounds familiar to a lot of people here). How could I tell him

> that I am having a hard time managing EVERYthing in my life because I am

> going through intense complicated grief at the same time and this pain is

> wearing me down?

>

> All while he is having this weird accusing tone? When he was so nice in the

> office. He says: don't take ibuprofen it could cause bleeding in the

> stomach. And alcohol is bad too. I will call your dr and ask him. He

> calls back later and leaves a message saying: your doctor said no.

> You should talk to him. I call my dr's nurse and she says: he says you

> should talk to your actual primary dr. (Who is usually not easy to get into

> see because he started another practice doing laser). WTF!! Talk about

> triggering issues of pain not being taken care of!

>

> My pain, as a child, was never never addressed. I had some accidents and

> was never held and shushhed. My father (the non emotional one) always took

> me to the dr or hospital for stitches. Our dentist did not use novacaine on

> us. I have a huge avoidance to dental work now. Even though I need it.

> Even if just a cleaning.

> And now, here I am suffering and they are acting like I am a druggie. My

> sister died from that!

>

> My reaction is to go into victim, sad mode. Poor me. But I have people

> encouraging me to get mad and demand help (these are guys). But I will say

> something when I get my shot; I have this fear that he won't help me now.

> It has added to my stress in life in a way I did not need at all.

>

> Sorry this is long; i probably am repeating myself. But I just can't

> believe it! (Although when I went to the gynecologist and told her that I

> feel during PMS i am almost suicidal, which is not normal; normally I am

> just bitchy, she looked at me blankly. She said: I can put you on the pill

> but only for three years (til 50); and I don't do well with the pill at all,

> it makes me depressed. She mentioned antidepressants (drs must be glad to

> be able to go to that and send you away) and pretty much left the room)

>

> I really can understand now what my sister went through with her doctor

> situation; the judgments they had, the unwillingness to understand her life

> and how to really help her. Ironically, I have barely done drugs in my

> life. I drink now at night, because it is the only thing that helps my

> sadness and pain, the ONLY thing. I have one, maybe two drinks. That is

> it. I live alone, have incredible grief, have a child who needs help in

> school but is being

> refused (illegally in my opinion) and I have bad pain in the area of my body

> that keeps me from doing what usually helps me which is hiking and dancing.

> (Dr told me the only thing I could do is tread water...pay ten dollars a

> shot to go in a pool somewhere...where I don't know to tread water)

>

> I want to get into Public Health because I want to help people in a way that

> actually helps. But maybe I should educate doctors ...I wonder if that is

> an aspect of public health that I could get hired for....

> Now there is an idea!

> If you read this long, thank you

> ~patricia

>

[Guest guest]

Hi ~

I cannot figure out why so much bad stuff seems to keep coming round in my life!

I mean some of it is my own fault (when I don't have my boundaries or don't

plan) but in other ways it's just things that happen. The main thing for me is

that I live too isolated, because otherwise I think I could handle it all

better.

I thought that doctor who asked me: what do you want me to do? was ridiculous!

She would not give me a note to be out of work and I have no idea why. I

explained to her that they are cutting people's hours at my job and no one is

going to switch jobs with me! That would mean to switch schedules etc, it just

is not practical. Plus I cannot stand for a shift at this point either. I get

so bitter some times; I feel the world is so different than it used to be, but

maybe I am wrong. There is such a separation between those with something like

a good paying job and those who work at the level I do.

I did not get an MRI. I think if the shots do not work that would be something

to do.

The thing with me is that I am not the type to lay around injured; I like to be

active; I am ready to mentally move onto the next thing. But emotionally, no, I

guess. And anything physical I do I pay for later. I am nervous because I know

I cannot keep doing this job and I don't know what to do instead since I want to

go back to school, not get locked into another low-end job.

You are so right about being triggered by that other doctor with the drug thing.

Me, who never has really done drugs except pot in my teen years. And of course

you can't get into all that on the phone or even in person! Then I got scared

that he would not treat me with the shots!

I will tell you that I have learned, in the past few years, something important.

And that is that we cannot assume anything about people's lives and what they

are feeling and what they *should* be doing. When my sister was dying, I had

people (who knew her, even a close friend of mine) say: she made her choices (to

drink, do drugs etc). But they did not know the pain she struggled with and her

weakness in life. This lesson is something that has sunk way into me. I get

mad when other people tell me that they have the same situation as I do, and

they are fine (like my son with ADD and he is late to school all the time and

the email I get about it, I say: My son has ADD and is on stimulant medication

and cannot sleep til late, so he has a hard time getting up. She says: My son

has ADD too, and he can get to school on time.)

Sorry to hear of your menstrual pain and I know how that whole trip goes with

the gynecologists...even female ones. Yeah, it is either hormone pills or

antidepressants, but try to get a painkiller! What is this! The thing with the

suicidal feelings..started in the past two years, coinciding with my father's

death, but most definitely in conjunction with PMS. Once I bleed I feel relief

mentally (although these days...), but yes, despondency is a good word. I feel

the joy of my life has been leaked away. I am convinced it is hormonal; I read

Suzanne Sommers book on bio-identical hormones and I want to try them; the trick

is trying to find an affordable treatment plan. I called someone in the back of

her book in CA, and the whole process had to be about 15,000 dollars!! It made

me mad that she offered this new idea of help for women but it is so expensive

that most women cannot do it.

My regular gynecologist gave me the 'blank stare' when I mentioned it. She

measured my hormones and said: They are normal. No sign of menopause. But they

are normal for pre-menopause! Normal for making me feel like crap most of the

time.

I am not sure how I will deal with the spine guy. I am getting shots hopefully

this Wednesday and supposedly it helps pretty quickly so I may not even have to

address getting painkillers. However I will have to find a way to say something

to him that I did not understand his reaction to my request. And put it on him.

Rather than on me to explain myself.

But for this weekend...well what can I do? It is always like this on the

weekend..pain happens, toothaches, etc.

I will check out Bromelain; and I have taken the glucosamine/chond. But I get

out of the habit of pill taking.

Thanks for your thoughts, and reading through my seemingly endless trials here.

I feel like I have a black cloud over my head, I really do. I can't even stand

to see people around me enjoying themselves because I feel so aimless and

miserable. I can't even see the vision of my future, of things changing. I

am not saying they won't or I won't figure it out but right now it is difficult.

I guess I am resisting this grief over losing my sister because I know how long

it took me to just feel somewhat normal after losing my father; and my sister

was such a bigger loss to me.

You are right, though, enough! I think I have to stop accepting shit from

people for one thing.

And maybe figure out one tiny little enjoyable thing for myself otherwise.

Thanks,

~patricia

Re: gaslighting

Good Lord,,you have had WAY more than your fair share of sh*t

happening

This crap with not being covered for the amount of therapy you need

(like the P/T) is criminal neglect by the insurance company,it really is.And

then these buck passing incompetents who call themselves " physicians " ...The one

with the x-ray-less shot is beyond the pale: then *she* asks *you* what do you

want me to do???

Did you ever get an MRI anywhere,by the way,to check your state of

ligament/tissue damage?

As if just changing your job is going to heal chronic pain? How out of

touch can they be? Heads up their asses out of touch!I have a friend who was

injured on the job (resulting in nerve damage to her foot) and she goes through

similar messes.I'm really sorry you got injured like that--why??? Why did that

have to happen to you on top of everything else????

I'd say I can't believe it--but unfortunately I can--that the spine

specialist would jump to such massively wrong conclusions about you and the

reasons why you need pain relief.Of course that was extremely triggering and

really insulting,to be thought of as a druggie.If you've had this injury since

June of 09 and you're STILL needing to see a doctor because it's still hurting

you,I'd guess you've had enough time and treatment to realize you need better

pain relief,which is all you were asking for.But this guy seems to only see the

world as it exists from the end of his own nose--instead he asks you why are you

asking for this now? As if *you* had only just thought of it? I guess you told

his reception that the night before you were dying in pain?

It's weird--and not cool--isn't it how unless someone actually

experiences the pain that most of the time hearing another person say they are

dying of it means so little to them? Apparently all that person you spoke to

heard was you saying that alcohol helps--evidence to me too of a small and

negative mind (the person you spoke to) who would latch onto that and use *that*

as their petty little " ah ha " instead of having the empathetic sense to think:

Oh my,she said the pain is so bad she is resorting to alcohol to medicate

it...*after* you said that Ibuprofen doesn't work...

Well,that's the first thing I would have thought because I did have

horrendous pain for TEN MONTHS last year when I kept getting my period almost

continuously.It felt like my insides were being scraped out with razor

blades,but tell anyone who hasn't experienced the same and they think you're

just gilding the lily.I felt like I needed morphine,not that I expected to be

prescribed any.Nothing really took the edge off of that pain either but

alcohol.Just enough to make it passingly bearable,but now if anyone says they're

having to medicate chronic pain with alcohol my first thought is: Damn,you must

really be in pain...

And I can relate to getting overwhelmed with everything you're going

through and have been through and not knowing how to even speak of it when a

doctor is judging/accusing you and your pain and what you're saying you need.

I guess he said to you not to take Ibuprofen because of your

" drinking " .Gawd.Jumping to conclusions again because in fact he has no idea,no

clue.It sucks to have to really watch what you say,even innocently.And it's hard

to do that when you're in alot of pain,I know.You just want RELIEF.

And then,after he judges and insults your character,the buck passing

begins: I will not be responsible,ask him...I will not be responsible either,ask

him...I will not be...

(As an aside,that was amazing what you said about your dentist.Not in

a good way,but...what is up with FOOs who have the same dysfunctional family

structure?? My ex wife's childhood dentist never gave them novocaine either and

she had huge dentist avoidance issues,too.Just weird--do these families all go

to the same dentist?? Do they choose a dentist for the same reasons?? Because

hers was in France but he sounds like the same frigging guy!)

Anyway.Oh,about the gynecologist.Yeah,all most of them can seem to

offer is birth control pills,crazy pills or hysterectomies.Remedies for the

hysteric.I was offered birth control pills for my constant periods--like I'd

really need them! Or a D & C or a hysterectomy.When they couldn't find anything

physically wrong with me,it was " it must be psychological " ,so here,have some

anti-depressants.And no,I'm not ready to get rid of my inner feminine

parts,thank you.I ended up having to do research on my own.

When did you start having those suicidal like symptoms with your

periods? Recently,or has it been happening since at least your thirties? Does it

start about two days before your period or once you start bleeding?

I ask because I've had that too since my mid thirties,this bizarre

sudden despondency.I know what it is,so I know I'm not REALLY suicidal,it's from

my period.But it's very unpleasant.For me,it comes on once bleeding begins and

is caused by a big drop in my progesterone levels.If birth control pills make

you depressed,it might be because that extra load of estrogen is too much for

your system to handle because you already have systemic estrogen dominance and

low progesterone,which might be causing those awful blues.That can only be

determined for sure by having your hormone levels checked.Most gynecologists

don't bother to do that--or don't even know about it--but some do.They can

measure your hormone levels through your cycle and then determine if you need

supplemental progesterone to balance you out.Not synthetic HRT,but bio-identical

supplement which is much safer.I know you have alot on your plate but if this is

really bothering you too and affecting your quality of life you can do a google

search with " bio-identical hormones/gynecologists/your state " and that should

bring up local gynecologists who do the hormone testing.

About the spine specialist...so now after all that run around,it

transpires that according to your insurance *he* is the only one who can

prescribe a pain med to you? So,I guess what else can you do but make an

appointment to speak to him? Since you can't live like this,with this pain,and

you certainly should not have to.

I guess you'll have to tell him: I requested pain medication because

after living with this condition for ten months,I simply need to have my chronic

pain alleviated enough to allow me to live with some degree of comfort.Let's

discuss the treatment I have had and why it hasn't remedied my chronic pain.If

you have pain management options to offer me that I haven't tried,I am

listening.I have been using moderate amounts of alcohol in a desperate attempt

to relieve my pain and am not an alcohlic.In fact,I would prefer to use

something else to manage my pain,which is so severe and debilitating at this

point that I thought pain meds would be the only thing that could help me.I was

very satisfied with my initial consultation with you and with your explanations

and felt that I was in good hands with you.I am open to your recommendations but

we need to discuss a plan to get my pain under control as it has simply become

unmanagable at this point,after enduring it for ten months.

Something like that...Another thing: do you take glucosamine and

chondroitin for your joints? And extra Vitamin C? Have you ever tried Bromelain

Max for your joint/tissue pain? I have an older friend who uses these,he has a

chronic back condition but I don't think it's S-I Joint pain.These do help

him,though.Bromelain is a pineapple enzyme that reduces pain and inflammation

but promotes healing because it doesn't just stop the inflammation like

cortisone,it also aids in tissue repair.It costs about 8-12 bucks for a bottle

of 60 capsules.You can get it at a health food store.You just can't take it if

you're on blood thinners but it doesn't react with other medication.Just

something that could reduce some of the pain until you can get a doctor to

prescribe something for you.Tossing out ideas because I know how horrible it is

to be in pain and to have to *wait* for a physician to do something about it.

I like your Public Health idea IF the National Health Care Bill

ever passes for real and actually means anything,you might be able to finangle a

" cutting out the deadwood and promoting efficient health care service " job out

of such a degree.It's funny: people can study Industrial Psychology but I wonder

if there is a sub speciality in Medical Psychology...since much of what happens

when people don't receive proper medical care seems to depend on the physician's

psychological biases or on the medical " system " itself being so hierarchical in

a paternalistic, " sages (doctors) vs sinners (patients) " kind of way.With the

twain not meeting at times when the stakes are life or death,so a Public Health

professional would most definitely have a functon to serve there.

Take care and again I'm sorry you're going through all of

this.Enough already,I say!!!!

>

> Hi ,

> Thank you for your compassion about my pain/injury. I had a fall at work on

my left butt and then I work in this sort of left facing way, bending and

lifting. It has loosened my S-I joint which is not supposed to move. First I

went to my doctor, he sent me to the chiropractor and I went there for weeks,

then to a specialist (first back to the doctor). That specialist prescribed P/T

for twelve visits. I had a trip planned in between that, and when I got back I

went to four visits and then they said: oh that is all you are covered for.

Went back to specialist she gives me a shot (no x-ray) and says come back. But

she also says: well what do you want me to do? She won't give me a no-working

note. Why? And why ask me what do I want her to do? Meanwhile dealing with

workers comp insurance, getting approvals etc.

>

> I go away and shot doesn't work come back and dr says; I don't know what to

do for you. We can do an MRI because your x-rays are fine. Am *I* the doctor?

Have I studied for years this stuff? Am *I* the only one who has unrelenting

pain because of work? She tells me I should find another job. I said: what?

Am I supposed to leave a job where I have a claim (I would lose my claim if I

leave, there is a protocol); limp away? To what? Another job that aggravates

my sacrum but can get no workers comp or insurance or time off with pay?

> How out of touch can these people be?

>

> I went back to my dr and he sends me (for some reason as the last resort??)

to a spine specialist. This guy explains to me exactly what is wrong and why I

need an injection with an x-ray. I am so grateful to finally understand what is

wrong with me, why the brace I had before did not work, etc. Finally relieved

to have a plan. So I call his reception to give information for insurance

approval and asked for pain medication because the night before I was dying in

pain. And I am alone here, no one to massage my legs and butt area where it

hurts so bad. Ibuprofen doesn't work. I make the mistake of saying alcohol

helps it.

>

> So I am taking a nap and the phone goes off and I answer because of all

these insurance and dr calls i have out. The new dr says: I don't understand

why you are asking me for painkillers, like, why now? You have had this injury

since june of 09. You've seen me one time and you are asking me now? (his

concern of course is that I am using him to get narcotics and then going t my

reg dr saying my script ran out and can i get more).

>

> Well he does not know me at all! And I was like a deer in headlights. I

asked myself: why now? And I couldn't articulate that I felt like I was finally

with the right doctor who could help me get a hold on this really painful

condition. That I normally tolerate pain and endure a lot of pain (probably

sounds familiar to a lot of people here). How could I tell him that I am having

a hard time managing EVERYthing in my life because I am going through intense

complicated grief at the same time and this pain is wearing me down?

>

> All while he is having this weird accusing tone? When he was so nice in the

office. He says: don't take ibuprofen it could cause bleeding in the stomach.

And alcohol is bad too. I will call your dr and ask him. He calls back later

and leaves a message saying: your doctor said no.

> You should talk to him. I call my dr's nurse and she says: he says you

should talk to your actual primary dr. (Who is usually not easy to get into see

because he started another practice doing laser). WTF!! Talk about triggering

issues of pain not being taken care of!

>

> My pain, as a child, was never never addressed. I had some accidents and

was never held and shushhed. My father (the non emotional one) always took me

to the dr or hospital for stitches. Our dentist did not use novacaine on us. I

have a huge avoidance to dental work now. Even though I need it. Even if just

a cleaning.

> And now, here I am suffering and they are acting like I am a druggie. My

sister died from that!

>

> My reaction is to go into victim, sad mode. Poor me. But I have people

encouraging me to get mad and demand help (these are guys). But I will say

something when I get my shot; I have this fear that he won't help me now. It

has added to my stress in life in a way I did not need at all.

>

> Sorry this is long; i probably am repeating myself. But I just can't

believe it! (Although when I went to the gynecologist and told her that I feel

during PMS i am almost suicidal, which is not normal; normally I am just bitchy,

she looked at me blankly. She said: I can put you on the pill but only for

three years (til 50); and I don't do well with the pill at all, it makes me

depressed. She mentioned antidepressants (drs must be glad to be able to go to

that and send you away) and pretty much left the room)

>

> I really can understand now what my sister went through with her doctor

situation; the judgments they had, the unwillingness to understand her life and

how to really help her. Ironically, I have barely done drugs in my life. I

drink now at night, because it is the only thing that helps my sadness and pain,

the ONLY thing. I have one, maybe two drinks. That is it. I live alone, have

incredible grief, have a child who needs help in school but is being

> refused (illegally in my opinion) and I have bad pain in the area of my body

that keeps me from doing what usually helps me which is hiking and dancing. (Dr

told me the only thing I could do is tread water...pay ten dollars a shot to go

in a pool somewhere...where I don't know to tread water)

>

> I want to get into Public Health because I want to help people in a way that

actually helps. But maybe I should educate doctors ...I wonder if that is an

aspect of public health that I could get hired for....

> Now there is an idea!

> If you read this long, thank you

> ~patricia

>

>

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From Randi Kreger, Owner BPDCentral, WTO Online Community and author SWOE and

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[Guest guest]

Hi ~

I cannot figure out why so much bad stuff seems to keep coming round in my life!

I mean some of it is my own fault (when I don't have my boundaries or don't

plan) but in other ways it's just things that happen. The main thing for me is

that I live too isolated, because otherwise I think I could handle it all

better.

I thought that doctor who asked me: what do you want me to do? was ridiculous!

She would not give me a note to be out of work and I have no idea why. I

explained to her that they are cutting people's hours at my job and no one is

going to switch jobs with me! That would mean to switch schedules etc, it just

is not practical. Plus I cannot stand for a shift at this point either. I get

so bitter some times; I feel the world is so different than it used to be, but

maybe I am wrong. There is such a separation between those with something like

a good paying job and those who work at the level I do.

I did not get an MRI. I think if the shots do not work that would be something

to do.

The thing with me is that I am not the type to lay around injured; I like to be

active; I am ready to mentally move onto the next thing. But emotionally, no, I

guess. And anything physical I do I pay for later. I am nervous because I know

I cannot keep doing this job and I don't know what to do instead since I want to

go back to school, not get locked into another low-end job.

You are so right about being triggered by that other doctor with the drug thing.

Me, who never has really done drugs except pot in my teen years. And of course

you can't get into all that on the phone or even in person! Then I got scared

that he would not treat me with the shots!

I will tell you that I have learned, in the past few years, something important.

And that is that we cannot assume anything about people's lives and what they

are feeling and what they *should* be doing. When my sister was dying, I had

people (who knew her, even a close friend of mine) say: she made her choices (to

drink, do drugs etc). But they did not know the pain she struggled with and her

weakness in life. This lesson is something that has sunk way into me. I get

mad when other people tell me that they have the same situation as I do, and

they are fine (like my son with ADD and he is late to school all the time and

the email I get about it, I say: My son has ADD and is on stimulant medication

and cannot sleep til late, so he has a hard time getting up. She says: My son

has ADD too, and he can get to school on time.)

Sorry to hear of your menstrual pain and I know how that whole trip goes with

the gynecologists...even female ones. Yeah, it is either hormone pills or

antidepressants, but try to get a painkiller! What is this! The thing with the

suicidal feelings..started in the past two years, coinciding with my father's

death, but most definitely in conjunction with PMS. Once I bleed I feel relief

mentally (although these days...), but yes, despondency is a good word. I feel

the joy of my life has been leaked away. I am convinced it is hormonal; I read

Suzanne Sommers book on bio-identical hormones and I want to try them; the trick

is trying to find an affordable treatment plan. I called someone in the back of

her book in CA, and the whole process had to be about 15,000 dollars!! It made

me mad that she offered this new idea of help for women but it is so expensive

that most women cannot do it.

My regular gynecologist gave me the 'blank stare' when I mentioned it. She

measured my hormones and said: They are normal. No sign of menopause. But they

are normal for pre-menopause! Normal for making me feel like crap most of the

time.

I am not sure how I will deal with the spine guy. I am getting shots hopefully

this Wednesday and supposedly it helps pretty quickly so I may not even have to

address getting painkillers. However I will have to find a way to say something

to him that I did not understand his reaction to my request. And put it on him.

Rather than on me to explain myself.

But for this weekend...well what can I do? It is always like this on the

weekend..pain happens, toothaches, etc.

I will check out Bromelain; and I have taken the glucosamine/chond. But I get

out of the habit of pill taking.

Thanks for your thoughts, and reading through my seemingly endless trials here.

I feel like I have a black cloud over my head, I really do. I can't even stand

to see people around me enjoying themselves because I feel so aimless and

miserable. I can't even see the vision of my future, of things changing. I

am not saying they won't or I won't figure it out but right now it is difficult.

I guess I am resisting this grief over losing my sister because I know how long

it took me to just feel somewhat normal after losing my father; and my sister

was such a bigger loss to me.

You are right, though, enough! I think I have to stop accepting shit from

people for one thing.

And maybe figure out one tiny little enjoyable thing for myself otherwise.

Thanks,

~patricia

Re: gaslighting

Good Lord,,you have had WAY more than your fair share of sh*t

happening

This crap with not being covered for the amount of therapy you need

(like the P/T) is criminal neglect by the insurance company,it really is.And

then these buck passing incompetents who call themselves " physicians " ...The one

with the x-ray-less shot is beyond the pale: then *she* asks *you* what do you

want me to do???

Did you ever get an MRI anywhere,by the way,to check your state of

ligament/tissue damage?

As if just changing your job is going to heal chronic pain? How out of

touch can they be? Heads up their asses out of touch!I have a friend who was

injured on the job (resulting in nerve damage to her foot) and she goes through

similar messes.I'm really sorry you got injured like that--why??? Why did that

have to happen to you on top of everything else????

I'd say I can't believe it--but unfortunately I can--that the spine

specialist would jump to such massively wrong conclusions about you and the

reasons why you need pain relief.Of course that was extremely triggering and

really insulting,to be thought of as a druggie.If you've had this injury since

June of 09 and you're STILL needing to see a doctor because it's still hurting

you,I'd guess you've had enough time and treatment to realize you need better

pain relief,which is all you were asking for.But this guy seems to only see the

world as it exists from the end of his own nose--instead he asks you why are you

asking for this now? As if *you* had only just thought of it? I guess you told

his reception that the night before you were dying in pain?

It's weird--and not cool--isn't it how unless someone actually

experiences the pain that most of the time hearing another person say they are

dying of it means so little to them? Apparently all that person you spoke to

heard was you saying that alcohol helps--evidence to me too of a small and

negative mind (the person you spoke to) who would latch onto that and use *that*

as their petty little " ah ha " instead of having the empathetic sense to think:

Oh my,she said the pain is so bad she is resorting to alcohol to medicate

it...*after* you said that Ibuprofen doesn't work...

Well,that's the first thing I would have thought because I did have

horrendous pain for TEN MONTHS last year when I kept getting my period almost

continuously.It felt like my insides were being scraped out with razor

blades,but tell anyone who hasn't experienced the same and they think you're

just gilding the lily.I felt like I needed morphine,not that I expected to be

prescribed any.Nothing really took the edge off of that pain either but

alcohol.Just enough to make it passingly bearable,but now if anyone says they're

having to medicate chronic pain with alcohol my first thought is: Damn,you must

really be in pain...

And I can relate to getting overwhelmed with everything you're going

through and have been through and not knowing how to even speak of it when a

doctor is judging/accusing you and your pain and what you're saying you need.

I guess he said to you not to take Ibuprofen because of your

" drinking " .Gawd.Jumping to conclusions again because in fact he has no idea,no

clue.It sucks to have to really watch what you say,even innocently.And it's hard

to do that when you're in alot of pain,I know.You just want RELIEF.

And then,after he judges and insults your character,the buck passing

begins: I will not be responsible,ask him...I will not be responsible either,ask

him...I will not be...

(As an aside,that was amazing what you said about your dentist.Not in

a good way,but...what is up with FOOs who have the same dysfunctional family

structure?? My ex wife's childhood dentist never gave them novocaine either and

she had huge dentist avoidance issues,too.Just weird--do these families all go

to the same dentist?? Do they choose a dentist for the same reasons?? Because

hers was in France but he sounds like the same frigging guy!)

Anyway.Oh,about the gynecologist.Yeah,all most of them can seem to

offer is birth control pills,crazy pills or hysterectomies.Remedies for the

hysteric.I was offered birth control pills for my constant periods--like I'd

really need them! Or a D & C or a hysterectomy.When they couldn't find anything

physically wrong with me,it was " it must be psychological " ,so here,have some

anti-depressants.And no,I'm not ready to get rid of my inner feminine

parts,thank you.I ended up having to do research on my own.

When did you start having those suicidal like symptoms with your

periods? Recently,or has it been happening since at least your thirties? Does it

start about two days before your period or once you start bleeding?

I ask because I've had that too since my mid thirties,this bizarre

sudden despondency.I know what it is,so I know I'm not REALLY suicidal,it's from

my period.But it's very unpleasant.For me,it comes on once bleeding begins and

is caused by a big drop in my progesterone levels.If birth control pills make

you depressed,it might be because that extra load of estrogen is too much for

your system to handle because you already have systemic estrogen dominance and

low progesterone,which might be causing those awful blues.That can only be

determined for sure by having your hormone levels checked.Most gynecologists

don't bother to do that--or don't even know about it--but some do.They can

measure your hormone levels through your cycle and then determine if you need

supplemental progesterone to balance you out.Not synthetic HRT,but bio-identical

supplement which is much safer.I know you have alot on your plate but if this is

really bothering you too and affecting your quality of life you can do a google

search with " bio-identical hormones/gynecologists/your state " and that should

bring up local gynecologists who do the hormone testing.

About the spine specialist...so now after all that run around,it

transpires that according to your insurance *he* is the only one who can

prescribe a pain med to you? So,I guess what else can you do but make an

appointment to speak to him? Since you can't live like this,with this pain,and

you certainly should not have to.

I guess you'll have to tell him: I requested pain medication because

after living with this condition for ten months,I simply need to have my chronic

pain alleviated enough to allow me to live with some degree of comfort.Let's

discuss the treatment I have had and why it hasn't remedied my chronic pain.If

you have pain management options to offer me that I haven't tried,I am

listening.I have been using moderate amounts of alcohol in a desperate attempt

to relieve my pain and am not an alcohlic.In fact,I would prefer to use

something else to manage my pain,which is so severe and debilitating at this

point that I thought pain meds would be the only thing that could help me.I was

very satisfied with my initial consultation with you and with your explanations

and felt that I was in good hands with you.I am open to your recommendations but

we need to discuss a plan to get my pain under control as it has simply become

unmanagable at this point,after enduring it for ten months.

Something like that...Another thing: do you take glucosamine and

chondroitin for your joints? And extra Vitamin C? Have you ever tried Bromelain

Max for your joint/tissue pain? I have an older friend who uses these,he has a

chronic back condition but I don't think it's S-I Joint pain.These do help

him,though.Bromelain is a pineapple enzyme that reduces pain and inflammation

but promotes healing because it doesn't just stop the inflammation like

cortisone,it also aids in tissue repair.It costs about 8-12 bucks for a bottle

of 60 capsules.You can get it at a health food store.You just can't take it if

you're on blood thinners but it doesn't react with other medication.Just

something that could reduce some of the pain until you can get a doctor to

prescribe something for you.Tossing out ideas because I know how horrible it is

to be in pain and to have to *wait* for a physician to do something about it.

I like your Public Health idea IF the National Health Care Bill

ever passes for real and actually means anything,you might be able to finangle a

" cutting out the deadwood and promoting efficient health care service " job out

of such a degree.It's funny: people can study Industrial Psychology but I wonder

if there is a sub speciality in Medical Psychology...since much of what happens

when people don't receive proper medical care seems to depend on the physician's

psychological biases or on the medical " system " itself being so hierarchical in

a paternalistic, " sages (doctors) vs sinners (patients) " kind of way.With the

twain not meeting at times when the stakes are life or death,so a Public Health

professional would most definitely have a functon to serve there.

Take care and again I'm sorry you're going through all of

this.Enough already,I say!!!!

>

> Hi ,

> Thank you for your compassion about my pain/injury. I had a fall at work on

my left butt and then I work in this sort of left facing way, bending and

lifting. It has loosened my S-I joint which is not supposed to move. First I

went to my doctor, he sent me to the chiropractor and I went there for weeks,

then to a specialist (first back to the doctor). That specialist prescribed P/T

for twelve visits. I had a trip planned in between that, and when I got back I

went to four visits and then they said: oh that is all you are covered for.

Went back to specialist she gives me a shot (no x-ray) and says come back. But

she also says: well what do you want me to do? She won't give me a no-working

note. Why? And why ask me what do I want her to do? Meanwhile dealing with

workers comp insurance, getting approvals etc.

>

> I go away and shot doesn't work come back and dr says; I don't know what to

do for you. We can do an MRI because your x-rays are fine. Am *I* the doctor?

Have I studied for years this stuff? Am *I* the only one who has unrelenting

pain because of work? She tells me I should find another job. I said: what?

Am I supposed to leave a job where I have a claim (I would lose my claim if I

leave, there is a protocol); limp away? To what? Another job that aggravates

my sacrum but can get no workers comp or insurance or time off with pay?

> How out of touch can these people be?

>

> I went back to my dr and he sends me (for some reason as the last resort??)

to a spine specialist. This guy explains to me exactly what is wrong and why I

need an injection with an x-ray. I am so grateful to finally understand what is

wrong with me, why the brace I had before did not work, etc. Finally relieved

to have a plan. So I call his reception to give information for insurance

approval and asked for pain medication because the night before I was dying in

pain. And I am alone here, no one to massage my legs and butt area where it

hurts so bad. Ibuprofen doesn't work. I make the mistake of saying alcohol

helps it.

>

> So I am taking a nap and the phone goes off and I answer because of all

these insurance and dr calls i have out. The new dr says: I don't understand

why you are asking me for painkillers, like, why now? You have had this injury

since june of 09. You've seen me one time and you are asking me now? (his

concern of course is that I am using him to get narcotics and then going t my

reg dr saying my script ran out and can i get more).

>

> Well he does not know me at all! And I was like a deer in headlights. I

asked myself: why now? And I couldn't articulate that I felt like I was finally

with the right doctor who could help me get a hold on this really painful

condition. That I normally tolerate pain and endure a lot of pain (probably

sounds familiar to a lot of people here). How could I tell him that I am having

a hard time managing EVERYthing in my life because I am going through intense

complicated grief at the same time and this pain is wearing me down?

>

> All while he is having this weird accusing tone? When he was so nice in the

office. He says: don't take ibuprofen it could cause bleeding in the stomach.

And alcohol is bad too. I will call your dr and ask him. He calls back later

and leaves a message saying: your doctor said no.

> You should talk to him. I call my dr's nurse and she says: he says you

should talk to your actual primary dr. (Who is usually not easy to get into see

because he started another practice doing laser). WTF!! Talk about triggering

issues of pain not being taken care of!

>

> My pain, as a child, was never never addressed. I had some accidents and

was never held and shushhed. My father (the non emotional one) always took me

to the dr or hospital for stitches. Our dentist did not use novacaine on us. I

have a huge avoidance to dental work now. Even though I need it. Even if just

a cleaning.

> And now, here I am suffering and they are acting like I am a druggie. My

sister died from that!

>

> My reaction is to go into victim, sad mode. Poor me. But I have people

encouraging me to get mad and demand help (these are guys). But I will say

something when I get my shot; I have this fear that he won't help me now. It

has added to my stress in life in a way I did not need at all.

>

> Sorry this is long; i probably am repeating myself. But I just can't

believe it! (Although when I went to the gynecologist and told her that I feel

during PMS i am almost suicidal, which is not normal; normally I am just bitchy,

she looked at me blankly. She said: I can put you on the pill but only for

three years (til 50); and I don't do well with the pill at all, it makes me

depressed. She mentioned antidepressants (drs must be glad to be able to go to

that and send you away) and pretty much left the room)

>

> I really can understand now what my sister went through with her doctor

situation; the judgments they had, the unwillingness to understand her life and

how to really help her. Ironically, I have barely done drugs in my life. I

drink now at night, because it is the only thing that helps my sadness and pain,

the ONLY thing. I have one, maybe two drinks. That is it. I live alone, have

incredible grief, have a child who needs help in school but is being

> refused (illegally in my opinion) and I have bad pain in the area of my body

that keeps me from doing what usually helps me which is hiking and dancing. (Dr

told me the only thing I could do is tread water...pay ten dollars a shot to go

in a pool somewhere...where I don't know to tread water)

>

> I want to get into Public Health because I want to help people in a way that

actually helps. But maybe I should educate doctors ...I wonder if that is an

aspect of public health that I could get hired for....

> Now there is an idea!

> If you read this long, thank you

> ~patricia

>

>

------------------------------------

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SEND HER ANY POSTS THAT CONCERN YOU; DO NOT Respond ON THE GROUP.

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() for your copy. We also refer to " Understanding the Borderline

Mother " (Lawson) and " Surviving the Borderline Parent, " (Roth) which you can

find at any bookstore. Welcome to the WTO community!

From Randi Kreger, Owner BPDCentral, WTO Online Community and author SWOE and

the SWOE Workbook.

[Guest guest]

Hi ~

I cannot figure out why so much bad stuff seems to keep coming round in my life!

I mean some of it is my own fault (when I don't have my boundaries or don't

plan) but in other ways it's just things that happen. The main thing for me is

that I live too isolated, because otherwise I think I could handle it all

better.

I thought that doctor who asked me: what do you want me to do? was ridiculous!

She would not give me a note to be out of work and I have no idea why. I

explained to her that they are cutting people's hours at my job and no one is

going to switch jobs with me! That would mean to switch schedules etc, it just

is not practical. Plus I cannot stand for a shift at this point either. I get

so bitter some times; I feel the world is so different than it used to be, but

maybe I am wrong. There is such a separation between those with something like

a good paying job and those who work at the level I do.

I did not get an MRI. I think if the shots do not work that would be something

to do.

The thing with me is that I am not the type to lay around injured; I like to be

active; I am ready to mentally move onto the next thing. But emotionally, no, I

guess. And anything physical I do I pay for later. I am nervous because I know

I cannot keep doing this job and I don't know what to do instead since I want to

go back to school, not get locked into another low-end job.

You are so right about being triggered by that other doctor with the drug thing.

Me, who never has really done drugs except pot in my teen years. And of course

you can't get into all that on the phone or even in person! Then I got scared

that he would not treat me with the shots!

I will tell you that I have learned, in the past few years, something important.

And that is that we cannot assume anything about people's lives and what they

are feeling and what they *should* be doing. When my sister was dying, I had

people (who knew her, even a close friend of mine) say: she made her choices (to

drink, do drugs etc). But they did not know the pain she struggled with and her

weakness in life. This lesson is something that has sunk way into me. I get

mad when other people tell me that they have the same situation as I do, and

they are fine (like my son with ADD and he is late to school all the time and

the email I get about it, I say: My son has ADD and is on stimulant medication

and cannot sleep til late, so he has a hard time getting up. She says: My son

has ADD too, and he can get to school on time.)

Sorry to hear of your menstrual pain and I know how that whole trip goes with

the gynecologists...even female ones. Yeah, it is either hormone pills or

antidepressants, but try to get a painkiller! What is this! The thing with the

suicidal feelings..started in the past two years, coinciding with my father's

death, but most definitely in conjunction with PMS. Once I bleed I feel relief

mentally (although these days...), but yes, despondency is a good word. I feel

the joy of my life has been leaked away. I am convinced it is hormonal; I read

Suzanne Sommers book on bio-identical hormones and I want to try them; the trick

is trying to find an affordable treatment plan. I called someone in the back of

her book in CA, and the whole process had to be about 15,000 dollars!! It made

me mad that she offered this new idea of help for women but it is so expensive

that most women cannot do it.

My regular gynecologist gave me the 'blank stare' when I mentioned it. She

measured my hormones and said: They are normal. No sign of menopause. But they

are normal for pre-menopause! Normal for making me feel like crap most of the

time.

I am not sure how I will deal with the spine guy. I am getting shots hopefully

this Wednesday and supposedly it helps pretty quickly so I may not even have to

address getting painkillers. However I will have to find a way to say something

to him that I did not understand his reaction to my request. And put it on him.

Rather than on me to explain myself.

But for this weekend...well what can I do? It is always like this on the

weekend..pain happens, toothaches, etc.

I will check out Bromelain; and I have taken the glucosamine/chond. But I get

out of the habit of pill taking.

Thanks for your thoughts, and reading through my seemingly endless trials here.

I feel like I have a black cloud over my head, I really do. I can't even stand

to see people around me enjoying themselves because I feel so aimless and

miserable. I can't even see the vision of my future, of things changing. I

am not saying they won't or I won't figure it out but right now it is difficult.

I guess I am resisting this grief over losing my sister because I know how long

it took me to just feel somewhat normal after losing my father; and my sister

was such a bigger loss to me.

You are right, though, enough! I think I have to stop accepting shit from

people for one thing.

And maybe figure out one tiny little enjoyable thing for myself otherwise.

Thanks,

~patricia

Re: gaslighting

Good Lord,,you have had WAY more than your fair share of sh*t

happening

This crap with not being covered for the amount of therapy you need

(like the P/T) is criminal neglect by the insurance company,it really is.And

then these buck passing incompetents who call themselves " physicians " ...The one

with the x-ray-less shot is beyond the pale: then *she* asks *you* what do you

want me to do???

Did you ever get an MRI anywhere,by the way,to check your state of

ligament/tissue damage?

As if just changing your job is going to heal chronic pain? How out of

touch can they be? Heads up their asses out of touch!I have a friend who was

injured on the job (resulting in nerve damage to her foot) and she goes through

similar messes.I'm really sorry you got injured like that--why??? Why did that

have to happen to you on top of everything else????

I'd say I can't believe it--but unfortunately I can--that the spine

specialist would jump to such massively wrong conclusions about you and the

reasons why you need pain relief.Of course that was extremely triggering and

really insulting,to be thought of as a druggie.If you've had this injury since

June of 09 and you're STILL needing to see a doctor because it's still hurting

you,I'd guess you've had enough time and treatment to realize you need better

pain relief,which is all you were asking for.But this guy seems to only see the

world as it exists from the end of his own nose--instead he asks you why are you

asking for this now? As if *you* had only just thought of it? I guess you told

his reception that the night before you were dying in pain?

It's weird--and not cool--isn't it how unless someone actually

experiences the pain that most of the time hearing another person say they are

dying of it means so little to them? Apparently all that person you spoke to

heard was you saying that alcohol helps--evidence to me too of a small and

negative mind (the person you spoke to) who would latch onto that and use *that*

as their petty little " ah ha " instead of having the empathetic sense to think:

Oh my,she said the pain is so bad she is resorting to alcohol to medicate

it...*after* you said that Ibuprofen doesn't work...

Well,that's the first thing I would have thought because I did have

horrendous pain for TEN MONTHS last year when I kept getting my period almost

continuously.It felt like my insides were being scraped out with razor

blades,but tell anyone who hasn't experienced the same and they think you're

just gilding the lily.I felt like I needed morphine,not that I expected to be

prescribed any.Nothing really took the edge off of that pain either but

alcohol.Just enough to make it passingly bearable,but now if anyone says they're

having to medicate chronic pain with alcohol my first thought is: Damn,you must

really be in pain...

And I can relate to getting overwhelmed with everything you're going

through and have been through and not knowing how to even speak of it when a

doctor is judging/accusing you and your pain and what you're saying you need.

I guess he said to you not to take Ibuprofen because of your

" drinking " .Gawd.Jumping to conclusions again because in fact he has no idea,no

clue.It sucks to have to really watch what you say,even innocently.And it's hard

to do that when you're in alot of pain,I know.You just want RELIEF.

And then,after he judges and insults your character,the buck passing

begins: I will not be responsible,ask him...I will not be responsible either,ask

him...I will not be...

(As an aside,that was amazing what you said about your dentist.Not in

a good way,but...what is up with FOOs who have the same dysfunctional family

structure?? My ex wife's childhood dentist never gave them novocaine either and

she had huge dentist avoidance issues,too.Just weird--do these families all go

to the same dentist?? Do they choose a dentist for the same reasons?? Because

hers was in France but he sounds like the same frigging guy!)

Anyway.Oh,about the gynecologist.Yeah,all most of them can seem to

offer is birth control pills,crazy pills or hysterectomies.Remedies for the

hysteric.I was offered birth control pills for my constant periods--like I'd

really need them! Or a D & C or a hysterectomy.When they couldn't find anything

physically wrong with me,it was " it must be psychological " ,so here,have some

anti-depressants.And no,I'm not ready to get rid of my inner feminine

parts,thank you.I ended up having to do research on my own.

When did you start having those suicidal like symptoms with your

periods? Recently,or has it been happening since at least your thirties? Does it

start about two days before your period or once you start bleeding?

I ask because I've had that too since my mid thirties,this bizarre

sudden despondency.I know what it is,so I know I'm not REALLY suicidal,it's from

my period.But it's very unpleasant.For me,it comes on once bleeding begins and

is caused by a big drop in my progesterone levels.If birth control pills make

you depressed,it might be because that extra load of estrogen is too much for

your system to handle because you already have systemic estrogen dominance and

low progesterone,which might be causing those awful blues.That can only be

determined for sure by having your hormone levels checked.Most gynecologists

don't bother to do that--or don't even know about it--but some do.They can

measure your hormone levels through your cycle and then determine if you need

supplemental progesterone to balance you out.Not synthetic HRT,but bio-identical

supplement which is much safer.I know you have alot on your plate but if this is

really bothering you too and affecting your quality of life you can do a google

search with " bio-identical hormones/gynecologists/your state " and that should

bring up local gynecologists who do the hormone testing.

About the spine specialist...so now after all that run around,it

transpires that according to your insurance *he* is the only one who can

prescribe a pain med to you? So,I guess what else can you do but make an

appointment to speak to him? Since you can't live like this,with this pain,and

you certainly should not have to.

I guess you'll have to tell him: I requested pain medication because

after living with this condition for ten months,I simply need to have my chronic

pain alleviated enough to allow me to live with some degree of comfort.Let's

discuss the treatment I have had and why it hasn't remedied my chronic pain.If

you have pain management options to offer me that I haven't tried,I am

listening.I have been using moderate amounts of alcohol in a desperate attempt

to relieve my pain and am not an alcohlic.In fact,I would prefer to use

something else to manage my pain,which is so severe and debilitating at this

point that I thought pain meds would be the only thing that could help me.I was

very satisfied with my initial consultation with you and with your explanations

and felt that I was in good hands with you.I am open to your recommendations but

we need to discuss a plan to get my pain under control as it has simply become

unmanagable at this point,after enduring it for ten months.

Something like that...Another thing: do you take glucosamine and

chondroitin for your joints? And extra Vitamin C? Have you ever tried Bromelain

Max for your joint/tissue pain? I have an older friend who uses these,he has a

chronic back condition but I don't think it's S-I Joint pain.These do help

him,though.Bromelain is a pineapple enzyme that reduces pain and inflammation

but promotes healing because it doesn't just stop the inflammation like

cortisone,it also aids in tissue repair.It costs about 8-12 bucks for a bottle

of 60 capsules.You can get it at a health food store.You just can't take it if

you're on blood thinners but it doesn't react with other medication.Just

something that could reduce some of the pain until you can get a doctor to

prescribe something for you.Tossing out ideas because I know how horrible it is

to be in pain and to have to *wait* for a physician to do something about it.

I like your Public Health idea IF the National Health Care Bill

ever passes for real and actually means anything,you might be able to finangle a

" cutting out the deadwood and promoting efficient health care service " job out

of such a degree.It's funny: people can study Industrial Psychology but I wonder

if there is a sub speciality in Medical Psychology...since much of what happens

when people don't receive proper medical care seems to depend on the physician's

psychological biases or on the medical " system " itself being so hierarchical in

a paternalistic, " sages (doctors) vs sinners (patients) " kind of way.With the

twain not meeting at times when the stakes are life or death,so a Public Health

professional would most definitely have a functon to serve there.

Take care and again I'm sorry you're going through all of

this.Enough already,I say!!!!

>

> Hi ,

> Thank you for your compassion about my pain/injury. I had a fall at work on

my left butt and then I work in this sort of left facing way, bending and

lifting. It has loosened my S-I joint which is not supposed to move. First I

went to my doctor, he sent me to the chiropractor and I went there for weeks,

then to a specialist (first back to the doctor). That specialist prescribed P/T

for twelve visits. I had a trip planned in between that, and when I got back I

went to four visits and then they said: oh that is all you are covered for.

Went back to specialist she gives me a shot (no x-ray) and says come back. But

she also says: well what do you want me to do? She won't give me a no-working

note. Why? And why ask me what do I want her to do? Meanwhile dealing with

workers comp insurance, getting approvals etc.

>

> I go away and shot doesn't work come back and dr says; I don't know what to

do for you. We can do an MRI because your x-rays are fine. Am *I* the doctor?

Have I studied for years this stuff? Am *I* the only one who has unrelenting

pain because of work? She tells me I should find another job. I said: what?

Am I supposed to leave a job where I have a claim (I would lose my claim if I

leave, there is a protocol); limp away? To what? Another job that aggravates

my sacrum but can get no workers comp or insurance or time off with pay?

> How out of touch can these people be?

>

> I went back to my dr and he sends me (for some reason as the last resort??)

to a spine specialist. This guy explains to me exactly what is wrong and why I

need an injection with an x-ray. I am so grateful to finally understand what is

wrong with me, why the brace I had before did not work, etc. Finally relieved

to have a plan. So I call his reception to give information for insurance

approval and asked for pain medication because the night before I was dying in

pain. And I am alone here, no one to massage my legs and butt area where it

hurts so bad. Ibuprofen doesn't work. I make the mistake of saying alcohol

helps it.

>

> So I am taking a nap and the phone goes off and I answer because of all

these insurance and dr calls i have out. The new dr says: I don't understand

why you are asking me for painkillers, like, why now? You have had this injury

since june of 09. You've seen me one time and you are asking me now? (his

concern of course is that I am using him to get narcotics and then going t my

reg dr saying my script ran out and can i get more).

>

> Well he does not know me at all! And I was like a deer in headlights. I

asked myself: why now? And I couldn't articulate that I felt like I was finally

with the right doctor who could help me get a hold on this really painful

condition. That I normally tolerate pain and endure a lot of pain (probably

sounds familiar to a lot of people here). How could I tell him that I am having

a hard time managing EVERYthing in my life because I am going through intense

complicated grief at the same time and this pain is wearing me down?

>

> All while he is having this weird accusing tone? When he was so nice in the

office. He says: don't take ibuprofen it could cause bleeding in the stomach.

And alcohol is bad too. I will call your dr and ask him. He calls back later

and leaves a message saying: your doctor said no.

> You should talk to him. I call my dr's nurse and she says: he says you

should talk to your actual primary dr. (Who is usually not easy to get into see

because he started another practice doing laser). WTF!! Talk about triggering

issues of pain not being taken care of!

>

> My pain, as a child, was never never addressed. I had some accidents and

was never held and shushhed. My father (the non emotional one) always took me

to the dr or hospital for stitches. Our dentist did not use novacaine on us. I

have a huge avoidance to dental work now. Even though I need it. Even if just

a cleaning.

> And now, here I am suffering and they are acting like I am a druggie. My

sister died from that!

>

> My reaction is to go into victim, sad mode. Poor me. But I have people

encouraging me to get mad and demand help (these are guys). But I will say

something when I get my shot; I have this fear that he won't help me now. It

has added to my stress in life in a way I did not need at all.

>

> Sorry this is long; i probably am repeating myself. But I just can't

believe it! (Although when I went to the gynecologist and told her that I feel

during PMS i am almost suicidal, which is not normal; normally I am just bitchy,

she looked at me blankly. She said: I can put you on the pill but only for

three years (til 50); and I don't do well with the pill at all, it makes me

depressed. She mentioned antidepressants (drs must be glad to be able to go to

that and send you away) and pretty much left the room)

>

> I really can understand now what my sister went through with her doctor

situation; the judgments they had, the unwillingness to understand her life and

how to really help her. Ironically, I have barely done drugs in my life. I

drink now at night, because it is the only thing that helps my sadness and pain,

the ONLY thing. I have one, maybe two drinks. That is it. I live alone, have

incredible grief, have a child who needs help in school but is being

> refused (illegally in my opinion) and I have bad pain in the area of my body

that keeps me from doing what usually helps me which is hiking and dancing. (Dr

told me the only thing I could do is tread water...pay ten dollars a shot to go

in a pool somewhere...where I don't know to tread water)

>

> I want to get into Public Health because I want to help people in a way that

actually helps. But maybe I should educate doctors ...I wonder if that is an

aspect of public health that I could get hired for....

> Now there is an idea!

> If you read this long, thank you

> ~patricia

>

>

------------------------------------

Problems? Ask our friendly List Manager for help at @....

SEND HER ANY POSTS THAT CONCERN YOU; DO NOT Respond ON THE GROUP.

To order the KO bible " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " call 888-35-SHELL

() for your copy. We also refer to " Understanding the Borderline

Mother " (Lawson) and " Surviving the Borderline Parent, " (Roth) which you can

find at any bookstore. Welcome to the WTO community!

From Randi Kreger, Owner BPDCentral, WTO Online Community and author SWOE and

the SWOE Workbook.