Re: gaslighting

[Guest guest]

somehow my fada couldn't remember the ways I would adore him as a child. he

now is convinced that I absolutely hate him. I tell friends/relatives that I

don't hate him as a father, I hate his _behavior_.

but I would try to find nice presents for him, as far as my child " budget "

would allow, which were usually boston baked beans, or french peanuts, or

Necco wafers, or something of the ilk. Later when I started working I would

try to find better things...

and he would say thank you, and seem happy, but holidays and birthdays were

always fraught with tension and he was always tense when he said 'thank

you.'

I would go out of my way to help him out, when I was younger. Paint the

house, and I would. Paint the front door. Rip up the flooring in the

kitchen. Pull weeds in the back yard. All sorts of little tasks fada would

give me, and I would do it and as fast and well as I could, because that

would make him happy.

When I started college I was busy, and also I started realizing that I

wasn't getting anything out of helping him. He didn't seem particularly

grateful, if that makes sense. It was more of an obligation, like he would

always reference the Bible about how children should obey their parents. (I

HATED that reading when it was that sunday about obeying your husband and

parents....blech.) I just wasn't getting validated or anything, I guess, so

I started cutting back on that sort of enthusiasm and offering to help a

bunch.

and I think it was that cutting back that led fada to think that I hated

him, and him to disown me.

Interesting topic about gasligthing, thanks Doug.

~Holly

>

>

> helping out...nada and fada always seem to forget all the timea we've

> helped

> them...we have gone up there to paint their house, we have gone up there to

>

> help them through surgery, we have gone up there to bring them a trailer

> full of wood to burn, we have gone up there to participate in awards

> ceremonies ( of course when I'd get one in school, we lived 3 blocks from

> the school and they couldnt be bothered...) we've gone up there to help

> paint the inside of their house, to do hour repairs, etc...but they never

> seem to remember any of thise, always claiming we never have done anything

> for them...they always remember the very few times the golden child helped

> them out...

>

> Jackie

>

>

> What are your most notable and infuriating cases of gaslighting from nada?

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Yeah, this sounds similar; not the same, but yeah...

~patricia

Re: gaslighting

helping out...nada and fada always seem to forget all the timea we've helped

them...we have gone up there to paint their house, we have gone up there to

help them through surgery, we have gone up there to bring them a trailer

full of wood to burn, we have gone up there to participate in awards

ceremonies ( of course when I'd get one in school, we lived 3 blocks from

the school and they couldnt be bothered...) we've gone up there to help

paint the inside of their house, to do hour repairs, etc...but they never

seem to remember any of thise, always claiming we never have done anything

for them...they always remember the very few times the golden child helped

them out...

Jackie

What are your most notable and infuriating cases of gaslighting from nada?

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From Randi Kreger, Owner BPDCentral, WTO Online Community and author SWOE and

the SWOE Workbook.

[Guest guest]

I haven't posted much, so need to lay the groundwork for Nada's most

bizarre gaslighting.

In 2007 she took an overdose which nearly killed her and started her

on the path of dementia. She has recently been moved (by me) into a

nursing home.

While cleaning out her condo to rent I found a notebook of letters she

wrote to my dad after his death in 2004. The final page was her

suicide note.

Clearly these had been left for me to find.

The letters were full of gaslighting and how horrible and neglectful I

am. The most bizarre was a letter telling dad that she hadn't been to

our house at all for the entire year of 2005!

We are great celebrators when it comes to holidays and have parties

for them all. We invite our " waifs and strays " - friends and neighbors

with no family nearby.

Nada was at every one plus a few family only gatherings.

Which apparently she " forgot. "

Of course what would I know - her letters accuse me of abandoning her

so obviously I am a horrible beyotch. (NOT)

Sent from my blueberry.

> What are your most notable and infuriating cases of gaslighting from

> nada?

>

> Mine were

>

> Money. Somehow nada could never recall anytime I gave her money.

>

> She took my dad and uncle to court over money she supposedly didnt

> get in child support. My uncle had paid her out of the business that

> they ran together. Nada insisted that it was her pay from working

> there. Problem? She never worked there a day. I would know, because

> I worked there. But she became convinced that she had recieved those

> checks as a salary. She got really angry at the judge when he called

> her a liar.

>

> She was in nursing school while I was in high school and dropped

> out. We never did find out why. But her story for a while was that

> it was so I could get a cap and gown for graduation. That was

> nonsense, because I was working and could pay for it myself, and my

> dad or any of several uncles would have given me the money had I

> asked. When I argued that story with her, it began to change, and

> then it became that she dropped out to get a job and keep me from

> quitting high school.

> Problem? After she dropped out , she didnt get a job until long

> after I was gone and in the Navy. Also, I never seriously considered

> dropping out, but did tell her once , once mind you, that maybe I

> should do that and work full time to support us, since she had

> squandered her divorce settlement, lost 2 jobs, and didnt seem

> highly motivated to get one. She turned that into a self sacrificing

> gaslight story about how she gave up her career in nursing just to

> keep me in school.

> Of course , how sick is that? 17 year olds should not be the ones

> working to suppoort a 36 yo mother.

>

> The story evolved again after a while till she had dropped out

> because the director of the school had it in for her because I had

> dated but not married her daughter! But we were still in High School

> when all this happened.

>

> And they wonder why we doubt reality.

>

> So, guys. What are your crazy gaslighing stories.

>

> Doug

>

>

[Guest guest]

My nada bawled me out one time because she claimed she hadn't seen me even once

in six months. In reality I had seen her probably a dozen or more times in six

months including, inviting her to my 30th birthday to which she attended and

ruined (I said nothing), I took her out for her birthday including a fancy

dinner, flowers, gift, card, etc. I went shopping with her, she came to

gatherings with my friends, I had dinner at her house, etc, etc. There was

many, many times I saw her.

When I told my friend what nada accused me of my friend exclaimed " I have even

seen your mom lot's in six months! " So there's no way any sane person could

believe nada's story, it was so rediculous.

After that I went extreme LC because I figured if nada already believes that I

don't make time for her when I have bent over backwards entertaining her then

forget it. If LC is already reality for her then why should I bother? I can't

make her see reality anyway, so LC it is. Done and done.

Thanks nada.

P.S. Oddly enough now that LC is actual reality for her she doesn't complain to

me that I don't see her. There's only talk behind my back of how " thinks

she's too good for her family " ..... gossip tidbits passed along to me by my FOO

to gaslight me some more. If only they knew how little I really care now.

[Guest guest]

HFB,I've gotten that " She thinks she's too good for this family " line since I

was a kid! And that " casting pearls before swine " element,too: doing nice things

for them,giving them lovely thoughtful gifts--like how you really treated your

nada on her birthday--only to have them " forget " who gave them the gift (because

it was me) or " forget " what I'd done for them (because it was me).

It made me feel like nothing--worthless--and also as if my best efforts

were just sh*t.But---*that* is how *they* feel (or are): nothing,like their best

efforts are crap.And so I was being made to own that for *them* so they wouldn't

have to admit to *their* own faults and feelings.In a way that went beyond

acting like they didn't appreciate my gifts or whatever I did for them (although

they did that,too)--it was also at times to the extreme of literally erasing the

gift/outting/nice thing right from their minds.As if they couldn't even consider

it in memory because to do so would threaten their own concept of themselves too

much.To the extreme that they had convinced themselves that I never did anything

for them.

And so,much easier on them to accuse me of being the one who thought I

was too good for them--rather than entertain for a second the idea that I might

just be in fact too good for *them*.

Like once when I was in my early twenties I came back from France over

Christmas and brought them gifts I had taken some time to find for them--stuff

that *they* liked and stuff that had they received it from anyone else,they

would have been thrilled over.

One of those gifts was a Limoges tea set I bought for nada.She was into

making tea and the pattern was so *her*,it really was something she'd buy for

herself but wouldn't because it was too indulgent and too expensive.Hence,a gift

in the truest sense.

During my visit,she used the saucers to feed the cats.As if Limoges

porcelain was the same as a common paper plate--a gesture of serious contempt

for me and my gift.Intended that way,too.I was very hurt by this,at the

time.Like I'd been kicked in the gut.

And then later,during my next visit (believe me,I wish now that I'd known

enough to stay away!) she made some comment about having forgotten where she'd

even gotten that tea set.She had obliterated the connection to me right from her

consciousness.

My mistake was in not understanding that my role was to be bad and

worthless and neglectful so *she* could be good and worthy and

terribly,incomprehensibly victimized by me.Being nice to her (being a good

daughter,in fact) was a waste of time--it only made her sick.It never created a

real or healthy or decent relationship between us.For that to happen,she would

have had to realize how she was using me to serve her own ego and to then

realize that it was wrong--something she wasn't going to do.Easier to continue

to sacrifice me than face herself.

Giving her what to me was something of quality that expressed my esteem

and affection for her in gift form,was to her me just being snotty and snobby

like " thinks she's so great " or " What a show off she

is " ...aaarrggghhhh....

I like the way you said: If LC is already reality for her,why should I

bother?

That's a really good sober assessment of the situation.And like you,I

don't care anymore either (kinda like that Phil ' song " I Don't Care

Anymore " lol)...because caring got me nowhere but dissed.

>

> My nada bawled me out one time because she claimed she hadn't seen me even

once in six months. In reality I had seen her probably a dozen or more times in

six months including, inviting her to my 30th birthday to which she attended and

ruined (I said nothing), I took her out for her birthday including a fancy

dinner, flowers, gift, card, etc. I went shopping with her, she came to

gatherings with my friends, I had dinner at her house, etc, etc. There was

many, many times I saw her.

>

> When I told my friend what nada accused me of my friend exclaimed " I have

even seen your mom lot's in six months! " So there's no way any sane person could

believe nada's story, it was so rediculous.

>

> After that I went extreme LC because I figured if nada already believes that I

don't make time for her when I have bent over backwards entertaining her then

forget it. If LC is already reality for her then why should I bother? I can't

make her see reality anyway, so LC it is. Done and done.

>

> Thanks nada.

>

> P.S. Oddly enough now that LC is actual reality for her she doesn't complain

to me that I don't see her. There's only talk behind my back of how "

thinks she's too good for her family " ..... gossip tidbits passed along to me by

my FOO to gaslight me some more. If only they knew how little I really care now.

>

[Guest guest]

Wow this really speaks to me.

" It made me feel like nothing--worthless--and also as if my best efforts were

just sh*t.But---*that* is how *they* feel (or are): nothing,like their best

efforts are crap.And so I was being made to own that for *them* so they wouldn't

have to admit to *their* own faults and feelings.In a way that went beyond

acting like they didn't appreciate my gifts or whatever I did for them (although

they did that,too)--it was also at times to the extreme of literally erasing the

gift/outting/nice thing right from their minds.As if they couldn't even consider

it in memory because to do so would threaten their own concept of themselves too

much.To the extreme that they had convinced themselves that I never did anything

for them. "

I have been going thru this exact thing!!! In my situation it is not so much

that they are convinced that I haven't done anything for them. (Though lately my

nada totally forgot me giving her $1500.00.) It's more that if nada acknowledges

that what I do is a gift, not a requirement or my role in the family, than the

golden child (my BPD sister) is less than golden or possibly more flawed than

she can ever admit. We must never ever talk about how flawed fada or sada is. I

was forever reminded, after my nada abused, ignored, and neglected me how much

he loved me. Even after fada would not speak to me in the years before his

death my nada still reminds me how much he loved me. I now believe that my

relationship with codependant nada was probably more damaging than the

relationship was with my BPD fada. At least fada was a obviously a sad, sick

F***. Nada's damage to me was deeper.

>

>

>

>

> >

> > My nada bawled me out one time because she claimed she hadn't seen me even

once in six months. In reality I had seen her probably a dozen or more times in

six months including, inviting her to my 30th birthday to which she attended and

ruined (I said nothing), I took her out for her birthday including a fancy

dinner, flowers, gift, card, etc. I went shopping with her, she came to

gatherings with my friends, I had dinner at her house, etc, etc. There was

many, many times I saw her.

> >

> > When I told my friend what nada accused me of my friend exclaimed " I have

even seen your mom lot's in six months! " So there's no way any sane person could

believe nada's story, it was so rediculous.

> >

> > After that I went extreme LC because I figured if nada already believes that

I don't make time for her when I have bent over backwards entertaining her then

forget it. If LC is already reality for her then why should I bother? I can't

make her see reality anyway, so LC it is. Done and done.

> >

> > Thanks nada.

> >

> > P.S. Oddly enough now that LC is actual reality for her she doesn't complain

to me that I don't see her. There's only talk behind my back of how "

thinks she's too good for her family " ..... gossip tidbits passed along to me by

my FOO to gaslight me some more. If only they knew how little I really care now.

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Wow this really speaks to me.

" It made me feel like nothing--worthless--and also as if my best efforts were

just sh*t.But---*that* is how *they* feel (or are): nothing,like their best

efforts are crap.And so I was being made to own that for *them* so they wouldn't

have to admit to *their* own faults and feelings.In a way that went beyond

acting like they didn't appreciate my gifts or whatever I did for them (although

they did that,too)--it was also at times to the extreme of literally erasing the

gift/outting/nice thing right from their minds.As if they couldn't even consider

it in memory because to do so would threaten their own concept of themselves too

much.To the extreme that they had convinced themselves that I never did anything

for them. "

I have been going thru this exact thing!!! In my situation it is not so much

that they are convinced that I haven't done anything for them. (Though lately my

nada totally forgot me giving her $1500.00.) It's more that if nada acknowledges

that what I do is a gift, not a requirement or my role in the family, than the

golden child (my BPD sister) is less than golden or possibly more flawed than

she can ever admit. We must never ever talk about how flawed fada or sada is. I

was forever reminded, after my nada abused, ignored, and neglected me how much

he loved me. Even after fada would not speak to me in the years before his

death my nada still reminds me how much he loved me. I now believe that my

relationship with codependant nada was probably more damaging than the

relationship was with my BPD fada. At least fada was a obviously a sad, sick

F***. Nada's damage to me was deeper.

>

>

>

>

> >

> > My nada bawled me out one time because she claimed she hadn't seen me even

once in six months. In reality I had seen her probably a dozen or more times in

six months including, inviting her to my 30th birthday to which she attended and

ruined (I said nothing), I took her out for her birthday including a fancy

dinner, flowers, gift, card, etc. I went shopping with her, she came to

gatherings with my friends, I had dinner at her house, etc, etc. There was

many, many times I saw her.

> >

> > When I told my friend what nada accused me of my friend exclaimed " I have

even seen your mom lot's in six months! " So there's no way any sane person could

believe nada's story, it was so rediculous.

> >

> > After that I went extreme LC because I figured if nada already believes that

I don't make time for her when I have bent over backwards entertaining her then

forget it. If LC is already reality for her then why should I bother? I can't

make her see reality anyway, so LC it is. Done and done.

> >

> > Thanks nada.

> >

> > P.S. Oddly enough now that LC is actual reality for her she doesn't complain

to me that I don't see her. There's only talk behind my back of how "

thinks she's too good for her family " ..... gossip tidbits passed along to me by

my FOO to gaslight me some more. If only they knew how little I really care now.

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Wow, ,

Reading this gave me one of those 'ah ha's where I think maybe I realized that

the reason each of us kids in my family had these seemingly stuck-in-place

behaviors and roles was to boost up my mother's self image. It's not that we

were *great* achievers but more having my brother being 'golden' she could

ignore his obvious flaws (because in her mind, her friend's kids were

super-achievers and we should be more like that, and not talk back, etc etc; of

course those kids were beaten and punished if they didn't do what was expected).

If my sister could be the sweet little girl, dependent on my mom, then that

could keep my mom in that *mother* role; and me being independent and

conscientious could let her have a responsible daughter she could always depend

on. Voila! A well put together family. That could maybe hide the realities.

I was lonely, bullied (including by my brother) and depressed. My sister was

not growing up properly with the ability to learn from her mistakes, and my

brother was self involved and could not ultimately inter-relate say with a woman

with whom he could marry. (or stay married to).

This is why my mom didn't want to hear anything negative, any fighting, any

problems. Nothing. But....it sort of delineated our personalities and kept us

away from each other. Relationships that could have grown over the years

(though I was close to my sister after our teen years). And I am certainly not

leaving my father out of this.

I'm going to have to think about this for awhile to understand what it means to

me now.

What you said about the Limoges....that made me gasp.

And the 'not caring anymore'~ sometimes I make myself hard and 'don't care' But

I think, no, *know* that it is just a fragile cover to caring so much.

thanks for your insights

~patricia

Re: gaslighting

HFB,I've gotten that " She thinks she's too good for this family " line since I

was a kid! And that " casting pearls before swine " element,too: doing nice things

for them,giving them lovely thoughtful gifts--like how you really treated your

nada on her birthday--only to have them " forget " who gave them the gift (because

it was me) or " forget " what I'd done for them (because it was me).

It made me feel like nothing--worthless--and also as if my best

efforts were just sh*t.But---*that* is how *they* feel (or are): nothing,like

their best efforts are crap.And so I was being made to own that for *them* so

they wouldn't have to admit to *their* own faults and feelings.In a way that

went beyond acting like they didn't appreciate my gifts or whatever I did for

them (although they did that,too)--it was also at times to the extreme of

literally erasing the gift/outting/nice thing right from their minds.As if they

couldn't even consider it in memory because to do so would threaten their own

concept of themselves too much.To the extreme that they had convinced themselves

that I never did anything for them.

And so,much easier on them to accuse me of being the one who thought

I was too good for them--rather than entertain for a second the idea that I

might just be in fact too good for *them*.

Like once when I was in my early twenties I came back from France

over Christmas and brought them gifts I had taken some time to find for

them--stuff that *they* liked and stuff that had they received it from anyone

else,they would have been thrilled over.

One of those gifts was a Limoges tea set I bought for nada.She was

into making tea and the pattern was so *her*,it really was something she'd buy

for herself but wouldn't because it was too indulgent and too expensive.Hence,a

gift in the truest sense.

During my visit,she used the saucers to feed the cats.As if Limoges

porcelain was the same as a common paper plate--a gesture of serious contempt

for me and my gift.Intended that way,too.I was very hurt by this,at the

time.Like I'd been kicked in the gut.

And then later,during my next visit (believe me,I wish now that I'd

known enough to stay away!) she made some comment about having forgotten where

she'd even gotten that tea set.She had obliterated the connection to me right

from her consciousness.

My mistake was in not understanding that my role was to be bad and

worthless and neglectful so *she* could be good and worthy and

terribly,incomprehensibly victimized by me.Being nice to her (being a good

daughter,in fact) was a waste of time--it only made her sick.It never created a

real or healthy or decent relationship between us.For that to happen,she would

have had to realize how she was using me to serve her own ego and to then

realize that it was wrong--something she wasn't going to do.Easier to continue

to sacrifice me than face herself.

Giving her what to me was something of quality that expressed my

esteem and affection for her in gift form,was to her me just being snotty and

snobby like " thinks she's so great " or " What a show off she

is " ...aaarrggghhhh....

I like the way you said: If LC is already reality for her,why should I

bother?

That's a really good sober assessment of the situation.And like you,I

don't care anymore either (kinda like that Phil ' song " I Don't Care

Anymore " lol)...because caring got me nowhere but dissed.

>

> My nada bawled me out one time because she claimed she hadn't seen me even

once in six months. In reality I had seen her probably a dozen or more times in

six months including, inviting her to my 30th birthday to which she attended and

ruined (I said nothing), I took her out for her birthday including a fancy

dinner, flowers, gift, card, etc. I went shopping with her, she came to

gatherings with my friends, I had dinner at her house, etc, etc. There was

many, many times I saw her.

>

> When I told my friend what nada accused me of my friend exclaimed " I have

even seen your mom lot's in six months! " So there's no way any sane person could

believe nada's story, it was so rediculous.

>

> After that I went extreme LC because I figured if nada already believes that

I don't make time for her when I have bent over backwards entertaining her then

forget it. If LC is already reality for her then why should I bother? I can't

make her see reality anyway, so LC it is. Done and done.

>

> Thanks nada.

>

> P.S. Oddly enough now that LC is actual reality for her she doesn't complain

to me that I don't see her. There's only talk behind my back of how "

thinks she's too good for her family " ..... gossip tidbits passed along to me by

my FOO to gaslight me some more. If only they knew how little I really care now.

>

------------------------------------

Problems? Ask our friendly List Manager for help at @....

SEND HER ANY POSTS THAT CONCERN YOU; DO NOT Respond ON THE GROUP.

To order the KO bible " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " call 888-35-SHELL

() for your copy. We also refer to " Understanding the Borderline

Mother " (Lawson) and " Surviving the Borderline Parent, " (Roth) which you can

find at any bookstore. Welcome to the WTO community!

From Randi Kreger, Owner BPDCentral, WTO Online Community and author SWOE and

the SWOE Workbook.

[Guest guest]

Wow, ,

Reading this gave me one of those 'ah ha's where I think maybe I realized that

the reason each of us kids in my family had these seemingly stuck-in-place

behaviors and roles was to boost up my mother's self image. It's not that we

were *great* achievers but more having my brother being 'golden' she could

ignore his obvious flaws (because in her mind, her friend's kids were

super-achievers and we should be more like that, and not talk back, etc etc; of

course those kids were beaten and punished if they didn't do what was expected).

If my sister could be the sweet little girl, dependent on my mom, then that

could keep my mom in that *mother* role; and me being independent and

conscientious could let her have a responsible daughter she could always depend

on. Voila! A well put together family. That could maybe hide the realities.

I was lonely, bullied (including by my brother) and depressed. My sister was

not growing up properly with the ability to learn from her mistakes, and my

brother was self involved and could not ultimately inter-relate say with a woman

with whom he could marry. (or stay married to).

This is why my mom didn't want to hear anything negative, any fighting, any

problems. Nothing. But....it sort of delineated our personalities and kept us

away from each other. Relationships that could have grown over the years

(though I was close to my sister after our teen years). And I am certainly not

leaving my father out of this.

I'm going to have to think about this for awhile to understand what it means to

me now.

What you said about the Limoges....that made me gasp.

And the 'not caring anymore'~ sometimes I make myself hard and 'don't care' But

I think, no, *know* that it is just a fragile cover to caring so much.

thanks for your insights

~patricia

Re: gaslighting

HFB,I've gotten that " She thinks she's too good for this family " line since I

was a kid! And that " casting pearls before swine " element,too: doing nice things

for them,giving them lovely thoughtful gifts--like how you really treated your

nada on her birthday--only to have them " forget " who gave them the gift (because

it was me) or " forget " what I'd done for them (because it was me).

It made me feel like nothing--worthless--and also as if my best

efforts were just sh*t.But---*that* is how *they* feel (or are): nothing,like

their best efforts are crap.And so I was being made to own that for *them* so

they wouldn't have to admit to *their* own faults and feelings.In a way that

went beyond acting like they didn't appreciate my gifts or whatever I did for

them (although they did that,too)--it was also at times to the extreme of

literally erasing the gift/outting/nice thing right from their minds.As if they

couldn't even consider it in memory because to do so would threaten their own

concept of themselves too much.To the extreme that they had convinced themselves

that I never did anything for them.

And so,much easier on them to accuse me of being the one who thought

I was too good for them--rather than entertain for a second the idea that I

might just be in fact too good for *them*.

Like once when I was in my early twenties I came back from France

over Christmas and brought them gifts I had taken some time to find for

them--stuff that *they* liked and stuff that had they received it from anyone

else,they would have been thrilled over.

One of those gifts was a Limoges tea set I bought for nada.She was

into making tea and the pattern was so *her*,it really was something she'd buy

for herself but wouldn't because it was too indulgent and too expensive.Hence,a

gift in the truest sense.

During my visit,she used the saucers to feed the cats.As if Limoges

porcelain was the same as a common paper plate--a gesture of serious contempt

for me and my gift.Intended that way,too.I was very hurt by this,at the

time.Like I'd been kicked in the gut.

And then later,during my next visit (believe me,I wish now that I'd

known enough to stay away!) she made some comment about having forgotten where

she'd even gotten that tea set.She had obliterated the connection to me right

from her consciousness.

My mistake was in not understanding that my role was to be bad and

worthless and neglectful so *she* could be good and worthy and

terribly,incomprehensibly victimized by me.Being nice to her (being a good

daughter,in fact) was a waste of time--it only made her sick.It never created a

real or healthy or decent relationship between us.For that to happen,she would

have had to realize how she was using me to serve her own ego and to then

realize that it was wrong--something she wasn't going to do.Easier to continue

to sacrifice me than face herself.

Giving her what to me was something of quality that expressed my

esteem and affection for her in gift form,was to her me just being snotty and

snobby like " thinks she's so great " or " What a show off she

is " ...aaarrggghhhh....

I like the way you said: If LC is already reality for her,why should I

bother?

That's a really good sober assessment of the situation.And like you,I

don't care anymore either (kinda like that Phil ' song " I Don't Care

Anymore " lol)...because caring got me nowhere but dissed.

>

> My nada bawled me out one time because she claimed she hadn't seen me even

once in six months. In reality I had seen her probably a dozen or more times in

six months including, inviting her to my 30th birthday to which she attended and

ruined (I said nothing), I took her out for her birthday including a fancy

dinner, flowers, gift, card, etc. I went shopping with her, she came to

gatherings with my friends, I had dinner at her house, etc, etc. There was

many, many times I saw her.

>

> When I told my friend what nada accused me of my friend exclaimed " I have

even seen your mom lot's in six months! " So there's no way any sane person could

believe nada's story, it was so rediculous.

>

> After that I went extreme LC because I figured if nada already believes that

I don't make time for her when I have bent over backwards entertaining her then

forget it. If LC is already reality for her then why should I bother? I can't

make her see reality anyway, so LC it is. Done and done.

>

> Thanks nada.

>

> P.S. Oddly enough now that LC is actual reality for her she doesn't complain

to me that I don't see her. There's only talk behind my back of how "

thinks she's too good for her family " ..... gossip tidbits passed along to me by

my FOO to gaslight me some more. If only they knew how little I really care now.

>

------------------------------------

Problems? Ask our friendly List Manager for help at @....

SEND HER ANY POSTS THAT CONCERN YOU; DO NOT Respond ON THE GROUP.

To order the KO bible " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " call 888-35-SHELL

() for your copy. We also refer to " Understanding the Borderline

Mother " (Lawson) and " Surviving the Borderline Parent, " (Roth) which you can

find at any bookstore. Welcome to the WTO community!

From Randi Kreger, Owner BPDCentral, WTO Online Community and author SWOE and

the SWOE Workbook.

[Guest guest]

Wow, ,

Reading this gave me one of those 'ah ha's where I think maybe I realized that

the reason each of us kids in my family had these seemingly stuck-in-place

behaviors and roles was to boost up my mother's self image. It's not that we

were *great* achievers but more having my brother being 'golden' she could

ignore his obvious flaws (because in her mind, her friend's kids were

super-achievers and we should be more like that, and not talk back, etc etc; of

course those kids were beaten and punished if they didn't do what was expected).

If my sister could be the sweet little girl, dependent on my mom, then that

could keep my mom in that *mother* role; and me being independent and

conscientious could let her have a responsible daughter she could always depend

on. Voila! A well put together family. That could maybe hide the realities.

I was lonely, bullied (including by my brother) and depressed. My sister was

not growing up properly with the ability to learn from her mistakes, and my

brother was self involved and could not ultimately inter-relate say with a woman

with whom he could marry. (or stay married to).

This is why my mom didn't want to hear anything negative, any fighting, any

problems. Nothing. But....it sort of delineated our personalities and kept us

away from each other. Relationships that could have grown over the years

(though I was close to my sister after our teen years). And I am certainly not

leaving my father out of this.

I'm going to have to think about this for awhile to understand what it means to

me now.

What you said about the Limoges....that made me gasp.

And the 'not caring anymore'~ sometimes I make myself hard and 'don't care' But

I think, no, *know* that it is just a fragile cover to caring so much.

thanks for your insights

~patricia

Re: gaslighting

HFB,I've gotten that " She thinks she's too good for this family " line since I

was a kid! And that " casting pearls before swine " element,too: doing nice things

for them,giving them lovely thoughtful gifts--like how you really treated your

nada on her birthday--only to have them " forget " who gave them the gift (because

it was me) or " forget " what I'd done for them (because it was me).

It made me feel like nothing--worthless--and also as if my best

efforts were just sh*t.But---*that* is how *they* feel (or are): nothing,like

their best efforts are crap.And so I was being made to own that for *them* so

they wouldn't have to admit to *their* own faults and feelings.In a way that

went beyond acting like they didn't appreciate my gifts or whatever I did for

them (although they did that,too)--it was also at times to the extreme of

literally erasing the gift/outting/nice thing right from their minds.As if they

couldn't even consider it in memory because to do so would threaten their own

concept of themselves too much.To the extreme that they had convinced themselves

that I never did anything for them.

And so,much easier on them to accuse me of being the one who thought

I was too good for them--rather than entertain for a second the idea that I

might just be in fact too good for *them*.

Like once when I was in my early twenties I came back from France

over Christmas and brought them gifts I had taken some time to find for

them--stuff that *they* liked and stuff that had they received it from anyone

else,they would have been thrilled over.

One of those gifts was a Limoges tea set I bought for nada.She was

into making tea and the pattern was so *her*,it really was something she'd buy

for herself but wouldn't because it was too indulgent and too expensive.Hence,a

gift in the truest sense.

During my visit,she used the saucers to feed the cats.As if Limoges

porcelain was the same as a common paper plate--a gesture of serious contempt

for me and my gift.Intended that way,too.I was very hurt by this,at the

time.Like I'd been kicked in the gut.

And then later,during my next visit (believe me,I wish now that I'd

known enough to stay away!) she made some comment about having forgotten where

she'd even gotten that tea set.She had obliterated the connection to me right

from her consciousness.

My mistake was in not understanding that my role was to be bad and

worthless and neglectful so *she* could be good and worthy and

terribly,incomprehensibly victimized by me.Being nice to her (being a good

daughter,in fact) was a waste of time--it only made her sick.It never created a

real or healthy or decent relationship between us.For that to happen,she would

have had to realize how she was using me to serve her own ego and to then

realize that it was wrong--something she wasn't going to do.Easier to continue

to sacrifice me than face herself.

Giving her what to me was something of quality that expressed my

esteem and affection for her in gift form,was to her me just being snotty and

snobby like " thinks she's so great " or " What a show off she

is " ...aaarrggghhhh....

I like the way you said: If LC is already reality for her,why should I

bother?

That's a really good sober assessment of the situation.And like you,I

don't care anymore either (kinda like that Phil ' song " I Don't Care

Anymore " lol)...because caring got me nowhere but dissed.

>

> My nada bawled me out one time because she claimed she hadn't seen me even

once in six months. In reality I had seen her probably a dozen or more times in

six months including, inviting her to my 30th birthday to which she attended and

ruined (I said nothing), I took her out for her birthday including a fancy

dinner, flowers, gift, card, etc. I went shopping with her, she came to

gatherings with my friends, I had dinner at her house, etc, etc. There was

many, many times I saw her.

>

> When I told my friend what nada accused me of my friend exclaimed " I have

even seen your mom lot's in six months! " So there's no way any sane person could

believe nada's story, it was so rediculous.

>

> After that I went extreme LC because I figured if nada already believes that

I don't make time for her when I have bent over backwards entertaining her then

forget it. If LC is already reality for her then why should I bother? I can't

make her see reality anyway, so LC it is. Done and done.

>

> Thanks nada.

>

> P.S. Oddly enough now that LC is actual reality for her she doesn't complain

to me that I don't see her. There's only talk behind my back of how "

thinks she's too good for her family " ..... gossip tidbits passed along to me by

my FOO to gaslight me some more. If only they knew how little I really care now.

>

------------------------------------

Problems? Ask our friendly List Manager for help at @....

SEND HER ANY POSTS THAT CONCERN YOU; DO NOT Respond ON THE GROUP.

To order the KO bible " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " call 888-35-SHELL

() for your copy. We also refer to " Understanding the Borderline

Mother " (Lawson) and " Surviving the Borderline Parent, " (Roth) which you can

find at any bookstore. Welcome to the WTO community!

From Randi Kreger, Owner BPDCentral, WTO Online Community and author SWOE and

the SWOE Workbook.

[Guest guest]

Carol,yes,I've had that too: being told by fada (in my case the non BPD) how

much nada (the BPD) loved me as if *none* of the abuse and nastiness ever

existed.Because to admit at all that *any* of it might have been wrong would be

the same as saying nada was flawed.Which was something that could never even be

suggested--instead it was a blind insistence in the opposite direction: that she

was a loving mother.

I know what you mean about how damaging it is.Growing up,I thought of

fada as the " sane " one since in contrast to nada,it seemed like he was.It wasn't

until I was an adult that I understood he was sick,too.But during those

formative years,I was getting pummelled with that denial of reality constantly

by him and although of course our relationship with a mother is different from

our relationship with a father,I identified more with fada--so having the

reality of my experience denied by the parent I identified with and thought of

as the " sane one " (whose perceptions were more valid to me than nada's) was

incredibly damaging.Weirdly,I often felt so sorry for fada--this deep strange

sympathy--instead of feeling compassion for myself.

And what you said about gift giving out of the goodness of your heart

vs doing something because it is our duty or required of us really made me

think.So thank you for bringing that up! That is also something I had noticed

that seemed to make no sense at all: why would they feel so threatened by me

just being nice simply because I wanted to be? Because,like you said,then for

example my golden brother might seem flawed.He could never be punished for

anything when we were growing up--it was like them having to punish him at all

would have been the same as saying he was wrong and since he was golden,he

couldn't ever be wrong.And I couldn't ever be in any way better than him--or

nicer or whatever good thing--because that might make *him* less golden.Both of

my parents were very fixated on me being dutiful/doing my duty to them,but my

brother always got a pass.And any little thing he did do for them was praised to

the skies like it was manna from heaven.

It helps to understand the dynamics,although that doesn't make them any

less bizarre and sick.So many layers of damage to take stock of...

> > >

> > > My nada bawled me out one time because she claimed she hadn't seen me even

once in six months. In reality I had seen her probably a dozen or more times in

six months including, inviting her to my 30th birthday to which she attended and

ruined (I said nothing), I took her out for her birthday including a fancy

dinner, flowers, gift, card, etc. I went shopping with her, she came to

gatherings with my friends, I had dinner at her house, etc, etc. There was

many, many times I saw her.

> > >

> > > When I told my friend what nada accused me of my friend exclaimed " I have

even seen your mom lot's in six months! " So there's no way any sane person could

believe nada's story, it was so rediculous.

> > >

> > > After that I went extreme LC because I figured if nada already believes

that I don't make time for her when I have bent over backwards entertaining her

then forget it. If LC is already reality for her then why should I bother? I

can't make her see reality anyway, so LC it is. Done and done.

> > >

> > > Thanks nada.

> > >

> > > P.S. Oddly enough now that LC is actual reality for her she doesn't

complain to me that I don't see her. There's only talk behind my back of how

" thinks she's too good for her family " ..... gossip tidbits passed along

to me by my FOO to gaslight me some more. If only they knew how little I really

care now.

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Carol,yes,I've had that too: being told by fada (in my case the non BPD) how

much nada (the BPD) loved me as if *none* of the abuse and nastiness ever

existed.Because to admit at all that *any* of it might have been wrong would be

the same as saying nada was flawed.Which was something that could never even be

suggested--instead it was a blind insistence in the opposite direction: that she

was a loving mother.

I know what you mean about how damaging it is.Growing up,I thought of

fada as the " sane " one since in contrast to nada,it seemed like he was.It wasn't

until I was an adult that I understood he was sick,too.But during those

formative years,I was getting pummelled with that denial of reality constantly

by him and although of course our relationship with a mother is different from

our relationship with a father,I identified more with fada--so having the

reality of my experience denied by the parent I identified with and thought of

as the " sane one " (whose perceptions were more valid to me than nada's) was

incredibly damaging.Weirdly,I often felt so sorry for fada--this deep strange

sympathy--instead of feeling compassion for myself.

And what you said about gift giving out of the goodness of your heart

vs doing something because it is our duty or required of us really made me

think.So thank you for bringing that up! That is also something I had noticed

that seemed to make no sense at all: why would they feel so threatened by me

just being nice simply because I wanted to be? Because,like you said,then for

example my golden brother might seem flawed.He could never be punished for

anything when we were growing up--it was like them having to punish him at all

would have been the same as saying he was wrong and since he was golden,he

couldn't ever be wrong.And I couldn't ever be in any way better than him--or

nicer or whatever good thing--because that might make *him* less golden.Both of

my parents were very fixated on me being dutiful/doing my duty to them,but my

brother always got a pass.And any little thing he did do for them was praised to

the skies like it was manna from heaven.

It helps to understand the dynamics,although that doesn't make them any

less bizarre and sick.So many layers of damage to take stock of...

> > >

> > > My nada bawled me out one time because she claimed she hadn't seen me even

once in six months. In reality I had seen her probably a dozen or more times in

six months including, inviting her to my 30th birthday to which she attended and

ruined (I said nothing), I took her out for her birthday including a fancy

dinner, flowers, gift, card, etc. I went shopping with her, she came to

gatherings with my friends, I had dinner at her house, etc, etc. There was

many, many times I saw her.

> > >

> > > When I told my friend what nada accused me of my friend exclaimed " I have

even seen your mom lot's in six months! " So there's no way any sane person could

believe nada's story, it was so rediculous.

> > >

> > > After that I went extreme LC because I figured if nada already believes

that I don't make time for her when I have bent over backwards entertaining her

then forget it. If LC is already reality for her then why should I bother? I

can't make her see reality anyway, so LC it is. Done and done.

> > >

> > > Thanks nada.

> > >

> > > P.S. Oddly enough now that LC is actual reality for her she doesn't

complain to me that I don't see her. There's only talk behind my back of how

" thinks she's too good for her family " ..... gossip tidbits passed along

to me by my FOO to gaslight me some more. If only they knew how little I really

care now.

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

nada always told me she wanted 2 maybe 3 kids, possibly 4.....I'm the 5th !!

Jackie

,I had an ah ha moment reading your post,too.Or validation for

something I'd suspected about nada--or knew I guess,but it seemed more like

a suspicion.I'm glad you got something out of my post and I think you're

right: your sibling roles were there to boost up your mother's self image.

What you said about your sister being the sweet,dependent little girl

who gave your mom a *mother* role...whoa...for one thing,nada always always

kept stating her desire to have a third child--AND--in her spoken fantasies

about having this third child,she always maintained that it would be a

girl.She had even picked out a name: a variation on her maiden name--which

I've always thought of as so narcissistic,like she wanted to have a

mini-me.But after reading your post,I think it was more that this fantasy

little girl was supposed to shore up nada's self image,hence why she

intended to attach that piece of herself to the baby by naming it after her.

She could be SO insenstive when speaking of her desire to have this

third baby and it made me feel like the hoped for baby girl was meant to be

a replacement for me,the defective model.

[Guest guest]

Doug ~

What is gaslighting? I'm sure I've got something on this, but I could use some

help understanding this term.

) Dolly

>

> What are your most notable and infuriating cases of gaslighting from nada?

>

>

> Mine were

>

> Money. Somehow nada could never recall anytime I gave her money.

>

> She took my dad and uncle to court over money she supposedly didnt get in

child support. My uncle had paid her out of the business that they ran

together. Nada insisted that it was her pay from working there. Problem? She

never worked there a day. I would know, because I worked there. But she became

convinced that she had recieved those checks as a salary. She got really angry

at the judge when he called her a liar.

>

> She was in nursing school while I was in high school and dropped out. We never

did find out why. But her story for a while was that it was so I could get a

cap and gown for graduation. That was nonsense, because I was working and could

pay for it myself, and my dad or any of several uncles would have given me the

money had I asked. When I argued that story with her, it began to change, and

then it became that she dropped out to get a job and keep me from quitting high

school.

> Problem? After she dropped out , she didnt get a job until long after I was

gone and in the Navy. Also, I never seriously considered dropping out, but did

tell her once , once mind you, that maybe I should do that and work full time to

support us, since she had squandered her divorce settlement, lost 2 jobs, and

didnt seem highly motivated to get one. She turned that into a self sacrificing

gaslight story about how she gave up her career in nursing just to keep me in

school.

> Of course , how sick is that? 17 year olds should not be the ones working to

suppoort a 36 yo mother.

>

> The story evolved again after a while till she had dropped out because the

director of the school had it in for her because I had dated but not married her

daughter! But we were still in High School when all this happened.

>

> And they wonder why we doubt reality.

>

> So, guys. What are your crazy gaslighing stories.

>

> Doug

>

[Guest guest]

That's just sadistic. You were being emotionally tortured, and then laughed at

in your pain. If that's not sadism, I don't know what is.

I'm so sorry you had to endure that kind of parenting, and then being molested

on top of it. You poor little kid; you should have been removed from your

parents' " care " for your own safety.

Jeez, Louise.

-Annie

>

> My sister is doing this right now. The whole, " But we never doubted mom

> loved us " kind of thing. Well, I actually think my mother was incapable of

> loving anyone more than herself. My sister said when we were little my mother

> used to do decapage with us. The second she said it, I tried to remember. I

> do not remember that. I remember 1 birthday party when I was about 5 (6?)

> and ironically my sister remembers that same party for me but doesn't

> remember ever having any of her own or me having any others.

>

> However, even that is distorted. My birthday is 6 days before Christmas and

> my mother invited Santa. Apparently I screamed bloody murder and hid in

> the bathroom. This was not to say my mother comforted me. Oh, no. She LAUGHED

> at me and for years talked about how 'ridiculous' and 'embarrassing' it

> was because apparently I cried until I threw up.

>

> I was a very easily spooked child. My father was a policeman and I was

> never protected from the bad side of life. I was also being sexually abused

by

> an uncle. At way too young I knew about rapes, murders, break-ins,

> robberies, shootings, etc. I was not shielded from anything. My mother was

vivid

> in her descriptions of things. I remember one time we were in the grocery

> store at night and my mother went to get the manager of the store because

> she said a man was following her and saying things about what he was going to

> do to her under his breath. I was terrified. She then went an alternate

> route home, claiming the man was following us. I was hysterical and she was

> never comforting to me in any way.

>

> I think more than anything, I remember the lack of emotional security, lack

> of love, lack of attention, lack of respect.....I never felt secure and

> then I was laughed at and belittled because I was so spooky and insecure.

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

That's just sadistic. You were being emotionally tortured, and then laughed at

in your pain. If that's not sadism, I don't know what is.

I'm so sorry you had to endure that kind of parenting, and then being molested

on top of it. You poor little kid; you should have been removed from your

parents' " care " for your own safety.

Jeez, Louise.

-Annie

>

> My sister is doing this right now. The whole, " But we never doubted mom

> loved us " kind of thing. Well, I actually think my mother was incapable of

> loving anyone more than herself. My sister said when we were little my mother

> used to do decapage with us. The second she said it, I tried to remember. I

> do not remember that. I remember 1 birthday party when I was about 5 (6?)

> and ironically my sister remembers that same party for me but doesn't

> remember ever having any of her own or me having any others.

>

> However, even that is distorted. My birthday is 6 days before Christmas and

> my mother invited Santa. Apparently I screamed bloody murder and hid in

> the bathroom. This was not to say my mother comforted me. Oh, no. She LAUGHED

> at me and for years talked about how 'ridiculous' and 'embarrassing' it

> was because apparently I cried until I threw up.

>

> I was a very easily spooked child. My father was a policeman and I was

> never protected from the bad side of life. I was also being sexually abused

by

> an uncle. At way too young I knew about rapes, murders, break-ins,

> robberies, shootings, etc. I was not shielded from anything. My mother was

vivid

> in her descriptions of things. I remember one time we were in the grocery

> store at night and my mother went to get the manager of the store because

> she said a man was following her and saying things about what he was going to

> do to her under his breath. I was terrified. She then went an alternate

> route home, claiming the man was following us. I was hysterical and she was

> never comforting to me in any way.

>

> I think more than anything, I remember the lack of emotional security, lack

> of love, lack of attention, lack of respect.....I never felt secure and

> then I was laughed at and belittled because I was so spooky and insecure.

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

That's just sadistic. You were being emotionally tortured, and then laughed at

in your pain. If that's not sadism, I don't know what is.

I'm so sorry you had to endure that kind of parenting, and then being molested

on top of it. You poor little kid; you should have been removed from your

parents' " care " for your own safety.

Jeez, Louise.

-Annie

>

> My sister is doing this right now. The whole, " But we never doubted mom

> loved us " kind of thing. Well, I actually think my mother was incapable of

> loving anyone more than herself. My sister said when we were little my mother

> used to do decapage with us. The second she said it, I tried to remember. I

> do not remember that. I remember 1 birthday party when I was about 5 (6?)

> and ironically my sister remembers that same party for me but doesn't

> remember ever having any of her own or me having any others.

>

> However, even that is distorted. My birthday is 6 days before Christmas and

> my mother invited Santa. Apparently I screamed bloody murder and hid in

> the bathroom. This was not to say my mother comforted me. Oh, no. She LAUGHED

> at me and for years talked about how 'ridiculous' and 'embarrassing' it

> was because apparently I cried until I threw up.

>

> I was a very easily spooked child. My father was a policeman and I was

> never protected from the bad side of life. I was also being sexually abused

by

> an uncle. At way too young I knew about rapes, murders, break-ins,

> robberies, shootings, etc. I was not shielded from anything. My mother was

vivid

> in her descriptions of things. I remember one time we were in the grocery

> store at night and my mother went to get the manager of the store because

> she said a man was following her and saying things about what he was going to

> do to her under his breath. I was terrified. She then went an alternate

> route home, claiming the man was following us. I was hysterical and she was

> never comforting to me in any way.

>

> I think more than anything, I remember the lack of emotional security, lack

> of love, lack of attention, lack of respect.....I never felt secure and

> then I was laughed at and belittled because I was so spooky and insecure.

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

not sure if I can explaine it well, but ti's when someone else ( like a

nada) twists things around to make YOU look like the crazy one.. my nada is

a pro at this..

Jackie

Doug ~

What is gaslighting? I'm sure I've got something on this, but I could use

some help understanding this term.

) Dolly

[Guest guest]

that's so sad :-( what a terrible thing to do to a terrified child !!

parents are supposed to comfort us and help us, but BPD makes them mean

and they dont care :-( and see, another reason why you do not have BPD !!

you are a very loving and caring mother to your children !!!

Jackie

However, even that is distorted. My birthday is 6 days before Christmas and

my mother invited Santa. Apparently I screamed bloody murder and hid in

the bathroom. This was not to say my mother comforted me. Oh, no. She

LAUGHED

at me and for years talked about how 'ridiculous' and 'embarrassing' it

was because apparently I cried until I threw up.

I think more than anything, I remember the lack of emotional security, lack

of love, lack of attention, lack of respect.....I never felt secure and

then I was laughed at and belittled because I was so spooky and insecure.

[Guest guest]

Jackie~

Funny how YOU get the slap for speaking the truth and she gets to

do it to you because she is the mother. Face slapping is so humiliating.

One time, when I was in 9th grade, my grandparents were visiting. My mom

was fretting about it for weeks. I don't remember the whole thing but she

was worried she couldn't take their visit (that is the clue, the peek behind the

veil

of her pretense of a *perfect* childhood)

She was worried she would have to go into the mental ward at the hospital. I

kept

trying to boost her up and tell her she could do it. OF course what the hell

did I

know. I am not mad at her for this, just sad, you know? It's not like my dad

was there

helping her; mental fragility is tough to handle alone (My theory: my dad had

severe

mental illness in his family and so he avoided it like hell) I mean, perhaps the

mental

ward WAS where she needed to be. Only problem: us kids would be left with the

aftermath.

Well on my last day of 9th grade I came home and was told that mom was in the

mental

ward (my grandparents had arrived). I felt so devastated, lost, I don't know

what. I

was attached to my mom regardless of these ways she was.

So at dinner one night, my grandparents and dad were discussing why my mom was

in the hospital. They started talking about us kids, the house cleanliness (and

who

ever knows what else). I felt this rage build inside me; this uncontrollable

feeling (and

I *control* my self intensely).

And I think I yelled: Fuck You! (my sister recalled this vividly) and my father

slapped me across the face. (My sister called it the slap heard round the

world).

I was so angry at him and them (grand parents) because I knew the truth of why

she was gone

and they were making it like it was our faults. My grandfather later told me to

apologize to

my dad! I said okay (because it was my grandpa) but never did. No freaking

way!

I was 14 or 15 and I had some things figured out by then, and apologizing for

that was one thing I was not going to

do because I did NOT respect my dad for doing that to me. Obviously he did not

care or think about the pain

us children were in to have our mother gone like that.

~patricia

Re: Re: gaslighting

thanks ..yes, my nada had all kinds of ways to try and hurt me...she

had told me this many times, about not wanting as many kids as she ended up

with...once when I was in high school, she said this again, and I said back

in a snotty way then you should have kept your legs together...she slapped

me across the face :-(

Jackie

So Jackie,

Your mom was telling you that she wanted some kids but not as many

as you happened to be? That is terrible. I cannot believe how negative

and awful people can be. Isn't there a mental illness of niceness? Oh, no

that would be us, the over-nice people the result of this mean-ness.

Sorry to hear that you had to listen to this

~patricia

------------------------------------

Problems? Ask our friendly List Manager for help at @....

SEND HER ANY POSTS THAT CONCERN YOU; DO NOT Respond ON THE GROUP.

To order the KO bible " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " call 888-35-SHELL

() for your copy. We also refer to " Understanding the Borderline

Mother " (Lawson) and " Surviving the Borderline Parent, " (Roth) which you can

find at any bookstore. Welcome to the WTO community!

From Randi Kreger, Owner BPDCentral, WTO Online Community and author SWOE and

the SWOE Workbook.

[Guest guest]

Jackie~

Funny how YOU get the slap for speaking the truth and she gets to

do it to you because she is the mother. Face slapping is so humiliating.

One time, when I was in 9th grade, my grandparents were visiting. My mom

was fretting about it for weeks. I don't remember the whole thing but she

was worried she couldn't take their visit (that is the clue, the peek behind the

veil

of her pretense of a *perfect* childhood)

She was worried she would have to go into the mental ward at the hospital. I

kept

trying to boost her up and tell her she could do it. OF course what the hell

did I

know. I am not mad at her for this, just sad, you know? It's not like my dad

was there

helping her; mental fragility is tough to handle alone (My theory: my dad had

severe

mental illness in his family and so he avoided it like hell) I mean, perhaps the

mental

ward WAS where she needed to be. Only problem: us kids would be left with the

aftermath.

Well on my last day of 9th grade I came home and was told that mom was in the

mental

ward (my grandparents had arrived). I felt so devastated, lost, I don't know

what. I

was attached to my mom regardless of these ways she was.

So at dinner one night, my grandparents and dad were discussing why my mom was

in the hospital. They started talking about us kids, the house cleanliness (and

who

ever knows what else). I felt this rage build inside me; this uncontrollable

feeling (and

I *control* my self intensely).

And I think I yelled: Fuck You! (my sister recalled this vividly) and my father

slapped me across the face. (My sister called it the slap heard round the

world).

I was so angry at him and them (grand parents) because I knew the truth of why

she was gone

and they were making it like it was our faults. My grandfather later told me to

apologize to

my dad! I said okay (because it was my grandpa) but never did. No freaking

way!

I was 14 or 15 and I had some things figured out by then, and apologizing for

that was one thing I was not going to

do because I did NOT respect my dad for doing that to me. Obviously he did not

care or think about the pain

us children were in to have our mother gone like that.

~patricia

Re: Re: gaslighting

thanks ..yes, my nada had all kinds of ways to try and hurt me...she

had told me this many times, about not wanting as many kids as she ended up

with...once when I was in high school, she said this again, and I said back

in a snotty way then you should have kept your legs together...she slapped

me across the face :-(

Jackie

So Jackie,

Your mom was telling you that she wanted some kids but not as many

as you happened to be? That is terrible. I cannot believe how negative

and awful people can be. Isn't there a mental illness of niceness? Oh, no

that would be us, the over-nice people the result of this mean-ness.

Sorry to hear that you had to listen to this

~patricia

------------------------------------

Problems? Ask our friendly List Manager for help at @....

SEND HER ANY POSTS THAT CONCERN YOU; DO NOT Respond ON THE GROUP.

To order the KO bible " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " call 888-35-SHELL

() for your copy. We also refer to " Understanding the Borderline

Mother " (Lawson) and " Surviving the Borderline Parent, " (Roth) which you can

find at any bookstore. Welcome to the WTO community!

From Randi Kreger, Owner BPDCentral, WTO Online Community and author SWOE and

the SWOE Workbook.

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

Thank you for your compassion about my pain/injury. I had a fall at work on my

left butt and then I work in this sort of left facing way, bending and lifting.

It has loosened my S-I joint which is not supposed to move. First I went to my

doctor, he sent me to the chiropractor and I went there for weeks, then to a

specialist (first back to the doctor). That specialist prescribed P/T for

twelve visits. I had a trip planned in between that, and when I got back I went

to four visits and then they said: oh that is all you are covered for. Went

back to specialist she gives me a shot (no x-ray) and says come back. But she

also says: well what do you want me to do? She won't give me a no-working note.

Why? And why ask me what do I want her to do? Meanwhile dealing with workers

comp insurance, getting approvals etc.

I go away and shot doesn't work come back and dr says; I don't know what to do

for you. We can do an MRI because your x-rays are fine. Am *I* the doctor?

Have I studied for years this stuff? Am *I* the only one who has unrelenting

pain because of work? She tells me I should find another job. I said: what?

Am I supposed to leave a job where I have a claim (I would lose my claim if I

leave, there is a protocol); limp away? To what? Another job that aggravates

my sacrum but can get no workers comp or insurance or time off with pay?

How out of touch can these people be?

I went back to my dr and he sends me (for some reason as the last resort??) to a

spine specialist. This guy explains to me exactly what is wrong and why I need

an injection with an x-ray. I am so grateful to finally understand what is

wrong with me, why the brace I had before did not work, etc. Finally relieved

to have a plan. So I call his reception to give information for insurance

approval and asked for pain medication because the night before I was dying in

pain. And I am alone here, no one to massage my legs and butt area where it

hurts so bad. Ibuprofen doesn't work. I make the mistake of saying alcohol

helps it.

So I am taking a nap and the phone goes off and I answer because of all these

insurance and dr calls i have out. The new dr says: I don't understand why you

are asking me for painkillers, like, why now? You have had this injury since

june of 09. You've seen me one time and you are asking me now? (his concern of

course is that I am using him to get narcotics and then going t my reg dr saying

my script ran out and can i get more).

Well he does not know me at all! And I was like a deer in headlights. I asked

myself: why now? And I couldn't articulate that I felt like I was finally with

the right doctor who could help me get a hold on this really painful condition.

That I normally tolerate pain and endure a lot of pain (probably sounds familiar

to a lot of people here). How could I tell him that I am having a hard time

managing EVERYthing in my life because I am going through intense complicated

grief at the same time and this pain is wearing me down?

All while he is having this weird accusing tone? When he was so nice in the

office. He says: don't take ibuprofen it could cause bleeding in the stomach.

And alcohol is bad too. I will call your dr and ask him. He calls back later

and leaves a message saying: your doctor said no.

You should talk to him. I call my dr's nurse and she says: he says you should

talk to your actual primary dr. (Who is usually not easy to get into see

because he started another practice doing laser). WTF!! Talk about triggering

issues of pain not being taken care of!

My pain, as a child, was never never addressed. I had some accidents and was

never held and shushhed. My father (the non emotional one) always took me to

the dr or hospital for stitches. Our dentist did not use novacaine on us. I

have a huge avoidance to dental work now. Even though I need it. Even if just

a cleaning.

And now, here I am suffering and they are acting like I am a druggie. My sister

died from that!

My reaction is to go into victim, sad mode. Poor me. But I have people

encouraging me to get mad and demand help (these are guys). But I will say

something when I get my shot; I have this fear that he won't help me now. It

has added to my stress in life in a way I did not need at all.

Sorry this is long; i probably am repeating myself. But I just can't believe

it! (Although when I went to the gynecologist and told her that I feel during

PMS i am almost suicidal, which is not normal; normally I am just bitchy, she

looked at me blankly. She said: I can put you on the pill but only for three

years (til 50); and I don't do well with the pill at all, it makes me depressed.

She mentioned antidepressants (drs must be glad to be able to go to that and

send you away) and pretty much left the room)

I really can understand now what my sister went through with her doctor

situation; the judgments they had, the unwillingness to understand her life and

how to really help her. Ironically, I have barely done drugs in my life. I

drink now at night, because it is the only thing that helps my sadness and pain,

the ONLY thing. I have one, maybe two drinks. That is it. I live alone, have

incredible grief, have a child who needs help in school but is being

refused (illegally in my opinion) and I have bad pain in the area of my body

that keeps me from doing what usually helps me which is hiking and dancing. (Dr

told me the only thing I could do is tread water...pay ten dollars a shot to go

in a pool somewhere...where I don't know to tread water)

I want to get into Public Health because I want to help people in a way that

actually helps. But maybe I should educate doctors ...I wonder if that is an

aspect of public health that I could get hired for....

Now there is an idea!

If you read this long, thank you

~patricia

Re: gaslighting

Hi ,

What a shame you're having joint pain.I don't have that,but have

had some health problems at times and I know how they can just wear you

down.Wow,that really sucks! Did you have problems getting a good painkiller from

your doctor that would work for you? I remember the last time I had a really bad

sore throat (not as bothersome in the long term as joint pain,but...) and my

doctor refused to give me codeine.It's like they're so paranoid people are going

to abuse painkillers,sometimes ridiculously so.I'm telling her it really really

hurt and she's telling me " I only prescribe codeine in total emergencies and

even then,if I can avoid it,I don't... " But it *was* an emergency!!!

Have you tried bio-identical progesterone cream? I know someone

who had joint pain related to the beginnings of real menopause and using that

helped her.Although it doesn't sound like that's what is causing yours? Just a

thought,anyway.

My ex wife...No,I don't think she's *really* happy.I don't want to

write too many possibly identifying details since after all I'm speaking of her

without her consent,but she did go on to have a very high profile job (on an

international level)--then after a couple of years she resigned.That is what

she'd do: land these prestige positions and then if there was even a hint that

she *might* be called onto the carpet for something (I'm talking relatively

minor stuff--nobody is perfect),instead of staying and fighting,she'd bow out

" gracefully " .Go on to the next job,then to the next one.

She can't bear the ignominy of (even passing defeat),so she cuts and

runs.As far as I know,that hasn't changed.If she called me and said: I have this

really wonderful relationship and I'm so happy with it/and/I found the perfect

job and I'm really sticking with it and I really trust in myself now to do it

well...I would simply be glad for her.I can't really say that,to be honest,about

most of my other exes.I'd still feel that pang of ego woundedness,like,what do

you mean,you're really happy (HAPPIER!) without me,but we really lived something

together the two of us.We really tried to make it work.I didn't doubt her love

for me and she knew I truly loved her.It's still there,just not as it was when

we were together.It's like the possessiveness of coupledom is gone but the good

will remains.

And I think both of us feel pain (for the other) that we weren't able

to be totally what we needed at the time or enough at the time to really be that

help that would rectify the past or heal us.Reading your posts (since much of

what you say is like her issues),I've had a gradual epiphany about what went

wrong.I see that I judged her--or misjudged her--harshly sometimes because of my

own issues.I feel like I understand her better,ten years too late.Which doesn't

mean that I want to get back with her.I don't.It's not the same anymore as it

was.But understanding better where she was coming from brings a fuller feeling

of closure.Or,it seems to me right now,a more mature assessment of the

relationship with alot less self pity clouding the memory of it .

What you said about not being able to act out by being bad or doing

drugs,ha,that was like my ex wife too.She was too conditioned to be responsible

to just " let go " like that.Like doing stuff like that was too alien to how she

was *supposed* to be.She drank sometimes when she was under alot of stress,but

not like an alcoholic (although when she did,she worried she'd become one).She

had a hard time in general relaxing,so her drinking was always only at home and

she had to have a " reason " for it: like I need some Cognac so I can sleep

tonight--and yet--I feel really " bad " for even having it but I need it but...One

time I jokingly said that we should just get really blasted together and see

what we got up to,just for fun...and she was horrified.

You shouldn't have been expected to take care of your mother when you

were in grade school!! Or expected to take care of her at all,of course.My ex

wife's Waif nada had " spells " sometimes lasting weeks when she would take to her

bed.And she was expected to nurse her.She said the same thing you did,about

being scared of her pain yet loving her--and frightened by how strange she was

acting.She had no one to go to say:*I* feel scared...it was all:what can you do

for your poor mother...your poor mother...who is the one who needs help...

And so it was extremely difficult for my ex wife to ever say: I have

a need...I need help...my need is legitimate and I expect it to be addressed.She

hoped that others would guess what she needed since saying it out loud would

lead to a rejection,she thought.

But if I told her: If you just tell me what you need and if I can

provide it,I will do so immediately or ASAP and I will be delighted to...then

she'd go back to the: It's not really that important,I'll adjust...I shouldn't

have brought it up,forget about it...

She definitely felt like she was not " allowed " to express her needs or

her pain,even when I *thought* I was giving her permission to.Like if I thought

she was complaining,I'd get tired of her.She seemed to think that her being sad

was some kind of mortal sin.

It's interesting what you said about your sister being a mirror to

you.Incidentally,my ex wife was close to her little sister from their teenage

years but never close to her older sister.She used to say that *I* was like a

mirror to her.

I think it's good that your roles are disappearing.That,now,you can

have more freedom to discover what *your* role is,for you.To no longer have to

fix your family,but to tend to yourself.You deserve that--it's not selfish.Not

at all.

>

> Hi ,

> This is very interesting what you wrote about your place in the family and

your *role* and what it seems that nadas *need*. I mean the three-child thing

can fill that pretty readily but the less than three not so good.

>

> I'm sorry that you felt *less-than* because of what your mother was acting

out. I was also the little adult. And also criticized for being that way at

different times. I don't even know really how this has shaped me; what I mean

is I don't know who I am without this persona. I think that is why I feel so

sad without my sister (I mean other obvious reasons) because she gave me a sort

of mirror to myself. She knew me. But she also would be one of those that

would say: you are too serious.

> So yeah, I was depended on heavily but in that weird way, not respected. And

so I became this adult person who accepts not being respected and doesn't even

know when it is happening.

>

> You are so very articulate in describing your ex-wife's feelings of

lost-ness and alienation. In a way I can relate; being *lost* not having a

sense of not understanding my pain in this part of my life and that is scary; I

cannot act out by being bad or doing drugs etc.

> That poor poor woman; how could someone treat a baby that way; their own

child? (My parents were not like that). This world is crazy.

> In a lot of ways her position sounds like mine. My brother was " the artist "

(golden one) and my sister was the baby; I had to take care of my mom with all

her crisises. One time when I was in elementary school, my mother cracked her

pelvis falling on the steps. I was somehow the one to stay home from school to

watch after her! I remember how scared I was because my mom was in so much

pain. There is this weird thing because you love your mom, but you are scared

of this *person* who is in pain and acting strange, like a wounded animal.

>

> So yeah...this weird attachment. And I think you are onto something...not

having a *role* at school, not having boundaries and everyone else just crowding

in. You are right; the feeling I get about not getting off the bus is one of

*protest*.

> I am also afraid of having people spot my flaws and I am very defensive.

When I would go to see Khasha (when he lived five minutes down the road, I would

spend two hours getting ready, even though it was fun, that says something).

>

> I can relate too, to what you say about your ex, saying things like: I have

no reason to be down, I'm just whining. I just wrote to Khasha about this

chronic sacral-iliac pain that I am just being a baby (because I am so sad about

it and complaining, like I am not allowed).

>

> That is so sad about her identifying with Casper. Sometimes I feel like a

ghost anymore. I mean, my role(s) are disappearing; I am not longer looking

after and trying to help my sister and her kids, my mom has my niece there, my

son is a teenager (I know he needs me but....in three years he is technically an

adult). I go my way every day with no one to see me or account to.

>

> Do you know if your ex is happy or what she is doing? I understand what you

are saying; you are very compassionate. It's funny, I feel that way towards

Khasha. I actually really love him, not the sort of superficial love of *what

can he do for me* but I just love him. I don't want him to be with anyone else

but I don't want him unhappy either.

> Ah well. I have another story to tell about my request for painkillers from

the new doctor I saw for my SI joint pain.

> ~patricia

> ps..thank you for articulating this so clearly it helps me a lot because

even though I am very analytical and thoughtful about things I don't understand

certain parts of myself.

>

>

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

> Problems? Ask our friendly List Manager for help at @... SEND HER

ANY POSTS THAT CONCERN YOU; DO NOT Respond ON THE GROUP.

>

> To order the KO bible " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " call 888-35-SHELL

() for your copy. We also refer to " Understanding the Borderline

Mother " (Lawson) and " Surviving the Borderline Parent, " (Roth) which you can

find at any bookstore. Welcome to the WTO community!

>

> From Randi Kreger, Owner BPDCentral, WTO Online Community and author SWOE

and the SWOE Workbook.

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

Thank you for your compassion about my pain/injury. I had a fall at work on my

left butt and then I work in this sort of left facing way, bending and lifting.

It has loosened my S-I joint which is not supposed to move. First I went to my

doctor, he sent me to the chiropractor and I went there for weeks, then to a

specialist (first back to the doctor). That specialist prescribed P/T for

twelve visits. I had a trip planned in between that, and when I got back I went

to four visits and then they said: oh that is all you are covered for. Went

back to specialist she gives me a shot (no x-ray) and says come back. But she

also says: well what do you want me to do? She won't give me a no-working note.

Why? And why ask me what do I want her to do? Meanwhile dealing with workers

comp insurance, getting approvals etc.

I go away and shot doesn't work come back and dr says; I don't know what to do

for you. We can do an MRI because your x-rays are fine. Am *I* the doctor?

Have I studied for years this stuff? Am *I* the only one who has unrelenting

pain because of work? She tells me I should find another job. I said: what?

Am I supposed to leave a job where I have a claim (I would lose my claim if I

leave, there is a protocol); limp away? To what? Another job that aggravates

my sacrum but can get no workers comp or insurance or time off with pay?

How out of touch can these people be?

I went back to my dr and he sends me (for some reason as the last resort??) to a

spine specialist. This guy explains to me exactly what is wrong and why I need

an injection with an x-ray. I am so grateful to finally understand what is

wrong with me, why the brace I had before did not work, etc. Finally relieved

to have a plan. So I call his reception to give information for insurance

approval and asked for pain medication because the night before I was dying in

pain. And I am alone here, no one to massage my legs and butt area where it

hurts so bad. Ibuprofen doesn't work. I make the mistake of saying alcohol

helps it.

So I am taking a nap and the phone goes off and I answer because of all these

insurance and dr calls i have out. The new dr says: I don't understand why you

are asking me for painkillers, like, why now? You have had this injury since

june of 09. You've seen me one time and you are asking me now? (his concern of

course is that I am using him to get narcotics and then going t my reg dr saying

my script ran out and can i get more).

Well he does not know me at all! And I was like a deer in headlights. I asked

myself: why now? And I couldn't articulate that I felt like I was finally with

the right doctor who could help me get a hold on this really painful condition.

That I normally tolerate pain and endure a lot of pain (probably sounds familiar

to a lot of people here). How could I tell him that I am having a hard time

managing EVERYthing in my life because I am going through intense complicated

grief at the same time and this pain is wearing me down?

All while he is having this weird accusing tone? When he was so nice in the

office. He says: don't take ibuprofen it could cause bleeding in the stomach.

And alcohol is bad too. I will call your dr and ask him. He calls back later

and leaves a message saying: your doctor said no.

You should talk to him. I call my dr's nurse and she says: he says you should

talk to your actual primary dr. (Who is usually not easy to get into see

because he started another practice doing laser). WTF!! Talk about triggering

issues of pain not being taken care of!

My pain, as a child, was never never addressed. I had some accidents and was

never held and shushhed. My father (the non emotional one) always took me to

the dr or hospital for stitches. Our dentist did not use novacaine on us. I

have a huge avoidance to dental work now. Even though I need it. Even if just

a cleaning.

And now, here I am suffering and they are acting like I am a druggie. My sister

died from that!

My reaction is to go into victim, sad mode. Poor me. But I have people

encouraging me to get mad and demand help (these are guys). But I will say

something when I get my shot; I have this fear that he won't help me now. It

has added to my stress in life in a way I did not need at all.

Sorry this is long; i probably am repeating myself. But I just can't believe

it! (Although when I went to the gynecologist and told her that I feel during

PMS i am almost suicidal, which is not normal; normally I am just bitchy, she

looked at me blankly. She said: I can put you on the pill but only for three

years (til 50); and I don't do well with the pill at all, it makes me depressed.

She mentioned antidepressants (drs must be glad to be able to go to that and

send you away) and pretty much left the room)

I really can understand now what my sister went through with her doctor

situation; the judgments they had, the unwillingness to understand her life and

how to really help her. Ironically, I have barely done drugs in my life. I

drink now at night, because it is the only thing that helps my sadness and pain,

the ONLY thing. I have one, maybe two drinks. That is it. I live alone, have

incredible grief, have a child who needs help in school but is being

refused (illegally in my opinion) and I have bad pain in the area of my body

that keeps me from doing what usually helps me which is hiking and dancing. (Dr

told me the only thing I could do is tread water...pay ten dollars a shot to go

in a pool somewhere...where I don't know to tread water)

I want to get into Public Health because I want to help people in a way that

actually helps. But maybe I should educate doctors ...I wonder if that is an

aspect of public health that I could get hired for....

Now there is an idea!

If you read this long, thank you

~patricia

Re: gaslighting

Hi ,

What a shame you're having joint pain.I don't have that,but have

had some health problems at times and I know how they can just wear you

down.Wow,that really sucks! Did you have problems getting a good painkiller from

your doctor that would work for you? I remember the last time I had a really bad

sore throat (not as bothersome in the long term as joint pain,but...) and my

doctor refused to give me codeine.It's like they're so paranoid people are going

to abuse painkillers,sometimes ridiculously so.I'm telling her it really really

hurt and she's telling me " I only prescribe codeine in total emergencies and

even then,if I can avoid it,I don't... " But it *was* an emergency!!!

Have you tried bio-identical progesterone cream? I know someone

who had joint pain related to the beginnings of real menopause and using that

helped her.Although it doesn't sound like that's what is causing yours? Just a

thought,anyway.

My ex wife...No,I don't think she's *really* happy.I don't want to

write too many possibly identifying details since after all I'm speaking of her

without her consent,but she did go on to have a very high profile job (on an

international level)--then after a couple of years she resigned.That is what

she'd do: land these prestige positions and then if there was even a hint that

she *might* be called onto the carpet for something (I'm talking relatively

minor stuff--nobody is perfect),instead of staying and fighting,she'd bow out

" gracefully " .Go on to the next job,then to the next one.

She can't bear the ignominy of (even passing defeat),so she cuts and

runs.As far as I know,that hasn't changed.If she called me and said: I have this

really wonderful relationship and I'm so happy with it/and/I found the perfect

job and I'm really sticking with it and I really trust in myself now to do it

well...I would simply be glad for her.I can't really say that,to be honest,about

most of my other exes.I'd still feel that pang of ego woundedness,like,what do

you mean,you're really happy (HAPPIER!) without me,but we really lived something

together the two of us.We really tried to make it work.I didn't doubt her love

for me and she knew I truly loved her.It's still there,just not as it was when

we were together.It's like the possessiveness of coupledom is gone but the good

will remains.

And I think both of us feel pain (for the other) that we weren't able

to be totally what we needed at the time or enough at the time to really be that

help that would rectify the past or heal us.Reading your posts (since much of

what you say is like her issues),I've had a gradual epiphany about what went

wrong.I see that I judged her--or misjudged her--harshly sometimes because of my

own issues.I feel like I understand her better,ten years too late.Which doesn't

mean that I want to get back with her.I don't.It's not the same anymore as it

was.But understanding better where she was coming from brings a fuller feeling

of closure.Or,it seems to me right now,a more mature assessment of the

relationship with alot less self pity clouding the memory of it .

What you said about not being able to act out by being bad or doing

drugs,ha,that was like my ex wife too.She was too conditioned to be responsible

to just " let go " like that.Like doing stuff like that was too alien to how she

was *supposed* to be.She drank sometimes when she was under alot of stress,but

not like an alcoholic (although when she did,she worried she'd become one).She

had a hard time in general relaxing,so her drinking was always only at home and

she had to have a " reason " for it: like I need some Cognac so I can sleep

tonight--and yet--I feel really " bad " for even having it but I need it but...One

time I jokingly said that we should just get really blasted together and see

what we got up to,just for fun...and she was horrified.

You shouldn't have been expected to take care of your mother when you

were in grade school!! Or expected to take care of her at all,of course.My ex

wife's Waif nada had " spells " sometimes lasting weeks when she would take to her

bed.And she was expected to nurse her.She said the same thing you did,about

being scared of her pain yet loving her--and frightened by how strange she was

acting.She had no one to go to say:*I* feel scared...it was all:what can you do

for your poor mother...your poor mother...who is the one who needs help...

And so it was extremely difficult for my ex wife to ever say: I have

a need...I need help...my need is legitimate and I expect it to be addressed.She

hoped that others would guess what she needed since saying it out loud would

lead to a rejection,she thought.

But if I told her: If you just tell me what you need and if I can

provide it,I will do so immediately or ASAP and I will be delighted to...then

she'd go back to the: It's not really that important,I'll adjust...I shouldn't

have brought it up,forget about it...

She definitely felt like she was not " allowed " to express her needs or

her pain,even when I *thought* I was giving her permission to.Like if I thought

she was complaining,I'd get tired of her.She seemed to think that her being sad

was some kind of mortal sin.

It's interesting what you said about your sister being a mirror to

you.Incidentally,my ex wife was close to her little sister from their teenage

years but never close to her older sister.She used to say that *I* was like a

mirror to her.

I think it's good that your roles are disappearing.That,now,you can

have more freedom to discover what *your* role is,for you.To no longer have to

fix your family,but to tend to yourself.You deserve that--it's not selfish.Not

at all.

>

> Hi ,

> This is very interesting what you wrote about your place in the family and

your *role* and what it seems that nadas *need*. I mean the three-child thing

can fill that pretty readily but the less than three not so good.

>

> I'm sorry that you felt *less-than* because of what your mother was acting

out. I was also the little adult. And also criticized for being that way at

different times. I don't even know really how this has shaped me; what I mean

is I don't know who I am without this persona. I think that is why I feel so

sad without my sister (I mean other obvious reasons) because she gave me a sort

of mirror to myself. She knew me. But she also would be one of those that

would say: you are too serious.

> So yeah, I was depended on heavily but in that weird way, not respected. And

so I became this adult person who accepts not being respected and doesn't even

know when it is happening.

>

> You are so very articulate in describing your ex-wife's feelings of

lost-ness and alienation. In a way I can relate; being *lost* not having a

sense of not understanding my pain in this part of my life and that is scary; I

cannot act out by being bad or doing drugs etc.

> That poor poor woman; how could someone treat a baby that way; their own

child? (My parents were not like that). This world is crazy.

> In a lot of ways her position sounds like mine. My brother was " the artist "

(golden one) and my sister was the baby; I had to take care of my mom with all

her crisises. One time when I was in elementary school, my mother cracked her

pelvis falling on the steps. I was somehow the one to stay home from school to

watch after her! I remember how scared I was because my mom was in so much

pain. There is this weird thing because you love your mom, but you are scared

of this *person* who is in pain and acting strange, like a wounded animal.

>

> So yeah...this weird attachment. And I think you are onto something...not

having a *role* at school, not having boundaries and everyone else just crowding

in. You are right; the feeling I get about not getting off the bus is one of

*protest*.

> I am also afraid of having people spot my flaws and I am very defensive.

When I would go to see Khasha (when he lived five minutes down the road, I would

spend two hours getting ready, even though it was fun, that says something).

>

> I can relate too, to what you say about your ex, saying things like: I have

no reason to be down, I'm just whining. I just wrote to Khasha about this

chronic sacral-iliac pain that I am just being a baby (because I am so sad about

it and complaining, like I am not allowed).

>

> That is so sad about her identifying with Casper. Sometimes I feel like a

ghost anymore. I mean, my role(s) are disappearing; I am not longer looking

after and trying to help my sister and her kids, my mom has my niece there, my

son is a teenager (I know he needs me but....in three years he is technically an

adult). I go my way every day with no one to see me or account to.

>

> Do you know if your ex is happy or what she is doing? I understand what you

are saying; you are very compassionate. It's funny, I feel that way towards

Khasha. I actually really love him, not the sort of superficial love of *what

can he do for me* but I just love him. I don't want him to be with anyone else

but I don't want him unhappy either.

> Ah well. I have another story to tell about my request for painkillers from

the new doctor I saw for my SI joint pain.

> ~patricia

> ps..thank you for articulating this so clearly it helps me a lot because

even though I am very analytical and thoughtful about things I don't understand

certain parts of myself.

>

>

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

> Problems? Ask our friendly List Manager for help at @... SEND HER

ANY POSTS THAT CONCERN YOU; DO NOT Respond ON THE GROUP.

>

> To order the KO bible " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " call 888-35-SHELL

() for your copy. We also refer to " Understanding the Borderline

Mother " (Lawson) and " Surviving the Borderline Parent, " (Roth) which you can

find at any bookstore. Welcome to the WTO community!

>

> From Randi Kreger, Owner BPDCentral, WTO Online Community and author SWOE

and the SWOE Workbook.

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

Thank you for your compassion about my pain/injury. I had a fall at work on my

left butt and then I work in this sort of left facing way, bending and lifting.

It has loosened my S-I joint which is not supposed to move. First I went to my

doctor, he sent me to the chiropractor and I went there for weeks, then to a

specialist (first back to the doctor). That specialist prescribed P/T for

twelve visits. I had a trip planned in between that, and when I got back I went

to four visits and then they said: oh that is all you are covered for. Went

back to specialist she gives me a shot (no x-ray) and says come back. But she

also says: well what do you want me to do? She won't give me a no-working note.

Why? And why ask me what do I want her to do? Meanwhile dealing with workers

comp insurance, getting approvals etc.

I go away and shot doesn't work come back and dr says; I don't know what to do

for you. We can do an MRI because your x-rays are fine. Am *I* the doctor?

Have I studied for years this stuff? Am *I* the only one who has unrelenting

pain because of work? She tells me I should find another job. I said: what?

Am I supposed to leave a job where I have a claim (I would lose my claim if I

leave, there is a protocol); limp away? To what? Another job that aggravates

my sacrum but can get no workers comp or insurance or time off with pay?

How out of touch can these people be?

I went back to my dr and he sends me (for some reason as the last resort??) to a

spine specialist. This guy explains to me exactly what is wrong and why I need

an injection with an x-ray. I am so grateful to finally understand what is

wrong with me, why the brace I had before did not work, etc. Finally relieved

to have a plan. So I call his reception to give information for insurance

approval and asked for pain medication because the night before I was dying in

pain. And I am alone here, no one to massage my legs and butt area where it

hurts so bad. Ibuprofen doesn't work. I make the mistake of saying alcohol

helps it.

So I am taking a nap and the phone goes off and I answer because of all these

insurance and dr calls i have out. The new dr says: I don't understand why you

are asking me for painkillers, like, why now? You have had this injury since

june of 09. You've seen me one time and you are asking me now? (his concern of

course is that I am using him to get narcotics and then going t my reg dr saying

my script ran out and can i get more).

Well he does not know me at all! And I was like a deer in headlights. I asked

myself: why now? And I couldn't articulate that I felt like I was finally with

the right doctor who could help me get a hold on this really painful condition.

That I normally tolerate pain and endure a lot of pain (probably sounds familiar

to a lot of people here). How could I tell him that I am having a hard time

managing EVERYthing in my life because I am going through intense complicated

grief at the same time and this pain is wearing me down?

All while he is having this weird accusing tone? When he was so nice in the

office. He says: don't take ibuprofen it could cause bleeding in the stomach.

And alcohol is bad too. I will call your dr and ask him. He calls back later

and leaves a message saying: your doctor said no.

You should talk to him. I call my dr's nurse and she says: he says you should

talk to your actual primary dr. (Who is usually not easy to get into see

because he started another practice doing laser). WTF!! Talk about triggering

issues of pain not being taken care of!

My pain, as a child, was never never addressed. I had some accidents and was

never held and shushhed. My father (the non emotional one) always took me to

the dr or hospital for stitches. Our dentist did not use novacaine on us. I

have a huge avoidance to dental work now. Even though I need it. Even if just

a cleaning.

And now, here I am suffering and they are acting like I am a druggie. My sister

died from that!

My reaction is to go into victim, sad mode. Poor me. But I have people

encouraging me to get mad and demand help (these are guys). But I will say

something when I get my shot; I have this fear that he won't help me now. It

has added to my stress in life in a way I did not need at all.

Sorry this is long; i probably am repeating myself. But I just can't believe

it! (Although when I went to the gynecologist and told her that I feel during

PMS i am almost suicidal, which is not normal; normally I am just bitchy, she

looked at me blankly. She said: I can put you on the pill but only for three

years (til 50); and I don't do well with the pill at all, it makes me depressed.

She mentioned antidepressants (drs must be glad to be able to go to that and

send you away) and pretty much left the room)

I really can understand now what my sister went through with her doctor

situation; the judgments they had, the unwillingness to understand her life and

how to really help her. Ironically, I have barely done drugs in my life. I

drink now at night, because it is the only thing that helps my sadness and pain,

the ONLY thing. I have one, maybe two drinks. That is it. I live alone, have

incredible grief, have a child who needs help in school but is being

refused (illegally in my opinion) and I have bad pain in the area of my body

that keeps me from doing what usually helps me which is hiking and dancing. (Dr

told me the only thing I could do is tread water...pay ten dollars a shot to go

in a pool somewhere...where I don't know to tread water)

I want to get into Public Health because I want to help people in a way that

actually helps. But maybe I should educate doctors ...I wonder if that is an

aspect of public health that I could get hired for....

Now there is an idea!

If you read this long, thank you

~patricia

Re: gaslighting

Hi ,

What a shame you're having joint pain.I don't have that,but have

had some health problems at times and I know how they can just wear you

down.Wow,that really sucks! Did you have problems getting a good painkiller from

your doctor that would work for you? I remember the last time I had a really bad

sore throat (not as bothersome in the long term as joint pain,but...) and my

doctor refused to give me codeine.It's like they're so paranoid people are going

to abuse painkillers,sometimes ridiculously so.I'm telling her it really really

hurt and she's telling me " I only prescribe codeine in total emergencies and

even then,if I can avoid it,I don't... " But it *was* an emergency!!!

Have you tried bio-identical progesterone cream? I know someone

who had joint pain related to the beginnings of real menopause and using that

helped her.Although it doesn't sound like that's what is causing yours? Just a

thought,anyway.

My ex wife...No,I don't think she's *really* happy.I don't want to

write too many possibly identifying details since after all I'm speaking of her

without her consent,but she did go on to have a very high profile job (on an

international level)--then after a couple of years she resigned.That is what

she'd do: land these prestige positions and then if there was even a hint that

she *might* be called onto the carpet for something (I'm talking relatively

minor stuff--nobody is perfect),instead of staying and fighting,she'd bow out

" gracefully " .Go on to the next job,then to the next one.

She can't bear the ignominy of (even passing defeat),so she cuts and

runs.As far as I know,that hasn't changed.If she called me and said: I have this

really wonderful relationship and I'm so happy with it/and/I found the perfect

job and I'm really sticking with it and I really trust in myself now to do it

well...I would simply be glad for her.I can't really say that,to be honest,about

most of my other exes.I'd still feel that pang of ego woundedness,like,what do

you mean,you're really happy (HAPPIER!) without me,but we really lived something

together the two of us.We really tried to make it work.I didn't doubt her love

for me and she knew I truly loved her.It's still there,just not as it was when

we were together.It's like the possessiveness of coupledom is gone but the good

will remains.

And I think both of us feel pain (for the other) that we weren't able

to be totally what we needed at the time or enough at the time to really be that

help that would rectify the past or heal us.Reading your posts (since much of

what you say is like her issues),I've had a gradual epiphany about what went

wrong.I see that I judged her--or misjudged her--harshly sometimes because of my

own issues.I feel like I understand her better,ten years too late.Which doesn't

mean that I want to get back with her.I don't.It's not the same anymore as it

was.But understanding better where she was coming from brings a fuller feeling

of closure.Or,it seems to me right now,a more mature assessment of the

relationship with alot less self pity clouding the memory of it .

What you said about not being able to act out by being bad or doing

drugs,ha,that was like my ex wife too.She was too conditioned to be responsible

to just " let go " like that.Like doing stuff like that was too alien to how she

was *supposed* to be.She drank sometimes when she was under alot of stress,but

not like an alcoholic (although when she did,she worried she'd become one).She

had a hard time in general relaxing,so her drinking was always only at home and

she had to have a " reason " for it: like I need some Cognac so I can sleep

tonight--and yet--I feel really " bad " for even having it but I need it but...One

time I jokingly said that we should just get really blasted together and see

what we got up to,just for fun...and she was horrified.

You shouldn't have been expected to take care of your mother when you

were in grade school!! Or expected to take care of her at all,of course.My ex

wife's Waif nada had " spells " sometimes lasting weeks when she would take to her

bed.And she was expected to nurse her.She said the same thing you did,about

being scared of her pain yet loving her--and frightened by how strange she was

acting.She had no one to go to say:*I* feel scared...it was all:what can you do

for your poor mother...your poor mother...who is the one who needs help...

And so it was extremely difficult for my ex wife to ever say: I have

a need...I need help...my need is legitimate and I expect it to be addressed.She

hoped that others would guess what she needed since saying it out loud would

lead to a rejection,she thought.

But if I told her: If you just tell me what you need and if I can

provide it,I will do so immediately or ASAP and I will be delighted to...then

she'd go back to the: It's not really that important,I'll adjust...I shouldn't

have brought it up,forget about it...

She definitely felt like she was not " allowed " to express her needs or

her pain,even when I *thought* I was giving her permission to.Like if I thought

she was complaining,I'd get tired of her.She seemed to think that her being sad

was some kind of mortal sin.

It's interesting what you said about your sister being a mirror to

you.Incidentally,my ex wife was close to her little sister from their teenage

years but never close to her older sister.She used to say that *I* was like a

mirror to her.

I think it's good that your roles are disappearing.That,now,you can

have more freedom to discover what *your* role is,for you.To no longer have to

fix your family,but to tend to yourself.You deserve that--it's not selfish.Not

at all.

>

> Hi ,

> This is very interesting what you wrote about your place in the family and

your *role* and what it seems that nadas *need*. I mean the three-child thing

can fill that pretty readily but the less than three not so good.

>

> I'm sorry that you felt *less-than* because of what your mother was acting

out. I was also the little adult. And also criticized for being that way at

different times. I don't even know really how this has shaped me; what I mean

is I don't know who I am without this persona. I think that is why I feel so

sad without my sister (I mean other obvious reasons) because she gave me a sort

of mirror to myself. She knew me. But she also would be one of those that

would say: you are too serious.

> So yeah, I was depended on heavily but in that weird way, not respected. And

so I became this adult person who accepts not being respected and doesn't even

know when it is happening.

>

> You are so very articulate in describing your ex-wife's feelings of

lost-ness and alienation. In a way I can relate; being *lost* not having a

sense of not understanding my pain in this part of my life and that is scary; I

cannot act out by being bad or doing drugs etc.

> That poor poor woman; how could someone treat a baby that way; their own

child? (My parents were not like that). This world is crazy.

> In a lot of ways her position sounds like mine. My brother was " the artist "

(golden one) and my sister was the baby; I had to take care of my mom with all

her crisises. One time when I was in elementary school, my mother cracked her

pelvis falling on the steps. I was somehow the one to stay home from school to

watch after her! I remember how scared I was because my mom was in so much

pain. There is this weird thing because you love your mom, but you are scared

of this *person* who is in pain and acting strange, like a wounded animal.

>

> So yeah...this weird attachment. And I think you are onto something...not

having a *role* at school, not having boundaries and everyone else just crowding

in. You are right; the feeling I get about not getting off the bus is one of

*protest*.

> I am also afraid of having people spot my flaws and I am very defensive.

When I would go to see Khasha (when he lived five minutes down the road, I would

spend two hours getting ready, even though it was fun, that says something).

>

> I can relate too, to what you say about your ex, saying things like: I have

no reason to be down, I'm just whining. I just wrote to Khasha about this

chronic sacral-iliac pain that I am just being a baby (because I am so sad about

it and complaining, like I am not allowed).

>

> That is so sad about her identifying with Casper. Sometimes I feel like a

ghost anymore. I mean, my role(s) are disappearing; I am not longer looking

after and trying to help my sister and her kids, my mom has my niece there, my

son is a teenager (I know he needs me but....in three years he is technically an

adult). I go my way every day with no one to see me or account to.

>

> Do you know if your ex is happy or what she is doing? I understand what you

are saying; you are very compassionate. It's funny, I feel that way towards

Khasha. I actually really love him, not the sort of superficial love of *what

can he do for me* but I just love him. I don't want him to be with anyone else

but I don't want him unhappy either.

> Ah well. I have another story to tell about my request for painkillers from

the new doctor I saw for my SI joint pain.

> ~patricia

> ps..thank you for articulating this so clearly it helps me a lot because

even though I am very analytical and thoughtful about things I don't understand

certain parts of myself.

>

>

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

> Problems? Ask our friendly List Manager for help at @... SEND HER

ANY POSTS THAT CONCERN YOU; DO NOT Respond ON THE GROUP.

>

> To order the KO bible " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " call 888-35-SHELL

() for your copy. We also refer to " Understanding the Borderline

Mother " (Lawson) and " Surviving the Borderline Parent, " (Roth) which you can

find at any bookstore. Welcome to the WTO community!

>

> From Randi Kreger, Owner BPDCentral, WTO Online Community and author SWOE

and the SWOE Workbook.

[Guest guest]

that's sad !! I always liked my father ( but he was a dishrag and

never protected or stood up for any of us)..until the fall of 2008, when he

called me a terrible daughter..and yelled at me for not caring about my

mother. I had been calling him every other day, but he called me a liar

and said I didn't....so I had the phone bill the next month copied it and

showed it to him ( and the golden child) to prove I had...and all my father

said was he didn't remember it...no apology, never! then 2 months later I

dont even remember what happened, but the parents called me a terrible

daughter again, and that was it...screw them !! They had forgotten

everything we've done for them over the years...twisted things around so

that no one but the golden child has ever done anything for them...I lost

what little respect I had for him

Jackie

Jackie~

Funny how YOU get the slap for speaking the truth and she gets to

do it to you because she is the mother. Face slapping is so humiliating.

One time, when I was in 9th grade, my grandparents were visiting. My mom

was fretting about it for weeks. I don't remember the whole thing but she

was worried she couldn't take their visit (that is the clue, the peek behind

the veil

of her pretense of a *perfect* childhood)

She was worried she would have to go into the mental ward at the hospital.

I kept

trying to boost her up and tell her she could do it. OF course what the

hell did I

know. I am not mad at her for this, just sad, you know? It's not like my

dad was there

helping her; mental fragility is tough to handle alone (My theory: my dad

had severe

mental illness in his family and so he avoided it like hell) I mean, perhaps

the mental

ward WAS where she needed to be. Only problem: us kids would be left with

the

aftermath.

Well on my last day of 9th grade I came home and was told that mom was in

the mental

ward (my grandparents had arrived). I felt so devastated, lost, I don't

know what. I

was attached to my mom regardless of these ways she was.

So at dinner one night, my grandparents and dad were discussing why my mom

was

in the hospital. They started talking about us kids, the house cleanliness

(and who

ever knows what else). I felt this rage build inside me; this

uncontrollable feeling (and

I *control* my self intensely).

And I think I yelled: Fuck You! (my sister recalled this vividly) and my

father slapped me across the face. (My sister called it the slap heard

round the world).

I was so angry at him and them (grand parents) because I knew the truth of

why she was gone

and they were making it like it was our faults. My grandfather later told

me to apologize to

my dad! I said okay (because it was my grandpa) but never did. No freaking

way!

I was 14 or 15 and I had some things figured out by then, and apologizing

for that was one thing I was not going to

do because I did NOT respect my dad for doing that to me. Obviously he did

not care or think about the pain

us children were in to have our mother gone like that.

~patricia