RE: RE: 2 Paramedic or EMT / Paramedic

[Guest guest]

Bigger picture. Where is the person sitting that is making the decision on

going double medic or not? In the drivers seat or the managers?

If it's about having two Paramedics on an ambulance, and someone calls off,

how hard is it to fill that slot? Are you placing your service in a dangerous

position of fines because of compliance? If you have double medic rigs, it's

less of an issue. You might come up short when people don't want to work,

however, it's better than short changing the city you protect with less than

MICU

capibility. I would like to believe, double medic rigs cover each other and less

errors are made. To top it off, you can take turns taking patients, and

lowers burnout.

As far as the person that does the payroll, you may have a different issue.

MONEY. It's not a huge leap, but if you add OT, it does add up quickly. Do you

agree, Joby?

just my .02

Ron

In a message dated 7/2/04 5:55:12 PM Central Daylight Time,

thomas.phillip@... writes:

> Think about this. If trauma or even medical scene times are important to

> you, than the dual paramedic unit is the way to go and here is why. With a

> EMT/Paramedic unit the paramedic must perform all necessary invasive skills on

> a critical trauma, i.e. IV, Intubation, Surgical Cric, ect. This will

> increase your scene time simply because your EMT is proficient nor certified

to

> perform those skills. This is not to say that they're not well seasoned EMT's

> out there that could probably perform every invasive skill, maybe even better

> than some paramedics, in which case they should get their butts in class and

> become paramedics.

>

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 7/2/04 5:55:54 PM Pacific Daylight Time,

mobile_1@... writes:

You know ETMC is the one who saves more lives by carrying only national

registered paramedics, (used to say that on their website).......as I recall.

Where did you get this statistic? I would like to see the proof of this

statement.

RAA

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 7/2/04 5:55:54 PM Pacific Daylight Time,

mobile_1@... writes:

You know ETMC is the one who saves more lives by carrying only national

registered paramedics, (used to say that on their website).......as I recall.

Where did you get this statistic? I would like to see the proof of this

statement.

RAA

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 7/2/04 5:55:54 PM Pacific Daylight Time,

mobile_1@... writes:

You know ETMC is the one who saves more lives by carrying only national

registered paramedics, (used to say that on their website).......as I recall.

Where did you get this statistic? I would like to see the proof of this

statement.

RAA

[Guest guest]

To my knowledge no such data exists. One of our great failings is that we

have collected so little data on the performance of our profession over the

years. It is difficult for us to prove or disprove much of anything about

how we work.

However, perhaps we could draw a corollary between this topic and the

previously accepted practice of working medical residents extremely long

hours. That practice is changing because it was recognized that

effectiveness became greatly diminished as the hours passed. A tired,

stressed out resident did not perform as well as when rested. With a two

medic system a paramedic would run only half the calls, allowing for more

rest and less stress, and perhaps allowing for better medical care.

Not even anecdote. Just speculation.

Regards,

Donn

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

D.E. (Donn) , LP, NREMT-P

Don't Miss EMStock 2005

www.EMStock.com

question

What is the reason that not many ems companies run double medics? It might

sound like a stupid question but humor me. Shortage? Cost? etc?

[Guest guest]

Donn, I agree that our profession has done a poor job of evaluating what we

do. However, I'm going to respectfully submit that working two paramedics

long hours only means that I have two tired paramedics. Or two tired of

whatever certification is on the truck for long hours.

Perhaps (and I know I've been flamed for this suggestion before), in order

to cut down on stress, burnout and the decrease in effectiveness/efficiency

that comes from tiredness, maybe we need to look at a different scheduling

model than the 24/48 from the fire service. Particularly when the EMS call

volume is more like the police (8-hour shifts) than the fire. (Yes, I know

that would mean changes in pay rates/periods/schedules/etc.)

Just another anecdotal thought.

Also, from my own experience as a basic, I liked working an EMT/EMT-P truck.

When it was a BLS call, I got time in the back and my Paramedic got front

seat time. On an ALS call, I got to sharpen my skills and knowledge about

ALS which in turn improved my EMT abilities. (That was on a volunteer system

with 12-hour shifts that averaged about 1200 to 1500 calls annually at that

time where we didn't hesitate to call in backup manpower or ALS staff when

needed.)I know it's not for everybody, may or may not be the best patient

care model, but you know what you've got to do when you have lemons and it

worked for us back then.

Barry

question

What is the reason that not many ems companies run double medics? It might

sound like a stupid question but humor me. Shortage? Cost? etc?

[Guest guest]

Think about this. If trauma or even medical scene times are important to you,

than the dual paramedic unit is the way to go and here is why. With a

EMT/Paramedic unit the paramedic must perform all necessary invasive skills on a

critical trauma, i.e. IV, Intubation, Surgical Cric, ect. This will increase

your scene time simply because your EMT is proficient nor certified to perform

those skills. This is not to say that they're not well seasoned EMT's out there

that could probably perform every invasive skill, maybe even better than some

paramedics, in which case they should get their butts in class and become

paramedics.

" Sims, " wrote:Without stating my opinion, let me ask a

question.

Suppose I were to submit that EMT / Paramedic systems save more lives than

Paramedic / Paramedic ones. Is there anyone who could prove me wrong? Not

with anecdote, years of experience, HFPA guideline, or war story - but with

research? Is there any published study that shows better outcomes for 2

paramedics? How about shorter scene times? Better performance at

individual skills? Is the any evidence at all on the subject?

Sims EMT-P

Director of Operations

Cypress Creek EMS

question

What is the reason that not many ems companies run double medics? It might

sound like a stupid question but humor me. Shortage? Cost? etc?

[Guest guest]

Most of the time it is better utilization of resources when companies do not run

double paramedic trucks. As everyone is aware there are not enough paramedics

to go around.

Fenske

EMS Supervisor

Cy-Fair Volunteer Fire Department

9630 Telge

Houston, TX 77095

Office

Fax

----- question<BR>

> <BR>

>What is the reason that not many ems companies run double medics?  It might<BR>

>sound like a stupid question but humor me.  Shortage? Cost? etc? <BR>

><BR>

><BR>

>

[Guest guest]

Most of the time it is better utilization of resources when companies do not run

double paramedic trucks. As everyone is aware there are not enough paramedics

to go around.

Fenske

EMS Supervisor

Cy-Fair Volunteer Fire Department

9630 Telge

Houston, TX 77095

Office

Fax

----- question<BR>

> <BR>

>What is the reason that not many ems companies run double medics?  It might<BR>

>sound like a stupid question but humor me.  Shortage? Cost? etc? <BR>

><BR>

><BR>

>

[Guest guest]

Most of the time it is better utilization of resources when companies do not run

double paramedic trucks. As everyone is aware there are not enough paramedics

to go around.

Fenske

EMS Supervisor

Cy-Fair Volunteer Fire Department

9630 Telge

Houston, TX 77095

Office

Fax

----- question<BR>

> <BR>

>What is the reason that not many ems companies run double medics?  It might<BR>

>sound like a stupid question but humor me.  Shortage? Cost? etc? <BR>

><BR>

><BR>

>

[Guest guest]

Thank You , We may run EMT\Paramedic crews, but only until we can get the

EMT trained to Paramedic level. We pay for it and as such make in a job

requirement that the EMT become a Paramedic immediately as classes are offered.

Henry Barber

wrote:

> Think about this. If trauma or even medical scene times are important to you,

than the dual paramedic unit is the way to go and here is why. With a

EMT/Paramedic unit the paramedic must perform all necessary invasive skills on a

critical trauma, i.e. IV, Intubation, Surgical Cric, ect. This will increase

your scene time simply because your EMT is proficient nor certified to perform

those skills. This is not to say that they're not well seasoned EMT's out there

that could probably perform every invasive skill, maybe even better than some

paramedics, in which case they should get their butts in class and become

paramedics.

>

> " Sims, " wrote:Without stating my opinion, let me ask a

question.

>

> Suppose I were to submit that EMT / Paramedic systems save more lives than

> Paramedic / Paramedic ones. Is there anyone who could prove me wrong? Not

> with anecdote, years of experience, HFPA guideline, or war story - but with

> research? Is there any published study that shows better outcomes for 2

> paramedics? How about shorter scene times? Better performance at

> individual skills? Is the any evidence at all on the subject?

>

> Sims EMT-P

> Director of Operations

> Cypress Creek EMS

>

> question

>

> What is the reason that not many ems companies run double medics? It might

> sound like a stupid question but humor me. Shortage? Cost? etc?

>

>

[Guest guest]

Thank You , We may run EMT\Paramedic crews, but only until we can get the

EMT trained to Paramedic level. We pay for it and as such make in a job

requirement that the EMT become a Paramedic immediately as classes are offered.

Henry Barber

wrote:

> Think about this. If trauma or even medical scene times are important to you,

than the dual paramedic unit is the way to go and here is why. With a

EMT/Paramedic unit the paramedic must perform all necessary invasive skills on a

critical trauma, i.e. IV, Intubation, Surgical Cric, ect. This will increase

your scene time simply because your EMT is proficient nor certified to perform

those skills. This is not to say that they're not well seasoned EMT's out there

that could probably perform every invasive skill, maybe even better than some

paramedics, in which case they should get their butts in class and become

paramedics.

>

> " Sims, " wrote:Without stating my opinion, let me ask a

question.

>

> Suppose I were to submit that EMT / Paramedic systems save more lives than

> Paramedic / Paramedic ones. Is there anyone who could prove me wrong? Not

> with anecdote, years of experience, HFPA guideline, or war story - but with

> research? Is there any published study that shows better outcomes for 2

> paramedics? How about shorter scene times? Better performance at

> individual skills? Is the any evidence at all on the subject?

>

> Sims EMT-P

> Director of Operations

> Cypress Creek EMS

>

> question

>

> What is the reason that not many ems companies run double medics? It might

> sound like a stupid question but humor me. Shortage? Cost? etc?

>

>

[Guest guest]

Thank You , We may run EMT\Paramedic crews, but only until we can get the

EMT trained to Paramedic level. We pay for it and as such make in a job

requirement that the EMT become a Paramedic immediately as classes are offered.

Henry Barber

wrote:

> Think about this. If trauma or even medical scene times are important to you,

than the dual paramedic unit is the way to go and here is why. With a

EMT/Paramedic unit the paramedic must perform all necessary invasive skills on a

critical trauma, i.e. IV, Intubation, Surgical Cric, ect. This will increase

your scene time simply because your EMT is proficient nor certified to perform

those skills. This is not to say that they're not well seasoned EMT's out there

that could probably perform every invasive skill, maybe even better than some

paramedics, in which case they should get their butts in class and become

paramedics.

>

> " Sims, " wrote:Without stating my opinion, let me ask a

question.

>

> Suppose I were to submit that EMT / Paramedic systems save more lives than

> Paramedic / Paramedic ones. Is there anyone who could prove me wrong? Not

> with anecdote, years of experience, HFPA guideline, or war story - but with

> research? Is there any published study that shows better outcomes for 2

> paramedics? How about shorter scene times? Better performance at

> individual skills? Is the any evidence at all on the subject?

>

> Sims EMT-P

> Director of Operations

> Cypress Creek EMS

>

> question

>

> What is the reason that not many ems companies run double medics? It might

> sound like a stupid question but humor me. Shortage? Cost? etc?

>

>

[Guest guest]

Ron,

I'm curious about your statement

" If it's about having two Paramedics on an ambulance, and someone calls

off,

> how hard is it to fill that slot? Are you placing your service in a

dangerous

> position of fines because of compliance? If you have double medic rigs,

it's

> less of an issue. You might come up short when people don't want to work,

> however, it's better than short changing the city you protect with less

than MICU

> capibility. "

What does the 2 medic system issue have to do with coverage and shutting

down MICU's? Just curious.

We staff our department with extra staff every every day. This covers

vacation/sick/ etc. When we have more then that absent, then we tag MOT

(mandatory OT). If that doesn't do it then the standard is...You don't go

home until you get relieved by the next medic. Simple, no closing of

stations etc. That is just not an option.

Re: RE: 2 Paramedic or EMT / Paramedic

>

>

> Bigger picture. Where is the person sitting that is making the decision on

> going double medic or not? In the drivers seat or the managers?

>

> If it's about having two Paramedics on an ambulance, and someone calls

off,

> how hard is it to fill that slot? Are you placing your service in a

dangerous

> position of fines because of compliance? If you have double medic rigs,

it's

> less of an issue. You might come up short when people don't want to work,

> however, it's better than short changing the city you protect with less

than MICU

> capibility. I would like to believe, double medic rigs cover each other

and less

> errors are made. To top it off, you can take turns taking patients, and

> lowers burnout.

>

> As far as the person that does the payroll, you may have a different

issue.

> MONEY. It's not a huge leap, but if you add OT, it does add up quickly. Do

you

> agree, Joby?

>

> just my .02

>

> Ron

>

>

>

>

> In a message dated 7/2/04 5:55:12 PM Central Daylight Time,

> thomas.phillip@... writes:

>

> > Think about this. If trauma or even medical scene times are important

to

> > you, than the dual paramedic unit is the way to go and here is why.

With a

> > EMT/Paramedic unit the paramedic must perform all necessary invasive

skills on

> > a critical trauma, i.e. IV, Intubation, Surgical Cric, ect. This will

> > increase your scene time simply because your EMT is proficient nor

certified to

> > perform those skills. This is not to say that they're not well seasoned

EMT's

> > out there that could probably perform every invasive skill, maybe even

better

> > than some paramedics, in which case they should get their butts in class

and

> > become paramedics.

> >

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Ron,

I'm curious about your statement

" If it's about having two Paramedics on an ambulance, and someone calls

off,

> how hard is it to fill that slot? Are you placing your service in a

dangerous

> position of fines because of compliance? If you have double medic rigs,

it's

> less of an issue. You might come up short when people don't want to work,

> however, it's better than short changing the city you protect with less

than MICU

> capibility. "

What does the 2 medic system issue have to do with coverage and shutting

down MICU's? Just curious.

We staff our department with extra staff every every day. This covers

vacation/sick/ etc. When we have more then that absent, then we tag MOT

(mandatory OT). If that doesn't do it then the standard is...You don't go

home until you get relieved by the next medic. Simple, no closing of

stations etc. That is just not an option.

Re: RE: 2 Paramedic or EMT / Paramedic

>

>

> Bigger picture. Where is the person sitting that is making the decision on

> going double medic or not? In the drivers seat or the managers?

>

> If it's about having two Paramedics on an ambulance, and someone calls

off,

> how hard is it to fill that slot? Are you placing your service in a

dangerous

> position of fines because of compliance? If you have double medic rigs,

it's

> less of an issue. You might come up short when people don't want to work,

> however, it's better than short changing the city you protect with less

than MICU

> capibility. I would like to believe, double medic rigs cover each other

and less

> errors are made. To top it off, you can take turns taking patients, and

> lowers burnout.

>

> As far as the person that does the payroll, you may have a different

issue.

> MONEY. It's not a huge leap, but if you add OT, it does add up quickly. Do

you

> agree, Joby?

>

> just my .02

>

> Ron

>

>

>

>

> In a message dated 7/2/04 5:55:12 PM Central Daylight Time,

> thomas.phillip@... writes:

>

> > Think about this. If trauma or even medical scene times are important

to

> > you, than the dual paramedic unit is the way to go and here is why.

With a

> > EMT/Paramedic unit the paramedic must perform all necessary invasive

skills on

> > a critical trauma, i.e. IV, Intubation, Surgical Cric, ect. This will

> > increase your scene time simply because your EMT is proficient nor

certified to

> > perform those skills. This is not to say that they're not well seasoned

EMT's

> > out there that could probably perform every invasive skill, maybe even

better

> > than some paramedics, in which case they should get their butts in class

and

> > become paramedics.

> >

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Ron,

I'm curious about your statement

" If it's about having two Paramedics on an ambulance, and someone calls

off,

> how hard is it to fill that slot? Are you placing your service in a

dangerous

> position of fines because of compliance? If you have double medic rigs,

it's

> less of an issue. You might come up short when people don't want to work,

> however, it's better than short changing the city you protect with less

than MICU

> capibility. "

What does the 2 medic system issue have to do with coverage and shutting

down MICU's? Just curious.

We staff our department with extra staff every every day. This covers

vacation/sick/ etc. When we have more then that absent, then we tag MOT

(mandatory OT). If that doesn't do it then the standard is...You don't go

home until you get relieved by the next medic. Simple, no closing of

stations etc. That is just not an option.

Re: RE: 2 Paramedic or EMT / Paramedic

>

>

> Bigger picture. Where is the person sitting that is making the decision on

> going double medic or not? In the drivers seat or the managers?

>

> If it's about having two Paramedics on an ambulance, and someone calls

off,

> how hard is it to fill that slot? Are you placing your service in a

dangerous

> position of fines because of compliance? If you have double medic rigs,

it's

> less of an issue. You might come up short when people don't want to work,

> however, it's better than short changing the city you protect with less

than MICU

> capibility. I would like to believe, double medic rigs cover each other

and less

> errors are made. To top it off, you can take turns taking patients, and

> lowers burnout.

>

> As far as the person that does the payroll, you may have a different

issue.

> MONEY. It's not a huge leap, but if you add OT, it does add up quickly. Do

you

> agree, Joby?

>

> just my .02

>

> Ron

>

>

>

>

> In a message dated 7/2/04 5:55:12 PM Central Daylight Time,

> thomas.phillip@... writes:

>

> > Think about this. If trauma or even medical scene times are important

to

> > you, than the dual paramedic unit is the way to go and here is why.

With a

> > EMT/Paramedic unit the paramedic must perform all necessary invasive

skills on

> > a critical trauma, i.e. IV, Intubation, Surgical Cric, ect. This will

> > increase your scene time simply because your EMT is proficient nor

certified to

> > perform those skills. This is not to say that they're not well seasoned

EMT's

> > out there that could probably perform every invasive skill, maybe even

better

> > than some paramedics, in which case they should get their butts in class

and

> > become paramedics.

> >

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

You know ETMC is the one who saves more lives by carrying only national

registered paramedics, (used to say that on their website).......as I recall.

Re: RE: 2 Paramedic or EMT / Paramedic

>

>

> Bigger picture. Where is the person sitting that is making the decision on

> going double medic or not? In the drivers seat or the managers?

>

> If it's about having two Paramedics on an ambulance, and someone calls

off,

> how hard is it to fill that slot? Are you placing your service in a

dangerous

> position of fines because of compliance? If you have double medic rigs,

it's

> less of an issue. You might come up short when people don't want to work,

> however, it's better than short changing the city you protect with less

than MICU

> capibility. I would like to believe, double medic rigs cover each other

and less

> errors are made. To top it off, you can take turns taking patients, and

> lowers burnout.

>

> As far as the person that does the payroll, you may have a different

issue.

> MONEY. It's not a huge leap, but if you add OT, it does add up quickly. Do

you

> agree, Joby?

>

> just my .02

>

> Ron

>

>

>

>

> In a message dated 7/2/04 5:55:12 PM Central Daylight Time,

> thomas.phillip@... writes:

>

> > Think about this. If trauma or even medical scene times are important

to

> > you, than the dual paramedic unit is the way to go and here is why.

With a

> > EMT/Paramedic unit the paramedic must perform all necessary invasive

skills on

> > a critical trauma, i.e. IV, Intubation, Surgical Cric, ect. This will

> > increase your scene time simply because your EMT is proficient nor

certified to

> > perform those skills. This is not to say that they're not well seasoned

EMT's

> > out there that could probably perform every invasive skill, maybe even

better

> > than some paramedics, in which case they should get their butts in class

and

> > become paramedics.

> >

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

You know ETMC is the one who saves more lives by carrying only national

registered paramedics, (used to say that on their website).......as I recall.

Re: RE: 2 Paramedic or EMT / Paramedic

>

>

> Bigger picture. Where is the person sitting that is making the decision on

> going double medic or not? In the drivers seat or the managers?

>

> If it's about having two Paramedics on an ambulance, and someone calls

off,

> how hard is it to fill that slot? Are you placing your service in a

dangerous

> position of fines because of compliance? If you have double medic rigs,

it's

> less of an issue. You might come up short when people don't want to work,

> however, it's better than short changing the city you protect with less

than MICU

> capibility. I would like to believe, double medic rigs cover each other

and less

> errors are made. To top it off, you can take turns taking patients, and

> lowers burnout.

>

> As far as the person that does the payroll, you may have a different

issue.

> MONEY. It's not a huge leap, but if you add OT, it does add up quickly. Do

you

> agree, Joby?

>

> just my .02

>

> Ron

>

>

>

>

> In a message dated 7/2/04 5:55:12 PM Central Daylight Time,

> thomas.phillip@... writes:

>

> > Think about this. If trauma or even medical scene times are important

to

> > you, than the dual paramedic unit is the way to go and here is why.

With a

> > EMT/Paramedic unit the paramedic must perform all necessary invasive

skills on

> > a critical trauma, i.e. IV, Intubation, Surgical Cric, ect. This will

> > increase your scene time simply because your EMT is proficient nor

certified to

> > perform those skills. This is not to say that they're not well seasoned

EMT's

> > out there that could probably perform every invasive skill, maybe even

better

> > than some paramedics, in which case they should get their butts in class

and

> > become paramedics.

> >

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

You know ETMC is the one who saves more lives by carrying only national

registered paramedics, (used to say that on their website).......as I recall.

Re: RE: 2 Paramedic or EMT / Paramedic

>

>

> Bigger picture. Where is the person sitting that is making the decision on

> going double medic or not? In the drivers seat or the managers?

>

> If it's about having two Paramedics on an ambulance, and someone calls

off,

> how hard is it to fill that slot? Are you placing your service in a

dangerous

> position of fines because of compliance? If you have double medic rigs,

it's

> less of an issue. You might come up short when people don't want to work,

> however, it's better than short changing the city you protect with less

than MICU

> capibility. I would like to believe, double medic rigs cover each other

and less

> errors are made. To top it off, you can take turns taking patients, and

> lowers burnout.

>

> As far as the person that does the payroll, you may have a different

issue.

> MONEY. It's not a huge leap, but if you add OT, it does add up quickly. Do

you

> agree, Joby?

>

> just my .02

>

> Ron

>

>

>

>

> In a message dated 7/2/04 5:55:12 PM Central Daylight Time,

> thomas.phillip@... writes:

>

> > Think about this. If trauma or even medical scene times are important

to

> > you, than the dual paramedic unit is the way to go and here is why.

With a

> > EMT/Paramedic unit the paramedic must perform all necessary invasive

skills on

> > a critical trauma, i.e. IV, Intubation, Surgical Cric, ect. This will

> > increase your scene time simply because your EMT is proficient nor

certified to

> > perform those skills. This is not to say that they're not well seasoned

EMT's

> > out there that could probably perform every invasive skill, maybe even

better

> > than some paramedics, in which case they should get their butts in class

and

> > become paramedics.

> >

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

It was on the old version of the ETMC EMS website. I would like to see proof

of this statistic too... The way it sounded there is that they had done some

kind of research....

Re: RE: 2 Paramedic or EMT / Paramedic

In a message dated 7/2/04 5:55:54 PM Pacific Daylight Time,

mobile_1@... writes:

You know ETMC is the one who saves more lives by carrying only national

registered paramedics, (used to say that on their website).......as I

recall.

Where did you get this statistic? I would like to see the proof of this

statement.

RAA

[Guest guest]

It was on the old version of the ETMC EMS website. I would like to see proof

of this statistic too... The way it sounded there is that they had done some

kind of research....

Re: RE: 2 Paramedic or EMT / Paramedic

In a message dated 7/2/04 5:55:54 PM Pacific Daylight Time,

mobile_1@... writes:

You know ETMC is the one who saves more lives by carrying only national

registered paramedics, (used to say that on their website).......as I

recall.

Where did you get this statistic? I would like to see the proof of this

statement.

RAA

[Guest guest]

It was nothing but advertising hype. The " all NREMT " concept is a Jack

Stout concept used to sell cities and counties on awarding the contract to one

of

his services. ETMC was " made over " by Jack Stout beginning in the 1990's.

ETMC had perfectly good medics before they were " Stoutized, " many of them

were and are my friends.

After being " Stouted " the service adopted the NREMT concept and put it into

their contracts. The reason that they now say that there are some counties

where non-NR medics are allowed is that they took that clause out of the

contracts they signed with those counties. The counties where they still have

NREMT medic requirements are on automatically renewing contracts that are

designed to perpetuate ETMC's lock on the systems. This is a part of Stout's

comprehensive EMS model.

There is no doubt in my mind that after they adopted the NREMT requirement

the quality of the average medic there went up. The good ones who were

already there passed NREMT with ease, and the service's educational program,

which

is a Paramedic level training program, changed to meet the increased

requirements and has been quite successful in turning out medics that pass NR.

At

the same time, I was director of one of the two other paramedic programs in

town. I was at Tyler Junior College where we had an associate degree program.

Mother Frances Hospital, the arch enemy of ETMC, also had a paramedic

program, so there were three programs in town. We all were influenced by

ETMC's

policy to teach in such a way that our students could pass NR. To that end,

the policy was a tremendously good influence.

I can say with personal knowledge that all three of the programs prepared

their students well for the NREMT exam and all three programs had a very high

pass rate on the NR.

But I would not be able to say that the fact that their medics, or some of

them, were NREMT had any major effect upon the number of lives saved. What

did have an effect was and is good education and good systems. We all taught

the DOT National Standard curriculum. All of it. That was what enabled the

students from the Tyler programs to do so well on the NREMT. All the programs

had great instructors, many of them interchangeable among programs, and the

education program medical directors, Dr. Bill and Dr. Ted Gould, were

as top notch as you can get. All the programs in Tyler had superb backing at

that time (not any more at the college) and all the equipment, supplies, and

educational toys you could ever want. Passing NREMT was simply incidental.

It was and is education that counts.

Best,

Gene Gandy

In a message dated 7/2/2004 11:15:15 PM Central Daylight Time,

mobile_1@... writes:

It was on the old version of the ETMC EMS website. I would like to see

proof of this statistic too... The way it sounded there is that they had

done some kind of research....

----- Original Message -----

From: RaaEMS605@...

To:

Sent: Friday, July 02, 2004 8:53 PM

Subject: Re: RE: 2 Paramedic or EMT / Paramedic

In a message dated 7/2/04 5:55:54 PM Pacific Daylight Time,

mobile_1@... writes:

You know ETMC is the one who saves more lives by carrying only national

registered paramedics, (used to say that on their website).......as I

recall.

Where did you get this statistic? I would like to see the proof of this

statement.

RAA

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Guest guest]

It was nothing but advertising hype. The " all NREMT " concept is a Jack

Stout concept used to sell cities and counties on awarding the contract to one

of

his services. ETMC was " made over " by Jack Stout beginning in the 1990's.

ETMC had perfectly good medics before they were " Stoutized, " many of them

were and are my friends.

After being " Stouted " the service adopted the NREMT concept and put it into

their contracts. The reason that they now say that there are some counties

where non-NR medics are allowed is that they took that clause out of the

contracts they signed with those counties. The counties where they still have

NREMT medic requirements are on automatically renewing contracts that are

designed to perpetuate ETMC's lock on the systems. This is a part of Stout's

comprehensive EMS model.

There is no doubt in my mind that after they adopted the NREMT requirement

the quality of the average medic there went up. The good ones who were

already there passed NREMT with ease, and the service's educational program,

which

is a Paramedic level training program, changed to meet the increased

requirements and has been quite successful in turning out medics that pass NR.

At

the same time, I was director of one of the two other paramedic programs in

town. I was at Tyler Junior College where we had an associate degree program.

Mother Frances Hospital, the arch enemy of ETMC, also had a paramedic

program, so there were three programs in town. We all were influenced by

ETMC's

policy to teach in such a way that our students could pass NR. To that end,

the policy was a tremendously good influence.

I can say with personal knowledge that all three of the programs prepared

their students well for the NREMT exam and all three programs had a very high

pass rate on the NR.

But I would not be able to say that the fact that their medics, or some of

them, were NREMT had any major effect upon the number of lives saved. What

did have an effect was and is good education and good systems. We all taught

the DOT National Standard curriculum. All of it. That was what enabled the

students from the Tyler programs to do so well on the NREMT. All the programs

had great instructors, many of them interchangeable among programs, and the

education program medical directors, Dr. Bill and Dr. Ted Gould, were

as top notch as you can get. All the programs in Tyler had superb backing at

that time (not any more at the college) and all the equipment, supplies, and

educational toys you could ever want. Passing NREMT was simply incidental.

It was and is education that counts.

Best,

Gene Gandy

In a message dated 7/2/2004 11:15:15 PM Central Daylight Time,

mobile_1@... writes:

It was on the old version of the ETMC EMS website. I would like to see

proof of this statistic too... The way it sounded there is that they had

done some kind of research....

----- Original Message -----

From: RaaEMS605@...

To:

Sent: Friday, July 02, 2004 8:53 PM

Subject: Re: RE: 2 Paramedic or EMT / Paramedic

In a message dated 7/2/04 5:55:54 PM Pacific Daylight Time,

mobile_1@... writes:

You know ETMC is the one who saves more lives by carrying only national

registered paramedics, (used to say that on their website).......as I

recall.

Where did you get this statistic? I would like to see the proof of this

statement.

RAA

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Guest guest]

Perhaps one should consider the types of calls received. Some services may

receive more ALS than BLS, and vice a versa. What do most calls turn out to be?

Sure, it would be great for a Paramedic to have a fellow paramedic to bounce

ideas off of, that is part of learning. But as someone else pointed out, some

places have a harder time finding enough P's.

Meredith

question

What is the reason that not many ems companies run double medics? It might

sound like a stupid question but humor me. Shortage? Cost? etc?