Guest guest Posted June 1, 2004 Report Share Posted June 1, 2004 Hi Beth, Gut pathogens can produce ketones. Many ASD children have ketosis even when they are getting plenty of carbs on a regular diet or on GFCF. I have read on another list about kids with ketosis whose ketosis goes away when they do SCD. Maybe your son is not digesting some SCD legal food and that is feeding the gut bugs. When you joined our list, we did not have the " stages of the diet guide " . There is scientific evidence that the difficult to digest carbohydrates can feed gut bacteria. http://babcock.cals.wisc.edu/de/html/ch3/nutrition_eng_ch3.ht I have reprinted some excerpts from the article about how disaccarides and polysaccarides(forbidden on SCD). It is better to read the whole article but I shortened it for people who are busy . ------------------------------------------------------ Non-fibrous carbohydrates (starches and simple sugars) are fermented rapidly and almost completely in the rumen. The non-fibrous carbohydrates (present in many concentrates) promote the production of propionic acid whereas the fibrous carbohydrates (present primarily in forages) stimulate the production of acetic acid in the rumen Thus, excess concentrates in the ration may lead to fat cows. Continued feeding of this type of ration may have a detrimental effect on the health of the cow, which is more likely to have a difficult calving and to develop fatty liver or ketosis. ------------------------------------------------------- All the best,Mimi > I wanted to post another finding from my son's OAT from Great > Plains, in addiion to the elevated arabinose level. Two markers for > fatty acid metabolities are very, very high: > > 3-hydroxybutyric 100.21 (ref range 0-10) > acetoacetic 215.02 (ref range 0-10) > > The interpretation says these are ketones and indicate increased > metabolic utilization of fatty acids associated with diabetes > mellitis, fasting or dieting, ESPECIALLY KETOGENIC DIETS, illness > such as nausea or flu, and many other causes. > > Natually, I am concerned about ketosis. His typical diet looks like: > > SCD pancakes for breakfast > Fruit or nut baked good for am sncak > Meat and veggies for lunch > Fruit or nut baked good for pm snack > Meat and veggies for dinner > Fruit or nut baked good for dessert > > Would using the ketone urine strips be of value here? Any other > possible explanations for these markedly elevated acids? > > Thanks, > > Beth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 1, 2004 Report Share Posted June 1, 2004 Hi Beth, Gut pathogens can produce ketones. Many ASD children have ketosis even when they are getting plenty of carbs on a regular diet or on GFCF. I have read on another list about kids with ketosis whose ketosis goes away when they do SCD. Maybe your son is not digesting some SCD legal food and that is feeding the gut bugs. When you joined our list, we did not have the " stages of the diet guide " . There is scientific evidence that the difficult to digest carbohydrates can feed gut bacteria. http://babcock.cals.wisc.edu/de/html/ch3/nutrition_eng_ch3.ht I have reprinted some excerpts from the article about how disaccarides and polysaccarides(forbidden on SCD). It is better to read the whole article but I shortened it for people who are busy . ------------------------------------------------------ Non-fibrous carbohydrates (starches and simple sugars) are fermented rapidly and almost completely in the rumen. The non-fibrous carbohydrates (present in many concentrates) promote the production of propionic acid whereas the fibrous carbohydrates (present primarily in forages) stimulate the production of acetic acid in the rumen Thus, excess concentrates in the ration may lead to fat cows. Continued feeding of this type of ration may have a detrimental effect on the health of the cow, which is more likely to have a difficult calving and to develop fatty liver or ketosis. ------------------------------------------------------- All the best,Mimi > I wanted to post another finding from my son's OAT from Great > Plains, in addiion to the elevated arabinose level. Two markers for > fatty acid metabolities are very, very high: > > 3-hydroxybutyric 100.21 (ref range 0-10) > acetoacetic 215.02 (ref range 0-10) > > The interpretation says these are ketones and indicate increased > metabolic utilization of fatty acids associated with diabetes > mellitis, fasting or dieting, ESPECIALLY KETOGENIC DIETS, illness > such as nausea or flu, and many other causes. > > Natually, I am concerned about ketosis. His typical diet looks like: > > SCD pancakes for breakfast > Fruit or nut baked good for am sncak > Meat and veggies for lunch > Fruit or nut baked good for pm snack > Meat and veggies for dinner > Fruit or nut baked good for dessert > > Would using the ketone urine strips be of value here? Any other > possible explanations for these markedly elevated acids? > > Thanks, > > Beth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 1, 2004 Report Share Posted June 1, 2004 Hi Beth, Gut pathogens can produce ketones. Many ASD children have ketosis even when they are getting plenty of carbs on a regular diet or on GFCF. I have read on another list about kids with ketosis whose ketosis goes away when they do SCD. Maybe your son is not digesting some SCD legal food and that is feeding the gut bugs. When you joined our list, we did not have the " stages of the diet guide " . There is scientific evidence that the difficult to digest carbohydrates can feed gut bacteria. http://babcock.cals.wisc.edu/de/html/ch3/nutrition_eng_ch3.ht I have reprinted some excerpts from the article about how disaccarides and polysaccarides(forbidden on SCD). It is better to read the whole article but I shortened it for people who are busy . ------------------------------------------------------ Non-fibrous carbohydrates (starches and simple sugars) are fermented rapidly and almost completely in the rumen. The non-fibrous carbohydrates (present in many concentrates) promote the production of propionic acid whereas the fibrous carbohydrates (present primarily in forages) stimulate the production of acetic acid in the rumen Thus, excess concentrates in the ration may lead to fat cows. Continued feeding of this type of ration may have a detrimental effect on the health of the cow, which is more likely to have a difficult calving and to develop fatty liver or ketosis. ------------------------------------------------------- All the best,Mimi > I wanted to post another finding from my son's OAT from Great > Plains, in addiion to the elevated arabinose level. Two markers for > fatty acid metabolities are very, very high: > > 3-hydroxybutyric 100.21 (ref range 0-10) > acetoacetic 215.02 (ref range 0-10) > > The interpretation says these are ketones and indicate increased > metabolic utilization of fatty acids associated with diabetes > mellitis, fasting or dieting, ESPECIALLY KETOGENIC DIETS, illness > such as nausea or flu, and many other causes. > > Natually, I am concerned about ketosis. His typical diet looks like: > > SCD pancakes for breakfast > Fruit or nut baked good for am sncak > Meat and veggies for lunch > Fruit or nut baked good for pm snack > Meat and veggies for dinner > Fruit or nut baked good for dessert > > Would using the ketone urine strips be of value here? Any other > possible explanations for these markedly elevated acids? > > Thanks, > > Beth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 1, 2004 Report Share Posted June 1, 2004 Mimi, I am a little unclear on what you are saying. My son has been SCD legal for a year and a half. It is only in the last couple of weeks that I am considering adding in some non-SCD legal probiotics to see if we can change his clinical picture. These high fatty acid metabolites and high arabinose levels have me wondering what else we should be doing differently. In addition, his stool test is showing no growth of acidophilus or bifidus despite supplementing straight acidophilus. The only changes to the diet I can think to make are to limit fruit and honey, and perhaps soak the nut flour to make it more digestable (this is a BED strategy that I recently picked up on). What are your thoughts? Beth > > I wanted to post another finding from my son's OAT from Great > > Plains, in addiion to the elevated arabinose level. Two markers for > > fatty acid metabolities are very, very high: > > > > 3-hydroxybutyric 100.21 (ref range 0-10) > > acetoacetic 215.02 (ref range 0-10) > > > > The interpretation says these are ketones and indicate increased > > metabolic utilization of fatty acids associated with diabetes > > mellitis, fasting or dieting, ESPECIALLY KETOGENIC DIETS, illness > > such as nausea or flu, and many other causes. > > > > Natually, I am concerned about ketosis. His typical diet looks like: > > > > SCD pancakes for breakfast > > Fruit or nut baked good for am sncak > > Meat and veggies for lunch > > Fruit or nut baked good for pm snack > > Meat and veggies for dinner > > Fruit or nut baked good for dessert > > > > Would using the ketone urine strips be of value here? Any other > > possible explanations for these markedly elevated acids? > > > > Thanks, > > > > Beth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 1, 2004 Report Share Posted June 1, 2004 Mimi, I am a little unclear on what you are saying. My son has been SCD legal for a year and a half. It is only in the last couple of weeks that I am considering adding in some non-SCD legal probiotics to see if we can change his clinical picture. These high fatty acid metabolites and high arabinose levels have me wondering what else we should be doing differently. In addition, his stool test is showing no growth of acidophilus or bifidus despite supplementing straight acidophilus. The only changes to the diet I can think to make are to limit fruit and honey, and perhaps soak the nut flour to make it more digestable (this is a BED strategy that I recently picked up on). What are your thoughts? Beth > > I wanted to post another finding from my son's OAT from Great > > Plains, in addiion to the elevated arabinose level. Two markers for > > fatty acid metabolities are very, very high: > > > > 3-hydroxybutyric 100.21 (ref range 0-10) > > acetoacetic 215.02 (ref range 0-10) > > > > The interpretation says these are ketones and indicate increased > > metabolic utilization of fatty acids associated with diabetes > > mellitis, fasting or dieting, ESPECIALLY KETOGENIC DIETS, illness > > such as nausea or flu, and many other causes. > > > > Natually, I am concerned about ketosis. His typical diet looks like: > > > > SCD pancakes for breakfast > > Fruit or nut baked good for am sncak > > Meat and veggies for lunch > > Fruit or nut baked good for pm snack > > Meat and veggies for dinner > > Fruit or nut baked good for dessert > > > > Would using the ketone urine strips be of value here? Any other > > possible explanations for these markedly elevated acids? > > > > Thanks, > > > > Beth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 1, 2004 Report Share Posted June 1, 2004 Beth, I also remember Elaine stating that gut pathogens can produce ketones when they are dying off, especially. Could this have been a result of the prescription anti-fungal/anti-bacterials? At any rate, even though he was SCD legal all this time, he seems to have still had some bad guys down there until recently, right? I am about to nod off for the evening..... but seems like you said earlier that he'd still had some clostridia, etc? Patti Re: Ketosis? Mimi, I am a little unclear on what you are saying. My son has been SCD legal for a year and a half. It is only in the last couple of weeks that I am considering adding in some non-SCD legal probiotics to see if we can change his clinical picture. These high fatty acid metabolites and high arabinose levels have me wondering what else we should be doing differently. In addition, his stool test is showing no growth of acidophilus or bifidus despite supplementing straight acidophilus. The only changes to the diet I can think to make are to limit fruit and honey, and perhaps soak the nut flour to make it more digestable (this is a BED strategy that I recently picked up on). What are your thoughts? Beth > > I wanted to post another finding from my son's OAT from Great > > Plains, in addiion to the elevated arabinose level. Two markers for > > fatty acid metabolities are very, very high: > > > > 3-hydroxybutyric 100.21 (ref range 0-10) > > acetoacetic 215.02 (ref range 0-10) > > > > The interpretation says these are ketones and indicate increased > > metabolic utilization of fatty acids associated with diabetes > > mellitis, fasting or dieting, ESPECIALLY KETOGENIC DIETS, illness > > such as nausea or flu, and many other causes. > > > > Natually, I am concerned about ketosis. His typical diet looks like: > > > > SCD pancakes for breakfast > > Fruit or nut baked good for am sncak > > Meat and veggies for lunch > > Fruit or nut baked good for pm snack > > Meat and veggies for dinner > > Fruit or nut baked good for dessert > > > > Would using the ketone urine strips be of value here? Any other > > possible explanations for these markedly elevated acids? > > > > Thanks, > > > > Beth For information on the Specific Carbohydrate Diet, please read the book _Breaking the Vicious Cycle_ by Elaine Gottschall and read the following websites: http://www.breakingtheviciouscycle.info and http://www.pecanbread.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 1, 2004 Report Share Posted June 1, 2004 Beth, I also remember Elaine stating that gut pathogens can produce ketones when they are dying off, especially. Could this have been a result of the prescription anti-fungal/anti-bacterials? At any rate, even though he was SCD legal all this time, he seems to have still had some bad guys down there until recently, right? I am about to nod off for the evening..... but seems like you said earlier that he'd still had some clostridia, etc? Patti Re: Ketosis? Mimi, I am a little unclear on what you are saying. My son has been SCD legal for a year and a half. It is only in the last couple of weeks that I am considering adding in some non-SCD legal probiotics to see if we can change his clinical picture. These high fatty acid metabolites and high arabinose levels have me wondering what else we should be doing differently. In addition, his stool test is showing no growth of acidophilus or bifidus despite supplementing straight acidophilus. The only changes to the diet I can think to make are to limit fruit and honey, and perhaps soak the nut flour to make it more digestable (this is a BED strategy that I recently picked up on). What are your thoughts? Beth > > I wanted to post another finding from my son's OAT from Great > > Plains, in addiion to the elevated arabinose level. Two markers for > > fatty acid metabolities are very, very high: > > > > 3-hydroxybutyric 100.21 (ref range 0-10) > > acetoacetic 215.02 (ref range 0-10) > > > > The interpretation says these are ketones and indicate increased > > metabolic utilization of fatty acids associated with diabetes > > mellitis, fasting or dieting, ESPECIALLY KETOGENIC DIETS, illness > > such as nausea or flu, and many other causes. > > > > Natually, I am concerned about ketosis. His typical diet looks like: > > > > SCD pancakes for breakfast > > Fruit or nut baked good for am sncak > > Meat and veggies for lunch > > Fruit or nut baked good for pm snack > > Meat and veggies for dinner > > Fruit or nut baked good for dessert > > > > Would using the ketone urine strips be of value here? Any other > > possible explanations for these markedly elevated acids? > > > > Thanks, > > > > Beth For information on the Specific Carbohydrate Diet, please read the book _Breaking the Vicious Cycle_ by Elaine Gottschall and read the following websites: http://www.breakingtheviciouscycle.info and http://www.pecanbread.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 1, 2004 Report Share Posted June 1, 2004 Beth, I also remember Elaine stating that gut pathogens can produce ketones when they are dying off, especially. Could this have been a result of the prescription anti-fungal/anti-bacterials? At any rate, even though he was SCD legal all this time, he seems to have still had some bad guys down there until recently, right? I am about to nod off for the evening..... but seems like you said earlier that he'd still had some clostridia, etc? Patti Re: Ketosis? Mimi, I am a little unclear on what you are saying. My son has been SCD legal for a year and a half. It is only in the last couple of weeks that I am considering adding in some non-SCD legal probiotics to see if we can change his clinical picture. These high fatty acid metabolites and high arabinose levels have me wondering what else we should be doing differently. In addition, his stool test is showing no growth of acidophilus or bifidus despite supplementing straight acidophilus. The only changes to the diet I can think to make are to limit fruit and honey, and perhaps soak the nut flour to make it more digestable (this is a BED strategy that I recently picked up on). What are your thoughts? Beth > > I wanted to post another finding from my son's OAT from Great > > Plains, in addiion to the elevated arabinose level. Two markers for > > fatty acid metabolities are very, very high: > > > > 3-hydroxybutyric 100.21 (ref range 0-10) > > acetoacetic 215.02 (ref range 0-10) > > > > The interpretation says these are ketones and indicate increased > > metabolic utilization of fatty acids associated with diabetes > > mellitis, fasting or dieting, ESPECIALLY KETOGENIC DIETS, illness > > such as nausea or flu, and many other causes. > > > > Natually, I am concerned about ketosis. His typical diet looks like: > > > > SCD pancakes for breakfast > > Fruit or nut baked good for am sncak > > Meat and veggies for lunch > > Fruit or nut baked good for pm snack > > Meat and veggies for dinner > > Fruit or nut baked good for dessert > > > > Would using the ketone urine strips be of value here? Any other > > possible explanations for these markedly elevated acids? > > > > Thanks, > > > > Beth For information on the Specific Carbohydrate Diet, please read the book _Breaking the Vicious Cycle_ by Elaine Gottschall and read the following websites: http://www.breakingtheviciouscycle.info and http://www.pecanbread.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 1, 2004 Report Share Posted June 1, 2004 > Mimi, > > I am a little unclear on what you are saying. My son has been SCD > legal for a year and a half. Some people are not able to digest some SCD legal foods. For example,Jen young's son could not tolerate any nut flours for a very long time. That is why we recommend doing the stages of the diet. >It is only in the last couple of weeks > that I am considering adding in some non-SCD legal probiotics to see > if we can change his clinical picture. These high fatty acid > metabolites and high arabinose levels have me wondering what else we > should be doing differently. In addition, his stool test is showing > no growth of acidophilus or bifidus despite supplementing straight > acidophilus. I think that it is a very good idea to introduce more probiotic foods. Are you feeding him goat yogurt? Increase the goat yogurt. Feed him cultured veggies as well. The SCD cultured veggies use a SCD legal starter such as the CP starter. Kefir might be a good idea. It is not for beginners but your son has been on SCD for a very long time. I drink kefir myself and gave it to my oldest son 25 years ago. Both Donna Gates and Elaine Gottschall believe that dairy is the best medium for fermented drinks so I suggest the goat kefir for your son if your son tolerates goat yogurt. Please be aware that the SCD version of kefir is different from the BED version. The SCD version uses grains from GEM or Dominick's. I have a collection of old posts from the SCD lists about kefir and fermented vegetables. Some of them are posts from the list healingcrow and were written in the year 2000. I can send them to you if you wish. We are planning to add a fermented food section to our website. It will be written by Seth Barrows who is a scientist and an expert on fermented foods and SCD. His advanced SCD list,healingcrow,has been advocating fermented foods for many years. > > The only changes to the diet I can think to make are to limit fruit > and honey, and perhaps soak the nut flour to make it more > digestable (this is a BED strategy that I recently picked up on). > What are your thoughts? Some of our mothers on our original list,SCDietkids, also used to soak the nuts to make it more digestible. They got this idea from the book " Nourishing Tradition " . Elaine does not like this idea b/c it might make the nuts more moldy. You are free to make your own decision in the privacy of your home. You can avoid the nuts or soak the nuts and then judge the results on your son. I also recommend increasing the amount of avocadoes in the diet. Mimi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 1, 2004 Report Share Posted June 1, 2004 > Mimi, > > I am a little unclear on what you are saying. My son has been SCD > legal for a year and a half. Some people are not able to digest some SCD legal foods. For example,Jen young's son could not tolerate any nut flours for a very long time. That is why we recommend doing the stages of the diet. >It is only in the last couple of weeks > that I am considering adding in some non-SCD legal probiotics to see > if we can change his clinical picture. These high fatty acid > metabolites and high arabinose levels have me wondering what else we > should be doing differently. In addition, his stool test is showing > no growth of acidophilus or bifidus despite supplementing straight > acidophilus. I think that it is a very good idea to introduce more probiotic foods. Are you feeding him goat yogurt? Increase the goat yogurt. Feed him cultured veggies as well. The SCD cultured veggies use a SCD legal starter such as the CP starter. Kefir might be a good idea. It is not for beginners but your son has been on SCD for a very long time. I drink kefir myself and gave it to my oldest son 25 years ago. Both Donna Gates and Elaine Gottschall believe that dairy is the best medium for fermented drinks so I suggest the goat kefir for your son if your son tolerates goat yogurt. Please be aware that the SCD version of kefir is different from the BED version. The SCD version uses grains from GEM or Dominick's. I have a collection of old posts from the SCD lists about kefir and fermented vegetables. Some of them are posts from the list healingcrow and were written in the year 2000. I can send them to you if you wish. We are planning to add a fermented food section to our website. It will be written by Seth Barrows who is a scientist and an expert on fermented foods and SCD. His advanced SCD list,healingcrow,has been advocating fermented foods for many years. > > The only changes to the diet I can think to make are to limit fruit > and honey, and perhaps soak the nut flour to make it more > digestable (this is a BED strategy that I recently picked up on). > What are your thoughts? Some of our mothers on our original list,SCDietkids, also used to soak the nuts to make it more digestible. They got this idea from the book " Nourishing Tradition " . Elaine does not like this idea b/c it might make the nuts more moldy. You are free to make your own decision in the privacy of your home. You can avoid the nuts or soak the nuts and then judge the results on your son. I also recommend increasing the amount of avocadoes in the diet. Mimi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 1, 2004 Report Share Posted June 1, 2004 I agree with Patti! It does seem that this might be a result of the prescription anti-fungal/anti-bacterials killing the gut pathogens. Mimi > Beth, > I also remember Elaine stating that gut pathogens can produce ketones when they are dying off, especially. Could this have been a result of the prescription anti-fungal/anti-bacterials? At any rate, even though he was SCD legal all this time, he seems to have still had some bad guys down there until recently, right? I am about to nod off for the evening..... but seems like you said earlier that he'd still had some clostridia, etc? > > > Patti > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 1, 2004 Report Share Posted June 1, 2004 " The interpretation says these are ketones and indicate increased metabolic utilization of fatty acids associated with diabetes mellitis, fasting or dieting, ESPECIALLY KETOGENIC DIETS, illness such as nausea or flu, and many other causes. " My question has to do with the FASTING part of the possible causes. Was this OAT done from first morning urine? If so, he had been fasting for probably 8 hours at least. Jody mom to -5 and -7 SCD 16 months Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 1, 2004 Report Share Posted June 1, 2004 " The interpretation says these are ketones and indicate increased metabolic utilization of fatty acids associated with diabetes mellitis, fasting or dieting, ESPECIALLY KETOGENIC DIETS, illness such as nausea or flu, and many other causes. " My question has to do with the FASTING part of the possible causes. Was this OAT done from first morning urine? If so, he had been fasting for probably 8 hours at least. Jody mom to -5 and -7 SCD 16 months Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 1, 2004 Report Share Posted June 1, 2004 Patti, He finished a long 12 week round of antifungals (Deiflucan and Sporonox) plus Flagyl on April 9. The OAT was taken May 18, so 6 weeks after finishinghte long course of therapy. Despite the SCD and the long round of antifungals, the OAT still showed markedly elevated arabinose, but the other pathogenic acids were okay. So no clostridia this time. Can the yeast that produces arabinose produce ketones as well? Beth > > > I wanted to post another finding from my son's OAT from Great > > > Plains, in addiion to the elevated arabinose level. Two markers > for > > > fatty acid metabolities are very, very high: > > > > > > 3-hydroxybutyric 100.21 (ref range 0-10) > > > acetoacetic 215.02 (ref range 0-10) > > > > > > The interpretation says these are ketones and indicate increased > > > metabolic utilization of fatty acids associated with diabetes > > > mellitis, fasting or dieting, ESPECIALLY KETOGENIC DIETS, > illness > > > such as nausea or flu, and many other causes. > > > > > > Natually, I am concerned about ketosis. His typical diet looks > like: > > > > > > SCD pancakes for breakfast > > > Fruit or nut baked good for am sncak > > > Meat and veggies for lunch > > > Fruit or nut baked good for pm snack > > > Meat and veggies for dinner > > > Fruit or nut baked good for dessert > > > > > > Would using the ketone urine strips be of value here? Any other > > > possible explanations for these markedly elevated acids? > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > Beth > > > > For information on the Specific Carbohydrate Diet, please read the book _Breaking the Vicious Cycle_ by Elaine Gottschall and read the following websites: > http://www.breakingtheviciouscycle.info > and > http://www.pecanbread.com > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 1, 2004 Report Share Posted June 1, 2004 Patti, He finished a long 12 week round of antifungals (Deiflucan and Sporonox) plus Flagyl on April 9. The OAT was taken May 18, so 6 weeks after finishinghte long course of therapy. Despite the SCD and the long round of antifungals, the OAT still showed markedly elevated arabinose, but the other pathogenic acids were okay. So no clostridia this time. Can the yeast that produces arabinose produce ketones as well? Beth > > > I wanted to post another finding from my son's OAT from Great > > > Plains, in addiion to the elevated arabinose level. Two markers > for > > > fatty acid metabolities are very, very high: > > > > > > 3-hydroxybutyric 100.21 (ref range 0-10) > > > acetoacetic 215.02 (ref range 0-10) > > > > > > The interpretation says these are ketones and indicate increased > > > metabolic utilization of fatty acids associated with diabetes > > > mellitis, fasting or dieting, ESPECIALLY KETOGENIC DIETS, > illness > > > such as nausea or flu, and many other causes. > > > > > > Natually, I am concerned about ketosis. His typical diet looks > like: > > > > > > SCD pancakes for breakfast > > > Fruit or nut baked good for am sncak > > > Meat and veggies for lunch > > > Fruit or nut baked good for pm snack > > > Meat and veggies for dinner > > > Fruit or nut baked good for dessert > > > > > > Would using the ketone urine strips be of value here? Any other > > > possible explanations for these markedly elevated acids? > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > Beth > > > > For information on the Specific Carbohydrate Diet, please read the book _Breaking the Vicious Cycle_ by Elaine Gottschall and read the following websites: > http://www.breakingtheviciouscycle.info > and > http://www.pecanbread.com > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 1, 2004 Report Share Posted June 1, 2004 Mimi, How would you know if your child is not tolerating a certain SCD food? My son's stools have been formed for a long time now - since about the 2nd month of SCD. So stool consistency is fine. I am not seeing any undigested food in this stool either. Occasionally he will have a mushy stool or withhold for 2 days, but generally his stools are normal looking. The problems we are having is continued persistant gut bugs (he has never had a clean OAT), and of course the autistic behaviors and delayed language which really have not changed as much as I'd have hoped with the SCD. His language is still around the 3 year old level and has been for a long time, and he is 6 now. That is the bottom line. I am thinking that we really need to do something drastically different. My son really hates the yogurt with a passion, so I cannot force it on him, no matter how I disguise it, and he is generaly not a picky eater. I am thinking different probiotics, and perhaps the cultured foods, especially kefir. Also a more rigorous approach to natural antifungals sch as garlic, uva uris, oregeno, etc. Will let you know how this goes. Beth > > Mimi, > > > > I am a little unclear on what you are saying. My son has been SCD > > legal for a year and a half. > > Some people are not able to digest some SCD legal foods. For > example,Jen young's son could not tolerate any nut flours for a very > long time. That is why we recommend doing the stages of the diet. > > >It is only in the last couple of weeks > > that I am considering adding in some non-SCD legal probiotics to see > > if we can change his clinical picture. These high fatty acid > > metabolites and high arabinose levels have me wondering what else we > > should be doing differently. In addition, his stool test is showing > > no growth of acidophilus or bifidus despite supplementing straight > > acidophilus. > > I think that it is a very good idea to introduce more probiotic foods. > Are you feeding him goat yogurt? Increase the goat yogurt. > Feed him cultured veggies as well. The SCD cultured veggies use a SCD > legal starter such as the CP starter. > > Kefir might be a good idea. It is not for beginners but your son has > been on SCD for a very long time. I drink kefir myself and gave it to > my oldest son 25 years ago. > Both Donna Gates and Elaine Gottschall believe that dairy is the best > medium for fermented drinks so I suggest the goat kefir for your son > if your son tolerates goat yogurt. > > Please be aware that the SCD version of kefir is different from the > BED version. The SCD version uses grains from GEM or Dominick's. > > I have a collection of old posts from the SCD lists about kefir and > fermented vegetables. Some of them are posts from the list healingcrow > and were written in the year 2000. I can send them to you if you wish. > We are planning to add a fermented food section to our website. It > will be written by Seth Barrows who is a scientist and an expert on > fermented foods and SCD. His advanced SCD list,healingcrow,has been > advocating fermented foods for many years. > > > > The only changes to the diet I can think to make are to limit fruit > > and honey, and perhaps soak the nut flour to make it more > > digestable (this is a BED strategy that I recently picked up on). > > What are your thoughts? > > Some of our mothers on our original list,SCDietkids, also used to soak > the nuts to make it more digestible. They got this idea from the book > " Nourishing Tradition " . Elaine does not like this idea b/c it might > make the nuts more moldy. You are free to make your own decision in > the privacy of your home. You can avoid the nuts or soak the nuts and > then judge the results on your son. > I also recommend increasing the amount of avocadoes in the diet. > > Mimi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 1, 2004 Report Share Posted June 1, 2004 Mimi, How would you know if your child is not tolerating a certain SCD food? My son's stools have been formed for a long time now - since about the 2nd month of SCD. So stool consistency is fine. I am not seeing any undigested food in this stool either. Occasionally he will have a mushy stool or withhold for 2 days, but generally his stools are normal looking. The problems we are having is continued persistant gut bugs (he has never had a clean OAT), and of course the autistic behaviors and delayed language which really have not changed as much as I'd have hoped with the SCD. His language is still around the 3 year old level and has been for a long time, and he is 6 now. That is the bottom line. I am thinking that we really need to do something drastically different. My son really hates the yogurt with a passion, so I cannot force it on him, no matter how I disguise it, and he is generaly not a picky eater. I am thinking different probiotics, and perhaps the cultured foods, especially kefir. Also a more rigorous approach to natural antifungals sch as garlic, uva uris, oregeno, etc. Will let you know how this goes. Beth > > Mimi, > > > > I am a little unclear on what you are saying. My son has been SCD > > legal for a year and a half. > > Some people are not able to digest some SCD legal foods. For > example,Jen young's son could not tolerate any nut flours for a very > long time. That is why we recommend doing the stages of the diet. > > >It is only in the last couple of weeks > > that I am considering adding in some non-SCD legal probiotics to see > > if we can change his clinical picture. These high fatty acid > > metabolites and high arabinose levels have me wondering what else we > > should be doing differently. In addition, his stool test is showing > > no growth of acidophilus or bifidus despite supplementing straight > > acidophilus. > > I think that it is a very good idea to introduce more probiotic foods. > Are you feeding him goat yogurt? Increase the goat yogurt. > Feed him cultured veggies as well. The SCD cultured veggies use a SCD > legal starter such as the CP starter. > > Kefir might be a good idea. It is not for beginners but your son has > been on SCD for a very long time. I drink kefir myself and gave it to > my oldest son 25 years ago. > Both Donna Gates and Elaine Gottschall believe that dairy is the best > medium for fermented drinks so I suggest the goat kefir for your son > if your son tolerates goat yogurt. > > Please be aware that the SCD version of kefir is different from the > BED version. The SCD version uses grains from GEM or Dominick's. > > I have a collection of old posts from the SCD lists about kefir and > fermented vegetables. Some of them are posts from the list healingcrow > and were written in the year 2000. I can send them to you if you wish. > We are planning to add a fermented food section to our website. It > will be written by Seth Barrows who is a scientist and an expert on > fermented foods and SCD. His advanced SCD list,healingcrow,has been > advocating fermented foods for many years. > > > > The only changes to the diet I can think to make are to limit fruit > > and honey, and perhaps soak the nut flour to make it more > > digestable (this is a BED strategy that I recently picked up on). > > What are your thoughts? > > Some of our mothers on our original list,SCDietkids, also used to soak > the nuts to make it more digestible. They got this idea from the book > " Nourishing Tradition " . Elaine does not like this idea b/c it might > make the nuts more moldy. You are free to make your own decision in > the privacy of your home. You can avoid the nuts or soak the nuts and > then judge the results on your son. > I also recommend increasing the amount of avocadoes in the diet. > > Mimi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 1, 2004 Report Share Posted June 1, 2004 Mimi, How would you know if your child is not tolerating a certain SCD food? My son's stools have been formed for a long time now - since about the 2nd month of SCD. So stool consistency is fine. I am not seeing any undigested food in this stool either. Occasionally he will have a mushy stool or withhold for 2 days, but generally his stools are normal looking. The problems we are having is continued persistant gut bugs (he has never had a clean OAT), and of course the autistic behaviors and delayed language which really have not changed as much as I'd have hoped with the SCD. His language is still around the 3 year old level and has been for a long time, and he is 6 now. That is the bottom line. I am thinking that we really need to do something drastically different. My son really hates the yogurt with a passion, so I cannot force it on him, no matter how I disguise it, and he is generaly not a picky eater. I am thinking different probiotics, and perhaps the cultured foods, especially kefir. Also a more rigorous approach to natural antifungals sch as garlic, uva uris, oregeno, etc. Will let you know how this goes. Beth > > Mimi, > > > > I am a little unclear on what you are saying. My son has been SCD > > legal for a year and a half. > > Some people are not able to digest some SCD legal foods. For > example,Jen young's son could not tolerate any nut flours for a very > long time. That is why we recommend doing the stages of the diet. > > >It is only in the last couple of weeks > > that I am considering adding in some non-SCD legal probiotics to see > > if we can change his clinical picture. These high fatty acid > > metabolites and high arabinose levels have me wondering what else we > > should be doing differently. In addition, his stool test is showing > > no growth of acidophilus or bifidus despite supplementing straight > > acidophilus. > > I think that it is a very good idea to introduce more probiotic foods. > Are you feeding him goat yogurt? Increase the goat yogurt. > Feed him cultured veggies as well. The SCD cultured veggies use a SCD > legal starter such as the CP starter. > > Kefir might be a good idea. It is not for beginners but your son has > been on SCD for a very long time. I drink kefir myself and gave it to > my oldest son 25 years ago. > Both Donna Gates and Elaine Gottschall believe that dairy is the best > medium for fermented drinks so I suggest the goat kefir for your son > if your son tolerates goat yogurt. > > Please be aware that the SCD version of kefir is different from the > BED version. The SCD version uses grains from GEM or Dominick's. > > I have a collection of old posts from the SCD lists about kefir and > fermented vegetables. Some of them are posts from the list healingcrow > and were written in the year 2000. I can send them to you if you wish. > We are planning to add a fermented food section to our website. It > will be written by Seth Barrows who is a scientist and an expert on > fermented foods and SCD. His advanced SCD list,healingcrow,has been > advocating fermented foods for many years. > > > > The only changes to the diet I can think to make are to limit fruit > > and honey, and perhaps soak the nut flour to make it more > > digestable (this is a BED strategy that I recently picked up on). > > What are your thoughts? > > Some of our mothers on our original list,SCDietkids, also used to soak > the nuts to make it more digestible. They got this idea from the book > " Nourishing Tradition " . Elaine does not like this idea b/c it might > make the nuts more moldy. You are free to make your own decision in > the privacy of your home. You can avoid the nuts or soak the nuts and > then judge the results on your son. > I also recommend increasing the amount of avocadoes in the diet. > > Mimi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 1, 2004 Report Share Posted June 1, 2004 Yes, he was technically fasting (8 hours anyway), but can such a short fast make such an impact in his ketone level? They were 20 times the normal limit! Beth > " The interpretation says these are ketones and indicate > increased metabolic utilization of fatty acids associated with > diabetes mellitis, fasting or dieting, ESPECIALLY KETOGENIC > DIETS, illness such as nausea or flu, and many other causes. " > > My question has to do with the FASTING part of the possible > causes. > > Was this OAT done from first morning urine? If so, he had been > fasting for probably 8 hours at least. > > > Jody > mom to -5 and -7 > SCD 16 months Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 1, 2004 Report Share Posted June 1, 2004 Yes, he was technically fasting (8 hours anyway), but can such a short fast make such an impact in his ketone level? They were 20 times the normal limit! Beth > " The interpretation says these are ketones and indicate > increased metabolic utilization of fatty acids associated with > diabetes mellitis, fasting or dieting, ESPECIALLY KETOGENIC > DIETS, illness such as nausea or flu, and many other causes. " > > My question has to do with the FASTING part of the possible > causes. > > Was this OAT done from first morning urine? If so, he had been > fasting for probably 8 hours at least. > > > Jody > mom to -5 and -7 > SCD 16 months Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 1, 2004 Report Share Posted June 1, 2004 I am thinking > different probiotics, and perhaps the cultured foods, especially > kefir. Also a more rigorous approach to natural antifungals sch as > garlic, uva uris, oregeno, etc. > > > Beth > > Elaine's site mentions kefir as follows : ....Kefir: Tamaro writes: " What makes kefir different from yogurt is that kefir is fermented with bacteria and yeast . The position on kefir is more reflective of the intestinal diseases than autism: she (Elaine) feels that there is the chance of cross-reactivity between an......immune system and yeast from kefir. (Saccharomyces boulardii is illegal for the same reason.) She has said that kefir is OK for someone whose gut is healed. " Carol F. SCD 3yrs. Celiac Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 1, 2004 Report Share Posted June 1, 2004 <<Yes, he was technically fasting (8 hours anyway), but can such a short fast make such an impact in his ketone level? They were 20 times the normal limit! Beth>> Beth, Katera was on the Ketogenic Diet (for seizure control) under medical supervision for over two years. Kids who start the diet are hospitalized.... and then fasted to get them into ketosis quickly....so, I would think yes, this is possible. Every kid is different but some of the Keto kids go into ketosis very easily. Maybe you could repeat the test when he's not fasting? And before the test, possibly remove apples from his diet temporarily.... as someone else suggested? Patti Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 1, 2004 Report Share Posted June 1, 2004 <<Yes, he was technically fasting (8 hours anyway), but can such a short fast make such an impact in his ketone level? They were 20 times the normal limit! Beth>> Beth, Katera was on the Ketogenic Diet (for seizure control) under medical supervision for over two years. Kids who start the diet are hospitalized.... and then fasted to get them into ketosis quickly....so, I would think yes, this is possible. Every kid is different but some of the Keto kids go into ketosis very easily. Maybe you could repeat the test when he's not fasting? And before the test, possibly remove apples from his diet temporarily.... as someone else suggested? Patti Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 1, 2004 Report Share Posted June 1, 2004 <<Can the yeast that produces arabinose produce ketones as well? Beth>> Beth..... I honestly don't know the answer to that question. I just had a vague memory of Elaine discussing this on the list when she was with us.... and her saying that gut pathogens can produce ketones. Since it wasn't an issue for us, I didn't pay attention to whether or not she specified which ones. Maybe you could search back through the Lyris archives? Patti Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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