Guest guest Posted January 27, 2003 Report Share Posted January 27, 2003 > After the second round of DMSA, my 5.5 y.o. son developed what I > would call a verbal tic. He makes a sound like " sshht, sshht " . He > says it a lot, but always quietly to himself. Any ideas what could > be causing this? One of my kids has verbal/throat tics when he has yeast http://www.danasview.net/yeast.htm Dana Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 20, 2005 Report Share Posted July 20, 2005 It depends on what the clients assessment shows. On Jul 20, 2005, at 7:24 AM, Jan Osgood wrote: > Hi Guys, > > Would someone refresh my memory please. > > What to we do with verbal tics? > > Thanks, > Jan Osgood > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 20, 2005 Report Share Posted July 20, 2005 Thanks for replying. I have been training to his assessment, which I'll look up in just a moment. The idea occurred to me that the training has been helpful, and now he is over-medicated by th dex he's on. I understand that dex can be associated with inducing tics and tourette's. Jan Re: verbal tic > It depends on what the clients assessment shows. > > > On Jul 20, 2005, at 7:24 AM, Jan Osgood wrote: > >> Hi Guys, >> >> Would someone refresh my memory please. >> >> What to we do with verbal tics? >> >> Thanks, >> Jan Osgood >> >> >> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 20, 2005 Report Share Posted July 20, 2005 Tourette's syndrome is a tough one as there are so many different behavioral presentations that go with it. As one difficulty subsides another many times becomes more prominent. Tic disorders especially Tourette's Syndrome often co-occur with ADHD, The percentage of folks with ADD and tourette's is 4-5 times greater than in the 'normal' population. What I have seen is the stimulant meds often exacerbate tics. I have several clients who were not diagnosed with TS until after being on a stimulant med, but thorough careful interview showed that there were many small less noticeable tics present before the meds were used. I do not believe that the meds induce or cause the TS but the can certainly increase the symptoms. Most of the local Drs here are not too supportive of NFB and I have had several clients report bad reactions from Drs. when asking for meds to be tapered as a result of successful NFB. I now coach my clients in how to identify the signs of overmedication and how to discuss that with the Dr asking for a period of tapering of meds to see what happens. Kids' neurology changes so fast that they are often times experiencing changes in medication effectiveness. Drs. have responded to the 'overmedication' information much more productively. I often have parents fill the subjective assessment forms out before the tapering begins and again when the new level of med has been in use for a while. It is not uncommon to see very different reports (sometimes positive sometimes new problems or old ones that were in the background) after meds have been changed. I have found more changes on these than on repeats of the eeg assessment after meds have been changed. On Jul 20, 2005, at 2:49 PM, Jan Osgood wrote: > Thanks for replying. > > I have been training to his assessment, which I'll look up in just a > moment. > > The idea occurred to me that the training has been helpful, and now he > is > over-medicated by th dex he's on. > > I understand that dex can be associated with inducing tics and > tourette's. > Jan > > > Re: verbal tic > > >> It depends on what the clients assessment shows. >> >> >> On Jul 20, 2005, at 7:24 AM, Jan Osgood wrote: >> >>> Hi Guys, >>> >>> Would someone refresh my memory please. >>> >>> What to we do with verbal tics? >>> >>> Thanks, >>> Jan Osgood >>> >>> >>> >>> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 20, 2005 Report Share Posted July 20, 2005 Hi again, , This is what his assessment shows: 1. Hot temporals, for which I've done the classic 2C squish. This has been a little helpful, but more recently he has become 'hyped' when the dex wears off..as usual. We've just had school hols, and this is a boy who is alway running around and playing sport BUT he has been laid up with a broken ankle, and playing playstation for long periods of time. (He's the one I wrote in about), 2. C4 SMR% 7.8% Training that, and C4/A2 apparently (according to the mum) made him more 'hyped'. 3. So, last session I tried to get at this by doing C4/T4 2C 13-38 Hz squish. Also C4Pz and C4Oz squish. (This is me getting desperate!) That's when the email came back-no change except ticcing worse. 4 Elevated T/B ratios 5. Low alpha coherence parietally 6. He's pretty much a scoop, except for elevated 8-10 Hz. Some mitigating factors here may be: -school hols, so no way of knowing if he's concentrating better -the mum and grandmother both said he's communicating better, but that got lost in all the reports of 'no change'. -having primed the mum to look for change, she may be looking too hard. -they are a lovely family, and his diet is excellent, although the mum is planning to get a hair analysis done. -the mum is in her 40's, slim, fit and vivaceous, but has had breast cancer and is somewhat obsessed with health and diet. She concedes he could have a milk allergy, and maybe other allergies. I see him again at 5pm, ie about 10 hours from now. Any and all comments appreciated. I'm finding him especially tricky. Jan Re: verbal tic > It depends on what the clients assessment shows. > > > On Jul 20, 2005, at 7:24 AM, Jan Osgood wrote: > >> Hi Guys, >> >> Would someone refresh my memory please. >> >> What to we do with verbal tics? >> >> Thanks, >> Jan Osgood >> >> >> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 20, 2005 Report Share Posted July 20, 2005 Thanks , Our emails crossed somewhere in the cyber. Jan Re: verbal tic >> >> >>> It depends on what the clients assessment shows. >>> >>> >>> On Jul 20, 2005, at 7:24 AM, Jan Osgood wrote: >>> >>>> Hi Guys, >>>> >>>> Would someone refresh my memory please. >>>> >>>> What to we do with verbal tics? >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> Jan Osgood >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 20, 2005 Report Share Posted July 20, 2005 Jan, I almost always do two channel training, contralteral sites. I have said before that the only time I have ever had any negative effects with NFB is when I have trained just one site. The exception to the two channel mantra of course is bipolar training at the same pairs of sites. I will usually do c3 beta with a mild enhance if I am doing c4 smr. Same holds at other sites. Not quite sure what a 'squish' is but I refuse to let my imagination get too carried away 8-). I have used a two channel widowed squash in similar situations. I usually leave 6.5 to 7.5 open (I do a lot of frontal work and want to leave the area of frontal midline theta untouched) and 12-21 open as well. I sum the activity from 2-6.5 and 22-38 into a single threshold set to decrease. In review of sessions I have seen that when the extremes of the spectrum reduce the activity in the middle (scooped out) often comes up of its own accord. It seems to me that the brain is very good at finding it's own balance point it we just help it get the garbage out of the way, It might be good to know what 'hyped' means. Is this over active, reactive, obsessing over something, oppositional and combative. I have heard all of the above called 'hyped' or 'hyper' but they are really different things and may have really different roots. All, however, could be tourette's related. Because these kids present with so many varied problems it is easy to become overwhelmed. It is important to avoid getting caught up in the parent's sense of crisis. Sounds like you have had a good plan and he has responded to that. On Jul 20, 2005, at 4:04 PM, Jan Osgood wrote: > Hi again, , > > This is what his assessment shows: > > 1. Hot temporals, for which I've done the classic 2C squish. > > This has been a little helpful, but more recently he has become > 'hyped' when the dex wears off..as usual. > We've just had school hols, and this is a boy who is alway running > around and playing sport BUT he has been laid up with a broken ankle, > and playing playstation for long periods of time. > (He's the one I wrote in about), > > 2. C4 SMR% 7.8% > Training that, and C4/A2 apparently (according to the mum) made him > more 'hyped'. > > 3. So, last session I tried to get at this by doing C4/T4 2C 13-38 Hz > squish. > Also C4Pz and C4Oz squish. (This is me getting desperate!) > > That's when the email came back-no change except ticcing worse. > > 4 Elevated T/B ratios > > 5. Low alpha coherence parietally > > 6. He's pretty much a scoop, except for elevated 8-10 Hz. > > > Some mitigating factors here may be: > > -school hols, so no way of knowing if he's concentrating better > -the mum and grandmother both said he's communicating better, but that > got lost in all the reports of 'no change'. > > -having primed the mum to look for change, she may be looking too hard. > > -they are a lovely family, and his diet is excellent, although the mum > is > planning > to get a hair analysis done. > > -the mum is in her 40's, slim, fit and vivaceous, but has had breast > cancer > and is somewhat obsessed with health and diet. She concedes he could > have > a milk allergy, and maybe other allergies. > > I see him again at 5pm, ie about 10 hours from now. Any and all > comments > appreciated. I'm finding him especially tricky. > > Jan > > > Re: verbal tic > > >> It depends on what the clients assessment shows. >> >> >> On Jul 20, 2005, at 7:24 AM, Jan Osgood wrote: >> >>> Hi Guys, >>> >>> Would someone refresh my memory please. >>> >>> What to we do with verbal tics? >>> >>> Thanks, >>> Jan Osgood >>> >>> >>> >>> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 21, 2005 Report Share Posted July 21, 2005 Jan, 3. So, last session I tried to get at this by doing C4/T4 2C 13-38 Hz squish.Also C4Pz and C4Oz squish. (This is me getting desperate!)That's when the email came back-no change except ticcing worse. You're training on the right side, whereas verbal areas are left side. Also, by setting your inhibit band so low as 13, you may be asking him to inhibit some helpful electricity. Two possible protocols to test... amplitude 1- chanA: PT5 - ears; chanB PT6 - ears, increase SMR% amplitude and/or Alpha frequency up to around 10Hz- eyes closed at first, but after 10 to 15 minutes invite him to open eyes some. Noticing difference in feeling coherence 2- chanA: PT5- ears; chanB: F7- ears, short conditions (3 to 5 min- noticing behaviour/sensation between conditions) increasing 10-15Hz coherence between sites. 3) notice relationship with mom- and rest of peers. in what ways does he receive negative reinforcement from environment. how does he respond to such moments? how does he take to the idea of Loss of his mom? address this issue and note his verbal response- help him notice if there is alteration. all the best today- hope the email wasn't too late. -----Original Message-----From: [mailto: ] On Behalf Of Jan OsgoodSent: Wednesday, July 20, 2005 6:05 PM Subject: Re: verbal ticHi again, ,This is what his assessment shows:1. Hot temporals, for which I've done the classic 2C squish.This has been a little helpful, but more recently he has become'hyped' when the dex wears off..as usual.We've just had school hols, and this is a boy who is alway runningaround and playing sport BUT he has been laid up with a broken ankle,and playing playstation for long periods of time.(He's the one I wrote in about),2. C4 SMR% 7.8%Training that, and C4/A2 apparently (according to the mum) made himmore 'hyped'.3. So, last session I tried to get at this by doing C4/T4 2C 13-38 Hz squish.Also C4Pz and C4Oz squish. (This is me getting desperate!)That's when the email came back-no change except ticcing worse.4 Elevated T/B ratios5. Low alpha coherence parietally6. He's pretty much a scoop, except for elevated 8-10 Hz.Some mitigating factors here may be:-school hols, so no way of knowing if he's concentrating better-the mum and grandmother both said he's communicating better, but thatgot lost in all the reports of 'no change'.-having primed the mum to look for change, she may be looking too hard.-they are a lovely family, and his diet is excellent, although the mum is planningto get a hair analysis done.-the mum is in her 40's, slim, fit and vivaceous, but has had breast cancerand is somewhat obsessed with health and diet. She concedes he could havea milk allergy, and maybe other allergies.I see him again at 5pm, ie about 10 hours from now. Any and all commentsappreciated. I'm finding him especially tricky.Jan Re: verbal tic> It depends on what the clients assessment shows.>> > On Jul 20, 2005, at 7:24 AM, Jan Osgood wrote:>>> Hi Guys,>>>> Would someone refresh my memory please.>>>> What to we do with verbal tics?>>>> Thanks,>> Jan Osgood>>>>>>>> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 22, 2005 Report Share Posted July 22, 2005 Daphne How do you adjust and know what direction to adjust in and what kind of reaction guides you. Mark Original Message ----- From: Daphne Ketelaar Sent: Friday, July 22, 2005 9:34 PM Subject: Re: Re: verbal tic Hi Jan, in my experience tics (vocal as well as motor) are well treated with frontal training. Depending on the client I train Fp1-Fp2 (one channel; bipolar) at 11-14hz. Maybe even lower, I adjust according to reaction. Sometimes a client reacts better with Fz 12-15hz. Daphne Free antispam, antivirus and 1GB to save all your messagesOnly in : http://in.mail. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 22, 2005 Report Share Posted July 22, 2005 Mark, I usually ask the client how he/she feels in reaction to the training. If they feel calmer, I won't adjust the frequenty. If they feel more tense (usually tension of body) I go lower and ask if it's better. If they feel nervous after 11-14hz, I go up towards 12-15. But I find that Fz feels better for most at 12-15 than Fp1Fp2. Some people don't feel any effect during training. So then I wait till the next session and wait for the effect on the tics, and the reactions like described above. DaphneMark Baddeley <baddeley@...> wrote: Daphne How do you adjust and know what direction to adjust in and what kind of reaction guides you. Mark Original Message ----- From: Daphne Ketelaar Sent: Friday, July 22, 2005 9:34 PM Subject: Re: Re: verbal tic Hi Jan, in my experience tics (vocal as well as motor) are well treated with frontal training. Depending on the client I train Fp1-Fp2 (one channel; bipolar) at 11-14hz. Maybe even lower, I adjust according to reaction. Sometimes a client reacts better with Fz 12-15hz. Daphne Free antispam, antivirus and 1GB to save all your messagesOnly in : http://in.mail. Free antispam, antivirus and 1GB to save all your messages Only in : http://in.mail. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 22, 2005 Report Share Posted July 22, 2005 Thank you. Mark Re: Re: verbal tic Hi Jan, in my experience tics (vocal as well as motor) are well treated with frontal training. Depending on the client I train Fp1-Fp2 (one channel; bipolar) at 11-14hz. Maybe even lower, I adjust according to reaction. Sometimes a client reacts better with Fz 12-15hz. Daphne Free antispam, antivirus and 1GB to save all your messagesOnly in : http://in.mail. Free antispam, antivirus and 1GB to save all your messagesOnly in : http://in.mail. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 22, 2005 Report Share Posted July 22, 2005 Jan, you said... Unless there is some validity in the theory that he is now over-medicated. The mum said she would reduce his meds on theweekend and see what happened. 1st- there is validity to this replicable phenomenon. You hadn't mentioned meds earlier. It is a good idea to know: a) what the signs of overmedication are. the telephone number of the client's prescribing physician c) how do address medical issues from the point of view of an educator- because it is the doctor who is responsible for medications. (I'm sorry if I talked down to you. don't know your academic level) If these came on AFTER you began doing SMR training in the temporal... worth -very much- looking further into this. -----Original Message-----From: [mailto: ] On Behalf Of Daphne KetelaarSent: Friday, July 22, 2005 8:35 AM Subject: Re: Re: verbal tic Hi Jan, in my experience tics (vocal as well as motor) are well treated with frontal training. Depending on the client I train Fp1-Fp2 (one channel; bipolar) at 11-14hz. Maybe even lower, I adjust according to reaction. Sometimes a client reacts better with Fz 12-15hz. DaphneJan Osgood <josgood@...> wrote: Thanks very much, , , Rosemary and Deborah,(sorry if I left anyone out..)This really is a challenge. Now the parents did not mention tics on intake,I thought I was dealing with ADHD. The first mention of tics was the emaila few days ago, although I had noticed very soft little clearing throatsnuffling type noises that day during the NF session. We've now had8 sessions.I noticed but didn't say anything....I didn't feel to say in front of the child'Hey is that a tic I'm hearing?' Fortunately the mum is very good atcommunicating by email.The mum said yesterday that the tics come and go, but they had been'gone' for several months, until this week. As it stands, the mum hasbeen paying me to bring back the tics! Does not make me feel good!Unless there is some validity in the theory that he is now over-medicated. The mum said she would reduce his meds on theweekend and see what happened.Maybe that's too short a time-span for anything, but it shows themum is actively looking for explanations.I'll see him twice next week -those sessions are paid for, so I haveto pull something out of the hat by then or I may not see him after that.I'm going to be busy for the next hour or so....what I will do then isre-process his TLC, then write out what I see in it, then write outwhat I've done, and what I know of the boy, and really attack thisproblem.This is all the more difficult for me because I've been getting suchgood results. I can't let this one get away! BTW, I was talkingcryptically to the mum (in front of the child) but it seems he does notofficially have the diagnosis of TS.If I may, I'll post a potted version of what I come up with, and youwonderful people might offer some more comments....I haven't ever had success with tics or TS before....it's a worthychallenge, because it does negatively affect people's lives, especiallyfull-blown TS!Jan Re: Re: verbal tic> Deborah,>> The left hemisphere is where language is based. Verbal/vocal tics are> not really a language issue. They are a motor control issue.> Sometimes the tics are words but many times a vocal tic can be a cough,> clearing of the throat, barking etc.>>>> > On Jul 21, 2005, at 10:30 AM, wheelihan82 wrote:>>> Just thinking....Do we know that verbal tics arise from the same area>> as intentional speech?>>>> Deborah>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 22, 2005 Report Share Posted July 22, 2005 Thanks very much, , and everyone who has written. It's 5.20 am here (sydney), and my dog has been moaning piteously(....if there's anyone who doesn't know, that's how he manipulates me into taking him for a walk!) I'll answer soon as a I get back. Jan I'm a registered psychologist but have more than passing medical knowledge, whatever that means. I've known about over-medication for the 10 years I've been practising. I've had parents take matters into their own hands and taper off the meds, such as dex. But this is quite dramatic-the tics exacerbated, and it's not a good feeling for me! Re: Re: verbal tic> Deborah,>> The left hemisphere is where language is based. Verbal/vocal tics are> not really a language issue. They are a motor control issue.> Sometimes the tics are words but many times a vocal tic can be a cough,> clearing of the throat, barking etc.>>>> > On Jul 21, 2005, at 10:30 AM, wheelihan82 wrote:>>> Just thinking....Do we know that verbal tics arise from the same area>> as intentional speech?>>>> Deborah>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 24, 2005 Report Share Posted July 24, 2005  Thanks, . I don't want them to give up on me. Not when there is so much potential to do good! Jan Re: Re: verbal tic> Deborah,>> The left hemisphere is where language is based. Verbal/vocal tics are> not really a language issue. They are a motor control issue.> Sometimes the tics are words but many times a vocal tic can be a cough,> clearing of the throat, barking etc.>>>> > On Jul 21, 2005, at 10:30 AM, wheelihan82 wrote:>>> Just thinking....Do we know that verbal tics arise from the same area>> as intentional speech?>>>> Deborah>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 25, 2005 Report Share Posted July 25, 2005  HI , , and others, I saw my 'tic boy' this afternoon. The mum must have taken some notice of what I'd been saying....she had him off medication for the weekend....and he was perfectly fine, not 'hyper' (hyperactive, acting silly), and no tics! (Please note, I did not say to take him off meds. I said to consider the possibility of reducing the meds.) I ask you! I think I just looked at the mum blankly at that point...I may have mumbled something like, 'that's great'...but I have no idea. I wanted to say, 'do you know how I've been agonising over this?' I did say after a couple of moments 'do you think that this is an indication that he is over-medicated, or he now needs less medication?' But she wouldn't have that. She says that because it's slow-release dex he can't possibly be over-medicated. Does this sound confusing? I'm totally confused by the mum's switches in reasoning. The dad is also coming to the appointment on friday. I'll discuss home training, as they do live some distance away.... Oh, today I did fp1-fp2, mostly because I wanted a report of what it did for him. Big thanks to everyone who wrote in on this. Jan Re: Re: verbal tic> Deborah,>> The left hemisphere is where language is based. Verbal/vocal tics are> not really a language issue. They are a motor control issue.> Sometimes the tics are words but many times a vocal tic can be a cough,> clearing of the throat, barking etc.>>>> > On Jul 21, 2005, at 10:30 AM, wheelihan82 wrote:>>> Just thinking....Do we know that verbal tics arise from the same area>> as intentional speech?>>>> Deborah>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 25, 2005 Report Share Posted July 25, 2005 Jan, I am a big believer in working with the prescribing MD when kids are on meds. I am always very careful to insist that parents speak with their MD if they are considering any change in medication. Likewise, Mom should speak with the MD about the Tics -- Mom should be making decisions about medication -- reduction or whether or not her child is over-medicated. If she won't, then obtain a written permission to speak with the child's MD and call him or her to dicuss what you are seeing in the child. Good luck. --Warmly, T. Lindsey, M.S.,L.M.F.T. Claremont, CA Tustin, CA 909-626-5313 This email and any attachments may contain confidential information and it is intended for the addressee only. If you are not the intended recipient, you should destroy this message and notify the sender by reply email. If you are not the addressee, any disclosure, reproduction or transmission of this email is strictly prohibited. --------- Re: Re: verbal tic> Deborah,>> The left hemisphere is where language is based. Verbal/vocal tics are> not really a language issue. They are a motor control issue.> Sometimes the tics are words but many times a vocal tic can be a cough,> clearing of the throat, barking etc.>>>> > On Jul 21, 2005, at 10:30 AM, wheelihan82 wrote:>>> Just thinking....Do we know that verbal tics arise from the same area>> as intentional speech?>>>> Deborah>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 25, 2005 Report Share Posted July 25, 2005 Jan asked... What are the signs of over-medication, please? I'm not sure- what is the medication? what is the diagnosis? but I believe that the notes on the medication should declare what signs an overdose will bring. PS- Glad you noted this difference from the mom's weekend OFF meds. Sounds a bit like the mom is "running the show" based upon what you say. You being the professional is a position of decision. Guard that position so that you can HEAR her input and add that to the other information you have gathered in your studies and clinical experience to make the final decision. She will respect you much more for it. Of course, you have the responsibility along with this position to communicate any changes or new decisions with the mom. More power to you! -----Original Message-----From: [mailto: ] On Behalf Of Jan OsgoodSent: Sunday, July 24, 2005 1:06 PM Subject: Re: Re: verbal tic HI , What are the signs of over-medication, please? Jan Re: Re: verbal tic> Deborah,>> The left hemisphere is where language is based. Verbal/vocal tics are> not really a language issue. They are a motor control issue.> Sometimes the tics are words but many times a vocal tic can be a cough,> clearing of the throat, barking etc.>>>> > On Jul 21, 2005, at 10:30 AM, wheelihan82 wrote:>>> Just thinking....Do we know that verbal tics arise from the same area>> as intentional speech?>>>> Deborah>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 25, 2005 Report Share Posted July 25, 2005 , The diagnosis is ADHD, thr medication is dex, 10mg/day, slow release. The tics are a 'known side effect' of the meds which 'we were warned about.' The boy, now 12, has been on dex since he was 5 yo.I have suggested talking to the prescribing MD. THe mum seems to have such blind faith in the doc and the meds that when it comes right down to it, she can't really get her mind about another way forward. The mum has talked to the pharmacist and he said bascially that over-medication is impossibe because of slow-release. There will be a case-conference with the dad on friday. What I need is some separate objective marker of where he's at....questionnaires, TOVA? It been difficult-school hols and he's in plaster with a broken ankle...what does a boy do? Since I've been doing Pete's stuff (March) I've had almost across the board dramatic improvements, except for this boy, and my depressed top-gun salesman. I've had almost miraculous success with a severely depressed lady. I want to win!! Thanks so much for your contributions, , , and others. I'l do some research between now and friday. BTW , I don't really understand your notation... Two possible protocols to test... amplitude 1- chanA: PT5 - ears; chanB PT6 - ears, increase SMR% amplitude and/or Alpha frequency up to around 10Hz- eyes closed at first, but after 10 to 15 minutes invite him to open eyes some. Noticing difference in feeling coherence 2- chanA: PT5- ears; chanB: F7- ears, short conditions (3 to 5 min- noticing behaviour/sensation between conditions) increasing 10-15Hz coherence between sites. T5, T6, F7 I know....PT5, PT6....should I look up the expanded 10-20 map? Thanks, Jan Re: Re: verbal tic> Deborah,>> The left hemisphere is where language is based. Verbal/vocal tics are> not really a language issue. They are a motor control issue.> Sometimes the tics are words but many times a vocal tic can be a cough,> clearing of the throat, barking etc.>>>> > On Jul 21, 2005, at 10:30 AM, wheelihan82 wrote:>>> Just thinking....Do we know that verbal tics arise from the same area>> as intentional speech?>>>> Deborah>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 25, 2005 Report Share Posted July 25, 2005 Hi Jan, I've been working with filtering/processing brain activation patterns (knows as ADHD in the MED field)kids for the last three years, and based in that short experience I can summarize: 1.- The physician (MDs) in charge of the meds is your allied, you need and have to work side by side. Make him/her believe in the NFB potential and allow you to work with him/her. 2.- You and the physician in charge needs to understand that the medication effect will change with the inclusion of NFB in the client's treatment. It will power up (increase) the effect. 3.- NFB is more accurate and less prone to make things go worse than drugs. 4.- Remember that including the most skilled and wise physicians doesn't know the exactly med dosage for their clients (patients). They follow the Drug Laboratory recommendations based on age, weight and others things. But in several cases the drug will affect negatively the patient and then the MD will need to adjust the med to the proper dosage (try and error). So, why if the MDs do that with the meds why can we be able to do the same with NFB?? In our practice we don't going to talk about dosage, mgs, times, etc, instead we're going to talk about rewards, inhibits, frecuencies and sites. The client will understand this very well and will prefer the NFB side effects (if there is any) over the med side effects. You can ask them. Well Jan, hope this bullets can help on your case, and good luck!!! Regards, , C.H. BrainTrainer @ Training For Life Miami, FL --- Jan Osgood <josgood@...> wrote: > Message, > > The diagnosis is ADHD, thr medication is dex, > 10mg/day, slow release. > The tics are a 'known side effect' of the meds > which 'we were warned about.' > > The boy, now 12, has been on dex since he was 5 yo.I > have suggested talking to the prescribing MD. THe > mum seems to have such blind faith in the doc and > the meds > that when it comes right down to it, she can't > really get her mind about another way forward. > > The mum has talked to the pharmacist and he said > bascially that over-medication is impossibe because > of slow-release. > > There will be a case-conference with the dad on > friday. What I need is some separate objective > marker of where he's at....questionnaires, > TOVA? > > It been difficult-school hols and he's in plaster > with a broken ankle...what does a boy do? > > Since I've been doing Pete's stuff (March) I've had > almost across the board dramatic improvements, > except for this boy, and my depressed top-gun > salesman. I've > had almost miraculous success with a severely > depressed lady. > > I want to win!! > > Thanks so much for your contributions, , > , and others. I'l do some research between now > and friday. > > BTW , I don't really understand your > notation... > > Two possible protocols to test... > amplitude > 1- chanA: PT5 - ears; chanB PT6 - ears, increase > SMR% amplitude and/or Alpha frequency up to around > 10Hz- eyes closed at first, but after 10 to 15 > minutes invite him to open eyes some. Noticing > difference in feeling > > coherence > 2- chanA: PT5- ears; chanB: F7- ears, short > conditions (3 to 5 min- noticing behaviour/sensation > between conditions) increasing 10-15Hz coherence > between sites. > > > T5, T6, F7 I know....PT5, PT6....should I look up > the expanded 10-20 map? > > Thanks, > Jan > > > Re: Re: verbal tic > > > Hi Jan, > > in my experience tics (vocal as well as > motor) are well treated with frontal training. > Depending on the client I train Fp1-Fp2 (one > channel; bipolar) at 11-14hz. Maybe even lower, I > adjust according to reaction. Sometimes a client > reacts better with Fz 12-15hz. > Daphne > > Jan Osgood > <josgood@...> wrote: > Thanks very much, , , Rosemary > and Deborah, > (sorry if I left anyone out..) > > This really is a challenge. Now the > parents did not mention tics on intake, > I thought I was dealing with ADHD. The > first mention of tics was the email > a few days ago, although I had noticed > very soft little clearing throat > snuffling type noises that day during the > NF session. We've now had > 8 sessions. > > I noticed but didn't say anything....I > didn't feel to say in front of the > child > 'Hey is that a tic I'm hearing?' > Fortunately the mum is very good at > communicating by email. > > The mum said yesterday that the tics come > and go, but they had been > 'gone' for several months, until this > week. As it stands, the mum has > been paying me to bring back the tics! > Does not make me feel good! > > Unless there is some validity in the > theory that he is now over- > medicated. The mum said she would reduce > his meds on the > weekend and see what happened. > === message truncated === __________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 26, 2005 Report Share Posted July 26, 2005 Hi , Thanks so much for adding to what others have offered. Your comments are very pertinent because the mum made it clear last time that 1) the tics really aren't a problem, and 2) they do not want to vary the meds regime during term-time at school....this after taking him off meds during the weekend. Part of my problem is that the mum keeps shifting, and more recently the tics have? stopped...no more funny snuffling sounds, but more eyeblinks. It's all the more surprising because the mum is otherwise quite obsessed with healthy living. Your comments re physicians are particularly helpful. When we have the conference on friday, I will point these things out to the parents, and, in the nicest possible way, take the fight to the medical profession, and maybe have another look at 'Talking Back to Ritalin.' The mum also said that when his broken ankle heals he'll be playing sport 3 afternoons after school, and all weekend, so there won't be much time for coming to see me. And the boy is about to start high school! So I will present the info on home training! BTW , what do you especially look for in processing patterns in ADHD? Best regards, Jan Re: Re: verbal tic >> >> >> Hi Jan, >> >> in my experience tics (vocal as well as >> motor) are well treated with frontal training. >> Depending on the client I train Fp1-Fp2 (one >> channel; bipolar) at 11-14hz. Maybe even lower, I >> adjust according to reaction. Sometimes a client >> reacts better with Fz 12-15hz. >> Daphne >> >> Jan Osgood >> <josgood@...> wrote: >> Thanks very much, , , Rosemary >> and Deborah, >> (sorry if I left anyone out..) >> >> This really is a challenge. Now the >> parents did not mention tics on intake, >> I thought I was dealing with ADHD. The >> first mention of tics was the email >> a few days ago, although I had noticed >> very soft little clearing throat >> snuffling type noises that day during the >> NF session. We've now had >> 8 sessions. >> >> I noticed but didn't say anything....I >> didn't feel to say in front of the >> child >> 'Hey is that a tic I'm hearing?' >> Fortunately the mum is very good at >> communicating by email. >> >> The mum said yesterday that the tics come >> and go, but they had been >> 'gone' for several months, until this >> week. As it stands, the mum has >> been paying me to bring back the tics! >> Does not make me feel good! >> >> Unless there is some validity in the >> theory that he is now over- >> medicated. The mum said she would reduce >> his meds on the >> weekend and see what happened. >> > === message truncated === > > > __________________________________________________ > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 26, 2005 Report Share Posted July 26, 2005 Hi Jan, seems to me that mom is making you work hard and is handing over responsibility. She is giving mixed messages and is giving priority to other things (like sports), while you make the effort. Perhaps if you lean back, confirm her hesitations (maybe overstate it a little bit), she will have a more disicive and resolute attitude. On top of that I see that clients take my opinion more seriously when this happens.After all, it's their decision to commit to this or not. I am curious about the fp1fp2 results! By the way I think with PT5 (and the other sites with two letters) is meant: the site between P5 and T5. Good luck, Daphne Hi ,Thanks so much for adding to what others have offered.Your comments are very pertinent because the mum made it clear last time that 1) the tics reallyaren't a problem, and 2) they do not want to vary the meds regime during term-time at school....this after taking him off meds during the weekend.Part of my problem is that the mum keeps shifting,and more recently the tics have? stopped...no more funny snuffling sounds, but more eyeblinks.It's all the more surprising because the mum is otherwise quite obsessed with healthy living.Your comments re physicians are particularlyhelpful. When we have the conference on friday,I will point these things out to the parents, and,in the nicest possible way, take the fight to themedical profession, and maybe have anotherlook at 'Talking Back to Ritalin.'The mum also said that when his broken ankle heals he'll be playing sport 3 afternoons afterschool, and all weekend, so there won't bemuch time for coming to see me. And the boy is about to start high school!So I will present the info on home training!BTW , what do you especially look for inprocessing patterns in ADHD?Best regards,Jan Re: Re: verbal tic>> >> >> Hi Jan,>> >> in my experience tics (vocal as well as>> motor) are well treated with frontal training.>> Depending on the client I train Fp1-Fp2 (one>> channel; bipolar) at 11-14hz. Maybe even lower, I>> adjust according to reaction. Sometimes a client>> reacts better with Fz 12-15hz.>> Daphne>> >> Jan Osgood>> <josgood@...> wrote:>> Thanks very much, , , Rosemary>> and Deborah,>> (sorry if I left anyone out..)>> >> This really is a challenge. Now the>> parents did not mention tics on intake,>> I thought I was dealing with ADHD. The>> first mention of tics was the email>> a few days ago, although I had noticed>> very soft little clearing throat>> snuffling type noises that day during the>> NF session. We've now had>> 8 sessions.>> >> I noticed but didn't say anything....I>> didn't feel to say in front of the >> child>> 'Hey is that a tic I'm hearing?'>> Fortunately the mum is very good at>> communicating by email.>> >> The mum said yesterday that the tics come>> and go, but they had been>> 'gone' for several months, until this>> week. As it stands, the mum has>> been paying me to bring back the tics!>> Does not make me feel good!>> >> Unless there is some validity in the>> theory that he is now over->> medicated. The mum said she would reduce>> his meds on the>> weekend and see what happened.>> > === message truncated ===> > > __________________________________________________> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 26, 2005 Report Share Posted July 26, 2005 Thanks very much, Daphne, You're right! That's very good advice. In 10 years no other mum has made me work this hard. Time for me to take control! Thanks for PT5 too. See my other post re pre-frontal. It will be very interesting to see what the HEG does with these guys. Jan Re: Re: verbal tic>> >> >> Hi Jan,>> >> in my experience tics (vocal as well as>> motor) are well treated with frontal training.>> Depending on the client I train Fp1-Fp2 (one>> channel; bipolar) at 11-14hz. Maybe even lower, I>> adjust according to reaction. Sometimes a client>> reacts better with Fz 12-15hz.>> Daphne>> >> Jan Osgood>> <josgood@...> wrote:>> Thanks very much, , , Rosemary>> and Deborah,>> (sorry if I left anyone out..)>> >> This really is a challenge. Now the>> parents did not mention tics on intake,>> I thought I was dealing with ADHD. The>> first mention of tics was the email>> a few days ago, although I had noticed>> very soft little clearing throat>> snuffling type noises that day during the>> NF session. We've now had>> 8 sessions.>> >> I noticed but didn't say anything....I>> didn't feel to say in front of the >> child>> 'Hey is that a tic I'm hearing?'>> Fortunately the mum is very good at>> communicating by email.>> >> The mum said yesterday that the tics come>> and go, but they had been>> 'gone' for several months, until this>> week. As it stands, the mum has>> been paying me to bring back the tics!>> Does not make me feel good!>> >> Unless there is some validity in the>> theory that he is now over->> medicated. The mum said she would reduce>> his meds on the>> weekend and see what happened.>> > === message truncated ===> > > __________________________________________________> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 27, 2005 Report Share Posted July 27, 2005 Thank you, Jan, for the tip on reading the prefrontal post. I haven't used the HEG on clients yet. I only had the chance to try it once at the practice of a collegue who is very enthousiastic about the HEG. I didn't feel very well at the time, so I am not sure if it had any effect on me back then... I find that using prefrontal treatment is very useful in clients with OCD, tics and mental chatter (endless loop thinking). In my experience it's no problem mixing fp1fp2 (i.e. 11-14hz) with training other sites, as long as I know which training is doing what (so I start with one and add another site in another session). Having said that I have to say that I am not familiar with the protocols and assesssments that are discussed in this list. It's probably about the same as my own assesssments, but I still have to discover the terminology that's used here and what it means... I will probably have to check out the brain-trainer website for this?? Daphne Jan Osgood <josgood@...> wrote: Thanks very much, Daphne, You're right! That's very good advice. In 10 years no other mum has made me work this hard. Time for me to take control! Thanks for PT5 too. See my other post re pre-frontal. It will be very interesting to see what the HEG does with these guys. Jan Re: Re: verbal tic>> >> >> Hi Jan,>> >> in my experience tics (vocal as well as>> motor) are well treated with frontal training.>> Depending on the client I train Fp1-Fp2 (one>> channel; bipolar) at 11-14hz. Maybe even lower, I>> adjust according to reaction. Sometimes a client>> reacts better with Fz 12-15hz.>> Daphne>> >> Jan Osgood>> <josgood@...> wrote:>> Thanks very much, , , Rosemary>> and Deborah,>> (sorry if I left anyone out..)>> >> This really is a challenge. Now the>> parents did not mention tics on intake,>> I thought I was dealing with ADHD. The>> first mention of tics was the email>> a few days ago, although I had noticed>> very soft little clearing throat>> snuffling type noises that day during the>> NF session. We've now had>> 8 sessions.>> >> I noticed but didn't say anything....I>> didn't feel to say in front of the >> child>> 'Hey is that a tic I'm hearing?'>> Fortunately the mum is very good at>> communicating by email.>> >> The mum said yesterday that the tics come>> and go, but they had been>> 'gone' for several months, until this>> week. As it stands, the mum has>> been paying me to bring back the tics!>> Does not make me feel good!>> >> Unless there is some validity in the>> theory that he is now over->> medicated. The mum said she would reduce>> his meds on the>> weekend and see what happened.>> > === message truncated ===> > > __________________________________________________> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.