Guest guest Posted March 22, 2004 Report Share Posted March 22, 2004 , You're missing the point I was trying to make. What can that one big voice say on behalf of Texas EMS? There are too many differences in providers (both individual and systems) for one group to authoritatively speak (spelled with EA, not EE) for even a majority of EMS. What your system in Nacogdoches needs is going to be very different from the needs of an EMT-B/Firefighter first responder in Austin. And both of your needs are going to be different from an ECA working for an all volunteer service in the South Plains. We're kidding ourselves if we believe that any one organization can speak authoritatively for even a plurality of Texas EMS. And yes, the Legislature does listen to many small voices. The insurance industry is usually divided into lobbying for property and casualty (auto, homeowners, etc.) and life and health insurance. No one organization speaks for all of insurance. Why can't we recognize that, with over 50,000 state certified providers, nobody can speak for all of Texas EMS? Is it ignorance, pride, or just simply protecting turf? -Wes Ogilvie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 22, 2004 Report Share Posted March 22, 2004 I am thinking all the above: Ignorance, Pride, and Protecting Turf. Just a question but does the Attorney's Guild (no offense intended) not have a lobbying force as well? Perhaps the same type of organization would help EMS. You do bring up a good point that Texas is large and diversified, however; the job is the same and most issues are the same. An EMT-Basic in Amarillo still must provide the same standard of care as an EMT-Basic in Brownsville. There are differences in Medical Director preferences, but the job remains the same. The way to bridge gaps can be attributed to different avenues of learning, i.e., sting of a jellyfish Vs bite of a rattlesnake. Working to make those avenues available to all Texas EMS professionals is where the differences lie. There is not a difference in Full Time Vs Volunteer level of care. With proper training and upkeep of knowledge the same level of care can be administered (and should be administered). The difference seems to lie with particular individual sight of the objectives. Just my thoughts. Danny L. Owner/NREMT-P Panhandle Emergency Training Services And Response (PETSAR) Office FAX Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 22, 2004 Report Share Posted March 22, 2004 Danny, The State Bar of Texas does not lobby the Legislature, since we are required to join the bar. There are various attorney groups which do lobby the Legislature. Examples include Texas Criminal Defense Lawyers' Association, Texas Trial Lawyers' Association, and the Texas District and County Attorneys' Association. Likewise, I could see a situation where there would be a Texas Urban EMS Coalition, Texas Rural EMS Association, Association of Volunteer EMS, etc. -Wes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 22, 2004 Report Share Posted March 22, 2004 They're almost like the medical association(s). Et tu, Mr. Bledson? -Wes Ogilvie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 22, 2004 Report Share Posted March 22, 2004 Ron, You're very eloquent in describing the similarities. I don't doubt that are similarities. The very fact that all are certified by TDH is a huge similarity. Again, though - I want to pose this question. What is the common agenda that all of these providers can share? I do agree about an EMS board. It would be a very welcome step towards professionalizing the state of EMS in Texas. Have any of the EMS organizations taken a position regarding the establishment of an EMS board? Has any proposed legislation been drawn up? As I've said before, slogans and feel-good mantras are wonderful to hear, but meaningless. If one of the associations will show me a common agenda for EMS that most can agree on, I'll be on board. Until then, call me a skeptic. -Wes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 22, 2004 Report Share Posted March 22, 2004 Then, in those limited circumstances where it cuts across all groups, you have a Texas EMS Coalition. Smaller groups often create ad hoc coalitions for specific lobbying purposes. -Wes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 22, 2004 Report Share Posted March 22, 2004 Wes, It's not if one orgnization can represent all EMS, its just that one loud voice is heard over many small voices. You cannot listen to many people at one time, but you can hear one loud voice and understand what is being said. We in EMS are in a time of rapid change in many ways, and it is necessary to try to keep reason in those changes. We may not be able to affect any changes, but we will affect no changes if we are not organized and speek with the backing af the majority of EMS. EMS associations? > After witnessing the recent debate over EMSAT, TEMSF, NREMT, and a host of > other acronyms, I'd like to pose a very serious question to the group. > > Is there a need for an association that claims to represent all of Texas EMS? > I'm not kidding -- I just don't see how it's feasible or realistic for one > association to be the voice of ALL of Texas EMS. > > Allow me to illustrate my point here. First, we have both paid and volunteer > medics. We have multiple levels of provider - ECA, EMT-B, EMT-I, 2 flavors of > paramedic, and the flight services typically have RNs. And of course, we > have the occasional doctor (Mr. Bledson, Ed Racht, et al.) who will get their > hands dirty in the field. And there are many ways to deliver EMS in Texas -- fire > departments (e.g. Dallas), third EMS services (e.g. Austin), county > departments (e.g. Fort Bend County), hospital district (e.g. Lubbock), public utility > model (e.g. MedStar), private provider under contract (e.g. AMR-Arlington), > health department (e.g. Beaumont), and of course transfer services. We have > frontier, rural, suburban, and urban services. > > The Vulcans on Star Trek said IDIC -- Infinite Diversity in Infinite > Combinations. That's what we have in Texas EMS. > > I think it is the height of absurdity to presume that any one association can > speak with a unified voice for all Texas licensed/certified providers. Each > of these providers has different needs. > > I'm not trying to start a flame war, really. I just want to know what a > volunteer ECA in the frontiers of West Texas has in common with a paid > firefighter-paramedic in an urban area -- and how a single EMS association can help both. > > -Wes Ogilvie > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 22, 2004 Report Share Posted March 22, 2004 Excellent post. Thanks, Wes, for some clarifying, with examples. Conley Harmon >After witnessing the recent debate over EMSAT, TEMSF, NREMT, and a host of >other acronyms, I'd like to pose a very serious question to the group. > >Is there a need for an association that claims to represent all of Texas EMS? >I'm not kidding -- I just don't see how it's feasible or realistic for one >association to be the voice of ALL of Texas EMS. ---------- --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.590 / Virus Database: 373 - Release Date: 2/16/04 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 22, 2004 Report Share Posted March 22, 2004 Attorney groups lobbying the legislature? Say it ain't so!!!!! Are you sure???? This is the first I have heard of this!!! Bledsoe, DO, FACEP Midlothian, TX Be good and you will be lonesome. -Mark Twain (from " Following the Equator " ) Don't miss EMStock 2004! http://www.emstock.com Re: EMS associations? Danny, The State Bar of Texas does not lobby the Legislature, since we are required to join the bar. There are various attorney groups which do lobby the Legislature. Examples include Texas Criminal Defense Lawyers' Association, Texas Trial Lawyers' Association, and the Texas District and County Attorneys' Association. Likewise, I could see a situation where there would be a Texas Urban EMS Coalition, Texas Rural EMS Association, Association of Volunteer EMS, etc. -Wes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 22, 2004 Report Share Posted March 22, 2004 Good point, Wes- but your focus seems to be our diversity and our differences, yet we do have much common ground: our training, skills, and testing, certification requirements and renewal standards; the reason we got into this profession, and our common interests- the provision of quality preshospital care and the advancement of our profession. EMS currently has no real representation at any level- though certain organizations do exist, they are only representative of a certain faction. For example, EMS helicopter services receive priority for payments from auto liability and bodily injury. If a helicopter is involved, no ground service will be paid until after the helicopter has been paid. I'll bet that was accomplished by a group represenative of EMS flight programs. The IAFF, a very strong organization, will represent its members at any level. I'm not sure to what extent the IAFF would get involved in EMS issues, but its members are only a small portion of EMS. The widely scattered diversity and differences you point out could easily be the best argument we have for the need for such an organization. An individual can only speak for one's self; a group can only speak for its members. We do have common interests and goals that cross all the internal boundaries within ths EMS whole. Is there not a great diversity of practioners in your profession as well? They are all held to a minimum standard by the state bar. That, in my opinion, should be the ultimate goal of such an EMS organization- to establish self-government; an EMS board. With the impending fall of the TDH BEM, the need for such has never been greater. They have been largely responsible for whatever cohesion we have had despite our widespread diversity. They have maintained a minimum standard for all EMS, and have worked to improve EMS. The big question and concern is what will happen to the overall quality of EMS after the dismemberment of TDH. The Bureau of Emergency Management has served as the nearest equivalent of an organization that is representative of the collective interests of its members- all the certified and licensed personnel in Texas. They represent every aspect of EMS- private, volunteer, paid, public, fire dept, city, county. It has served for EMS as a whole. Our diversity and differences are not exaclty infinite, but they are many. Point taken, though. Is it absurd to think it possible? You know EMS well, don't you? Your opinion that such a thing is not feasible must be based on your observation that EMS is comprised of many who will participate in endless infighting and arguing. There is the us vs them mentality, paid vs professional vs volunteer, nobody does EMS like I do EMS, rampant lone-rangerism, and other issues that only serve to weaken EMS and obscure our common vision. It may be unthinkable, unimagineable- but not impossible. RM > After witnessing the recent debate over EMSAT, TEMSF, NREMT, and a host of > other acronyms, I'd like to pose a very serious question to the group. > > Is there a need for an association that claims to represent all of Texas EMS? > I'm not kidding -- I just don't see how it's feasible or realistic for one > association to be the voice of ALL of Texas EMS. > > Allow me to illustrate my point here. First, we have both paid and volunteer > medics. We have multiple levels of provider - ECA, EMT-B, EMT-I, 2 flavors of > paramedic, and the flight services typically have RNs. And of course, we > have the occasional doctor (Mr. Bledson, Ed Racht, et al.) who will get their > hands dirty in the field. And there are many ways to deliver EMS in Texas -- fire > departments (e.g. Dallas), third EMS services (e.g. Austin), county > departments (e.g. Fort Bend County), hospital district (e.g. Lubbock), public utility > model (e.g. MedStar), private provider under contract (e.g. AMR- Arlington), > health department (e.g. Beaumont), and of course transfer services. We have > frontier, rural, suburban, and urban services. > > The Vulcans on Star Trek said IDIC -- Infinite Diversity in Infinite > Combinations. That's what we have in Texas EMS. > > I think it is the height of absurdity to presume that any one association can > speak with a unified voice for all Texas licensed/certified providers. Each > of these providers has different needs. > > I'm not trying to start a flame war, really. I just want to know what a > volunteer ECA in the frontiers of West Texas has in common with a paid > firefighter-paramedic in an urban area -- and how a single EMS association can help both. > > -Wes Ogilvie > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 22, 2004 Report Share Posted March 22, 2004 > Likewise, I could see a situation where there would be a Texas Urban EMS > Coalition, Texas Rural EMS Association, Association of Volunteer EMS, etc. Wes, You raise some unarguable points, and I agree with them. However, (to play what's-his-name's advocate), how would a number of organizations be able to join together when necessary to take a firm stand when all their concerns are the same? If we create, hypothetically 10 coalitions/associations, how strong will we be when we go to legislature alone? 'Tater Salad' Hatfield " I had the right to remain silent, but I did not have the ability. " Don't miss EMStock 2004 www.EMStock.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 22, 2004 Report Share Posted March 22, 2004 Mike , makes the answer, so now to pose the question. Where do we go from here? I mean right here, right now? 'Tater Salad' Hatfield " I had the right to remain silent, but I did not have the ability. " Don't miss EMStock 2004 www.EMStock.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 22, 2004 Report Share Posted March 22, 2004 Phil, Reasonable people can and do disagree. And I appreciate your strong advocacy on behalf of EMSAT. I definitely think that some form of collective voice for EMS is needed -- at times. There are occasionally emergency issues that pop up, requiring EMS to have a collective voice. However, in these circumstances, a coalition of organizations could have been effective. Anyways, we are probably going to disagree on this one. I do look forward to seeing the new directions and positions that the new EMSAT board stakes out. And yes, regardless, I still owe you some ice cream. -Wes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 22, 2004 Report Share Posted March 22, 2004 What EMS needs are much stronger organizations. As Wes explained to me, The State Bar Of Texas licenses attorneys; The Texas Department of Health certifies and licenses EMS; but there are other organizations that pick up where The State Bar leaves off. This is where EMS loses some of our voice. The IAFF has a National Office and has local chapters. All professional organizations have usually national offices and have several local chapters (for lack of better terminology at this time). That is what is needed for Texas. Would EMSAT be inclined to allow this to happen? I noticed a post where an EMS employee organization is also a part of CLEAT. What does the Combined Law Enforcement Association of Texas have knowledge of in EMS? Not that an affiliation with CLEAT is bad, but what issues would CLEAT be an asset in helping to overcome? I believe a stronger organization could be created if local chapters were able to be affiliated with EMSAT. The board of EMSAT then would be able to pick from several persons who are affiliated with their local chapters from across the state. More brains means better information, better information means a stronger voice for Texas EMS. Just a thought. Danny L. Owner/NREMT-P Panhandle Emergency Training Services And Response (PETSAR) Office FAX Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 23, 2004 Report Share Posted March 23, 2004 In a message dated 3/23/04 8:42:53 AM Central Standard Time, mreed_911@... writes: --- petsardlj@... wrote: > I noticed a post where an EMS employee organization is also a part of > CLEAT. > What does the Combined Law Enforcement Association of Texas have > knowledge of > in EMS? Not that an affiliation with CLEAT is bad, but what issues > would > CLEAT be an asset in helping to overcome? Collective Bargaining. Police have been good at that for years, largely because of their ability to attain " civil service " status. In Austin, with the Fire and Police currently discussing contracts, EMS was being left out because they were primarily a civillian service. Fire was even pushing for collective bargaining, a step above " meet and confer. " From what I understand (and I'm not a member, nor do I work directly for A/TC EMS, I am system certified with an FRO), A/TCEMSEA approached the city and were told that they city could work with them better if EMS had a contract. Even as civillians. Thus, the affiliation (in the end, after several other groups were interviewed, too), with CLEAT. My view from the outside - maybe someone " inside " can fix anything I got wrong... Mike My out take of this is that an affiliation is great. What happens when EMS matters conflict with Law Enforcement matters. I mean when the Law Enforcement must choose between a raise for their personnel and not a raise for EMS, will the representation stay the same? Just a thought. Danny L. Owner/NREMT-P Panhandle Emergency Training Services And Response (PETSAR) Office FAX Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 26, 2004 Report Share Posted March 26, 2004 What can CLEAT do for Austin EMS is probably right up the alley of what the Boston Patrolman's Association has done for Boston EMS. But, that's my view. Mike Re: EMS associations? What EMS needs are much stronger organizations. As Wes explained to me, The State Bar Of Texas licenses attorneys; The Texas Department of Health certifies and licenses EMS; but there are other organizations that pick up where The State Bar leaves off. This is where EMS loses some of our voice. The IAFF has a National Office and has local chapters. All professional organizations have usually national offices and have several local chapters (for lack of better terminology at this time). That is what is needed for Texas. Would EMSAT be inclined to allow this to happen? I noticed a post where an EMS employee organization is also a part of CLEAT. What does the Combined Law Enforcement Association of Texas have knowledge of in EMS? Not that an affiliation with CLEAT is bad, but what issues would CLEAT be an asset in helping to overcome? I believe a stronger organization could be created if local chapters were able to be affiliated with EMSAT. The board of EMSAT then would be able to pick from several persons who are affiliated with their local chapters from across the state. More brains means better information, better information means a stronger voice for Texas EMS. Just a thought. Danny L. Owner/NREMT-P Panhandle Emergency Training Services And Response (PETSAR) Office FAX Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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