RE: Mad Medic Shirts

[Guest guest]

From: Schadone

>>Regarding the MadMedic shirts, though, I don't see a problem aside

from >>bad taste if the person(s) responsible for designing the shirts

is/are not

>>representative of EMS. A private corporation, person or entity could,

>>indeed, print and sell these shirts without recourse from the State.

>>OTOH, a licensed or certified provider who has knowingly chose to

abide by >>a professional standard should be censured and/or

disciplined. There are

>>enough of us around that are striving for a higher standard of

>>professionalism that a juvenile attempt at disrespecting those that we

>>advocate for should not be so easily overlooked.

Just curious as to who sets, or who will set the standards for decency?

Who will set the standards for what a person who is associated to EMS,

can do with things such as t-shirts, bumper stickers, books, etc. and

where will the line be?

Mike H

[Guest guest]

There are some excellent points on both sides, Who ever said that a debate

of moral issues could not be conducted with a sense of decorum?

Keep posting.

Mike

RE: Mad Medic Shirts

From: Mike , LP

>> " If this person were in Texas, and certified in Texas, could they be

>>charged by TDH for a rule violation? "

>>The answer seems to be yes, and it's because if the person is

certified in

>>Texas, they agree to abide by the rules.

I agree with the certification and abide by the rules statement, but for

the sake of argument, how does one actually prove that the

creation/design/manufacture or personal wearing of such a t-shirt

constitutes " Conduct detrimental to the public trust and confidence "

I don't see it, not meaning to be what's-his-name's advocate here, but

just because you don't find the humor, or you don't like it, doesn't

necessarily make it wrong, that only makes it 'something you don't

like'. If I buy one and wear it in public and you are offended, tell me,

and I'll change or cover it up. If I buy one and wear it at my house,

and you tell me that I am unprofessional and/or I am showing conduct

detrimental to the public trust and confidence, I will laugh

hysterically while ordering a second one.

You cannot legislate morality, many have tried, and failed. You cannot

presume that your taste is the definition of morality.

All of us, or at least most of us, will admit to telling an off color

joke within the confines of our home, and with our dark sense of humor,

these jokes may or may not have been in regards to a call or a patient.

This is the same thing, so what is the difference between telling that

off color joke in the confines and privacy of your own home, and

creating/designing/wearing that t-shirt in the confines and privacy of

your own home?

Mike

[Guest guest]

Mike,

I'm not advocating that anyone set that standard. As I was discussing with

Wes off-list, I truly hate rules that are of this subjective nature, but

then I have to think about those in the " less-than-common denomination " that

make these rules a necessity (or, do they?).

Mike

RE: Mad Medic Shirts

Just curious as to who sets, or who will set the standards for decency?

Who will set the standards for what a person who is associated to EMS,

can do with things such as t-shirts, bumper stickers, books, etc. and

where will the line be?

Mike H

[Guest guest]

Mike,

I'm not advocating that anyone set that standard. As I was discussing with

Wes off-list, I truly hate rules that are of this subjective nature, but

then I have to think about those in the " less-than-common denomination " that

make these rules a necessity (or, do they?).

Mike

RE: Mad Medic Shirts

Just curious as to who sets, or who will set the standards for decency?

Who will set the standards for what a person who is associated to EMS,

can do with things such as t-shirts, bumper stickers, books, etc. and

where will the line be?

Mike H

[Guest guest]

I agree,

Kinda runs along the line of the warning label that came with my last

firearm.

" Never look down the barrel of a gun while cleaning "

Now, while I consider that to be common sense, there was some moron out

there, who looked down the barrel, shot and killed himself, and his

family sued because S & W never said he SHOULD NOT HAVE DONE THAT.

" Do Not use blow dryer while in the shower "

So you're right, someone does have to set a standard, and unfortunately,

because there are a number of people out there who will argue that they

did something because nobody ever told them that they COULDN'T do it, or

that they SHOULDN'T do it, we have to make rules that reach the

ridiculous and the sublime.

Sad state of affairs we often find ourselves in isn't it?

Mike

RE: Mad Medic Shirts

Just curious as to who sets, or who will set the standards for decency?

Who will set the standards for what a person who is associated to EMS,

can do with things such as t-shirts, bumper stickers, books, etc. and

where will the line be?

Mike H

[Guest guest]

Unfortunately, with some I have seen on this list, relying on their good

judgement is like giving whiskey and the keys to a Ferrari to Beavis and/or

Butthead.

I must disagree about the impression that your T-shirts create. The general

public can and will see these T-shirts. This is NOT the image that EMS needs

to be creating.

When EMS is still trying to create itself as a profession, we do NOT need

another impediment to our development.

Again, ask yourself - what PROFESSION would be caught dead wearing shirts of

this ilk?

Please, introduce yourself to the list and don't hide behind a nickname.

-Wes Ogilvie

[Guest guest]

Well, I really don't know what to say. I guess first off that the

shirts were never made to offend people, just putting the things that

all the medics I have ever encountered joke about on a day-to-day

basis on a few shirts. So you don't have to wonder I am a Paramedic,

there, now you can go cry about that, not that it matters. And I say

that because all aspects of the shirts from trademark and copyright

laws to my states " rules " on EMS were examined by a lawyer to make

sure that I was within my legal right. You people need a hobby; it's

just some t-shirts. If you were not so eaten up with this, you might

be able to enjoy the humor that I bet you good money you've partaken

in yourself at some point in your career. I sent one post to a few

forums to let people know about the shirts, but your crying has taken

up more mailboxes than I ever could, thanks for the publicity! I

noted on the post that they were not for everyone; try to pay

attention next time. And just so you know how I'm doing, you may see

them in your neighbor hood, cause shirts have sold coast to coast and

every state in between. To those of you that like them or just defend

my right to free commerce, thank you, although you may not like them

I applaud your intelligent and vigilant stance for our rights as

Americans.

Thank you

MM

[Guest guest]

've never denied you your right to engage in commerce. On the

contrary, I have taken a specific oath to uphold your right to engage

in free speech and commerce.

Do those t-shirts reflect things that most of us have said? Probably

so, at one point or another. But that does not mean that I would want

to wear those sentiments, written for the general public to see. The

shirts are, in my opinion, in poor taste and not something that I

believe that the vast majority of professional EMS providers would

want to wear.

When this list is discussing opportunites for EMS to organize and

become more professional, you have taken the step of making EMS

appear like a circle of boorish buffoons more suited to

Stern's show than the Mayo Clinic.

In addition, emailing your announcement to multiple Yahoo Groups

could very easily be considered SPAM. That, as I'm sure you know,

violates Yahoo's terms of service for Yahoo Groups.

Will I defend your right to sell them? Absolutely. Will I continue to

criticize the sentiments that the shirts express? Even more

definitely. Your shirts are the equivalent of a Hustler magazine or

a Nazi rally -- disgusting, but still protected by our Constitution.

However, since you have claimed to be an expert on your rights, I

would remind you to research commercial speech cases. The Supreme

Court has held that commercial speech is subject to many more

restrictions than political or artistic speech. Also, I'd remind any

medic who chooses to wear or advertise these shirts in their

workplace that, not only are the shirts a gross violation of

etiquette, they could well be considered to be establishing

a " hostile workplace " under Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964

and its prohibitions against sexual harrassment. As for any state

agency taking action against your license, you voluntarily submitted

to the state's jurisdiction over your actions when you accepted your

EMS provider's certificate.

On a final note, since we're discussing law and rights, I'll remind

the list caveat emptor - let the buyer beware.

-Wes Ogilvie, attorney at law

*NOTE* I am not providing legal advice to the list. Rather, I am

engaging in an unmoderated discussion that may include discussing

relevant legal issues.

> Well, I really don't know what to say. I guess first off that the

> shirts were never made to offend people, just putting the things

that

> all the medics I have ever encountered joke about on a day-to-day

> basis on a few shirts. So you don't have to wonder I am a

Paramedic,

> there, now you can go cry about that, not that it matters. And I

say

> that because all aspects of the shirts from trademark and copyright

> laws to my states " rules " on EMS were examined by a lawyer to make

> sure that I was within my legal right. You people need a hobby;

it's

> just some t-shirts. If you were not so eaten up with this, you

might

> be able to enjoy the humor that I bet you good money you've

partaken

> in yourself at some point in your career. I sent one post to a few

> forums to let people know about the shirts, but your crying has

taken

> up more mailboxes than I ever could, thanks for the publicity! I

> noted on the post that they were not for everyone; try to pay

> attention next time. And just so you know how I'm doing, you may

see

> them in your neighbor hood, cause shirts have sold coast to coast

and

> every state in between. To those of you that like them or just

defend

> my right to free commerce, thank you, although you may not like

them

> I applaud your intelligent and vigilant stance for our rights as

> Americans.

> Thank you

> MM

[Guest guest]

Well, I never said that I was an expert on rights; I said that I had

the EMS rules of my state and the laws on copyrighting and trade

marks reviewed by a lawyer to make sure that I did not fall into any

infringements. Now I cannot control what people do with them after

they buy them. That good judgment is up to them.

I too agree with you that the shirts should not be worn on any call

or while representing any service, that is were the uniform roams.

And the one I wear at work. I promise, is more professional that

most. I don't agree with the thought that a shirt can make EMS look

like buffoons, but rather the conduct of the people wearing them.

Like the two first responders that had to be run off of a scene while

wearing Big EMT and Fire themed shirts and be counseled on

why they choose to respond to a call in street apparel and not their

uniform.

I refuse to believe that a T-shirt could be the pinnacle of demise

in our quest to be seen as a more organized and professional career

choice. I am more inclined to look toward the young age of our

profession, the lack of education, poor organization, and highly

inked poor choices of fellow medics who crash ambulances while

racing, throw fits when not getting discounts at a restaurant, and

miss treating or miss diagnosing the needs of patients. And nothing

makes the profession look worse than the general appearance of EMS

workers while in there uniform. I am disgusted to see medics who run

around in wrinkled uniforms with multicolored zip ties holding the

zippers in their unpolished boots, unshaven with the undershirts

showing out of the sleeves, and even with there shirts untucked while

not on a call. Nothing I put on a shirt will ever make EMS look as

bad as someone who cannot even have the pride in there selves to take

care of there uniform and hygiene, EVER.

I resent that implication that because I made t-shirts with the

intent of doing something fun for myself and fellow workers that I am

a poor medic, not a medic at all or an not professional, nothing

could be further from the truth. Remember not to judge a book by the

cover.

And just a though on EMS ---Without humility of self you run the

risk of loosing track of what is important, the patients, not a need

to be praised by the public. Someday EMS will have the respect and

image that it deserves, but without the cooperation of all EMS

services from private and volunteer to public service this is a goal

that is currently unreachable. 911 medics cannot get along with

volunteers and visa-versa, and both look down on the private

services, and why, why does one group feel that they are so superior

to another. All medics are needed and no one should ever be mislead

to think that his position is more important than another, or for

that matter, not important at all. Have you ever really figured out

how many 911 calls were " just transfers? " And the people

running EMS

services from top to bottom have there employees represent EMS as

everything from garbage collectors to Marines. The problems with EMS

run so deep that it is hard to have a clear image of were to start,

but I feel confident that though it is still struggling through

it's

infancy EMS will someday be a career sought after by many for what it

is, a wonderful, rewarding choice of life.

MM