Re: in Vienna: SU bicollis article (preg / m/c ment)

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

> Thanks for the articles.Where did you found that?>

Along with some others, it is posted on this page:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MullerianAnomalies/links

> I think I should show them to me gyn.But perhaps I know more than

him and he

> dosn`t like that.>

Well, that could be, some doctors don't like their patients to know

more than they do. BUT, our condition of SU bicollis is so rare,

that many OB's / Gyn's do not have the latest research about it.

That is what my own Dr. admitted. She told me I was the ONLY person

with SU bicollis until I showed her this article and other research I

had done. Your doctor should understand that you are trying to learn

as much as you can because you want to do what is best so that you

can have a baby.

> It is really amazing!The 20year old girl has the same than as have

, haven`t

> she?

> Then I think I have really the same, havent I?What do you

think?Have you

> ever read my surgery-report, I send you?>

My friend had a hard time to translate it because of the medical

terminology that she is unfamiliar with. I think it is possible we

have the same, but...I think they need to decide if your division is

a septum or not, by determining the vascularity of the dividng wall.

It sounds like this is what they are confused about?

> Do you know how I can find out if the septum is endometrium or not?>

This is a good question and would determine whether it is a true

septum or uterus didelphys (UD). If UD, the dividng wall would be

endometrium. Can they do an endometrial biopsy when they do your

next hysteroscopy? Another way is by a special ultrasound called

color doppler which determines if the septum is vascular (if there is

blood flow in the septum) or not.

In my case, once they looked in my uterus with the hysteroscope, they

knew it wasn't UD becuase the septum didn't go all the way down to

bottom of my uterus, where the cervices are. It went 3/4 the way

down. It sounds like in your case the division, or septum, goes all

the way down to the cervices - is this true? Also, both my cervices

led to each side of the uterus (like two tunnels leading to the same

cave), so once this was discoverd, it was obvious that they were not

2 seperate cavities. This was first noticed when I was pregnant the

first time and started to miscarry. The cervix on the side that the

baby was not implanted in was opening up, and the cervix on the side

that I was pregnant in was tightly closed.

As I said before, there are 2 members possibly like us here: Gabi,

who lives in Eastern Europe, has an MA similar to ours (or yours?).

Her doctors think she has a " fused UD " - two cavities with 2

cervices, but that the middle wall is fused, or attached together. It

is hard to say, though, becuase I don't know if she has had the

proper tests done either. The good news is that she is about to give

birth any day with her first baby, with no prior losses. Another

member, , has the same " fused UD " diagnosis, and also gave birth

last year to her first. I think, though, that in your case, they are

suspecting a septum. If they really know that it is, or once they

determine that it is a septum, then surgery can be an option to

seriously consider.

Are you thinking of going outside of Vienna for treatment?

> When I read this sides I thougt it would be better to cancel the

seputum

> before I had a second m/c.Why did you wait up 2 m/c?.

Well, if it is a septum, then yes, you are at higher risk for more

miscarriages if yo do not have the surgery. But, the surgery will

only help if it truly is a septum. Some women do have septums that

they don't have removed, but they still have healthy babies. It is a

gamble - no guarantees. Some, like many of us on the list, have

several miscarriages and so decide to have surgery. I waited to have

the surgery to take out the septum until after 2 m/c because #1 I

didn't know I had a septum before the first miscarriage, because I

had the wrong diagnosis (they thought I had a bicornuate uterus

because they only did an HSG test, which is not enough) and #2 I got

pregnant the second time while I was waiting to have surgery

scheduled. When this pregnancy also miscarried, I stopped trying to

get pregnant, and then had the surgery, because I didn't want to have

any more miscarriages that were possibly (or probably) caused by the

septum.

SU resected, bicollis

[Guest guest]

Hi Kathy!

I didn`t know that your septum didn`t go all the way down.So the OB couln`t hurt

your cercix.I am afair that the OB hurt my cervix and than the Cerivix is IC.

Do you know that it is possible to take a biopsie from the wall by my next

hysteropkopie or is it an idea from you?

I am really so confused, don`t know what I shall do.The first thing I had to do

is to wait for the next HSK.

Do you have contact to Gabi or ?Did they born vaginal or c-section?And on

term or premmie?

What do you think where can I go to treatment?I think I had no chance than

vienna, haven``t I?USA, is so far away and too expensive for me.

I will speak tomorrow to you.It is late and I would like to go to bed now.

Thanks and bye

Let me send nice wishes to your baby

Re: in Vienna: SU bicollis article (preg

/ m/c ment)

Hi ,

> Thanks for the articles.Where did you found that?>

Along with some others, it is posted on this page:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MullerianAnomalies/links

> I think I should show them to me gyn.But perhaps I know more than

him and he

> dosn`t like that.>

Well, that could be, some doctors don't like their patients to know

more than they do. BUT, our condition of SU bicollis is so rare,

that many OB's / Gyn's do not have the latest research about it.

That is what my own Dr. admitted. She told me I was the ONLY person

with SU bicollis until I showed her this article and other research I

had done. Your doctor should understand that you are trying to learn

as much as you can because you want to do what is best so that you

can have a baby.

> It is really amazing!The 20year old girl has the same than as have

, haven`t

> she?

> Then I think I have really the same, havent I?What do you

think?Have you

> ever read my surgery-report, I send you?>

My friend had a hard time to translate it because of the medical

terminology that she is unfamiliar with. I think it is possible we

have the same, but...I think they need to decide if your division is

a septum or not, by determining the vascularity of the dividng wall.

It sounds like this is what they are confused about?

> Do you know how I can find out if the septum is endometrium or not?>

This is a good question and would determine whether it is a true

septum or uterus didelphys (UD). If UD, the dividng wall would be

endometrium. Can they do an endometrial biopsy when they do your

next hysteroscopy? Another way is by a special ultrasound called

color doppler which determines if the septum is vascular (if there is

blood flow in the septum) or not.

In my case, once they looked in my uterus with the hysteroscope, they

knew it wasn't UD becuase the septum didn't go all the way down to

bottom of my uterus, where the cervices are. It went 3/4 the way

down. It sounds like in your case the division, or septum, goes all

the way down to the cervices - is this true? Also, both my cervices

led to each side of the uterus (like two tunnels leading to the same

cave), so once this was discoverd, it was obvious that they were not

2 seperate cavities. This was first noticed when I was pregnant the

first time and started to miscarry. The cervix on the side that the

baby was not implanted in was opening up, and the cervix on the side

that I was pregnant in was tightly closed.

As I said before, there are 2 members possibly like us here: Gabi,

who lives in Eastern Europe, has an MA similar to ours (or yours?).

Her doctors think she has a " fused UD " - two cavities with 2

cervices, but that the middle wall is fused, or attached together. It

is hard to say, though, becuase I don't know if she has had the

proper tests done either. The good news is that she is about to give

birth any day with her first baby, with no prior losses. Another

member, , has the same " fused UD " diagnosis, and also gave birth

last year to her first. I think, though, that in your case, they are

suspecting a septum. If they really know that it is, or once they

determine that it is a septum, then surgery can be an option to

seriously consider.

Are you thinking of going outside of Vienna for treatment?

> When I read this sides I thougt it would be better to cancel the

seputum

> before I had a second m/c.Why did you wait up 2 m/c?.

Well, if it is a septum, then yes, you are at higher risk for more

miscarriages if yo do not have the surgery. But, the surgery will

only help if it truly is a septum. Some women do have septums that

they don't have removed, but they still have healthy babies. It is a

gamble - no guarantees. Some, like many of us on the list, have

several miscarriages and so decide to have surgery. I waited to have

the surgery to take out the septum until after 2 m/c because #1 I

didn't know I had a septum before the first miscarriage, because I

had the wrong diagnosis (they thought I had a bicornuate uterus

because they only did an HSG test, which is not enough) and #2 I got

pregnant the second time while I was waiting to have surgery

scheduled. When this pregnancy also miscarried, I stopped trying to

get pregnant, and then had the surgery, because I didn't want to have

any more miscarriages that were possibly (or probably) caused by the

septum.

SU resected, bicollis

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

> I didn`t know that your septum didn`t go all the way down.So the OB

couln`t hurt your cercix.I am afair that the OB hurt my cervix and

than the Cerivix is IC.>

Do you mean that during surgery to remove the septum you are worried

about the cervix being harmed? Usually, the surgeon would not touch

the septum in the cervical area for this reason. Beth here had a

septum which was involving her one cervix ( the septum extends

through the internal cevical OS), and when the septum was removed,

that bit of septum was left in place, to keep it strong and to not

make a greater risk of IC. That bit of septum left around the cervix

would not cause any problems for a pregnancy.

> Do you know that it is possible to take a biopsie from the wall by

my next hysteropkopie or is it an idea from you?.>

Yes, an endometrial biopsy can be done during hysteroscopy. But,

this was my idea - I don't know if this is a good way to determine if

the division is a septum or not. I will ask others on this list what

they think. But I think you can ask your doctor this too - why not,

because scraping a bit of this wall would be able to tell if it is

endometrium or not, although sometimes septums can be covered with a

bit of endometrium. I guess this is where the ultimate confusion

lies in your case - they don't know if this dividing wall is un-

vascular septum tissue or if it is vascualr endometrium.

> I am really so confused, don`t know what I shall do.The first thing

I had to do is to wait for the next HSK..>

I know, I feel very bad that you don't have many options, I can

understand how heartbreaking this must be for you.

> Do you have contact to Gabi or ?Did they born vaginal or c-

section?And on term or premmie?>

is not a member any more, but here is a link to photos of her

baby:

http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/mulleriananomalies/lst?.dir=/Our+

Kids/Peyton+Shea & .src=gr & .order= & .view=t & .done=http%

(or check out the photos section of the MA homepage, Our Kids folder,

Peyton Shea's photos, in case I copied this link wrong).

gave birth at full term, vaginally (I think???)

Gabi's e-mail is: glaznjak@..., but I think she is about ready

to give birth. She will be at full term, but I don't know if she is

having a c-section or a vaginal birth. She has had a very good

pregnancy. She will post again, I'm sure, if you send her a message,

I think she's just busy with the end of her pregnancy.

> What do you think where can I go to treatment?I think I had no

chance than vienna, haven``t I?USA, is so far away and too expensive

for me.>

Yes, I understand - it would be very expensive to go to the US. Tor

posted a message for you with info about her UK doctors. One Dr.

does not suggest surgery, although she will do it now after Tor has

had 4 m/c. The other Dr. also does surgery for SU. Would it be too

expensive to go to the UK?

> Let me send nice wishes to your baby

That is very sweet, thank you .

SU resected, bicollis

[Guest guest]

> Do you mean that during surgery to remove the septum you are

worried

> about the cervix being harmed? Usually, the surgeon would not

touch

> the septum in the cervical area for this reason. Beth here had a

> septum which was involving her one cervix ( the septum extends

> through the internal cevical OS), and when the septum was removed,

> that bit of septum was left in place, to keep it strong and to not

> make a greater risk of IC. That bit of septum left around the

cervix

> would not cause any problems for a pregnancy.

Hi ,

Just a little correction here. My septum ends *at* the internal os,

so the os was double (and still is, mainly because the original

resection was done by feel, not by sight).

But the actual cervix never had septum tissue in it. (and for what it

is worth, it did get incompetent on me, but not because surgery had

been done on it)

The surgical omission you mention is sometimes done, preserving the

septum running through the cervix, to keep the strength. But studies

show that excising cervical septum is not shown to lead to

incompetence. I think these studies are small, however.

>

> > Do you know that it is possible to take a biopsie from the wall

by

> my next hysteropkopie or is it an idea from you?.>

>

> Yes, an endometrial biopsy can be done during hysteroscopy. But,

> this was my idea - I don't know if this is a good way to determine

if

> the division is a septum or not.

A septum will always be covered in endometrium, too. It may be a

poor grade of endometrium, however. I wonder if wants to know

if the structure of her septum/division is myometrium (uterine wall

muscle) or fiber. Doppler ultrasound can show this to some extent,

as can regular US, and maybe MRI, too.

I read someplace that 70% of true fibrous septa do have strips of

myometrial tissue in them, so it's never really extremely clear.

> is not a member any more, but here is a link to photos of her

> baby:

If you look in the archives (the search box on the main Yahoo

Müllerian anomalies page) for her e-mail address, you may be able to

write to her in private.

Beth

SU

[Guest guest]

Beth,

I really soooo confused.In this post you have written that is possible to find

out if the seputm is endometum or other tissue with US, MRi and biopsy

Do I understand the wrong thing?

Bye

Re: in Vienna: SU bicollis article (preg

/ m/c ment)

> Do you mean that during surgery to remove the septum you are

worried

> about the cervix being harmed? Usually, the surgeon would not

touch

> the septum in the cervical area for this reason. Beth here had a

> septum which was involving her one cervix ( the septum extends

> through the internal cevical OS), and when the septum was removed,

> that bit of septum was left in place, to keep it strong and to not

> make a greater risk of IC. That bit of septum left around the

cervix

> would not cause any problems for a pregnancy.

Hi ,

Just a little correction here. My septum ends *at* the internal os,

so the os was double (and still is, mainly because the original

resection was done by feel, not by sight).

But the actual cervix never had septum tissue in it. (and for what it

is worth, it did get incompetent on me, but not because surgery had

been done on it)

The surgical omission you mention is sometimes done, preserving the

septum running through the cervix, to keep the strength. But studies

show that excising cervical septum is not shown to lead to

incompetence. I think these studies are small, however.

>

> > Do you know that it is possible to take a biopsie from the wall

by

> my next hysteropkopie or is it an idea from you?.>

>

> Yes, an endometrial biopsy can be done during hysteroscopy. But,

> this was my idea - I don't know if this is a good way to determine

if

> the division is a septum or not.

A septum will always be covered in endometrium, too. It may be a

poor grade of endometrium, however. I wonder if wants to know

if the structure of her septum/division is myometrium (uterine wall

muscle) or fiber. Doppler ultrasound can show this to some extent,

as can regular US, and maybe MRI, too.

I read someplace that 70% of true fibrous septa do have strips of

myometrial tissue in them, so it's never really extremely clear.

> is not a member any more, but here is a link to photos of her

> baby:

If you look in the archives (the search box on the main Yahoo

Müllerian anomalies page) for her e-mail address, you may be able to

write to her in private.

Beth

SU

[Guest guest]

> Beth,

> I really soooo confused.In this post you have written that is

possible to find out if the seputm is endometum or other tissue with

US, MRi and biopsy

> Do I understand the wrong thing?

Yes, these techniques can often tell if the septum is *myometrium* or

fibrous tissue with a poor blood supply.

Myometrium is normal muscular uterine wall. If the wall dividing

your uterus is mostly myometrium, then surgery is not indicated.

Endometrium is the lining that nourishes an embryo. Both kinds

of " septum " --operable and inoperable-- are covered with endometrium.

On an operable septum, the endomterial covering is of a poor quality.

Beth

SU