Guest guest Posted September 30, 2007 Report Share Posted September 30, 2007 (I posted this again as I accidentally responded to another post with it when I wanted it to be a new topic. I deleted prior post). Hi Val, I belonged to STTM. This link is my history there. http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/community/viewtopic.php? t=9215 & postdays=0 & postorder=asc & start=0 Since I last spoke to you I went through another thyroid spell about 3 weeks ago. I had been on 20mg of Isocort for a few months. I guess it wasn't enough as the thyroid hormones started building up in my blood as I got heart tenderness and weird stabbing burning like pains around where my ribs are on my left side. It got worse and noticed my temp. was 100. (This has been happening before I started for a couple years and also while on Isocort). So I backed off my thyroid meds. and was hoping to get down to 98.6 and start my meds. again but I can never seem to get there before getting a migraine which means I am then hypo. So even if I'm 99. something I have to take a 1/4grain of thyroid med. to get rid of the migraine. I then keep waiting for my temp to go down to 98.6-98.8 (and symptoms subside) or so before adding more thyroid meds. Have you heard of others experiencing hypothyroidism with high temps? I have to start my thyroid meds. before normal temps. as the migraines get so bad. Guess this shows how bad my metabolism is. At this time while my temp. was being lowered I started some HC. I started with 10mg a day and now have been taking 20mg for a couple weeks 10,5,2.5,2.5. At first I got thyroid dump but now I'm OK. I'm hoping taking the HC will prevent these thyroid spells I usually get. I think I need to work up to 2 grains of thyroid meds. and get my TSH tested but I can never get to 2 grains for very long before I have a thyroid spell. I've been at about 2 grains for a week so we'll see what happens. (As mentioned above I restarted at 1/4 grain to ease migraines and have been increasing it every 5-7 days or so). If I have another thyroid spell would you say I need to increase my HC and if so how much? I also have been slowly increasing some Florinef since I crave salt terribly. Even though I'm taking .1 of Florinef a day I still crave the same amount of salt (LOTS). What does this mean? I thought the Florinef would help alot? I am going through a bad spell of hypoglycemia. Usually a meal can hold me 2-3 hours even if I feel slightly hungry but the past few days I feel hungry non stop. Nothing holds me even if I eat alot of protein. Can an increase in thyroid meds. make it worse? I do have Candida but it's fairly under control. I did a search for leaky gut syndrome which I have as my candida is systemic and the internet said sometimes you can feel hungry alot if you have low stomach acid so I got some HCL because for my blood type we are known to have low levels of HCL. (If you believe in that stuff). If you don't have enough HCL the protein you consume isn't being properly digested. So anyway, I bought some and my hypoglycemia is alittle better. Do you think if I increased the HC it would help the hypoglycemia? These are some of my stats since taking 20mg HC and .1 Florinef. Average temperature taken 3 times a day over 3 days...37.1 (98.8). (Sometimes taken 5 hours apart....) My B/P: sitting 106/71 pulse 88 laying down 103/66 pulse 70 standing (got dizzy) 119/82 pulse 98 (# is higher when it should be lower to show adrenal weakness? Often my # is higher than lower.) I went online to make sure the # should be lower to show adrenal weakness and one site said to do it from sitting to standing. This time the number was lower. sitting 111/72 pulse 79 standing 101/77 90 When I was waiting for my temperature to go down after my last thyroid spell I had just started the HC and my B/P was around 122/80 but that's when my temp. was high. Now that my temp. is fairly normal my B/P is back to being low and the HC and Florinef doesn't seem to be affecting it as I'm usually around 100-110. Any advice would be great. Sorry for so many questions. It's been awhile since I talked to you and want your opinion on my dosing. Hope you're doing well. I miss STTM! Cheryl Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 30, 2007 Report Share Posted September 30, 2007 I woiuld not use migrains as a hypo determination. MANY things can cause them. I would suggest getting current T3 and RT3 labs as this can also be from thyroid resistance and high RT3. -- Artistic Grooming- Hurricane WV http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/ http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/NaturalThyroidHormonesADRENALS/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 30, 2007 Report Share Posted September 30, 2007 Hello! I'm sure Val will be along to answer any issues I cannot help you with. I understand this hypo headache -- I get those, too! Have you had your reverse t3 checked? I am wondering if this is a possible source of your high temps? When you say " thyroid spell " , do you just mean the headaches or do you mean you feel like you're going hyper? If you're not tolerating Armour, even on Isocort, I have a few suggestions. The first is to stay on Isocort a bit longer before trying to ramp up on Armour. It can take a few months for the adrenal support to really help and increasing Armour during that time period is not good. I understand you are feeling hypo, but please take my word for it, from plenty of bad experiences, that increasing thyroid when your adrenals are not ready will not make you feel better, either. The second is to check for rt3. You may feel poorly when you get up to a decent Armour dose because of rt3 and conversion problems. This only stresses your adrenals further and so causes a double whammy of bad symptoms. Third is to are your temps -- are they fluctuating by .2 or less every day? That will show whether your adrenals are still weak. I would do all of those before increasing the Isocort. If you're taking more Armour than your body (adrenals) can handle right now, it's very possible you are going low on cortisol and getting hypogycemic. That's why I stress to not raise the Armour right now, give the Isocort some more time, and check the rt3. Plus do temp graph to see if it's the adrenals needing more time to heal before taking thyroid meds or increasing them. I'm not sure if you will crave less salt on Florinef or not. I had low aldosterone and never craved the salt -- but I was dizzy, so I needed the salt anyway. Are you still dizzy when you stand up? Are your ankles swelling (which would be too much Florinef.) It's okay to eat salt while on Florinef! If your body needs it (and your BP is dropping when you stand up, so you may very well need all that salt), then go ahead and eat it. After a few more weeks on Isocort, that may help the BP as well. How long have you been on Florinef? Sometimes it takes a bit for the sodium issue to balance out, but it's not unheard of to need more. If your ankles start to swell, though, I would say you're taking too much. Kathleen .. So I backed off my thyroid meds. > and was hoping to get down to 98.6 and start my meds. again but I > can > never seem to get there before getting a migraine which means I am > then hypo. So even if I'm 99. something I have to take a 1/4grain > of > thyroid med. to get rid of the migraine. I then keep waiting for my > temp to go down to 98.6-98.8 (and symptoms subside) or so before > adding more thyroid meds. Have you heard of others experiencing > hypothyroidism with high temps? I have to start my thyroid meds. > before normal temps. as the migraines get so bad. Guess this shows > how bad my metabolism is. > > At this time while my temp. was being lowered I started some HC. I > started with 10mg a day and now have been taking 20mg for a couple > weeks 10,5,2.5,2.5. At first I got thyroid dump but now I'm OK. > I'm > hoping taking the HC will prevent these thyroid spells I usually > get. > I think I need to work up to 2 grains of thyroid meds. and get my > TSH > tested but I can never get to 2 grains for very long before I have a > thyroid spell. I've been at about 2 grains for a week so we'll see > what happens. (As mentioned above I restarted at 1/4 grain to ease > migraines and have been increasing it every 5-7 days or so). If I > have another thyroid spell would you say I need to increase my HC > and > if so how much? > > I also have been slowly increasing some Florinef since I crave salt > terribly. > Even though I'm taking .1 of Florinef a day I still crave the same > amount of salt (LOTS). What does this mean? I thought the Florinef > would help alot? > > I am going through a bad spell of hypoglycemia. Usually a meal can > hold me 2-3 hours even if I feel slightly hungry but the past few > days > I feel hungry non stop. Nothing holds me even if I eat alot of > protein. Can an increase in thyroid > meds. make it worse? I do have Candida but it's fairly under > control. I did a search for leaky gut syndrome which I have as my > candida is systemic and the internet said sometimes you can feel > hungry alot if you have low stomach acid so I got some HCL because > for > my blood type we are known to have low levels of HCL. (If you > believe > in that stuff). If you don't have enough HCL the protein you > consume > isn't being properly digested. So anyway, I bought some and my > hypoglycemia is alittle better. Do you think if I increased the HC > it > would help the hypoglycemia? > > These are some of my stats since taking 20mg HC and .1 Florinef. > Average temperature taken 3 times a day over 3 days...37.1 (98.8). > (Sometimes taken 5 hours apart....) > > My B/P: > sitting 106/71 pulse 88 > laying down 103/66 pulse 70 > standing (got dizzy) 119/82 pulse 98 (# is higher when it should be > lower to show adrenal weakness? Often my # is higher than lower.) > > I went online to make sure the # should be lower to show adrenal > weakness and one site said to do it from sitting to standing. This > time the number was lower. > sitting 111/72 pulse 79 > standing 101/77 90 > > When I was waiting for my temperature to go down after my last > thyroid > spell I had just started the HC and my B/P was around 122/80 but > that's when my temp. was high. Now that my temp. is fairly normal > my > B/P is back to being low and the HC and Florinef doesn't seem to be > affecting it as I'm usually around 100-110. > > Any advice would be great. Sorry for so many questions. It's been > awhile since I talked to you and want your opinion on my dosing. > > Hope you're doing well. I miss STTM! > > Cheryl > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 30, 2007 Report Share Posted September 30, 2007 I can attest to this as I have suffered the effects of trying to increase A from 1 grain to 1 1/2, twice now - once without Iso and again this weekend after being on 20mg of Iso for a week and it wasn't pretty. I cut my A back to 1/2 grain total today and felt a little better, but had the hypo headache for half of the day and was back to falling asleep in the middle of the day after lunch. I guess my question, especially for Kathleen as you went through this, is whether Iso is likely to work well enough to wait, or just go straight to Cortef, assuming that I can get a doc to prescribe it, or that I get over my reluctance to obtain it without a prescription. I recall you writing that it took months to feel better on Iso, and then a couple of weeks to feel better on Cortef. I don't know that my adrenals are in as bad a shape as yours were, but I know how bad I felt trying to increase the Armour while taking the Iso and if it is never likely to help enough, that helps me make my decision about Cortef. Meanwhile the hypo symptoms are no ball of laughs either. Thanks, > > Hello! > > I'm sure Val will be along to answer any issues I cannot help you > > If you're not tolerating Armour, even on Isocort, I have a few > suggestions. The first is to stay on Isocort a bit longer before > trying to ramp up on Armour. It can take a few months for the adrenal > support to really help and increasing Armour during that time period > is not good. I understand you are feeling hypo, but please take my > word for it, from plenty of bad experiences, that increasing thyroid > when your adrenals are not ready will not make you feel better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 30, 2007 Report Share Posted September 30, 2007 Hi there, Thanks for responding. No I haven't had my T3 tested. I want to get to optimal Cortef and Armour levels and then get my FT3 and FT4 tested. (For me 2 grains is a good ball mark amount for me to get tested as I was up to 180 Synthroid before. I've never been able to find my true Armour amount because I've been having these thyroid spells for 4 years). If my thyroid is in range and I'm still not well I want to try Cytomel. (In Canada they don't test for RT3). Val has suspected I may have a problem with T3 but I figure I should try and get my cortisol straightened out first and get my TSH checked and see where I'm at. I know the TSH test is flawed but it still gives some idea of where you're at. My problem for the last few years is I would have to stop and start my thyroid med. because I would get terrible symptoms (fluttery feeling where thyroid gland is, pressure type feeling in chest, more fatigue and pain than normal (I have CFS/FM). Gradually symptoms worsened to migraines and pain and tenderness in the heart area. I guess these were hyper type symptoms but I was very hypo. When I stopped my meds. symptoms would die down and then come back again after starting meds. up. I found out through STTM that is was caused from low cortisol and was causing the thyroid hormones to build up in the blood. I started Isocort in May and have had a few 'thyroid spells' since then. I'm in Canada so I'm not able to order Cortef on my own but finally found a doctor who prescribed it. So the first week of Sept. I started the Cortef and I'm hoping it's going to be better for me than the Isocort. I need Val to guide me as to when and if I should work my way up 25-35mg if 20mg isn't enough. I wonder if an increase will help with the hypoglycemia. When I said 'thyroid spell' it's how I described above. When I feel hyper but I'm hypo and if I stay off my meds. to long (trying to get my temps. down as the hormones are building up in my blood) I get the terrible terrible migraine. I then have to start on a low dose of Armour to get rid of it even if my temp is 99 something (close to 100). I take it to get rid of it and when temps. start lowering more I ease into more thyroid. I know not to increase Armour without sufficient Isocort and because I still was having problems that tells me the Isocort wasn't strong enough. I just started HC 3 weeks ago and have managed to get my thyroid up to 2 grains for the past week. If I can last 4-6 weeks on 2 grains then that will tell me the HC is helping. If I have a set back then I guess my HC needs to be increased. It's all trial and error. As for my temps. they are fluctuating badly. For instance one day the morning was 37.2 and the night was 36.7. (99 and 98F). Every day they are fluctating more or less than .2 but I'm still trying to get myself on a correct thyroid dose too. (But my past shows me even if I'm on the right dose to be in TSH limits my temp. is always fluctuating). I still get dizzy when standing up even while taking Florenif. For instance taking my B/P while laying down and then standing up to take it again, I will get dizzy. I very often will get dizzy when I'm crouched down looking at something on the bottom of a shelf in a store and will get dizzy when I try to stand up. I started HC and Florinef Sept. 9th. Prior to that I have been on 20mg Isocort since around May 25th. (I was even having problems with 1 grain while on Isocort. I started the Isocort slow as per Val). I had a couple bad spells with it so to me it's weak and I need the HC as cortisol levels are still too low. With the Florinef I don't have any swelling in the ankles. I have heard of some people taking .2 so wonder if I should try that. There's always sea salt too. I took Sea salt before the Florinef and it did nothing but maybe it would help with the Florinef. Thanks for your comments as well ! Cheryl > > Hello! > > I'm sure Val will be along to answer any issues I cannot help you > with. > > I understand this hypo headache -- I get those, too! > > Have you had your reverse t3 checked? I am wondering if this is a > possible source of your high temps? > > When you say " thyroid spell " , do you just mean the headaches or do > you mean you feel like you're going hyper? > > If you're not tolerating Armour, even on Isocort, I have a few > suggestions. The first is to stay on Isocort a bit longer before > trying to ramp up on Armour. It can take a few months for the adrenal > support to really help and increasing Armour during that time period > is not good. I understand you are feeling hypo, but please take my > word for it, from plenty of bad experiences, that increasing thyroid > when your adrenals are not ready will not make you feel better, > either. > > The second is to check for rt3. You may feel poorly when you get up > to a decent Armour dose because of rt3 and conversion problems. This > only stresses your adrenals further and so causes a double whammy of > bad symptoms. > > Third is to are your temps -- are they fluctuating by .2 or less > every day? That will show whether your adrenals are still weak. > > I would do all of those before increasing the Isocort. > > If you're taking more Armour than your body (adrenals) can handle > right now, it's very possible you are going low on cortisol and > getting hypogycemic. That's why I stress to not raise the Armour > right now, give the Isocort some more time, and check the rt3. Plus > do temp graph to see if it's the adrenals needing more time to heal > before taking thyroid meds or increasing them. > > I'm not sure if you will crave less salt on Florinef or not. I had > low aldosterone and never craved the salt -- but I was dizzy, so I > needed the salt anyway. Are you still dizzy when you stand up? Are > your ankles swelling (which would be too much Florinef.) It's okay to > eat salt while on Florinef! If your body needs it (and your BP is > dropping when you stand up, so you may very well need all that salt), > then go ahead and eat it. After a few more weeks on Isocort, that may > help the BP as well. How long have you been on Florinef? Sometimes it > takes a bit for the sodium issue to balance out, but it's not unheard > of to need more. If your ankles start to swell, though, I would say > you're taking too much. > > Kathleen > > . So I backed off my thyroid meds. > > and was hoping to get down to 98.6 and start my meds. again but I > > can > > never seem to get there before getting a migraine which means I am > > then hypo. So even if I'm 99. something I have to take a 1/4grain > > of > > thyroid med. to get rid of the migraine. I then keep waiting for my > > temp to go down to 98.6-98.8 (and symptoms subside) or so before > > adding more thyroid meds. Have you heard of others experiencing > > hypothyroidism with high temps? I have to start my thyroid meds. > > before normal temps. as the migraines get so bad. Guess this shows > > how bad my metabolism is. > > > > At this time while my temp. was being lowered I started some HC. I > > started with 10mg a day and now have been taking 20mg for a couple > > weeks 10,5,2.5,2.5. At first I got thyroid dump but now I'm OK. > > I'm > > hoping taking the HC will prevent these thyroid spells I usually > > get. > > I think I need to work up to 2 grains of thyroid meds. and get my > > TSH > > tested but I can never get to 2 grains for very long before I have a > > thyroid spell. I've been at about 2 grains for a week so we'll see > > what happens. (As mentioned above I restarted at 1/4 grain to ease > > migraines and have been increasing it every 5-7 days or so). If I > > have another thyroid spell would you say I need to increase my HC > > and > > if so how much? > > > > I also have been slowly increasing some Florinef since I crave salt > > terribly. > > Even though I'm taking .1 of Florinef a day I still crave the same > > amount of salt (LOTS). What does this mean? I thought the Florinef > > would help alot? > > > > I am going through a bad spell of hypoglycemia. Usually a meal can > > hold me 2-3 hours even if I feel slightly hungry but the past few > > days > > I feel hungry non stop. Nothing holds me even if I eat alot of > > protein. Can an increase in thyroid > > meds. make it worse? I do have Candida but it's fairly under > > control. I did a search for leaky gut syndrome which I have as my > > candida is systemic and the internet said sometimes you can feel > > hungry alot if you have low stomach acid so I got some HCL because > > for > > my blood type we are known to have low levels of HCL. (If you > > believe > > in that stuff). If you don't have enough HCL the protein you > > consume > > isn't being properly digested. So anyway, I bought some and my > > hypoglycemia is alittle better. Do you think if I increased the HC > > it > > would help the hypoglycemia? > > > > These are some of my stats since taking 20mg HC and .1 Florinef. > > Average temperature taken 3 times a day over 3 days...37.1 (98.8). > > (Sometimes taken 5 hours apart....) > > > > My B/P: > > sitting 106/71 pulse 88 > > laying down 103/66 pulse 70 > > standing (got dizzy) 119/82 pulse 98 (# is higher when it should be > > lower to show adrenal weakness? Often my # is higher than lower.) > > > > I went online to make sure the # should be lower to show adrenal > > weakness and one site said to do it from sitting to standing. This > > time the number was lower. > > sitting 111/72 pulse 79 > > standing 101/77 90 > > > > When I was waiting for my temperature to go down after my last > > thyroid > > spell I had just started the HC and my B/P was around 122/80 but > > that's when my temp. was high. Now that my temp. is fairly normal > > my > > B/P is back to being low and the HC and Florinef doesn't seem to be > > affecting it as I'm usually around 100-110. > > > > Any advice would be great. Sorry for so many questions. It's been > > awhile since I talked to you and want your opinion on my dosing. > > > > Hope you're doing well. I miss STTM! > > > > Cheryl > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 30, 2007 Report Share Posted September 30, 2007 Hi , The cortisol that is in Isocort is the same cortisol that is in HC, so it wasn't really that Isocort takes a few months to give it a fair chance, it's just that taking cortisol is going to take some time to work, period. I was REALLY sick when I started Isocort and also had been on thyroid meds, which I was not oonverting and making me sicker. So if I'd started right off on HC, I think it would have still taken me that long to feel better as it took a while for me to figure out I had to stop ALL thyroid meds initally and give the adrenals some time to come back online. And believe me, the difference was night and day, although getting better sometimes creeps up on you, too. When I said the HC took 2 weeks to work, I really mean the dosage difference took about 2 weeks to be noticeable. I went from 8 pellets Isocort to 20 mg HC. I do NOT think Isocort is 20 mg cortisol. It feels more like when I'm on 10 mg HC. So it took me about 2 weeks to notice the difference between 10 and 20 mg cortisol, effectively. Jeffries says it takes about 10 days to get a new stable level of cortisol in your system and that it does take a good few weeks to notice improvement and to wait it out. He criticizes the use of pharmacological doses in conditions like arthritis saying that the docs don't give the lower doses long enough to kick in. So I really think it's important to give the lower doses a try, graph your temps, etc., so you don't overshoot your sweet spot. I've gone up too high and it's hell going back down and you DON'T want to go there if the lower dose is going to work with you. I SO understand the need to want to get better NOW! Believe me. But I've only caused myself grief doing that. I think you are getting somewhere, you just have to be patient. Yes, the headaches suck, but I do recommend waiting out a good 2 -3 weeks at least on Isocort before tossing the towel in on it. I couldn't handle anything more than 3 mcg t3 on Isocort even after 1 and 1/2 years,so that's why I switched to Cortef. But I think you may in fact be able to handle your Armour if you give it a chance, as you're on 1/2 grain right now, so you seem better off than I was in that regard. I vote to wait it out a bit more on Isocort. You've only been on it a short while. Part of the reason you might feel more hypo is because the cortisol actually help utilize the thyoid hormones, so you feel like you have less. That's what happened when I started Isocort and that's what gave me headaches. BUT after a while, it really improved my t4 to t3 conversion, so my thryoid status actually improved. Kathleen > > I can attest to this as I have suffered the effects of trying to > increase A from 1 grain to 1 1/2, twice now - once without Iso and > again this weekend after being on 20mg of Iso for a week and it wasn't > pretty. I cut my A back to 1/2 grain total today and felt a little > better, but had the hypo headache for half of the day and was back to > falling asleep in the middle of the day after lunch. I guess my > question, especially for Kathleen as you went through this, is whether > Iso is likely to work well enough to wait, or just go straight to > Cortef, assuming that I can get a doc to prescribe it, or that I get > over my reluctance to obtain it without a prescription. I recall you > writing that it took months to feel better on Iso, and then a couple > of weeks to feel better on Cortef. I don't know that my adrenals are > in as bad a shape as yours were, but I know how bad I felt trying to > increase the Armour while taking the Iso and if it is never likely to > help enough, that helps me make my decision about Cortef. Meanwhile > the hypo symptoms are no ball of laughs either. > > Thanks, > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 30, 2007 Report Share Posted September 30, 2007 I understand the need to get optimal on Cortef first, but it may be impossible to get optimal on Armour if you have an rt3 problem. And it will also make it hard to figure out how much Cortef you really need. That is what happened with me as the rt3 caused so much adrenal stress. Dr. Rind has an interesting approach. He says he rarely tests for rt3 anymore because he found tha virtually everyone who has mid or high range t4 and significantly lower t3 has a reverse t3 problem. This makes sense because the t4 has to be going somewhere! If not to ft3, then to rt3. This ended up being true for me. My labs always showed optimal t4 and bottom of the barrel t3. So getting your frees tested could save you a lot of grief in tying to get up on Armour when it may only you make you sicker. I got into a lot of trouble when I got up to 2 grains Armour due to all the rt3 and adrenal stress. You probably know that hyper symptoms when you're hypo is usally due to adrenal issues, but you're working on that. When you say you have CFS, I really suspect rt3. Have you been to www.drlowe.com? He doesn't talk much about rt3, but apparently many CFS patients are thyroid resistant and only do well on t3 therapy/Cytomel. Don't asume a setback on Armour is because you need more HC. It could be due to rt3 problems and an inability to convert t4, which makes you feel toxic and sick. I got into trouble because I suffered terrible low cortisol problems after getting onto 2 grains Armour. Then I got stuck on much more HC than I probably need if I'd just been on t3 only in the first place. So I practically have to start all over BESIDES getting down on the HC. So at least I can share this experience with others and hopefully it will do some good! I'm not saying you don't need more HC, just that maybe you need it because Armour is not for you, you know? If I had to do it again, I would have tried t3 first before just raising the HC to try to tolerate Armour. It is all trial and error, as you say, but the good part is you can learn from someone else's trial and errors! I used to get that dizzy. Drove me nuts. And you may very well need more Cortef, but I wouldn't go up to something like 35 just to see if maybe you can tolerate Armour without checking first if your t4 and t3 meet the criteria for a possible rt3 problem and then trying plain t3 first. Especially with you having CFS, I really agree with Val on this one. Kathleen > > > > Hello! > > > > I'm sure Val will be along to answer any issues I cannot help you > > with. > > > > I understand this hypo headache -- I get those, too! > > > > Have you had your reverse t3 checked? I am wondering if this is a > > possible source of your high temps? > > > > When you say " thyroid spell " , do you just mean the headaches or do > > you mean you feel like you're going hyper? > > > > If you're not tolerating Armour, even on Isocort, I have a few > > suggestions. The first is to stay on Isocort a bit longer before > > trying to ramp up on Armour. It can take a few months for the > adrenal > > support to really help and increasing Armour during that time > period > > is not good. I understand you are feeling hypo, but please take my > > word for it, from plenty of bad experiences, that increasing > thyroid > > when your adrenals are not ready will not make you feel better, > > either. > > > > The second is to check for rt3. You may feel poorly when you get > up > > to a decent Armour dose because of rt3 and conversion problems. > This > > only stresses your adrenals further and so causes a double whammy > of > > bad symptoms. > > > > Third is to are your temps -- are they fluctuating by .2 or less > > every day? That will show whether your adrenals are still weak. > > > > I would do all of those before increasing the Isocort. > > > > If you're taking more Armour than your body (adrenals) can handle > > right now, it's very possible you are going low on cortisol and > > getting hypogycemic. That's why I stress to not raise the Armour > > right now, give the Isocort some more time, and check the rt3. > Plus > > do temp graph to see if it's the adrenals needing more time to > heal > > before taking thyroid meds or increasing them. > > > > I'm not sure if you will crave less salt on Florinef or not. I had > > low aldosterone and never craved the salt -- but I was dizzy, so I > > needed the salt anyway. Are you still dizzy when you stand up? Are > > your ankles swelling (which would be too much Florinef.) It's okay > to > > eat salt while on Florinef! If your body needs it (and your BP is > > dropping when you stand up, so you may very well need all that > salt), > > then go ahead and eat it. After a few more weeks on Isocort, that > may > > help the BP as well. How long have you been on Florinef? Sometimes > it > > takes a bit for the sodium issue to balance out, but it's not > unheard > > of to need more. If your ankles start to swell, though, I would > say > > you're taking too much. > > > > Kathleen > > > > . So I backed off my thyroid meds. > > > and was hoping to get down to 98.6 and start my meds. again but I > > > can > > > never seem to get there before getting a migraine which means I > am > > > then hypo. So even if I'm 99. something I have to take a 1/4grain > > > of > > > thyroid med. to get rid of the migraine. I then keep waiting for > my > > > temp to go down to 98.6-98.8 (and symptoms subside) or so before > > > adding more thyroid meds. Have you heard of others experiencing > > > hypothyroidism with high temps? I have to start my thyroid meds. > > > before normal temps. as the migraines get so bad. Guess this > shows > > > how bad my metabolism is. > > > > > > At this time while my temp. was being lowered I started some HC. > I > > > started with 10mg a day and now have been taking 20mg for a > couple > > > weeks 10,5,2.5,2.5. At first I got thyroid dump but now I'm OK. > > > I'm > > > hoping taking the HC will prevent these thyroid spells I usually > > > get. > > > I think I need to work up to 2 grains of thyroid meds. and get my > > > TSH > > > tested but I can never get to 2 grains for very long before I > have a > > > thyroid spell. I've been at about 2 grains for a week so we'll > see > > > what happens. (As mentioned above I restarted at 1/4 grain to > ease > > > migraines and have been increasing it every 5-7 days or so). If I > > > have another thyroid spell would you say I need to increase my HC > > > and > > > if so how much? > > > > > > I also have been slowly increasing some Florinef since I crave > salt > > > terribly. > > > Even though I'm taking .1 of Florinef a day I still crave the > same > > > amount of salt (LOTS). What does this mean? I thought the > Florinef > > > would help alot? > > > > > > I am going through a bad spell of hypoglycemia. Usually a meal > can > > > hold me 2-3 hours even if I feel slightly hungry but the past few > > > days > > > I feel hungry non stop. Nothing holds me even if I eat alot of > > > protein. Can an increase in thyroid > > > meds. make it worse? I do have Candida but it's fairly under > > > control. I did a search for leaky gut syndrome which I have as my > > > candida is systemic and the internet said sometimes you can feel > > > hungry alot if you have low stomach acid so I got some HCL > because > > > for > > > my blood type we are known to have low levels of HCL. (If you > > > believe > > > in that stuff). If you don't have enough HCL the protein you > > > consume > > > isn't being properly digested. So anyway, I bought some and my > > > hypoglycemia is alittle better. Do you think if I increased the > HC > > > it > > > would help the hypoglycemia? > > > > > > These are some of my stats since taking 20mg HC and .1 Florinef. > > > Average temperature taken 3 times a day over 3 days...37.1 > (98.8). > > > (Sometimes taken 5 hours apart....) > > > > > > My B/P: > > > sitting 106/71 pulse 88 > > > laying down 103/66 pulse 70 > > > standing (got dizzy) 119/82 pulse 98 (# is higher when it should > be > > > lower to show adrenal weakness? Often my # is higher than lower.) > > > > > > I went online to make sure the # should be lower to show adrenal > > > weakness and one site said to do it from sitting to standing. > This > > > time the number was lower. > > > sitting 111/72 pulse 79 > > > standing 101/77 90 > > > > > > When I was waiting for my temperature to go down after my last > > > thyroid > > > spell I had just started the HC and my B/P was around 122/80 but > > > that's when my temp. was high. Now that my temp. is fairly normal > > > my > > > B/P is back to being low and the HC and Florinef doesn't seem to > be > > > affecting it as I'm usually around 100-110. > > > > > > Any advice would be great. Sorry for so many questions. It's been > > > awhile since I talked to you and want your opinion on my dosing. > > > > > > Hope you're doing well. I miss STTM! > > > > > > Cheryl > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 1, 2007 Report Share Posted October 1, 2007 What's the fix for high rt3 then?? Neil _____ From: NaturalThyroidHormonesADRENALS [mailto:NaturalThyroidHormonesADRENALS ] On Behalf Of keickholt13 Sent: Sunday, September 30, 2007 10:57 PM To: NaturalThyroidHormonesADRENALS Subject: Re: Hypoglycemia I understand the need to get optimal on Cortef first, but it may be impossible to get optimal on Armour if you have an rt3 problem. And it will also make it hard to figure out how much Cortef you really need. That is what happened with me as the rt3 caused so much adrenal stress. Dr. Rind has an interesting approach. He says he rarely tests for rt3 anymore because he found tha virtually everyone who has mid or high range t4 and significantly lower t3 has a reverse t3 problem. This makes sense because the t4 has to be going somewhere! If not to ft3, then to rt3. This ended up being true for me. My labs always showed optimal t4 and bottom of the barrel t3. So getting your frees tested could save you a lot of grief in tying to get up on Armour when it may only you make you sicker. I got into a lot of trouble when I got up to 2 grains Armour due to all the rt3 and adrenal stress. You probably know that hyper symptoms when you're hypo is usally due to adrenal issues, but you're working on that. When you say you have CFS, I really suspect rt3. Have you been to www.drlowe.com? He doesn't talk much about rt3, but apparently many CFS patients are thyroid resistant and only do well on t3 therapy/Cytomel. Don't asume a setback on Armour is because you need more HC. It could be due to rt3 problems and an inability to convert t4, which makes you feel toxic and sick. I got into trouble because I suffered terrible low cortisol problems after getting onto 2 grains Armour. Then I got stuck on much more HC than I probably need if I'd just been on t3 only in the first place. So I practically have to start all over BESIDES getting down on the HC. So at least I can share this experience with others and hopefully it will do some good! I'm not saying you don't need more HC, just that maybe you need it because Armour is not for you, you know? If I had to do it again, I would have tried t3 first before just raising the HC to try to tolerate Armour. It is all trial and error, as you say, but the good part is you can learn from someone else's trial and errors! I used to get that dizzy. Drove me nuts. And you may very well need more Cortef, but I wouldn't go up to something like 35 just to see if maybe you can tolerate Armour without checking first if your t4 and t3 meet the criteria for a possible rt3 problem and then trying plain t3 first. Especially with you having CFS, I really agree with Val on this one. Kathleen > > > > Hello! > > > > I'm sure Val will be along to answer any issues I cannot help you > > with. > > > > I understand this hypo headache -- I get those, too! > > > > Have you had your reverse t3 checked? I am wondering if this is a > > possible source of your high temps? > > > > When you say " thyroid spell " , do you just mean the headaches or do > > you mean you feel like you're going hyper? > > > > If you're not tolerating Armour, even on Isocort, I have a few > > suggestions. The first is to stay on Isocort a bit longer before > > trying to ramp up on Armour. It can take a few months for the > adrenal > > support to really help and increasing Armour during that time > period > > is not good. I understand you are feeling hypo, but please take my > > word for it, from plenty of bad experiences, that increasing > thyroid > > when your adrenals are not ready will not make you feel better, > > either. > > > > The second is to check for rt3. You may feel poorly when you get > up > > to a decent Armour dose because of rt3 and conversion problems. > This > > only stresses your adrenals further and so causes a double whammy > of > > bad symptoms. > > > > Third is to are your temps -- are they fluctuating by .2 or less > > every day? That will show whether your adrenals are still weak. > > > > I would do all of those before increasing the Isocort. > > > > If you're taking more Armour than your body (adrenals) can handle > > right now, it's very possible you are going low on cortisol and > > getting hypogycemic. That's why I stress to not raise the Armour > > right now, give the Isocort some more time, and check the rt3. > Plus > > do temp graph to see if it's the adrenals needing more time to > heal > > before taking thyroid meds or increasing them. > > > > I'm not sure if you will crave less salt on Florinef or not. I had > > low aldosterone and never craved the salt -- but I was dizzy, so I > > needed the salt anyway. Are you still dizzy when you stand up? Are > > your ankles swelling (which would be too much Florinef.) It's okay > to > > eat salt while on Florinef! If your body needs it (and your BP is > > dropping when you stand up, so you may very well need all that > salt), > > then go ahead and eat it. After a few more weeks on Isocort, that > may > > help the BP as well. How long have you been on Florinef? Sometimes > it > > takes a bit for the sodium issue to balance out, but it's not > unheard > > of to need more. If your ankles start to swell, though, I would > say > > you're taking too much. > > > > Kathleen > > > > . So I backed off my thyroid meds. > > > and was hoping to get down to 98.6 and start my meds. again but I > > > can > > > never seem to get there before getting a migraine which means I > am > > > then hypo. So even if I'm 99. something I have to take a 1/4grain > > > of > > > thyroid med. to get rid of the migraine. I then keep waiting for > my > > > temp to go down to 98.6-98.8 (and symptoms subside) or so before > > > adding more thyroid meds. Have you heard of others experiencing > > > hypothyroidism with high temps? I have to start my thyroid meds. > > > before normal temps. as the migraines get so bad. Guess this > shows > > > how bad my metabolism is. > > > > > > At this time while my temp. was being lowered I started some HC. > I > > > started with 10mg a day and now have been taking 20mg for a > couple > > > weeks 10,5,2.5,2.5. At first I got thyroid dump but now I'm OK. > > > I'm > > > hoping taking the HC will prevent these thyroid spells I usually > > > get. > > > I think I need to work up to 2 grains of thyroid meds. and get my > > > TSH > > > tested but I can never get to 2 grains for very long before I > have a > > > thyroid spell. I've been at about 2 grains for a week so we'll > see > > > what happens. (As mentioned above I restarted at 1/4 grain to > ease > > > migraines and have been increasing it every 5-7 days or so). If I > > > have another thyroid spell would you say I need to increase my HC > > > and > > > if so how much? > > > > > > I also have been slowly increasing some Florinef since I crave > salt > > > terribly. > > > Even though I'm taking .1 of Florinef a day I still crave the > same > > > amount of salt (LOTS). What does this mean? I thought the > Florinef > > > would help alot? > > > > > > I am going through a bad spell of hypoglycemia. Usually a meal > can > > > hold me 2-3 hours even if I feel slightly hungry but the past few > > > days > > > I feel hungry non stop. Nothing holds me even if I eat alot of > > > protein. Can an increase in thyroid > > > meds. make it worse? I do have Candida but it's fairly under > > > control. I did a search for leaky gut syndrome which I have as my > > > candida is systemic and the internet said sometimes you can feel > > > hungry alot if you have low stomach acid so I got some HCL > because > > > for > > > my blood type we are known to have low levels of HCL. (If you > > > believe > > > in that stuff). If you don't have enough HCL the protein you > > > consume > > > isn't being properly digested. So anyway, I bought some and my > > > hypoglycemia is alittle better. Do you think if I increased the > HC > > > it > > > would help the hypoglycemia? > > > > > > These are some of my stats since taking 20mg HC and .1 Florinef. > > > Average temperature taken 3 times a day over 3 days...37.1 > (98.8). > > > (Sometimes taken 5 hours apart....) > > > > > > My B/P: > > > sitting 106/71 pulse 88 > > > laying down 103/66 pulse 70 > > > standing (got dizzy) 119/82 pulse 98 (# is higher when it should > be > > > lower to show adrenal weakness? Often my # is higher than lower.) > > > > > > I went online to make sure the # should be lower to show adrenal > > > weakness and one site said to do it from sitting to standing. > This > > > time the number was lower. > > > sitting 111/72 pulse 79 > > > standing 101/77 90 > > > > > > When I was waiting for my temperature to go down after my last > > > thyroid > > > spell I had just started the HC and my B/P was around 122/80 but > > > that's when my temp. was high. Now that my temp. is fairly normal > > > my > > > B/P is back to being low and the HC and Florinef doesn't seem to > be > > > affecting it as I'm usually around 100-110. > > > > > > Any advice would be great. Sorry for so many questions. It's been > > > awhile since I talked to you and want your opinion on my dosing. > > > > > > Hope you're doing well. I miss STTM! > > > > > > Cheryl > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 1, 2007 Report Share Posted October 1, 2007 Hi Kathleen, I hear everything you're trying to say and I don't really want to increase HC as I've heard how hard it is to get off or cut back on. But being this hypoglycemic is driving me crazy. Protein isn't helping much. Trying T3 (Cytomel) is my goal. And because Canada doesn't test for RT3 I was figuring too if my T4 was high and T3 was low that would show a problem so glad to hear what I was thinking was right. But my problem is don't I need to get myself on a certain dose of thyroid med. for 4 weeks or so that gets me within TSH range (even if test is flawed) so I have some sort of baseline to go off of? If I took the test now I know I'm too hypo. I just randomly did a temp. tonight and I was just about 36.5 (97.6 for you Americans!) My temps. are flunctuating too. If I have an RT3 problem will I not get near TSH range? So it doesn't make sense to do a FT3/FT4 right? It would show me more if I was in TSH range first than being off the charts hypo. After my last thyroid spell about 4 weeks ago I've been gradually increasing my thyroid med. from 1/4 grain to 2 grains starting last week. So my med. is increasing but tonight was one of my lowest temps. Weird. I am alittle tired from this weekend though so maybe that has factored in (adrenals). Will see what temps are tomorrow. I've heard that being hypothyroid can make you hypoglycemic too. I guess all hormones affect each other. This is my thyroid results from May (see how hypo I was. It really affected the FT4/FT3. I was only taking 1/2 my meds. because I would go through these thyroid spells I've explained to you about. May: TSH 170 (26-85 nlU/ml Normal (or Borderline High: 86-120 nIU/ml) (Mine is High because I can only take 1/2 my meds because of adrenal problems). FT4 .26 (.17-.42ng/dl) Normal Ft3 .35 (0.28-1.10 pg/ml) Normal (or Borderline Low: 0.21-0.27 pg/ml) TPO negative I guess I should add some Sea salt along with the Florinef? Thanks, Cheryl P.S. I've been sick with CFS/FM for 23 years. Since I was 15. No doctor has ever targeted my thyroid or adrenal problems until I started pushing it. No one tested me properly for adrenal insuffiency through saliva testing. (I passed ACTH cortisol test, DHEA and cortisol blood test so for years I thought I didn't have this problem until I got my computer in 1999 and started doing the research and hearing from other patients. Library material was outdated so internet was great. Saliva tests proved I had adrenal problems. Have tried herbs and glandulars and didn't help me so trying HC for the first time. Also all doctors cared about all these years was my TSH was in range. GRRRRRR!!!!! Because of all these problems I've dealt with chronic systemic candida. That is a monster I'm still battling. > > > > > > Hello! > > > > > > I'm sure Val will be along to answer any issues I cannot help you > > > with. > > > > > > I understand this hypo headache -- I get those, too! > > > > > > Have you had your reverse t3 checked? I am wondering if this is a > > > possible source of your high temps? > > > > > > When you say " thyroid spell " , do you just mean the headaches or > do > > > you mean you feel like you're going hyper? > > > > > > If you're not tolerating Armour, even on Isocort, I have a few > > > suggestions. The first is to stay on Isocort a bit longer before > > > trying to ramp up on Armour. It can take a few months for the > > adrenal > > > support to really help and increasing Armour during that time > > period > > > is not good. I understand you are feeling hypo, but please take > my > > > word for it, from plenty of bad experiences, that increasing > > thyroid > > > when your adrenals are not ready will not make you feel better, > > > either. > > > > > > The second is to check for rt3. You may feel poorly when you get > > up > > > to a decent Armour dose because of rt3 and conversion problems. > > This > > > only stresses your adrenals further and so causes a double whammy > > of > > > bad symptoms. > > > > > > Third is to are your temps -- are they fluctuating by .2 or less > > > every day? That will show whether your adrenals are still weak. > > > > > > I would do all of those before increasing the Isocort. > > > > > > If you're taking more Armour than your body (adrenals) can handle > > > right now, it's very possible you are going low on cortisol and > > > getting hypogycemic. That's why I stress to not raise the Armour > > > right now, give the Isocort some more time, and check the rt3. > > Plus > > > do temp graph to see if it's the adrenals needing more time to > > heal > > > before taking thyroid meds or increasing them. > > > > > > I'm not sure if you will crave less salt on Florinef or not. I > had > > > low aldosterone and never craved the salt -- but I was dizzy, so > I > > > needed the salt anyway. Are you still dizzy when you stand up? > Are > > > your ankles swelling (which would be too much Florinef.) It's > okay > > to > > > eat salt while on Florinef! If your body needs it (and your BP is > > > dropping when you stand up, so you may very well need all that > > salt), > > > then go ahead and eat it. After a few more weeks on Isocort, that > > may > > > help the BP as well. How long have you been on Florinef? > Sometimes > > it > > > takes a bit for the sodium issue to balance out, but it's not > > unheard > > > of to need more. If your ankles start to swell, though, I would > > say > > > you're taking too much. > > > > > > Kathleen > > > > > > . So I backed off my thyroid meds. > > > > and was hoping to get down to 98.6 and start my meds. again but > I > > > > can > > > > never seem to get there before getting a migraine which means I > > am > > > > then hypo. So even if I'm 99. something I have to take a > 1/4grain > > > > of > > > > thyroid med. to get rid of the migraine. I then keep waiting > for > > my > > > > temp to go down to 98.6-98.8 (and symptoms subside) or so before > > > > adding more thyroid meds. Have you heard of others experiencing > > > > hypothyroidism with high temps? I have to start my thyroid meds. > > > > before normal temps. as the migraines get so bad. Guess this > > shows > > > > how bad my metabolism is. > > > > > > > > At this time while my temp. was being lowered I started some > HC. > > I > > > > started with 10mg a day and now have been taking 20mg for a > > couple > > > > weeks 10,5,2.5,2.5. At first I got thyroid dump but now I'm OK. > > > > I'm > > > > hoping taking the HC will prevent these thyroid spells I usually > > > > get. > > > > I think I need to work up to 2 grains of thyroid meds. and get > my > > > > TSH > > > > tested but I can never get to 2 grains for very long before I > > have a > > > > thyroid spell. I've been at about 2 grains for a week so we'll > > see > > > > what happens. (As mentioned above I restarted at 1/4 grain to > > ease > > > > migraines and have been increasing it every 5-7 days or so). If > I > > > > have another thyroid spell would you say I need to increase my > HC > > > > and > > > > if so how much? > > > > > > > > I also have been slowly increasing some Florinef since I crave > > salt > > > > terribly. > > > > Even though I'm taking .1 of Florinef a day I still crave the > > same > > > > amount of salt (LOTS). What does this mean? I thought the > > Florinef > > > > would help alot? > > > > > > > > I am going through a bad spell of hypoglycemia. Usually a meal > > can > > > > hold me 2-3 hours even if I feel slightly hungry but the past > few > > > > days > > > > I feel hungry non stop. Nothing holds me even if I eat alot of > > > > protein. Can an increase in thyroid > > > > meds. make it worse? I do have Candida but it's fairly under > > > > control. I did a search for leaky gut syndrome which I have as > my > > > > candida is systemic and the internet said sometimes you can feel > > > > hungry alot if you have low stomach acid so I got some HCL > > because > > > > for > > > > my blood type we are known to have low levels of HCL. (If you > > > > believe > > > > in that stuff). If you don't have enough HCL the protein you > > > > consume > > > > isn't being properly digested. So anyway, I bought some and my > > > > hypoglycemia is alittle better. Do you think if I increased the > > HC > > > > it > > > > would help the hypoglycemia? > > > > > > > > These are some of my stats since taking 20mg HC and .1 Florinef. > > > > Average temperature taken 3 times a day over 3 days...37.1 > > (98.8). > > > > (Sometimes taken 5 hours apart....) > > > > > > > > My B/P: > > > > sitting 106/71 pulse 88 > > > > laying down 103/66 pulse 70 > > > > standing (got dizzy) 119/82 pulse 98 (# is higher when it > should > > be > > > > lower to show adrenal weakness? Often my # is higher than > lower.) > > > > > > > > I went online to make sure the # should be lower to show adrenal > > > > weakness and one site said to do it from sitting to standing. > > This > > > > time the number was lower. > > > > sitting 111/72 pulse 79 > > > > standing 101/77 90 > > > > > > > > When I was waiting for my temperature to go down after my last > > > > thyroid > > > > spell I had just started the HC and my B/P was around 122/80 but > > > > that's when my temp. was high. Now that my temp. is fairly > normal > > > > my > > > > B/P is back to being low and the HC and Florinef doesn't seem > to > > be > > > > affecting it as I'm usually around 100-110. > > > > > > > > Any advice would be great. Sorry for so many questions. It's > been > > > > awhile since I talked to you and want your opinion on my dosing. > > > > > > > > Hope you're doing well. I miss STTM! > > > > > > > > Cheryl > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 1, 2007 Report Share Posted October 1, 2007 >>What's the fix for high rt3 then??<< Going in all T3 therapy and high enough and long enough to clear out the RT3 from the receptors. Usually it would take about 3 months if you have no problems raising the T3 to a thyroid supresive dose. -- Artistic Grooming- Hurricane WV http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/ http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/NaturalThyroidHormonesADRENALS/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 1, 2007 Report Share Posted October 1, 2007 >>But my problem is don't I need to get myself on a certain dose of thyroid med. for 4 weeks or so that gets me within TSH range (even if test is flawed) so I have some sort of baseline to go off of?<< Absolutely not The more T4 you pump into your body when you have high RT3, the worse the problems and the adrenal stress becomes. -- Artistic Grooming- Hurricane WV http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/ http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/NaturalThyroidHormonesADRENALS/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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