Re: Toxic manganese levels

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

Thanks for the explanations regarding zinc. I was looking for something more

current. With recent findings of neuroendocrine cell metabolism, particulary

in the gastrointestinal tract, magnesium and selenium are consided more

critical, as are certain carbohydrates. While zinc plays a role in normal

growth and metabolism, it's zinc excess that causes more of a problem because

of the critical 8:1 balance needed between zinc and copper. In dialysis, as

in comas or surgery, thyroid hormone normally declines which is why thyroid

function tests can't be used on hospitalized patients. Take care, Elaine

[Guest guest]

> Question on this...when I have a sore throat or a cold coming on, I

> literally suck zinc lozenges for days to keep the cold from

grabbing

> hold...how will this affect my thyroid meds...how could it have

affected my

> T4-T3 conversion when I was on only a T4 med?

>

It's difficult […I mean difficult for me … ] to reply to this

question. A number of medical texts link sore throats, colds and flu

with hypothyroidism. So I wonder if you could have been sub-

clinically hypo in those days. If so, some zinc would help both with

cold and with subclinical hypo. (Dr Arem suggests 15-20 milligrams as

maximum daily supplementary intake of Zinc).

However, as I said in an earlier post, this is a very complicate

subject. Exercise has been shown to alter Zinc status. And so do

other factors.

Everything we do –even breathing- has a word to say in our body

chemistry. So best of all is balance. This is the key: balance. Whole

organic balanced diet, rest and relaxation, and some aerobic

exercise, according to personal needs and condition. This is the way

to go.

<<<If one is not converting T4 to T3 very well, would zinc lozenges

help with that conversion?>>>

It seems it does. There are quite a number of papers showing that.

Even supplementing with zinc children affected with Down Syndrome,

which are usually hypothyroid too, corrected their underactive

thyroids. The low zinc levels in these children have not to do with a

poor diet, but rather with a poor intestinal absortion.

Yet another work with children affected with Down syndrome showed " a

high occurrence rate of complex immune and endocrine disorders with

thyroid dysregulation, with zinc deficiency playing a considerable

role. "

Also, people with renal failure have multiple alterations of thyroid

hormone metabolism, in the absence of thyroid disease. Dialysis

therapy minimally affects thyroid hormone metabolism, while zinc and

erythropoietin administration may partially reverse thyroid hormone

abnormalities. Thyroid hormone metabolism normalizes with renal

transplantation; however.

Etc.

Thirty years ago the only element which was thought to be connected

to thyroid function was iodine. However investigations in molecular

biochemistry during the last three decades proved that several other

elements are involved and all them having complex inter-relations.

I'm fond to read on this subject, which is fascinating. And it's my

intuition that some clues will come from this area, rather from the

immune field, or from genetics. Currently genetics investigators are

very happy with their new toy, the genome, and use to forget that we

are the result of the interaction of genes and environment. If only

genes would be involved we could be still painting deers and in the

caverns.

When I approach this rich-subtle-sophisticated-highly complex world

of our big laboratory, that our body is, … I get really " atomic " at

some doctors )

But… you understand me, don't you?

All the best,

A.

[Guest guest]

Yes , I do understand you very well It was several months in this

group before I even knew you were interpreting

You make my mind whirl with the information and raise new questions. I know

I won't have time now to remember them all this morning as my 4 1/2 year old

grandson is coming for a sleepover in half hour

I never used the zinc until about 3 years ago...and I was hypo, not sure if

I was subclincally hypo or not as I still don't grasp the difference, even

though I try. My labs would come back in the normal range (TSH 2.

something) and T3 T4 in normal ranges so was told I was *fine...even though

I exhibited all the classic hypo symptoms. It has only been since last

year, after I started learning so much here and finding my new endo that

things have changed some.

One would think that with thyroid hormone so involved in every function of

our bodies that it would be a researchers dream project to attempt to find

all of the connections.

I need to run for now, but will write more to you later. And thanks tons for

answering my questions.

*HUGZ*

Jody

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[Guest guest]

> Hi ,

> I'm having trouble finding a source that says zinc converts T4 to

T3 in the

> liver. I've got lots of info on the necessity of selenium since the

> deiodinase enzyme which converts T4 to T3 contains selenium, but I

haven't

> found anything on zinc. If you have any references I'd appreciate

them.

Hi Elaine,

Zinc can be found in the liver and everywhere else in the body, since

zinc is one of the components of red cells, the simplest cell in the

body. Numerous substances are necessary for creation of erythrocytes,

including metals (iron, cobalt, manganese), vitamins (B12, B6, C, E,

folate, riboflavin, pantothenic acid, thiamin), and amino acids.

Regulatory substances necessary for normal erythropoiesis include

erythropoietin, thyroid hormones, and androgens.

Yet more: it plays several roles in cellular activity. A work

published 1999 by the Istituto Nazionale della Nutrizione, Rome,

says: " Zinc has a wide spectrum of biological activities and its

deficiency has been related to various tissue dysfunctions and

alterations of normal cell metabolism. Zinc also plays an important

role in the antioxidant cellular defenses being a structural element

of the non-mitochondrial form of the enzyme superoxide dismutase

(CuZnSOD). We have already reported that Zn deficiency induces severe

alterations in the rat intestine, that are reverted by treatment with

dexamethasone (Dex) or thyroxine (T4). "

In a paper published 1999 Volpe states: " During the last 3 decades,

remarkable advances have taken place in the field of zinc metabolism.

Thirty years ago, only three enzymes that required zinc for their

activities were identified; today more than 200 such enzymes have

been classified. Zinc plays a vital role in human nutrition and

biochemical function. Prior to 1963, zinc deficiency in humans was

unknown. Today, it is recognized that a nutritional deficiency of

zinc is common throughout the world, including the U.S.A (…)

Back in the 1980's researchers started to suspect that zinc could be

one of the factors in T4 to T3 conversion in the liver (see 1, and 2

below).

In a work dated 1993 Freake states: " Until recently, the sole link

between thyroid hormones and trace minerals was iodide. Then the

thyroid hormone receptor was cloned and analysis of the protein

coding sequence showed it to be a member of a large family of gene

activating receptor proteins. These all possess a region containing

two clusters of cysteine residues, thought to chelate zinc, which is

required for binding of the receptors to their target genes. Zinc

appears to be necessary for the biological functioning of not only

the thyroid hormone receptor but also many other nuclear proteins

which regulate gene expression "

And continues " The principal product of the thyroid gland is

thyroxine from which the more active form of the hormone,

triiodothyronine, is derived by peripheral monodeiodination. One of

the two enzymes responsible, type I 5'-iodothyronine deiodinase, was

recently cloned and shown to contain selenocysteine. Thus production

of the active thyroid hormone is dependent on selenium status " .

Also, the structure of nuclear thyroid hormone receptors contains

Zinc (Zn) ions, crucial for the functional properties of the protein.

A very recent German study (see 3 below) establishes that both

selenium and zinc deficiencies affect the metabolism of thyroid

hormones, specially zinc deficiency: " The activity of hepatic type I

5'deiodinase was decreased by 67% by zinc deficiency and by 47% by

selenium deficiency compared to adequate controls " .

I have an array of papers and files, showing more interesting things

about Zn, but I regret –as I have told you- that I'm very busy

lately, and can scarcely catch up with posts. I just have parked

my " business " aside to choose some files for you. But if this is not

urgent, I may came back to it in the next weeks, and send you more

data.

In my previous post I was relying (if memory served me well) on Dr.

Biamonte teachings, distinguished American for his research in

nutrition, and doctorated of Nutripathy, and so on and on.

I had pasted one article of his, just a few days after this group

started, I think it can be reached around September 99.

Take care.

(1)

J Clin Chem Clin Biochem 1982 May;20(5):281-5

The effect of thyroxine, the antithyroid drug propylthiouracil and

thyroidectomy on mineral metabolism in rat tissues.

Al-Khayat TM, Al-Darweesh TM, Islam MS

The administration of thyroxine produces a significant increase in

the copper, magnesium, iron and zinc contents of liver, with a

concomitant decrease of heart iron. Magnesium in heart tissues was

also increased. The administration of antithyroid drugs produces a

significant decrease in the concentration of the same metals in the

liver with concomitant increases in kidney copper and calcium, and in

heart magnesium and calcium. Brain magnesium was found to be

significantly decreased after antithyroid treatment and increased to

a lesser extent after thyroxine administration. Thyroidectomy did not

produce an appreciable effect on minerals in various tissues, except

heart zinc which was significantly decreased. These findings suggest

the involvement of thyroid hormones in tissue mineral metabolism,

especially in the liver.

PMID: 7108446

(2)

J Pediatr Gastroenterol Nutr 1986 Sep-Oct;5(5):799-805

Conversion of thyroxine into tri-iodothyronine in zinc deficient rat

liver.

Fujimoto S, Indo Y, Higashi A, Matsuda I, Kashiwabara N, Nakashima I

Hepatic thyroxine (T4) to tri-iodothyronine (T3) conversion was

measured in six animal groups: Group A was fed a severe zinc-

deficient diet (1.98 ppm) for 5 weeks; group B was a pair-fed control

group for group A; group C was fed a less severe zinc-deficient diet

(6.10 ppm) for 5 weeks; group D was a pair-fed control group for

group C; group E was fed a zinc-supplemented control diet (90.4 ppm)

for 5 weeks; and group F was first fed the severe zinc-deficient diet

for 5 weeks and then placed on the zinc-supplemented control diet

until a body weight corresponding to the final weight of group E was

obtained. Serum T3 and T4 levels and T4 to T3 conversion were

significantly reduced in group A. A significant positive correlation

was observed between T4 to T3 conversion and alcohol dehydrogenase

(zinc-metalloenzyme) activity in liver tissue from the six groups.

Thus, it appeared that an appropriate amount of zinc might be one of

the factors in thyroxine to tri-iodothyronine conversion in liver

tissue normally.

PMID: 3761111

(3)

Horm Metab Res 1996 May;28(5):223-6

Influence of zinc and selenium deficiency on parameters relating to

thyroid hormone metabolism.

Kralik A, Eder K, Kirchgessner M

Institute of Nutrition Physiology, Technical University Munich,

Freising-Weihenstephan, Germany.

48 weaned male Sprague-Dawley rats with an initial average body

weight of 41 g were divided into 4 groups of 12 animals (zinc-

deficient; zinc-adequate, pair-fed with zinc-deficient group;

selenium-deficient; selenium-adequate) for 40 days. All groups were

fed a semisynthetic diet with casein being the source of protein. In

the selenium-deficient diet, there was a selenium concentration of

0.038 mg/kg. The other diets were supplemented with Na-selenite in

order to adjust the selenium concentration to 0.3 mg/kg. In the zinc-

deficient diet, there was a zinc concentration of 4.1 mg/kg. The zinc

concentrations in the other diets were adjusted to 45 mg/kg by the

addition of zinc-sulfate heptahydrate. Zinc-deficient rats were

characterized by a markedly reduced alkaline phosphatase activity in

their serum, whilst selenium-deficient rats showed a markedly reduced

glutathione peroxidase in serum proving their respective zinc-

deficient and selenium-deficient states. Zinc deficiency decreased

concentrations of triiodothyronine (T3) and free thyroxine (fT4) in

serum by approximately 30% when compared with zinc-adequate controls.

The concentration of thyroxine (T4) in serum was not affected by zinc

deficiency. Selenium-deficient animals had lower concentrations of T3

and T4 than selenium-adequate animals. The concentration of fT4 in

serum was not affected by selenium deficiency. The activity of

hepatic type I 5'deiodinase was decreased by 67% by zinc deficiency

and by 47% by selenium deficiency compared to adequate controls. The

study data show that both zinc and selenium deficiency affect the

metabolism of thyroid hormones.

PMID: 8738110

[Guest guest]

> Hi ,

> Thanks for the explanations regarding zinc. I was looking for

something more

> current. With recent findings of neuroendocrine cell metabolism,

particulary

> in the gastrointestinal tract, magnesium and selenium are consided

more

> critical, as are certain carbohydrates. While zinc plays a role in

normal

> growth and metabolism, it's zinc excess that causes more of a

problem because

> of the critical 8:1 balance needed between zinc and copper. In

dialysis, as

> in comas or surgery, thyroid hormone normally declines which is why

thyroid

> function tests can't be used on hospitalized patients. Take care,

Elaine

You're wellcome!

This is what you asked for:

<<<I'm having trouble finding a source that says zinc converts T4 to

T3 in the

liver. I've got lots of info on the necessity of selenium since the

deiodinase enzyme which converts T4 to T3 contains selenium, but I

haven't found anything on zinc. If you have any references I'd

appreciate them.>>>

And that is what I sent. And it surprised me you you hadn't found

sources, as subject is nearly 20 years old.

In case you should have previously mentioned neutroendocrine cell

metabolism in the gastrointestinal tract, my choice would be

different for sure.

So... I'm sorry I did not match your needs.

And I'm yet more sorry I spent two hours searching my files and

editing the post.

.

[Guest guest]

,

I do hope you will come back to topic as time permits. I won't pretend to

understand the bulk of what you shared, but will keep this and reread it

again to absorb more.

I do have 2 basic questions for you though.

1-If one is on a T4 supplement only, would they benefit by consuming zinc,

possibly starting out on a minimal dose and increasing slowly to see what

the optimin dose would be to gain the best possible conversion of T4 to T3?

2-In someone with HepC on an experimental treatment benefit from adding zinc

supplements to his diet?

Thanks for answering, even if the answer is not one you are sure of

TTYL,

Jody

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[Guest guest]

> ,

> I do hope you will come back to topic as time permits. I won't

pretend to

> understand the bulk of what you shared, but will keep this and

reread it

> again to absorb more.

>

> I do have 2 basic questions for you though.

>

> 1-If one is on a T4 supplement only, would they benefit by

consuming zinc,

> possibly starting out on a minimal dose and increasing slowly to

see what

> the optimin dose would be to gain the best possible conversion of

T4 to T3?

>

> 2-In someone with HepC on an experimental treatment benefit from

adding zinc

> supplements to his diet?

> Thanks for answering, even if the answer is not one you are sure

of

> TTYL,

> Jody

Dear Jody,

The person who could better reply to this questions is .

It seems to me he is very knowleadgeable in this field, an area where

medical doctors aren't usually trained.

What should I do in case no. l?.

Well, I am not fond of chemical supplements, so if need be, I would

introduce some slight changes in diet. F. i. I would add a spoonful

wheat germ to salads and milk, would have eggs more frequently, or

would I prepare lentils. (I'm a vegetarian), meat could be chosen

instead for non-vegetarians (tho not liver which is high in copper),

oat flakes (very rich in zinc), a handful of peanuts, and such.

[Having a book with tables re composition of foods is necessary].

But if you keep eating whole organic and balanced, you'll probably

have all your needs covered. It's necessary to be aware that an

excess in certan elements can cause more problens that its lack. And

in case of doubt better consult with a nutritionist, so that personal

needs can be matched.

As for question no. 2 I don't have an opinion.

Best regards.

[Guest guest]

Thank you .

Jody

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