Guest guest Posted April 15, 2000 Report Share Posted April 15, 2000 Hi , I can relate. I could never talk about 'outside issues' to another AA'er without them sticking AA reminders in every chance they could. Busy with work, the children, school, home. well, don't miss your meetings. Kid has 104 temperature and I'm worried. Don't sweat the small stuff and it's all small stuff. Gag jan Re: Re:AAs harms > Hi Dave, > > This brings to mind a conversation I had at my final cult > indoctrination meeting. I was sitting outside, chatting with one of > the old-timers talking about getting back in top physical shape so I > could do some climbing in the Himalayas next year. This means a lot > of time in the gym and less time in smoke filled meeting rooms (a > good thing, or so i THOUGHT - oops there went my 'stinking thinkin' > again - damn! > > " First things first, , " so she said. > > Like I said, can I please get a complimentary barf bag? Or are we > all out of them on this particular flight? > > Peace > > > > > > > > > > > I remember a women telling me once that I would not be truly > > > sober until I had been without a drink and in the program for > > > 5 years. WHAT??? I guess that up to that 5 year mark, you're > > > just chopped liver. What a loving program,,,just don't drink > > > and come to meetings and never forget that you will never be > > > well. Cuz' if ya' do, you'll drink and die. This is some > > > real spiritual stuff. > > > And how about " never say no when anyone asks you to do > anything > > > in AA. " WHAT??? > > > AA must come before anything else in your life. Anything. > > > WHAT??? > > > The problem that I had was that I kept trying to make sense > > > out of complete NONSENSE. And it just wouldn't click. It > always > > > felt wrong because it is wrong. > > > > > > Sue > > > > > > ______________________________________________________ > > > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > 10% Off FogDog.com, Disney.com, eCost.com and many more. > You get paid as you shop with the Pointclick network. > http://click./1/3417/1/_/4324/_/955763566/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 18, 2000 Report Share Posted April 18, 2000 Hey Joe, Do you mean youve heard that true AA success is 1.3%, or that insider doctrine is only 1 in a thousand make 10 yrs? P. > > Yes, I've heard this too. It is actually rather mind-boggling, isn't it. > And somehow they can claim this " works " . With odds like that, going to AA > really should be given a govt health warning. Remember the tobacco > companies claimed for years that smoking wasn't harmful- and look, now they > are ending up in court. Things change. > > Joe B. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 19, 2000 Report Share Posted April 19, 2000 Hey Wally The 12 & 12 itself relates this story - all Ken did was shine a spotlight on it. They condemn themselves out of their own printing press. P. Ken Ragge, in " More Revealed, " relates the story of how and his cronies schemed to hold , an early miracle of recovery, captive and dry long enough for to appear on Heatter's radio program and spread the word. This incident demonstrates that et. al were perfectly cognizant of the fact that they were perpetrating a fraud on the public. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 19, 2000 Report Share Posted April 19, 2000 > I heard EXACTLY the same thing when I was there. But then they > started bickering, one old-timer said three years, the other said > five. Then the three year guy agreed with the five year guy. > > Ah, the mentality of the herd. I've heard a year over every Step! P. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 19, 2000 Report Share Posted April 19, 2000 Hi Jan In my experience support for AA is often linked to political conservatism - a Democrat might support it perhaps because of well-meaning ignorance as to its true nature, but many a Repiblican may actually *like it* for its proto-facist nature, imo. P. > > > > << ...even if it were possible to show that there exist some people who > > go to AA and get sober, who would not have gotten sober had they not > > gone to AA or something very much like it, I would still quibble with > > the the notion that this means " AA works " for some people. AA, as it > > describes itself, involves the invocation of supernatural assistance. > > Unless you can conclusively prove that somebody went to AA and was then, > > as a result, zapped sober by the Great Spook, you have no conclusion. > > > > I might, of course, more readily accept some other claim, such as that > > " group support helps. " >> > > > > ------------------------ > > > > Absolutely 100% right on, Wally. I really fail to see how, if > > someone discontinues drinking and concurrently happens to attend AA > > meetings, " work the steps " , etc., that this is " proof " that " working the > > steps " is what got them sober, or that they could not have gotten sober > > without AA. The problem, I think, is that AA literature specifically > > forbids anyone from taking credit for their own sobriety; you must give > > ALL credit to God/HP and to the AA fellowship, and are NEVER to believe > > in your own power. > > > > Now if one of the many people who self-recovered found > > companionship and purpose, etc., in a bird-watching club, and felt less > > lonely/more fulfilled in their (now sober) life, they would hardly be > > likely to say that bird-watching " made " them sober, or that their > > sobriety hinges on regular attendance at bird-watchings! They would > > simply say (if asked at all) that they decided to stop drinking, and > > that they enjoy the ornithology club. > > > > I would really like it if someone would actually do a study, with a > > statistically significant sample, comparing problem drinkers who embark > > on sobriety while attending clubs or groups which have nothing to do > > with substance abuse, to people who attend specifically > > recovery-oriented groups (further broken down into 12-step v. > > non-12-step). That would answer the question of whether companionship > > and purpose are the true aspects of AA which have any benefit, rather > > than the weird meanderings of step-work. > > > > ~Rita > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > > Chocolate eggs, tulips, bunnies and more... > > Click Here > > http://click./1/3120/1/_/4324/_/955731704/ > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 19, 2000 Report Share Posted April 19, 2000 At 05:57 19/04/00 +0000, you wrote: >Hey Joe, >Do you mean youve heard that true AA success is 1.3%, or that insider >doctrine is only 1 in a thousand make 10 yrs? > >P. I know I've heard the former, and I don't think I've heard the latter. Whether the former actually implies the latter or not I don't know- my brain refuses to attempt that one. Pendormo Canguale, seahorse trainer to the Prince of Whales Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 19, 2000 Report Share Posted April 19, 2000 In a message dated 4/19/00 3:44:45 AM Eastern Daylight Time, awatt04@... writes: > In my experience support for AA is often linked to political > conservatism - a Democrat might support it perhaps because of > well-meaning ignorance as to its true nature, but many a Repiblican > may actually *like it* for its proto-facist nature, imo. The reason it is supported by most politicians in Minnesota, from Right Wing Authoritarian, Liberals, Libertarians, and probably Perot's party, the name eludes me at the moment, is because Minnesota is known as the " recovery state. " It of course has Hazelton, which many other rehabs are based on. It also contains quite a few other rehabs, as well as detoxes, aftercare clinics and sober houses. I read somewhere that when after a member completes treatment at Hazelton. and most people who go to Hazelton are prosperous, they are asked to stay in Minnesota, and get a sober job, which means one of very little status, so the member gets a good dose of humility. Man when I got sober the last thing I needed was a humbling job. I felt so bad about myself for so long, that putting on the Mickey D uniform, or cleaning toilets at the city buildings was not something that would have helped my sobriety. But then before I came into AA I wasn't very prosperous and couldn't have afforded Hazelton anyway. M So a politician supporting AA in Minnesota is like a Texan supporting an " oil depletion allowance in the tax code. " M Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 19, 2000 Report Share Posted April 19, 2000 Heard that one too > > I heard EXACTLY the same thing when I was there. But then they > > started bickering, one old-timer said three years, the other said > > five. Then the three year guy agreed with the five year guy. > > > > Ah, the mentality of the herd. > > I've heard a year over every Step! > > P. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 19, 2000 Report Share Posted April 19, 2000 Perhaps in the past, Pete, however, AA has evolved into warm, fuzzy lighter than air, I feel your pain, psychobabble. Most of the members I knew were democrats. ly, the AA I was in shied from organized religion (esp. Christianity), despite what was written in the Big Book. The meetings I attended didn't want to hear about the Biblical God. jan Re: Re:AAs harms > Hi Jan > > In my experience support for AA is often linked to political > conservatism - a Democrat might support it perhaps because of > well-meaning ignorance as to its true nature, but many a Repiblican > may actually *like it* for its proto-facist nature, imo. > > P. > > > > > > > > << ...even if it were possible to show that there exist some > people who > > > go to AA and get sober, who would not have gotten sober had they > not > > > gone to AA or something very much like it, I would still quibble > with > > > the the notion that this means " AA works " for some people. AA, as > it > > > describes itself, involves the invocation of supernatural > assistance. > > > Unless you can conclusively prove that somebody went to AA and > was > then, > > > as a result, zapped sober by the Great Spook, you have no > conclusion. > > > > > > I might, of course, more readily accept some other claim, such as > that > > > " group support helps. " >> > > > > > > ------------------------ > > > > > > Absolutely 100% right on, Wally. I really fail to see how, > if > > > someone discontinues drinking and concurrently happens to attend > AA > > > meetings, " work the steps " , etc., that this is " proof " that > " working the > > > steps " is what got them sober, or that they could not have gotten > sober > > > without AA. The problem, I think, is that AA literature > specifically > > > forbids anyone from taking credit for their own sobriety; you > must > give > > > ALL credit to God/HP and to the AA fellowship, and are NEVER to > believe > > > in your own power. > > > > > > Now if one of the many people who self-recovered found > > > companionship and purpose, etc., in a bird-watching club, and > felt > less > > > lonely/more fulfilled in their (now sober) life, they would > hardly > be > > > likely to say that bird-watching " made " them sober, or that their > > > sobriety hinges on regular attendance at bird-watchings! They > would > > > simply say (if asked at all) that they decided to stop drinking, > and > > > that they enjoy the ornithology club. > > > > > > I would really like it if someone would actually do a study, > with a > > > statistically significant sample, comparing problem drinkers who > embark > > > on sobriety while attending clubs or groups which have nothing to > do > > > with substance abuse, to people who attend specifically > > > recovery-oriented groups (further broken down into 12-step v. > > > non-12-step). That would answer the question of whether > companionship > > > and purpose are the true aspects of AA which have any benefit, > rather > > > than the weird meanderings of step-work. > > > > > > ~Rita > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > > > Chocolate eggs, tulips, bunnies and more... > > > Click Here > > > http://click./1/3120/1/_/4324/_/955731704/ > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Avoid the lines and visit avis.com for quick and easy online > reservations. Enjoy a compact car nationwide for only $29 a day! > Click here for more details. > http://click./1/3011/1/_/4324/_/956130253/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 19, 2000 Report Share Posted April 19, 2000 Say Pete, Believe it or not, even though my student days are long hence, I still read footnotes, so of course I knew that Ken was quoting from " AA Comes of Age, " which I had read many years ago when I was a proud (but often drunk) member of AA. I had forgotten, though, that the story was also in the 12 & 12. Where is it, exactly? -- wally Re: Re:AAs harms >Hey Wally > >The 12 & 12 itself relates this story - all Ken did was shine a >spotlight on it. They condemn themselves out of their own printing >press. > >P. > > > > Ken Ragge, in " More Revealed, " relates the story of how > and his > cronies schemed to hold , an early miracle of >recovery, captive and > dry long enough for to appear on >Heatter's radio program and > spread the word. This incident demonstrates that >et. al were > perfectly cognizant of the fact that they were >perpetrating a fraud on the > public. > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >Avoid the lines and visit avis.com for quick and easy online >reservations. Enjoy a compact car nationwide for only $29 a day! >Click here for more details. >http://click./1/3011/1/_/4324/_/956124420/ >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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