Guest guest Posted April 21, 1999 Report Share Posted April 21, 1999 Hi, Jan, In this neck of the woods most of the AAs I knew thought it was cool to racist, sexist and homophobic (north Jersey.) Most were reform party types. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 16, 2000 Report Share Posted March 16, 2000 Like hell, Severin! One of the most important parts of this issue is the fact that A.A. DOESN'T work. ===================== Severin47@... wrote: > Most honest people, even those who dislike what goes on in the rooms > will admit that AA does work. This is not the issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 12, 2000 Report Share Posted April 12, 2000 Hi, I was thinking last night after a very good SMART meeting, just how much EASIER it is to remain " sober " after leaving AA. In the last three months since my departure, my whole outlook has improved immensely and life has definitely taken some positive changes. I no longer need to make a " career " out of not drinking. It is no longer my entire life focus, which was where AA was keeping it. After all, if you are told that you only have a daily repreive, (and you believe that, as I once did) then life itself becomes a major piece of work. It's no wonder used the word " trudge. " All I used to care about was if I didn't drink that day. Not much else. What a pitiful existence that was. I have a few friends who had attended AA for a few months, and then went back to drinking heavily. Althougth their drinking will eventually be the physical cause of their demise, I think that the thoughts AA planted in them is what will really kill them. To be told that they are powerless and have an incurable disease is the real death sentence. In this respect, AA is actually killing people. What a lovely program. It may save a few brainwashable idiots, but how many does it truly harm? Alot. No longer trudging, Sue > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 12, 2000 Report Share Posted April 12, 2000 Hi Sue, I noticed when I would go to AA meetings they actually INCREASED my desire to drink because I was unwilling to admit that I am powerless over a liquid. They didn't/don't dig the fact that I am a Buddhist. Buddhism (a non-deistic religion) doesn't work well with the " program. " I actually heard at a meeting last night - yes - I still go because the cult has a strong hold from a social standpoint - that " this is a God program, the 12 steps were given to Bill directly from God and the 'Big Book' is divine inspiration. " Horsesh*t. It amazes me that so many have the herd mentality and get trapped into AA for life. " Meeting Makers Make It " - Yeah right, they make a lot of meetings when they could be out enjoying life using another recovery program that WORKS. Take care of yourself, > > Hi, > > I was thinking last night after a very good SMART meeting, > just how much EASIER it is to remain " sober " after leaving > AA. In the last three months since my departure, my whole > outlook has improved immensely and life has definitely taken > some positive changes. I no longer need to make a " career " > out of not drinking. It is no longer my entire life focus, > which was where AA was keeping it. After all, if you are > told that you only have a daily repreive, (and you believe that, > as I once did) then life itself becomes a major piece of work. > It's no wonder used the word " trudge. " All I used to > care about was if I didn't drink that day. Not much else. > What a pitiful existence that was. > I have a few friends who had attended AA for a few months, > and then went back to drinking heavily. Althougth their > drinking will eventually be the physical cause of their demise, I > think that the thoughts AA planted in them is what will > really kill them. To be told that they are powerless and have an > incurable disease is the real death sentence. In this > respect, AA is actually killing people. What a lovely program. > It may save a few brainwashable idiots, but how many does it > truly harm? Alot. > > No longer trudging, > > Sue > > > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 12, 2000 Report Share Posted April 12, 2000 Hi , I remember some AA's that would repeat that ALL of the time, Don't drink, go to meetings, don't drink, go to meetings, don't drink go to meetings. They wouldn't say much else, just that, and then smile like they knew some kind of secret and were superior for knowing it. Now I've found out that they really didn't know a damn thing except how to chirp out slogans. Check out SMART for a recovery alternative that does hold meetings. This may ease that " social " AA withdrawl. Good luck, glad you're getting free > Sue > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > I was thinking last night after a very good SMART meeting, > > just how much EASIER it is to remain " sober " after leaving > > AA. In the last three months since my departure, my whole > > outlook has improved immensely and life has definitely taken > > some positive changes. I no longer need to make a " career " > > out of not drinking. It is no longer my entire life focus, > > which was where AA was keeping it. After all, if you are > > told that you only have a daily repreive, (and you believe that, > > as I once did) then life itself becomes a major piece of work. > > It's no wonder used the word " trudge. " All I used to > > care about was if I didn't drink that day. Not much else. > > What a pitiful existence that was. > > I have a few friends who had attended AA for a few months, > > and then went back to drinking heavily. Althougth their > > drinking will eventually be the physical cause of their demise, I > > think that the thoughts AA planted in them is what will > > really kill them. To be told that they are powerless and have an > > incurable disease is the real death sentence. In this > > respect, AA is actually killing people. What a lovely program. > > It may save a few brainwashable idiots, but how many does it > > truly harm? Alot. > > > > No longer trudging, > > > > Sue > > > > > > > ______________________________________________________ > > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 12, 2000 Report Share Posted April 12, 2000 > I noticed when I would go to AA meetings they actually INCREASED my > desire to drink .... A pretty good illustration of XA harm is the recent troubles of baseball star Daryl Strawberry. Back in the 1980s, Strawberry and his cousin pitcher Dwight Goodin both got in trouble for cocaine use. Apparently, Goodin didn't buy the 12 step indocrination, but Strawberry did. Guess which one has been in repeated trouble for drugs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 13, 2000 Report Share Posted April 13, 2000 Actually Wally there is a litttle truth in that but only about 5%.In the early days of the fellowship when only 100 or so people stayed sober (At the time it was as well known as Rational Recovery and SMART is known today, but maybe a little more successful) and Bill was trying to get it better known and get sme financial help, he felt that if even 1 person sliipped it woud reflect badly on AA as a whole. Bill realized that some jerks would use this to say that the program didn't work! At that time the only treatment for drunks or addicts was jail or a locked ward in the funny farm. One reason it is still important today is more for the individual involved than the group as a whole. Most honest people, even those who dislike what goes on in the rooms will admit that AA does work. This is not the issue. The issue is giving a person who is trying to get sober a break. It's a lot harder to work the program if millions of eyes are on you. I blame the Yankee organizaion for putting Strawbery's recovery in the limelight. paul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 13, 2000 Report Share Posted April 13, 2000 Good points below. I wonder if Kurt Cobain was a 12-Step " failure. " Before I went into " treatment, " my outlook was " If things get shitty, I've got a choice of heroin or blowing my head off. " Now, I feel like all I have accomplished is to narrow my options to suicide. > > I noticed when I would go to AA meetings they actually INCREASED my > > desire to drink .... > > > A pretty good illustration of XA harm is the recent troubles of > baseball star Daryl Strawberry. Back in the 1980s, Strawberry and > his cousin pitcher Dwight Goodin both got in trouble for cocaine > use. Apparently, Goodin didn't buy the 12 step indocrination, but > Strawberry did. Guess which one has been in repeated trouble for > drugs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 13, 2000 Report Share Posted April 13, 2000 At 14:12 13/04/00 -0400, you wrote: >Most honest people, even those who dislike what goes on in the rooms >will admit that AA does work. Most honest people, if they know what they are talking about, will tell the truth. A 5% effective program " works " - for 5%. > This is not the issue. Yes, it is the issue. Joe B. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 13, 2000 Report Share Posted April 13, 2000 paul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 13, 2000 Report Share Posted April 13, 2000 At 17:06 13/04/00 -0400, you wrote: >Gee, I guess those 50,000 people I saw in San Diego was a mirage. > >paul I've been to conventions too. I noticed that the pyramid was very evident though- the longer the sober time claimed, the fewer of them there were. So you have a relatively large number of newish people, very much fewer people with a number of years and relatively, very few with decades. That tells me that it doesn't work. Except for a small minority, of course. About 5%. Generally, a treatment with an extremely low " success rate " like that would not be classed as " successful " . Joe B. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 13, 2000 Report Share Posted April 13, 2000 Hi Joe, folks As I have indicate before, the 5% issue os only the annual retention rate. apparently, the same AA survey indicates 73% of these ppl are not abstinent. So, the actual annualsuccess figure is abt 1.3%, altho as time goes on this figure will probably decay too - after all, 1 year is an arbitrary cutoff point. An AA friend confided in me that the an unofficial insider doctrine of at least his local AA is that they only claim (internally) 1 in a thousand lasts the 10 years he has! > >Most honest people, even those who dislike what goes on in the rooms > >will admit that AA does work. > > Most honest people, if they know what they are talking about, will tell the > truth. A 5% effective program " works " - for 5%. > > > This is not the issue. > > Yes, it is the issue. > > > Joe B. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 13, 2000 Report Share Posted April 13, 2000 At 21:29 13/04/00 +0000, you wrote: >Hi Joe, folks > >As I have indicate before, the 5% issue os only the annual retention >rate. apparently, the same AA survey indicates 73% of these ppl are >not abstinent. So, the actual annualsuccess figure is abt 1.3%, altho >as time goes on this figure will probably decay too - after all, 1 >year is an arbitrary cutoff point. An AA friend confided in me that >the an unofficial insider doctrine of at least his local AA is that >they only claim (internally) 1 in a thousand lasts the 10 years he >has! Yes, I've heard this too. It is actually rather mind-boggling, isn't it. And somehow they can claim this " works " . With odds like that, going to AA really should be given a govt health warning. Remember the tobacco companies claimed for years that smoking wasn't harmful- and look, now they are ending up in court. Things change. Joe B. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 13, 2000 Report Share Posted April 13, 2000 -----Original Message----- . . . > >Bill realized that some jerks would use this to say that the program >didn't work! At that time the only treatment for drunks or addicts was >jail or a locked ward in the funny farm. Anyone with the least bit of knowledge of AA history knows that Bill sobered up at Towns Hospital in Manhattan, which was neither a jail nor a funny farm. In fact 'treatments' for chronic drunkenness have absolutely abounded since the dawn of the Temperance era in the early 1800's. The one constant factor is that none have them have had any demonstrable effect on the course of the 'illness.' As Vaillant shows in " The Natural History of Alcoholism " this remains true today. Similarly with AA. Folks have been attempting to produce statistical evidence that AA 'works' for 60 years now without success. (These failed attempts are also reviewed in Vaillant.) Ken Ragge, in " More Revealed, " relates the story of how and his cronies schemed to hold , an early miracle of recovery, captive and dry long enough for to appear on Heatter's radio program and spread the word. This incident demonstrates that et. al were perfectly cognizant of the fact that they were perpetrating a fraud on the public. > >One reason it is still important today is more for the individual >involved than the group as a whole. > >Most honest people, even those who dislike what goes on in the rooms >will admit that AA does work. This is true only if you stipulate that those honest people are ignorant of the facts and really haven't thought about it very much. --wally Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 13, 2000 Report Share Posted April 13, 2000 > Actually Wally there is a litttle truth in that but only about 5%.In the > early days of the fellowship when only 100 or so people stayed sober (At > the time it was as well known as Rational Recovery and SMART is known > today, but maybe a little more successful) > and Bill was trying to get it better known and get sme financial help, > he felt that if even 1 person sliipped it woud reflect badly on AA as a > whole. , I'm sure this is what you've been told in meetings but the above simply is not true. When the " fellowship " had only 100 or so, it was called the Oxford Group and had probably hundreds of thousands of members. Of the " 100 " , I've not tried to determine how many stayed " sober. " Ebby, who carried the AA/Oxford Group message to Bill drank himself to death. Four of the eight original success stories in the first edition of the Big Book had to be removed in later editions because they got drunk. Their " sobriety " included taking opiates ( " goofballs " ). The reason for " Anonymity " was because they knew how bad their program worked from experience and knew that if people knew that the person who gave the wonderful salespitch (sermon) extolling the groups that it would hurt His program when he got drunk. > Bill realized that some jerks would use this to say that the program > didn't work! At that time the only treatment for drunks or addicts was > jail or a locked ward in the funny farm. Bill had nasty references for anyone who didn't adopt grouper doctrine, same as " Thank Heaven for a man like Adolph Hitler " Buchman, who was Bill's spiritual leader and the source of AA's " spiritual principles. " > One reason it is still important today is more for the individual > involved than the group as a whole. No, it is not for the individual at all. If you read the historical accounts by the members of Oxford Group's " Alcoholic Squad " you will learn that it is done to protect the group. > Most honest people, even those who dislike what goes on in the rooms > will admit that AA does work. This is nonsense. Most groupers will utter the mantra " It really works " because that is what they've been programmed to do. Vaillant who's credentials as a grouper now extend to being on the board of Alcoholics Anonymous reported from his own research that AA works no better than _no treatment whatsoever_. > This is not the issue. This is exactly what the issue is. It is a religious cult that uses standard cult techniques to recruit new members and make them grateful for " saving " them. > The issue is > giving a person who is trying to get sober a break. Yes, that is the issue. I think it a crying shame that a neo-fascist religious cult under the cover of " Anonymity " coerces, manipulates and lies to those going through difficulties. > It's a lot harder to > work the program if millions of eyes are on you. > I blame the Yankee > organizaion for putting Strawbery's recovery in the limelight. So it is the New York Yankees who are responsible? Very interesting. Of course it couldn't be AA's failure. This group is titled " Twelve Step Free. " This is not the " Grouper Apologist Forum " or the " It Really Works List If You Work It List. " This is not a place to come to and make excuses for AAs failures any more than an ex-Moonie list would be the place to praise Reverend Moon and quote from the Moonie Big Book. Ken > paul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 13, 2000 Report Share Posted April 13, 2000 Joe, even if it were possible to show that there exist some people who go to AA and get sober, who would not have gotten sober had they not gone to AA or something very much like it, I would still quibble with the the notion that this means " AA works " for some people. AA, as it describes itself, involves the invocation of supernatural assistance. Unless you can conclusively prove that somebody went to AA and was then, as a result, zapped sober by the Great Spook, you have no conclusion. I might, of course, more readily accept some other claim, such as that " group support helps. " --wally Re: Re:AAs harms >At 21:29 13/04/00 +0000, you wrote: >>Hi Joe, folks >> >>As I have indicate before, the 5% issue os only the annual retention >>rate. apparently, the same AA survey indicates 73% of these ppl are >>not abstinent. So, the actual annualsuccess figure is abt 1.3%, altho >>as time goes on this figure will probably decay too - after all, 1 >>year is an arbitrary cutoff point. An AA friend confided in me that >>the an unofficial insider doctrine of at least his local AA is that >>they only claim (internally) 1 in a thousand lasts the 10 years he >>has! > >Yes, I've heard this too. It is actually rather mind-boggling, isn't it. >And somehow they can claim this " works " . With odds like that, going to AA >really should be given a govt health warning. Remember the tobacco >companies claimed for years that smoking wasn't harmful- and look, now they >are ending up in court. Things change. > >Joe B. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 13, 2000 Report Share Posted April 13, 2000 Thanks Ken. _GPdA > > Actually Wally there is a litttle truth in that but only about > 5%.In the > > early days of the fellowship when only 100 or so people stayed > sober > (At > > the time it was as well known as Rational Recovery and SMART is > known > > today, but maybe a little more successful) > > and Bill was trying to get it better known and get sme financial > help, > > he felt that if even 1 person sliipped it woud reflect badly on AA > as a > > whole. > > , > > I'm sure this is what you've been told in meetings but the above > simply is not true. When the " fellowship " had only 100 or so, it > was > called the Oxford Group and had probably hundreds of thousands of > members. Of the " 100 " , I've not tried to determine how many stayed > " sober. " Ebby, who carried the AA/Oxford Group message to Bill > > drank himself to death. Four of the eight original success stories > in > the first edition of the Big Book had to be removed in later > editions because they got drunk. Their " sobriety " included taking > opiates ( " goofballs " ). > > The reason for " Anonymity " was because they knew how bad their > program worked from experience and knew that if people knew that the > person who gave the wonderful salespitch (sermon) extolling the > groups > that it would hurt His program when he got drunk. > > > Bill realized that some jerks would use this to say that the program > > didn't work! At that time the only treatment for drunks or addicts > was > > jail or a locked ward in the funny farm. > > Bill had nasty references for anyone who didn't adopt grouper > doctrine, same as " Thank Heaven for a man like Adolph Hitler " > Buchman, who was Bill's spiritual leader and the source of AA's > " spiritual principles. " > > > One reason it is still important today is more for the individual > > involved than the group as a whole. > > No, it is not for the individual at all. If you read the historical > accounts by the members of Oxford Group's " Alcoholic Squad " you will > learn that it is done to protect the group. > > > Most honest people, even those who dislike what goes on in the rooms > > will admit that AA does work. > > This is nonsense. Most groupers will utter the mantra " It really > works " because that is what they've been programmed to do. > Vaillant who's credentials as a grouper now extend to being on the > board of Alcoholics Anonymous reported from his own research that AA > works no better than _no treatment whatsoever_. > > > This is not the issue. > > This is exactly what the issue is. It is a religious cult that uses > standard cult techniques to recruit new members and make them > grateful > for " saving " them. > > > The issue is > > giving a person who is trying to get sober a break. > > Yes, that is the issue. I think it a crying shame that a neo- fascist > religious cult under the cover of " Anonymity " coerces, manipulates > and lies to those going through difficulties. > > > It's a lot harder to > > work the program if millions of eyes are on you. > > I blame the Yankee > > organizaion for putting Strawbery's recovery in the limelight. > > So it is the New York Yankees who are responsible? Very interesting. > Of course it couldn't be AA's failure. > > This group is titled " Twelve Step Free. " This is not the " Grouper > Apologist Forum " or the " It Really Works List If You Work It List. " > This is not a place to come to and make excuses for AAs failures any > more than an ex-Moonie list would be the place to praise Reverend > Moon > and quote from the Moonie Big Book. > > Ken > > > paul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 14, 2000 Report Share Posted April 14, 2000 Wally wrote: << ...even if it were possible to show that there exist some people who go to AA and get sober, who would not have gotten sober had they not gone to AA or something very much like it, I would still quibble with the the notion that this means " AA works " for some people. AA, as it describes itself, involves the invocation of supernatural assistance. Unless you can conclusively prove that somebody went to AA and was then, as a result, zapped sober by the Great Spook, you have no conclusion. I might, of course, more readily accept some other claim, such as that " group support helps. " >> ------------------------ Absolutely 100% right on, Wally. I really fail to see how, if someone discontinues drinking and concurrently happens to attend AA meetings, " work the steps " , etc., that this is " proof " that " working the steps " is what got them sober, or that they could not have gotten sober without AA. The problem, I think, is that AA literature specifically forbids anyone from taking credit for their own sobriety; you must give ALL credit to God/HP and to the AA fellowship, and are NEVER to believe in your own power. Now if one of the many people who self-recovered found companionship and purpose, etc., in a bird-watching club, and felt less lonely/more fulfilled in their (now sober) life, they would hardly be likely to say that bird-watching " made " them sober, or that their sobriety hinges on regular attendance at bird-watchings! They would simply say (if asked at all) that they decided to stop drinking, and that they enjoy the ornithology club. I would really like it if someone would actually do a study, with a statistically significant sample, comparing problem drinkers who embark on sobriety while attending clubs or groups which have nothing to do with substance abuse, to people who attend specifically recovery-oriented groups (further broken down into 12-step v. non-12-step). That would answer the question of whether companionship and purpose are the true aspects of AA which have any benefit, rather than the weird meanderings of step-work. ~Rita Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 14, 2000 Report Share Posted April 14, 2000 I heard EXACTLY the same thing when I was there. But then they started bickering, one old-timer said three years, the other said five. Then the three year guy agreed with the five year guy. Ah, the mentality of the herd. > > I remember a women telling me once that I would not be truly > sober until I had been without a drink and in the program for > 5 years. WHAT??? I guess that up to that 5 year mark, you're > just chopped liver. What a loving program,,,just don't drink > and come to meetings and never forget that you will never be > well. Cuz' if ya' do, you'll drink and die. This is some > real spiritual stuff. > And how about " never say no when anyone asks you to do anything > in AA. " WHAT??? > AA must come before anything else in your life. Anything. > WHAT??? > The problem that I had was that I kept trying to make sense > out of complete NONSENSE. And it just wouldn't click. It always > felt wrong because it is wrong. > > Sue > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 14, 2000 Report Share Posted April 14, 2000 > > >I heard EXACTLY the same thing when I was there. But then they >started bickering, one old-timer said three years, the other said >five. Then the three year guy agreed with the five year guy. > , This got me chuckling. I can just visualize the 2 stooges agruing over this. With people believing ideas like this, it would be so easy to infiltrate AA and pass around some very crazy stuff. All you would have to say is that is what your sponsor told you. It would be then recog- nized as gospel and passed along. Oooops....that's already been done...in fact it's the whole program! LOL Sue ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 14, 2000 Report Share Posted April 14, 2000 reminds me of my favorite slogan " anything you put before your sobriety you will lose " .. given that used on pigeons when they want to do something with thier time other than AA (you know like work, family, school) this means you will lose those things if doing them means you will miss meetings. how do i lose my self respect, my family, my job, my education if i spend time doing the very things which enhance those areas of my life? how does missing a meeting do that EXACTLY? and they say it isnt a cult? dave > > I remember a women telling me once that I would not be truly > sober until I had been without a drink and in the program for > 5 years. WHAT??? I guess that up to that 5 year mark, you're > just chopped liver. What a loving program,,,just don't drink > and come to meetings and never forget that you will never be > well. Cuz' if ya' do, you'll drink and die. This is some > real spiritual stuff. > And how about " never say no when anyone asks you to do anything > in AA. " WHAT??? > AA must come before anything else in your life. Anything. > WHAT??? > The problem that I had was that I kept trying to make sense > out of complete NONSENSE. And it just wouldn't click. It always > felt wrong because it is wrong. > > Sue > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 14, 2000 Report Share Posted April 14, 2000 Hi Sue - glad you got a chuckle out of this. I've seriously thought about going in for a " 30 day chip " taking it - throwing it back in the basket and then throwing Ken Ragge's book down on the table, or Trimpey's RR book and saying, " This first book debunks your cult and this second one shows that other things do WORK. " I could just hear them - blasphemer, demon, devil!!! Keep coming back...we love you. Didn't this flight come with a complimentary barf bag? > > > > > > > >I heard EXACTLY the same thing when I was there. But then they > >started bickering, one old-timer said three years, the other said > >five. Then the three year guy agreed with the five year guy. > > > > , This got me chuckling. I can just visualize the 2 > stooges agruing over this. > With people believing ideas like this, it would be > so easy to infiltrate AA and pass around some very > crazy stuff. All you would have to say is that is > what your sponsor told you. It would be then recog- > nized as gospel and passed along. > > Oooops....that's already been done...in fact it's the > whole program! LOL > > Sue > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 14, 2000 Report Share Posted April 14, 2000 Hi Dave, This brings to mind a conversation I had at my final cult indoctrination meeting. I was sitting outside, chatting with one of the old-timers talking about getting back in top physical shape so I could do some climbing in the Himalayas next year. This means a lot of time in the gym and less time in smoke filled meeting rooms (a good thing, or so i THOUGHT - oops there went my 'stinking thinkin' again - damn! " First things first, , " so she said. Like I said, can I please get a complimentary barf bag? Or are we all out of them on this particular flight? Peace > > > > I remember a women telling me once that I would not be truly > > sober until I had been without a drink and in the program for > > 5 years. WHAT??? I guess that up to that 5 year mark, you're > > just chopped liver. What a loving program,,,just don't drink > > and come to meetings and never forget that you will never be > > well. Cuz' if ya' do, you'll drink and die. This is some > > real spiritual stuff. > > And how about " never say no when anyone asks you to do anything > > in AA. " WHAT??? > > AA must come before anything else in your life. Anything. > > WHAT??? > > The problem that I had was that I kept trying to make sense > > out of complete NONSENSE. And it just wouldn't click. It always > > felt wrong because it is wrong. > > > > Sue > > > > ______________________________________________________ > > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 14, 2000 Report Share Posted April 14, 2000 go for it shannon. climb that mountain. when i got sober, my first instinct was to get myself to a point where i felt good about myself again. this for me also meant getting in good physical shape, to to take pride in myself and care of my well being. to show my self some self respect physically after having abused my body thru substances for so long. i also wanted to quit smoking, something i knew i couldn't have done if i still drank. these things seemed like the most natural progression of my desire to be sober. i also wanted to ride my bike again, something that had become seemingly impossible to do as i drank and smoked more and more. but somehow the 'elders " this seemed to think these ideas meant conflict with the goal of sobriety (AA goal " serenity " actually) and i was told that " none of those things ever kept anyone sober " (oh really? ANYONE? not ever? they did a poll?) and that " anything i would put in front of my sobriety i would lose " (many people in AA confuse pride, self respect, self reliance, self responsibility and ego with ego manna, willfulness and arrogance. these people are in my opinion, idiots.) when i was 4 months sober i fell for this nonsense and gave up my attempt to quit smoking and exercise. when my mom was diagnosed with lung cancer at 10 months i quit smoking that day (i haven't smoked again since that day and never will) my 2 pack a day sponsor was hardly supportive of my efforts to not smoke. he told me to smoke if i had urge to drink. (hmm why would i have a desire to do either?) he scolded me for putting my chewing gum in a ash tray at a meetings (seemed like they were good enough for his disgusting cancer sticks) and he said he couldn't understand how i was able to quit smoking when i hadn't even done the 12-steps yet. (this was because i was becoming more and more independent of his will as i became aware of the extent of his attempts at mental domination. its also odd, given that i hadn't done them either when i quit drinking, and neither had he! geez!) anyways after i blew off AA forever at 11 months sober and i got back in gym. i also did unthinkable, i blew off my 1 year anniversary! im so proud of that:) instead of displaying my mock gratitude to " program for and sponsor saving me " to those AA know it alls, i celebrated my 1 year with my mom and dad in our back yard on a wonderful summer day. that has more significance to em than anything i ever experienced in 11 months of meetings and AA " service " work. and 2 months later i rode my bike 20 miles for first time in 15 years! that was a great day for me. today im in perhaps the best shape of my life, i don't drink or smoke or do drugs and everything i do for myself, my sobriety, the exercising, is an expression of my self respect for myself and my desire to be productive and available for my family and friends. so shannon, anything you do which makes you feel good about yourself, and gives you a sense of self respect, pride in your accomplishments is good for your sobriety. if someone in AA tells you different, please tell them to fuck off. because they obviously dont care about your well being, only thier dogma. dave > > > > > > I remember a women telling me once that I would not be truly > > > sober until I had been without a drink and in the program for > > > 5 years. WHAT??? I guess that up to that 5 year mark, you're > > > just chopped liver. What a loving program,,,just don't drink > > > and come to meetings and never forget that you will never be > > > well. Cuz' if ya' do, you'll drink and die. This is some > > > real spiritual stuff. > > > And how about " never say no when anyone asks you to do > anything > > > in AA. " WHAT??? > > > AA must come before anything else in your life. Anything. > > > WHAT??? > > > The problem that I had was that I kept trying to make sense > > > out of complete NONSENSE. And it just wouldn't click. It > always > > > felt wrong because it is wrong. > > > > > > Sue > > > > > > ______________________________________________________ > > > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 14, 2000 Report Share Posted April 14, 2000 go for it shannon. climb that mountain. when i got sober, my first instinct was to get myself to a point where i felt good about myself again. this for me also meant getting in good physical shape, to to take pride in myself and care of my well being. to show my self some self respect physically after having abused my body thru substances for so long. i also wanted to quit smoking, something i knew i couldn't have done if i still drank. these things seemed like the most natural progression of my desire to be sober. i also wanted to ride my bike again, something that had become seemingly impossible to do as i drank and smoked more and more. but somehow the 'elders " this seemed to think these ideas meant conflict with the goal of sobriety (AA goal " serenity " actually) and i was told that " none of those things ever kept anyone sober " (oh really? ANYONE? not ever? they did a poll?) and that " anything i would put in front of my sobriety i would lose " (many people in AA confuse pride, self respect, self reliance, self responsibility and ego with ego manna, willfulness and arrogance. these people are in my opinion, idiots.) when i was 4 months sober i fell for this nonsense and gave up my attempt to quit smoking and exercise. when my mom was diagnosed with lung cancer at 10 months i quit smoking that day (i haven't smoked again since that day and never will) my 2 pack a day sponsor was hardly supportive of my efforts to not smoke. he told me to smoke if i had urge to drink. (hmm why would i have a desire to do either?) he scolded me for putting my chewing gum in a ash tray at a meetings (seemed like they were good enough for his disgusting cancer sticks) and he said he couldn't understand how i was able to quit smoking when i hadn't even done the 12-steps yet. (this was because i was becoming more and more independent of his will as i became aware of the extent of his attempts at mental domination. its also odd, given that i hadn't done them either when i quit drinking, and neither had he! geez!) anyways after i blew off AA forever at 11 months sober and i got back in gym. i also did unthinkable, i blew off my 1 year anniversary! im so proud of that:) instead of displaying my mock gratitude to " program for and sponsor saving me " to those AA know it alls, i celebrated my 1 year with my mom and dad in our back yard on a wonderful summer day. that has more significance to em than anything i ever experienced in 11 months of meetings and AA " service " work. and 2 months later i rode my bike 20 miles for first time in 15 years! that was a great day for me. today im in perhaps the best shape of my life, i don't drink or smoke or do drugs and everything i do for myself, my sobriety, the exercising, is an expression of my self respect for myself and my desire to be productive and available for my family and friends. so shannon, anything you do which makes you feel good about yourself, and gives you a sense of self respect, pride in your accomplishments is good for your sobriety. if someone in AA tells you different, please tell them to fuck off. because they obviously dont care about your well being, only thier dogma. dave > > > > > > I remember a women telling me once that I would not be truly > > > sober until I had been without a drink and in the program for > > > 5 years. WHAT??? I guess that up to that 5 year mark, you're > > > just chopped liver. What a loving program,,,just don't drink > > > and come to meetings and never forget that you will never be > > > well. Cuz' if ya' do, you'll drink and die. This is some > > > real spiritual stuff. > > > And how about " never say no when anyone asks you to do > anything > > > in AA. " WHAT??? > > > AA must come before anything else in your life. Anything. > > > WHAT??? > > > The problem that I had was that I kept trying to make sense > > > out of complete NONSENSE. And it just wouldn't click. It > always > > > felt wrong because it is wrong. > > > > > > Sue > > > > > > ______________________________________________________ > > > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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