Guest guest Posted April 13, 2000 Report Share Posted April 13, 2000 And what a mailbag it must be. Apple, i think i love you! you go Grrl! that was one nice piece of work on your part. That's a keeper. You totally devastated his argument. ifind it facinating when people who have web pages or books critical of AA are accused of " being in it for the money " what a joke! these people have no idea of the realties of the economics of the internet or book publishing for that matter. i can just picture ken and chaz and apple living their liives of luxury in the south of france as they live off the huge royaltiies and movie rights thier work generates! isnt that sandra bulock i see in the new movie " The Real AA- Based on the Book by Ken R.? (in reality it is called " 28 Days " , as told by one stepper to the universe. one of the growing lsit of pro-12-step treatment movies and tv shows. now thats where the $ is!) and lets not forget those individuals who still fight the good fight on usenet in ARF-12steps vs. AA trolls there. man those guys pull in the dough! .. not to mention when they make such accusations they demonstrate their belief that those who find fault with AA are insincere, greedy and being dishonest with themselves. and if that what they believe in their ignorance, how can they say they have looked into said criticisms with honest objectivity if they are unable of admitting and getting past the fact the person making the criticism has a a sincere motive? its also worthy of noting this person defense of AA is textbook. literally. every thing he said is a slogan or standard defense which i have heard verbatim in meetings and on web. there wasnt one original thought or idea proposed. in his email. dave:) PS. im a designer too! - -- In 12-step-freeegroups, " Apple " <AppleDTP@a...> wrote: > > Hi everyone! > Sorry I'm not posting much. I'm in love. My favorite drug of all. > Anyway, here's a mail I got and the response I wrote. Thought you > might > find it entertaining. > > Tommy K. wrote: > My drinking career started in earnest at age 12 although alcohol was > no > stranger to me even by then. I am 47 now with 8 years sobriety (you > do > the math). I was one of those RICHES TO RAGS drunks. Worked my way up > from poverty and sent it crashing straight to hell. Before it was all > said and done I had been diagnosed severe manic depressive with sever > anxiety disorder and throw in a dose of paranoia for good measure. > Its > a REAL miracle I am alive today to state my views. > > Apple: I'm glad Tommy, that you're alive, and that your drinking is > no > longer a problem to you today. Congratulations. I mean it. The > destruction of alcohol abuse is tragic. > > Tommy: First of all; AA is NOT a religious anything! (RELIGION IS FOR > THOSE WHO DONT WANT TO GO TO HELL--SPIRITUALITY IS FOR THOSE OF US > WHO > HAVE ALREADY BEEN THERE!) Many athiest have recovered in this > programe. > > Apple: AA can say that they are not religious until they are blue in > the face, but the fact of the matter is, that several US courts (even > state supreme courts) have declared the AA program to be religious in > nature. Furthermore, the definion of religion (and therefore > religious) > easily fits what can be found in AA. > > I pulled this from www.dictionary.com > > http://www.dictionary.com/cgi-bin/dict.pl?term=religion > > Here's the first entry. There's more on the link if you care to > peruse > it at your leisure. > > re·lig·ion (r-ljn) > n. Abbr. rel., relig. > 1. a.Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers > regarded as creator and governor of the universe. > b.A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and > worship. > 2.The life or condition of a person in a religious order. > 3.A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a > spiritual leader. > 4.A cause, a principle, or an activity pursued with zeal or > conscientious devotion. > > Idioms: > get religion Informal > To accept a higher power as a controlling influence for the good in > one's life. > > Tommy: Second; We at AA dont " FORCE " anything on anyone! We mearly > suggest that if you want what we have you follow our twelve steps to > get there.What we have is serenity, peace and a sense of joy like > never > before in our life times.Sure-Its not perfect but it is a whole lot > better. > > Apple: Hmmm... let me think about this idea of " forcing " people. OK, > no one is held at gunpoint to accept recovery concepts, nevertheless, > fearful people (who fear drinking -- often with good reason at the > time), are indoctrinated into AA with fatalistic language... i.e. > " our > fate is jails, institutions, or death " (simply not true for many > members), " there are those too who do not recover, those who cannot > or > will not completely give themselves to this simple program, there are > such unfortunates, they are constitutionally incapable of being > honest > with themselves " ...(if AA doesn't work for you, you are a dishonest > person again -- simply not true) and so on... these fearful people > are > threatened with this language... namely to accept AA concepts, or > die. > That may not be " FORCING " people as you describe, but it certainly > can > be called THREATENING them with dire consequences when they are in a > vulnerable state. And that is certainly not kosher. > > You may feel serene Tommy... you may feel a sense of peace and joy, > but > I don't see how you are qualified to speak for the others. I spent 7 > years in AA, and while I found some people who exhibited these > characteristics, I found a lot more who had some deep seated, bottled > up issues, repressed anger or other strong emotions, and > psychological > problems which really needed to be addressed in a different > setting... > I also saw a lot of fear in the rooms. The AA program is a fear based > program. Living from a fear basis does not make for a healthy > paradigm. > > Tommy: Thirdly; We at AA NEVER claim to be the only way to recovery! > NEVER! We work diligently with many institutions, hospitals, > doctors(of > all sorts), churches, mosques, > temples, etc. etc. > > Apple: I never heard of other recovery programs mentioned in the > rooms. > Based on my experience, I found that AA was interested in.... well... > AA... and not in finding the right answers for individuals based on > their unique needs and histories. I never heard anyone tell a > newcomer > " Maybe you should try SMART, or Rational Recovery, or perhaps you > should moderate... maybe you're NOT an alcoholic, or perhaps Women > for > Sobriety would be a better bet for you " . Nope... I seem to remember, > " sit down and shut up " , " take the cotton from your ears and put it in > your mouth " , " your thinking is stinking " , " rebelliousnes is a disease > symptom " and so on. > > Tommy: OK--I conceade some members may from time to time step out of > line but good lord your dealing with alcoholics here, don't you think > that is to be expected? I'll tell you what though, we pass judgement > on > no one and even these rogue bulls are welcome back should they choose > to returne. > > Apple: So the alcoholics should be excused for their poor behavior? > Perhaps in some Christian fairy-land, life makes sense without > passing > judgement on others, but in the real world Tommy, passing judgement > is > a necessary social process. Everytime a murderer or child molester or > robber is sent to prison, he first stands before a judge. He is heard > > by a jury of his peers who pass judgement on him. This social > process > and its variants is accepted by civilized cultures worldwide, for > good > reason. Furthermore, everytime we hire someone, we pass judgement. > Will > this person be a suitable candidate? Will he do the job? Everytime > we > choose a mate, we pass judgement. Is this the person who is right > for > me? Judging others is a normal and necessary human process. > > And if people are hurting others in the rooms of AA, you can bet your > Big Book that I will pass judgement. Why should the sexual predator > find a happy home in AA, feeding off of the vulnerability of > newcomers? > Because the other members are too " spiritual " to pass judgement? " Oh > well, some are sicker than others. " chime the spiritual elite in the > rooms... I say " Bullshit! " Would you accept that dumb line from a > supreme court judge who is there to sentence your daughter's killer? > I > hope not. > > Tommy: Lastly; Our track record speaks for itself. How many millions > of > lives have you saved? Please stop knocking AA and join us. See what > you > can contribute to our mutual goal of saving lives. You seem to be > very > intelligent-- put that gift to work for something other than selling > books. > > Apple: Hmmmm.... more on the famous non-verifiable AA track record > and > a repeat of your earlier question... (note to list: he asked this in > his previous e-mail to me) " how many millions of lives have I saved? " > > I already stated in my last message what my mission is. Our missions > are not identical. Please stop comparing my goals to that of your > beloved organization. I don't think I would be a good candidate for > AA > anyway. Why? Because I don't like it there. I like it on the > outside. > The air is fresher out here. (deep inhale..... mmmmmmm) > > Tommy: Now; Your agenda on the surface seems to be monitary (book > sales) so I dont really expect you to actually print this letter for > your subscribers to see but maybe--just maybe you'll prove me wrong. > > Apple: Actually Tommy, my agenda is exactly what is written in the > mission statement, and not the insignificant amount I make in book > sales from amazon.com comissions. You seem to ignore the mission > statement at every opportunity... either that, or you simply don't > belive that I am truly motivated by what I have wtitten therein. > Belive > me, that IS my motive. While I do bring in a few bucks in book > comissions, this amount just about covers what I pay out of my own > pocket for the domain name. www.AAdeprogramming.com. As for the time > and research I have put into the site, and the time that I spend > updating it, answering mail, etc., I am not compensated for it > financially at all. Tommy, my profession is that of graphic artist. > I > earn a decent living. Why on earth would I spend so much time on a > website which " breaks even " financially as far as the money I put > into > it is concerned, and doesn't compensate whatsoever for my time, if my > motive truly is to " get rich " ? Believe me, I can earn a lot more > cash > doing graphic design for my clients than I can counting the change > from > the amazon.com commissions. > > And by the way Tommy, you may want to check out the following link: > http://www.gso.org/aaws/index.htm > You may have missed this link on the links page, but it is run by a > site which catalogs AA history. This page has copies of the documents > proving that Bill W. received HUGE royalties from AA World Services > for > the writing of the Big Book. It might be wise to take that into > consideration before identifying who it is that really has (had) a > " profit motive " . > Oh, and while you're at it, don't forget to question the beloved 12- > step-treatment industry (rehabs) which charge $1500 and up PER NIGHT > for a cot, a librium and a Big Book. > > I'll be happy to print this letter, with your permission, and with > my > response intact. > Whadda ya say? > Apple > > > > > > > RESPECTFULLY SUBMITTED--TOMMY O. FORT SMITH AR. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 13, 2000 Report Share Posted April 13, 2000 What a wonderful image... ah yes... Ken Ragge sips the finest Dom Perignon on his yacht.... and I hear Chaz is dating Ivana Trump... He can afford to have such high-maintenance women with all of his profits rolling in. It's cute isn't it when the AA canned answer is the rebuttle. It's also scary. Apple > > And what a mailbag it must be. > > Apple, i think i love you! you go Grrl! that was one nice piece of > work on your part. That's a keeper. You totally > devastated his argument. > > ifind it facinating when people who have web pages or books critical > of AA are > accused of " being in it for the money " what a > joke! these people have no idea of the realties of the economics of > the internet or book publishing for that matter. i can just picture > ken and chaz and apple living their liives of luxury > in the south of france as they live off the huge royaltiies and movie > rights thier work generates! isnt that sandra > bulock i see in the new movie " The Real AA- Based on the Book by Ken > R.? > > (in reality it is called " 28 Days " , as told by one stepper to the > universe. one of the growing lsit of pro-12-step > treatment movies and tv shows. now thats where the $ is!) > > and lets not forget those individuals who still fight the good fight > on usenet in ARF-12steps vs. AA trolls there. man > those guys pull in the dough! > > . not to mention when they make such accusations they demonstrate > their belief that those who find fault with AA are > insincere, greedy and being dishonest with themselves. and if that > what they believe in their ignorance, how can they > say they have looked into said criticisms with honest objectivity if > they are unable of admitting and getting past the > fact the person making the criticism has a a sincere motive? > > its also worthy of noting this person defense of AA is textbook. > literally. every thing he said is a slogan or standard > defense which i have heard verbatim in meetings and on web. there > wasnt one original thought or idea proposed. > in his email. > > > dave:) > > PS. im a designer too! > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 14, 2000 Report Share Posted April 14, 2000 Well done Apple! I enjoyed reading this immensely. Judith > > Hi everyone! > Sorry I'm not posting much. I'm in love. My favorite drug of all. > Anyway, here's a mail I got and the response I wrote. Thought you > might > find it entertaining. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 14, 2000 Report Share Posted April 14, 2000 At 01:50 14/04/00 +0000, you wrote: >its also worthy of noting this person defense of AA is textbook. >literally. every thing he said is a slogan or standard >defense which i have heard verbatim in meetings and on web. there >wasnt one original thought or idea proposed. >in his email. > > >dave:) That's the beauty of it I suppose- they can criticise what they (obviously) do not understand, and all without engaging the brain. I could do it once but I seem to have lost the knack somehow... Joe B. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 14, 2000 Report Share Posted April 14, 2000 Of course thousands of AA members have translated their 'recovery' into cash income, sometimes in large amounts, by working as counselors, going into the treatment business, starting EAPs, etc. $Billions have changed hands. If you recognize the fact that 'treatment' IS institutional AA, then AA may amount to the most costly health-care fraud in all of human history, both in terms of wasted resources and the number of lives wrecked. -- wally -----Original Message----- >What a wonderful image... ah yes... Ken Ragge sips the finest Dom >Perignon on his yacht.... and I hear Chaz is dating Ivana Trump... He >can afford to have such high-maintenance women with all of his >profits >rolling in. It's cute isn't it when the AA canned answer is the >rebuttle. It's also scary. >Apple Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 19, 2000 Report Share Posted April 19, 2000 > And let us not forget how Bill W. originally wanted to start hospitals for > alcoholics. I can't recall why he never went on with this dream. Was he > talked out of it? The short answer is yes, in that he was talked out of being paid by an exosting hospital (probably Towns) but the long answer is at least one such attempt ended in disaster, again recorded in the 12 & 12, and the original AA's realized that their excessive claims couldnt possibly be maintained in a hospital format, which would come under the scrutiny of the medical profession which at *that* time was largely dismissive of it. P. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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