Guest guest Posted March 29, 2000 Report Share Posted March 29, 2000 Went to the SMART meeting last night, which is becoming sparsely attended due partially to the fact that this IS the goal. One DOES " graduate " and gets on with their life. When people are not there, it is not asssumed that they are drinking, it is assumed that they have better things to do. I am happy to report that the " newbie " there was a chemical dependency counselor. He was disturbed by the idea of referrring everyone to 12-step programs. He is now searching out alternatives that he may offer. He left with a ton of SMART literature and promises to return next week to learn more. A fellow who was court-ordered to AA has been attending SMART instead. The courts had accepted his slip signed by SMART. When someone drinks again at SMART, they do not lose their sobriey or their " chip. " There aren't any damn chips. One fellow drank again after one year. He is considered to have " one year, less a few days. " With this refreshing approach, he seems to be back on track, rather than heading towards a downhill spiral. It's so nice to have this alternative. Sue ______________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 29, 2000 Report Share Posted March 29, 2000 In a message dated 3/29/00 5:55:16 PM Eastern Standard Time, railroadrita@... writes: > Any SMART group which continues to sign court/employer mandatory > attendance slips is, like AA, indirectly supporting coercion and > control-freakism. > But also keeping some poor soul out of jail. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 29, 2000 Report Share Posted March 29, 2000 In a message dated 3/29/00 7:00:32 PM Eastern Standard Time, perkinstommy@... writes: > ou say you are keeping someone out of jail, , but have you ever > approached the authorities to complain. I think this is being a little naive. I doubt my voice would keep anyone out of jail. But yes, I have been involved in the Harm Reduction movement. After 27 years we still haven't been able to get the Rockerfeller drug laws changed! And many voices more powerful than mine have been involved with that. Moreover, the person who is at ther Smart meeting instead of sitting in a cell contemplating suicide is not worried about any great ideals. He just wants to be treated like a Human being again. Your agrument is a Utilitarian one. I prefer looking at each individual. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 29, 2000 Report Share Posted March 29, 2000 Hi Rita Arguably coerced SMART meetings are acceptable as they do not violate religious freedom as coerced AA does. However, no-one should be coerced to something designed for a problem that they dont have, and as you werent substance dependent, coercion to SMART was inappropriate. Thewre are also other possible reasons why ppl ought not be coerced to SMART but this is very much a sideshow compared to AA-coercion. Groups like SMART accepting coerced ppl does not legitimize AA coercion, particularly as they are giving an *alternative* to AA. however, it will inevitably tend to look like that, and so until AA coercion is thouroughly broken, it might be prudent for the alternatives to discourage coercion to them too. P. " railroad rita " wrote: original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=14244 > " sue styd " wrote: > original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=142 24 > > > A fellow who was court-ordered to AA has been attending SMART > > instead. The courts had accepted his slip signed by SMART. > > > --------------------------- > > SMART is a pretty cool alternative. But I am troubled by the > statement above. > > I also was " allowed " to have my coerced attendance slips signed by > SMART coordinators instead of AA chairs (after filing my lawsuit). I > personally cannot feel thrilled with this. I did not feel any need for > SMART meetings, did not have any problem with drinking by that time, > and experienced the required time away from home (including travel > time, about 3 hours, two evenings a week) as intrusive and damaging to > my relationship with my son. > > Coerced " help " is WRONG!!! Why should any sane adult have to have > a set number of attendance slips signed as " proof " they are being > " helped " ?? Especially from support groups which describe themselves as > " voluntary " , " take what you need and leave the rest " , or in the case of > SMART, that " we discourage developing a dependency on meetings, and > feel everyone should decide for him/herself how long to attend " ? > Coerced attendance satisfies the fantasies of the person/entity doing > the coercing, but does very little good for the coerced attendee. > > The only way to put an attend to the infantilizing practice of > requiring X number of meetings per week for Y number of weeks, with > proof, is for meeting chairs and facilitators to start doing something > such as the following: sign the FIRST slip presented by the coerced > attendee, and to it attach a note to the court, EAP, or whatever > offending agency, stating that SMART (or whichever support group) is a > voluntary group for mature adults which is supposed to be attended > anonymously, that whether one needs to attend recovery support > meetings, and/or for how long, is a totally individual decision and > varies from person to person, and that therefore SMART (or whichever) > cannot participate in the practice of signing coerced-attendance slips. > > Any SMART group which continues to sign court/employer mandatory > attendance slips is, like AA, indirectly supporting coercion and > control-freakism. > > ~Rita > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 29, 2000 Report Share Posted March 29, 2000 miken-@... wrote: original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=14250 > In a message dated 3/29/00 5:55:16 PM Eastern Standard Time, > railroadrita@... writes: > > > Any SMART group which continues to sign court/employer mandatory > > attendance slips is, like AA, indirectly supporting coercion and > > control-freakism. > > > But also keeping some poor soul out of jail. I'm going to agree with Rita here, but I'm going to make it short. I don't have the computer time some of you have, and I've sort of made a resolution not to get into any long debates with Pete, just because our opinions are so diametrically opposite and my time is so short. As I have said before, any organization which participates in or condones coercion to attend their program, religious or not, is violating the natural human right of freedom of association, and is in itself an enemy of freedom and human dignity. What program " works " is a silly question which itself is insulting to human dignity. It is always a personal matter. And it is the power and control that corrupts people. You say you are keeping someone out of jail, , but have you ever approached the authorities to complain. Signing slips without doing that perpetuates the abuse and sends a message to the judges, etc. that everything is fine. And furthermore, if that person who is being coerced is being coerced because he has exercised his God-given, natural human right to self medication according to the dictates of his own conscience (crack, heroin or whatever) and has committed no real crime, then he is a double or even tripple victim. These are some of the most persecuted people on the planet--arrested for self medication and then imprisioned and losing their most precious of all natural human rights, their right to worship God according to the dictates of their own consciences. It's a crazy world that does this and lets violent predators off with little or no hard time. Tommy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 29, 2000 Report Share Posted March 29, 2000 Hey Tommy No diammetric opposition here at all - maybe difference of opnion, but no debates needed! P. " tommy perkins " wrote: original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=14256 > miken-@... wrote: > original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=142 50 > > In a message dated 3/29/00 5:55:16 PM Eastern Standard Time, > > railroadrita@... writes: > > > > > Any SMART group which continues to sign court/employer mandatory > > > attendance slips is, like AA, indirectly supporting coercion and > > > control-freakism. > > > > > But also keeping some poor soul out of jail. > > I'm going to agree with Rita here, but I'm going to make it short. I > don't have the computer time some of you have, and I've sort of made a > resolution not to get into any long debates with Pete, just because our > opinions are so diametrically opposite and my time is so short. > > As I have said before, any organization which participates in or > condones coercion to attend their program, religious or not, is > violating the natural human right of freedom of association, and is in > itself an enemy of freedom and human dignity. What program " works " is > a silly question which itself is insulting to human dignity. It is > always a personal matter. And it is the power and control that > corrupts people. > > You say you are keeping someone out of jail, , but have you ever > approached the authorities to complain. Signing slips without doing > that perpetuates the abuse and sends a message to the judges, etc. that > everything is fine. > > And furthermore, if that person who is being coerced is being coerced > because he has exercised his God-given, natural human right to self > medication according to the dictates of his own conscience (crack, > heroin or whatever) and has committed no real crime, then he is a > double or even tripple victim. These are some of the most persecuted > people on the planet--arrested for self medication and then imprisioned > and losing their most precious of all natural human rights, their right > to worship God according to the dictates of their own consciences. > It's a crazy world that does this and lets violent predators off with > little or no hard time. > > Tommy > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 29, 2000 Report Share Posted March 29, 2000 You must have misunderstood me. I meant have you ever complained about the forced attendence/slip signing, not the drug laws? miken-@... wrote: original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=14262 > In a message dated 3/29/00 7:00:32 PM Eastern Standard Time, > perkinstommy@... writes: > > > ou say you are keeping someone out of jail, , but have you ever > > approached the authorities to complain. > > > I think this is being a little naive. I doubt my voice would keep anyone out > of jail. But yes, I have been involved in the Harm Reduction movement. After > 27 years we still haven't been able to get the Rockerfeller drug laws > changed! And many voices more powerful than mine have been involved with > that. > > Moreover, the person who is at ther Smart meeting instead of sitting in a > cell contemplating suicide is not worried about any great ideals. He just > wants to be treated like a Human being again. > > Your agrument is a Utilitarian one. I prefer looking at each individual. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 29, 2000 Report Share Posted March 29, 2000 miken-@... wrote: original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=14262 > I think this is being a little naive. I doubt my voice would keep anyone out > of jail. But yes, I have been involved in the Harm Reduction movement. After > 27 years we still haven't been able to get the Rockerfeller drug laws > changed! And many voices more powerful than mine have been involved with > that. You can still protest as a matter of principle . Someone has to start an opposition. Do you always submit to doing something you are forced to do meekly without protest? You could also agitate within AA to get the practice stopped, and also sign a dozen slips in advance so the " poor soul " neednt turn up at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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