Re: Re: Slow extrication

April 16, 1999

Hi all,

LOL. Even the guy that wrote the small book hates it. So much for

leaders. Currently RR is groupless, so it's a pretty hard group to lead.

Trimpey disavows all recovery group. I only bring this up, because,

well, he wrote the small book.

sean

March 16, 2000

I know it's totally off the subject, but my favorite lyric has always

been;

" I'm so happy I could die,

She said 'Drop dead' and left with another guy "

Elvis Costello

================

Jim Hankins wrote:

>

> -> I'm free .... I'm free

> > and freedom tastes of reality

> > -The WHO, Tommy

> > GPdA

> >

> > -GP

> , thanks for the classical reference. A couple others:

April 12, 2000

Hi Judith,

Met a guy last night who had been in AA for years (he was no

longer) and he appeared to be unaffected by the experience.

I later found out that he never did the steps or attmepted to

" work " the program at all. He just attended socially.

As with you, my attempt to work this program did me more harm

than good. Twisted me up pretty good.

It's good to be free.

Sue

>

>Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

>To: 12-step-freeegroups

>Subject: Re: Slow extrication

>Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 12:45:07 -0000

>

>It's always encouraging to hear about someone who trusts their

>reaction to AA. I think it was Apple who said that AA works best for

>people who use temporarily it to get sober, then walk away without

>making the lifelong commitment to the entire AA belief system.

>Attempting to " work a program " was harmful for me. Then for many

>years I didn't address that harm, because I felt like a failure.

>About a year ago, I found this list and a few others, bought a few

>books, and started finding people like me who had fared badly in AA.

>It's made a big, positive difference for me.

>

>Best of luck,

>Judith

>

> > I entered AA on 27 January 2000. I wanted to stop drinking. Now

>I

> > am labeled insane, told to keep it simple stupid, and all such

>other

> > nonsense.

> >

> > Thank god for Apple's website.

> >

> > The only thing that hasn't kept me from saying a hearty " Fu*k you "

>to

> > the entire program is that there are 2 people I really care about

>and

> > enjoy spending time with who are in " the program. "

> >

> > As for the rest of them - they consider mt a blasphemer since I now

> > introduce myself as an " ex-drinker " who doesn't need 12 steps to

>stop

> > drinking.

> >

> > Thank god for aadeprogramming.com, RR, MM and this group.

> >

> > No more cults - no more mind control. Soon I hope to be free at

> > last, free at last, thank goodness all mighty free at last!

> >

>

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April 13, 2000

Man you guys are too much! Can't have it both ways. I was told that the

reason there are not many Smart meetings or RR meetings is because the

members got well and went on with their lives.

Well it is true in the fellowship too! Many, Many, people for various

reason stop coming after 10 years. I guess they have the same rights as

members of RR. Although Trimphey is so bitter and egotistical that I'm

sure he stays around just to bad mouth what he couldn't get.

That grape is suuuure sour!!!!!

paul

April 13, 2000

At 18:34 13/04/00 -0400, you wrote:

>Man you guys are too much! Can't have it both ways. I was told that the

>reason there are not many Smart meetings or RR meetings is because the

>members got well and went on with their lives.

So the AA members who say if you stop coming to meetings you will drink and

die an alcoholic death are lying then? You can't have it both ways. Either

AA is a crock and lies to people, or it doesn't. Here's a clue- it lies to

people.

Joe B.

April 13, 2000

Doesn't AA tell it's victims that to leave AA will lead alcoholics to

J,I and eventual death?

According to you some people in AA get better and leave AA.

The belief proselytized by 12 steppers that leaving XA will lead to

J, I or death is far more common.

Which do you believe?

Take you pick you can't have it both ways. Your argument not mine.

More likely the reason there are so few Smart or RR meetings is that

damn near most of the available meeting places are taken up by 12

Step meetings and all those newcomers that never seem to stick around

past a year.

Re: Re: Slow extrication

Man you guys are too much! Can't have it both ways. I was told that

the

reason there are not many Smart meetings or RR meetings is because

the

members got well and went on with their lives.

Well it is true in the fellowship too! Many, Many, people for various

reason stop coming after 10 years. I guess they have the same rights

as

members of RR. Although Trimphey is so bitter and egotistical that

I'm

sure he stays around just to bad mouth what he couldn't get.

That grape is suuuure sour!!!!!

paul

April 13, 2000

im not in RR, but i do know this much. RR doesn't say anyone has to

go to a meeting ever to learn to be sober. nor

will Jack or anyone in RR suggest that to leave them you will face

jails , institutions or death as scare tactic to retain

members. jack doesn't proclaim that people who don't see his way are

incapable of being honest with themselves or

those who don't follow his program are doomed to drinking as bill

wilson has.

those in AA who leave after 10 years have been taught to fear their

own thinking and motivations as being

inherently diseased and untrustworthy without AA's " program " . i feel

sorry for them, they need not have been

subjected to such nonsense and abuse to learn self responsibility and

self respect.. nor need they have been

psychologically imprisoned to the " rooms " by fear of relapse due to

Bill wilson belief system and masochistic

teachings. ten years to learn to be self sufficient, self respecting

and responsible? howsad.

actually AA doesnt teach any of those things, really breaks those

down actually. so theose people leave probaby

picked those skills up on thier own outside of AA. probably would

haev doen so sooner too, if they hadnt been

exposed to Bills wilsons oxford group nuerosis.

dave

> Man you guys are too much! Can't have it both ways. I was told

that the

> reason there are not many Smart meetings or RR meetings is because

the

> members got well and went on with their lives.

>

> Well it is true in the fellowship too! Many, Many, people for

various

> reason stop coming after 10 years. I guess they have the same

rights as

> members of RR. Although Trimphey is so bitter and egotistical that

I'm

> sure he stays around just to bad mouth what he couldn't get.

>

> That grape is suuuure sour!!!!!

>

> paul

April 13, 2000

Holy sh*t, ten years is an awfully long time to wait to get

on with one's life. Why?

Exactly what was it that Trimphey couldn't get? Brainwashed?

Sue

>

>Man you guys are too much! Can't have it both ways. I was told that the

>reason there are not many Smart meetings or RR meetings is because the

>members got well and went on with their lives.

>

>Well it is true in the fellowship too! Many, Many, people for various

>reason stop coming after 10 years. I guess they have the same rights as

>members of RR. Although Trimphey is so bitter and egotistical that I'm

>sure he stays around just to bad mouth what he couldn't get.

>

>That grape is suuuure sour!!!!!

>

>paul

>

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April 13, 2000

If AA works for you or others, great. It did not work for me.

> Man you guys are too much! Can't have it both ways. I was told

that the

> reason there are not many Smart meetings or RR meetings is because

the

> members got well and went on with their lives.

>

> Well it is true in the fellowship too! Many, Many, people for

various

> reason stop coming after 10 years. I guess they have the same

rights as

> members of RR. Although Trimphey is so bitter and egotistical that

I'm

> sure he stays around just to bad mouth what he couldn't get.

>

> That grape is suuuure sour!!!!!

>

> paul

April 13, 2000

Severin, severin -- do you get your email moniker from a Velvet

Underground song?

I'm a little tired, but OK. Let's allow you this one. Then per your

reasoning, you take RR for five hundred.

RR is right, RR works for some, and some of the some (or even most of

the some) move on. That's why you don't see so many RRs hanging

around in RR meetings. They don't need the meetings.

same same for AA!!!

works for some, and they move on too.

(That's the thing, sorta, right?)

So, next meeting, being an honest program, You, severin, stand up and

share about what you just realized.

" Hi, my name€ '²s Severing, I'm an alcoholic.

I want to share that AA is not the only program that works for

drinkers. There€ '²s group called Rational Recover, and SMART and

Moderation Management. They also work. I checked out the

information and some very respectable scientists and organizations

confirm that these alternatives to AA also work.

As for AA, some bad news is that our program works for only about 5%

of the total that stay, others slip away against our advice but we

still count them as people we helped. The vast majority continue to

have problems.

well, thanks for letting me share this. You newcomewrs, come over

and talk to me if you want some info on AA or other groups,

especially those of you who want to learn how to control your

drinking and live happily without a lifetime of meetings. Even

though I'm not one of them, and not everybody is (in or out of AA) I

did get a number you can call. Because I'm honest, I let people know

the whole story ... "

If you're not willing to do that Severin, then ask yourself why. Te

more honest you are in the answer the more you will grow as a moral

and spiritual person.

-GPdA

> Man you guys are too much! Can't have it both ways. I was told

that the

> reason there are not many Smart meetings or RR meetings is because

the

> members got well and went on with their lives.

>

> Well it is true in the fellowship too! Many, Many, people for

various

> reason stop coming after 10 years. I guess they have the same

rights as

> members of RR. Although Trimphey is so bitter and egotistical that

I'm

> sure he stays around just to bad mouth what he couldn't get.

>

> That grape is suuuure sour!!!!!

>

> paul

April 14, 2000

They do not have the same rights within AA. Within AA there are

rights of that system. There is no right to your own thoughts. There

is no right to question one with longer sobriety than the questioner.

There is no right to criticism of AA or it's program.Ther is no right

to leave without condemnation of that choice by the body. There is no

right to leave freely with little recrimination. It is not there.

What is there is a fairly large grouping of people caught in a

cultish like belief system that is wholly driven on by fear. The

slave to follow the belief system is driven by the fear of the

consequences delivered to the newcomer to AA. It is one big bloody

mess trying to pass itself off as a healthy organisation by claiming

sucesses and life enhancing properties that it does not have. It does

not encourage the human being to live it encourages it to live in

fear with a smile on its face. Ther is an abuse that is perpetrated

upon necomers to Aa that will impact upon them for a long long time.

Effects of a destructive psychological nature.

> Man you guys are too much! Can't have it both ways. I was told

that the

> reason there are not many Smart meetings or RR meetings is because

the

> members got well and went on with their lives.

>

> Well it is true in the fellowship too! Many, Many, people for

various

> reason stop coming after 10 years. I guess they have the same

rights as

> members of RR. Although Trimphey is so bitter and egotistical that

I'm

> sure he stays around just to bad mouth what he couldn't get.

>

> That grape is suuuure sour!!!!!

>

> paul

April 14, 2000

,

This is a good post!! However, I could never see any AA member ever

saying this. I was, in my 2 1/2 months as a " member " (I attended

about 200 meetings in that period) so thoroughly indoctrinated that I

believed that AA was the only thing that worked. Then I found

Apple's website and started reading some non-AA literature. Boy, was

I wrong (consequently, so were they).

Funny thing is, I stayed sober about 12 days during my " membership, "

and the remainder of the time I would drink six beers a night and

wake up with immense guilt hangovers. I was depressed and despondent

and my family noticed changes in my mood and my behavior, so did my

therapist.

" We don't want to hear about slips - you are in the problem - not the

solution - I was told by the 'old timers' " " You aren't working the

steps properly, get down on your knees and pray. " More guilt. One

day my sponsor found out from another AA'er I told (in confidence)

about one of my slips, and he spoke to me as if I were five years old

(so much for 'anonymity'). More guilt and shame.

I recently stopped going to AA and I have cut back from to six beers

per day to 3, with the eventual goal to abstain completely. I was

abstinent for three years until my marriage broke last October, and I

started drinking 6 packs.

I figured I had better get into AA to prevent the cycle from getting

worse. It simply didn't work. Firstly, I don't smoke, and the

smoking was horrible. There were only 3 of us in small rooms of 35+

that didn't smoke. To go to " non-smokers " everyday I would have to

drive miles and miles (guess I wasn't willing to go to any length).

Anyway, after I left I started exercising again, picked up some old

hobbies, communicate with non-AA'ers (none of my friends pre-AA drank

anyway), and I am " recovering " from a pretty crummy experiment in

mind-control.

Good luck to everyone, no matter what their goals may be, whether

they have a program or not.

I can say with a clear conscience that I certainly do not have, nor

will I ever have, any more 12 step programs in my life.

> > Man you guys are too much! Can't have it both ways. I was told

> that the

> > reason there are not many Smart meetings or RR meetings is

because

> the

> > members got well and went on with their lives.

> >

> > Well it is true in the fellowship too! Many, Many, people for

> various

> > reason stop coming after 10 years. I guess they have the same

> rights as

> > members of RR. Although Trimphey is so bitter and egotistical

that

> I'm

> > sure he stays around just to bad mouth what he couldn't get.

> >

> > That grape is suuuure sour!!!!!

> >

> > paul

April 14, 2000

Vic,

How in the world can anyone criticize AA, after all, God himself

inspired it through 'ol Bill W. It must work. It has to work. It

just has to!!!!!!!! The Big Book was " divinely inspired " was it

not??? Heck, I heard one woman say she didn't need church anymore

because AA was her church - that was where she found " God as she

understood him. "

Uh, funny, it didn't work for me.

I don't mean to rail on AA - if it works for some great - keep going

back - it just didn't work for me.

> > Man you guys are too much! Can't have it both ways. I was told

> that the

> > reason there are not many Smart meetings or RR meetings is

because

> the

> > members got well and went on with their lives.

> >

> > Well it is true in the fellowship too! Many, Many, people for

> various

> > reason stop coming after 10 years. I guess they have the same

> rights as

> > members of RR. Although Trimphey is so bitter and egotistical

that

> I'm

> > sure he stays around just to bad mouth what he couldn't get.

> >

> > That grape is suuuure sour!!!!!

> >

> > paul

April 14, 2000

You talk as if AA speaks with one voice.

We do not have a leader like the guy who wrote the small book.

paul

At 18:34 13/04/00 -0400, you wrote:

>Man you guys are too much! Can't have it both ways. I was told that the

>reason there are not many Smart meetings or RR meetings is because the

>members got well and went on with their lives.

So the AA members who say if you stop coming to meetings you will drink and

die an alcoholic death are lying then? You can't have it both ways. Either

AA is a crock and lies to people, or it doesn't. Here's a clue- it lies to

people.

Joe B.

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April 14, 2000

Well if the probem is that XAers have every space on the planet that

could possibly be used as a meeting place, then they could use their

homes to hold meetings.

I'f noone is wiling to open up their homes, i'm sure that they can

figure something out using a little Ratinal thught.

paul

Doesn't AA tell it's victims that to leave AA will lead alcoholics to

J,I and eventual death?

According to you some people in AA get better and leave AA.

The belief proselytized by 12 steppers that leaving XA will lead to

J, I or death is far more common.

Which do you believe?

Take you pick you can't have it both ways. Your argument not mine.

More likely the reason there are so few Smart or RR meetings is that

damn near most of the available meeting places are taken up by 12

Step meetings and all those newcomers that never seem to stick around

past a year.

Re: Re: Slow extrication

Man you guys are too much! Can't have it both ways. I was told that

the

reason there are not many Smart meetings or RR meetings is because

the

members got well and went on with their lives.

Well it is true in the fellowship too! Many, Many, people for various

reason stop coming after 10 years. I guess they have the same rights

as

members of RR. Although Trimphey is so bitter and egotistical that

I'm

sure he stays around just to bad mouth what he couldn't get.

That grape is suuuure sour!!!!!

paul

------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Time-limited offer. Enter today at:

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April 14, 2000

At 01:52 14/04/00 +0000, you wrote:

>If AA works for you or others, great. It did not work for me.

>

Remember that AA is supposed to make these people " happy, joyous and free " ,

and to assist them to " stop playing God " . And they have a tradition of

" attraction rather than promotion " . I would think any intelligent analysis

of this set of ideals would soon show that attacking AA's critics is not

supposed to happen! They are supposed to be grateful for the criticisms,

actually. I don't think the behaviour of our stepper visitors here quite

qualifies, somehow. By so many of their own standards, AA doesn't work.

Joe B.

April 14, 2000

At 10:13 14/04/00 -0400, you wrote:

>You talk as if AA speaks with one voice.

>

>We do not have a leader like the guy who wrote the small book.

>

>paul

You do have a leader- and like many religions you even have a dead leader,

whose immortal words you read out in meetings, to sponsees, and quote at

the rest of us as if they meant something. Ironically it seems as if in AA,

a dead leader is just as good as a live one. And you can see why this is.

No need to think about things any more- just refer back to something Bill

wrote in the thirties and imagine all the answers, even for the next

millennium, are there. Except of course for when he says something that

doesn't fit with the current doctrine, like listening to AA's critics!

Incredible.

As for " talking as if AA speaks with one voice " - well in practice most of

the abuses and twisting of reality that AA perpetrates are done in the

spirit of, er " unity " , aren't they.

It looks as if other than repeating the official position, you don't really

know much about your own program.

Joe B.

April 14, 2000