Guest guest Posted March 17, 2000 Report Share Posted March 17, 2000 Sue. I know exactly what you mean. In a similar vein, I needed to be on anti-depressants for awhile..and MAN did I have an incredibly hard time taking them. Same thing with any medication for ANY reason..especially if I could " see the part I played in it " . What this all translated as is I was..still am in many ways..afraid to be a human being...and also didnt have ANY confidence in my internal abilities to set my life right. I like telling this story: When an MD prescribed anti-depressant meds for me many years ago when i was really still accepting the 12 step ideas, I went to an AA meeting like a good AA'er. I was scared as hell about the meds so I told this crusty oldtimer looking guy sitting right across from me about it, that an MD told me i was " profoundly depressed " and " needed anti-depressants " . He looked straight at me while: smoking a cigarette (nicotine), drinking a cup of black coffee (caffeine) with a honker of a piece of someone's b-day cake in front of him (sugar), and said to me, " Come back and talk to me when you're off drugs! " . I quoted him from an AA booklet written by Bill , " No AA'er plays doctor " . ee looked freaked and turned away. Even then I guess I was interested in the TRUTH. Took a really really long time and incredible pain and agony ( and medication at that time) to get me to take action of the ideas inside me though. guadman " sue styd " wrote: original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=13518 > After 14 months of abstinence, I recently tried a moderation > drinking experiment on myself. > While on vacation, I allowed myself a " tropical drink " every now > and then. Never more than 3 drinks in a row. > This proved to be a wonderful experience for me, because it was > NO FUN. Pulling the reigns in on a couple of drinks is just not > worth the trouble. The buzz was not a fun place to be. Found > myself wanting to just be sober again. > If I had still been in AA this could have actually been a life > threatening thing here. With the disease theory, I might have > hit those shots of tequila that the rest of the gang were > drinking. After all, I couldn't help it, right? > Instead, I now realize that I just really don't care about a > couple of drinks anymore. Really don't need 'em. > I needed to find this out...in order to move on. Yet AA > could have done some real harm after this experience. Once again, > I'm glad to be outta there. > > Sue > > > > >Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups > >To: 12-step-freeeGroups > >Subject: Re: Anti/Pro > >Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 23:00:53 -0800 > > > > > > " wally t. " wrote: > > > > > It's common sense that advertising the disease theory causes people > >to 'lose > > > control' of their drinking. > > > >Jim here. There was a time when I unquestioning believed the disease > >theory because I read about it in Ann Landers and Dear Abby -- the > >ultimate sources of sane advice. I was a believer before I took my > >first drink. First time I got drunk I remember thinking " I must be an > >alcoholic because I'm having so much fun. > > > >One time, during a 14-year stretch when I wasn't drinking (but also > >wasn't in AA), Tommy LaSorda was on the Larry King radio show and > >somehow they got to talking about alcoholism. Lasorda said he didn't > >believe it was a disease, that it was a lack of character or discipline > >or something. > > > >Boy, I thought, Tommy's the world's biggest buffoon! Everybody knew it > >was a disease! He was just clinging to the old-fashioned bigoted > >notions about addiction! > > > >But now I have to wonder if believing I had some kind of disease might > >have made me think that it was worthless to try to control my drinking > >and doping. > >Like, if I have the disease, I'm " fated " to be an addict and it won't > >do any good to try to moderate my using and drinking. > > > >If this makes it sound like I'm blaming the " disease " advocates for > >making me a drunk and junky, I'm not. I take full responsibility for my > >actions, but I also wonder how the disease theory affected me. > > > >Of course, it's all academic to me because I'd be a total moron to try > >to indulge in " controlled " heroin use. The only way that's gonna happen > >is if I'm on a distant island all by myself and someone drops me one > >dose a week by parachute. At times I think I might be a moderate > >drinker one day, but I'd probably worry so much that it'd spoil the fun > >anyway. > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 17, 2000 Report Share Posted March 17, 2000 Sue, after reading your post I wanted you to know that I too have decided to free myself a little more and experiment. After being abstinent for 18 years, I had a small glass of Grand Marnier on New Year's Eve. Kind of a reversal on my " Sobriety Date " . I celebrated my freedom for this century. And now when I'm out for dinner or in a social setting, I may have a glass of wine or maybe a cup of coffee. I am very picky about what I drink, because I want to try something different every time. I guess the point I am trying to make is that it has become time for me to be a human being and stop trying to be " perfect " or a " saint " and " free of character DEFECTS " I really believe now that some of the things about me that I think are Defects are endearing to others, and maybe to me as well, and not necessarily something I want to RID myself of. There is a little nagging guilt-thank you AA-but I refuse to surrender and beat myself for having made that decision. The time has come for me to be a human being with faults, imperfections and convolutions and I want to learn to accept myself on less stringent terms. Good luck to you and everyone. " guadman " wrote: original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=13520 > Sue. > > I know exactly what you mean. > > In a similar vein, I needed to be on anti-depressants for awhile..and > MAN did I have an incredibly hard time taking them. Same thing with any > medication for ANY reason..especially if I could " see the part I played > in it " . > What this all translated as is I was..still am in many ways..afraid to > be a human being...and also didnt have ANY confidence in my internal > abilities to set my life right. > > I like telling this story: > When an MD prescribed anti-depressant meds for me many years ago when i > was really still accepting the 12 step ideas, I went to an AA meeting > like a good AA'er. > I was scared as hell about the meds so I told this crusty oldtimer > looking guy sitting right across from me about it, that an MD told me i > was " profoundly depressed " and " needed anti-depressants " . > He looked straight at me while: smoking a cigarette (nicotine), > drinking a cup of black coffee (caffeine) with a honker of a piece of > someone's b-day cake in front of him (sugar), and said to me, " Come > back and talk to me when you're off drugs! " . > > I quoted him from an AA booklet written by Bill , " No AA'er plays > doctor " . > ee looked freaked and turned away. > Even then I guess I was interested in the TRUTH. > Took a really really long time and incredible pain and agony ( and > medication at that time) to get me to take action of the ideas inside > me though. > > guadman > > > " sue styd " wrote: > original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=135 18 > > After 14 months of abstinence, I recently tried a moderation > > drinking experiment on myself. > > While on vacation, I allowed myself a " tropical drink " every now > > and then. Never more than 3 drinks in a row. > > This proved to be a wonderful experience for me, because it was > > NO FUN. Pulling the reigns in on a couple of drinks is just not > > worth the trouble. The buzz was not a fun place to be. Found > > myself wanting to just be sober again. > > If I had still been in AA this could have actually been a life > > threatening thing here. With the disease theory, I might have > > hit those shots of tequila that the rest of the gang were > > drinking. After all, I couldn't help it, right? > > Instead, I now realize that I just really don't care about a > > couple of drinks anymore. Really don't need 'em. > > I needed to find this out...in order to move on. Yet AA > > could have done some real harm after this experience. Once again, > > I'm glad to be outta there. > > > > Sue > > > > > > > >Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups > > >To: 12-step-freeeGroups > > >Subject: Re: Anti/Pro > > >Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 23:00:53 -0800 > > > > > > > > > " wally t. " wrote: > > > > > > > It's common sense that advertising the disease theory causes > people > > >to 'lose > > > > control' of their drinking. > > > > > >Jim here. There was a time when I unquestioning believed the disease > > >theory because I read about it in Ann Landers and Dear Abby -- the > > >ultimate sources of sane advice. I was a believer before I took my > > >first drink. First time I got drunk I remember thinking " I must be an > > >alcoholic because I'm having so much fun. > > > > > >One time, during a 14-year stretch when I wasn't drinking (but also > > >wasn't in AA), Tommy LaSorda was on the Larry King radio show and > > >somehow they got to talking about alcoholism. Lasorda said he didn't > > >believe it was a disease, that it was a lack of character or > discipline > > >or something. > > > > > >Boy, I thought, Tommy's the world's biggest buffoon! Everybody knew > it > > >was a disease! He was just clinging to the old-fashioned bigoted > > >notions about addiction! > > > > > >But now I have to wonder if believing I had some kind of disease > might > > >have made me think that it was worthless to try to control my > drinking > > >and doping. > > >Like, if I have the disease, I'm " fated " to be an addict and it won't > > >do any good to try to moderate my using and drinking. > > > > > >If this makes it sound like I'm blaming the " disease " advocates for > > >making me a drunk and junky, I'm not. I take full responsibility for > my > > >actions, but I also wonder how the disease theory affected me. > > > > > >Of course, it's all academic to me because I'd be a total moron to > try > > >to indulge in " controlled " heroin use. The only way that's gonna > happen > > >is if I'm on a distant island all by myself and someone drops me one > > >dose a week by parachute. At times I think I might be a moderate > > >drinker one day, but I'd probably worry so much that it'd spoil the > fun > > >anyway. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 17, 2000 Report Share Posted March 17, 2000 Hi: please se comments at *** " sue styd " wrote: original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=13518 > After 14 months of abstinence, I recently tried a moderation > drinking experiment on myself. > While on vacation, I allowed myself a " tropical drink " every now > and then. Never more than 3 drinks in a row. > This proved to be a wonderful experience for me, because it was > NO FUN. Pulling the reigns in on a couple of drinks is just not > worth the trouble. The buzz was not a fun place to be. Found > myself wanting to just be sober again. *** This is an incorrect use of the word " sober " which support the tunnel reality of AA. Webster's says: " 1 a : sparing in the use of food and drink : ABSTEMIOUS b : not addicted to intoxicating drink c : not drunk 2 : marked by sedate or gravely or earnestly thoughtful character or demeanor 3 : UNHURRIED, CALM 4 : marked by temperance, moderation, or seriousness 5 : subdued in tone or color 6 : showing no excessive or extreme qualities of fancy, emotion, or prejudice " This really is much closer in meaning to moderation than absolute abstinence. I wonder why, when people know this is the correct use of the word sober, they somehow cannot grasp that fact or that they continue to twist their language. Not to say that this is what you are doing in this instance. > If I had still been in AA this could have actually been a life > threatening thing here. With the disease theory, I might have > hit those shots of tequila that the rest of the gang were > drinking. After all, I couldn't help it, right? > Instead, I now realize that I just really don't care about a > couple of drinks anymore. Really don't need 'em. *** This makes sense, although with everything put into our heads by AA it is probably very difficult to relax enough to enjoy alcohol. > I needed to find this out...in order to move on. Yet AA > could have done some real harm after this experience. Once again, > I'm glad to be outta there. *** Right, and if and when you ever feel like a glass of champagne (or 3) you know you can stop before drunkenness and Jail; you already did it. - > > Sue > > > > >Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups > >To: 12-step-freeeGroups > >Subject: Re: Anti/Pro > >Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 23:00:53 -0800 > > > > > > " wally t. " wrote: > > > > > It's common sense that advertising the disease theory causes people > >to 'lose > > > control' of their drinking. > > > >Jim here. There was a time when I unquestioning believed the disease > >theory because I read about it in Ann Landers and Dear Abby -- the > >ultimate sources of sane advice. I was a believer before I took my > >first drink. First time I got drunk I remember thinking " I must be an > >alcoholic because I'm having so much fun. > > > >One time, during a 14-year stretch when I wasn't drinking (but also > >wasn't in AA), Tommy LaSorda was on the Larry King radio show and > >somehow they got to talking about alcoholism. Lasorda said he didn't > >believe it was a disease, that it was a lack of character or discipline > >or something. > > > >Boy, I thought, Tommy's the world's biggest buffoon! Everybody knew it > >was a disease! He was just clinging to the old-fashioned bigoted > >notions about addiction! > > > >But now I have to wonder if believing I had some kind of disease might > >have made me think that it was worthless to try to control my drinking > >and doping. > >Like, if I have the disease, I'm " fated " to be an addict and it won't > >do any good to try to moderate my using and drinking. > > > >If this makes it sound like I'm blaming the " disease " advocates for > >making me a drunk and junky, I'm not. I take full responsibility for my > >actions, but I also wonder how the disease theory affected me. > > > >Of course, it's all academic to me because I'd be a total moron to try > >to indulge in " controlled " heroin use. The only way that's gonna happen > >is if I'm on a distant island all by myself and someone drops me one > >dose a week by parachute. At times I think I might be a moderate > >drinker one day, but I'd probably worry so much that it'd spoil the fun > >anyway. > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 17, 2000 Report Share Posted March 17, 2000 Hi guadman. You wrote in response to Sue: " Sue. I know exactly what you mean. In a similar vein, I needed to be on anti-depressants for awhile..and MAN did I have an incredibly hard time taking them. Same thing with any medication for ANY reason..especially if I could " see the part I played in it " . What this all translated as is I was..still am in many ways..afraid to be a human being...and also didnt have ANY confidence in my internal abilities to set my life right. " The first thing is I can't see any relation to Sue's mail at all, but you say 'I know excactly what you mean'. Secondly you are describing it a pain to take anti-depressants when you could see the part you played in your depression. According to your mail this took place many years ago. What kind of anti- depressant was described? During a depression it's common to think that you are guilty, and that your misarable state is deserved because you simply are a menace to humanity, but this conviction fades with the depression. But after the depression, as you must be by know, you don't think like this. So the conclusion must be, that either weren't you depressed in the first place, or you are still depressed. Anyway, it doesn't make sense to me. And I still can't see the relation to Sue's post. But she might? She informed about her reactions to drinking, and she didn't get a full blown relapse, but just wanted to sober up. This of course is interesting because it contradicts AA dogma, but what has this got to do with your alleged depression caused by your own actions? Bjørn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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