Guest guest Posted September 19, 2004 Report Share Posted September 19, 2004 My son Ken had a somewhat similar thing happen to him. He faced losing his medical insurance and the cost of a new policy was out of reach. He was told if he would spend 30 days in a nursing home – Medicare would be available to him free of charge. We didn’t do it; we felt cheating would have been a heavier burden than the insurance premium we are now paying. The question I would ask of your brother is; can he be happy knowing he went into the hospital when he didn’t need to be there in order to cheat the system? Or will it always haunt him? Can he live with the possibility that he may have caused someone else harm? He has to answer these questions for himself because he is the one who has to live with the consequences of his actions. Can’t comment on going to China, we wouldn’t do it. Have you talked to the doctors about cancer? They might have some facts and figures that would help relieve your fears. -Barb in Texas - Son Ken (30) UC 91 & PSC 99 -----Original Message----- From: Mark I wanted to get the imput of the group on a sticky ethical situation. my brother is listed his doctor told him - somwtimes the transplant team is able to get PSC patients special exceptions and a bump in meld to 30. The catch: he must be in the hospital at least 8 times for a week or more at a time over the course of 12 months to qualify Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 19, 2004 Report Share Posted September 19, 2004 My son Ken had a somewhat similar thing happen to him. He faced losing his medical insurance and the cost of a new policy was out of reach. He was told if he would spend 30 days in a nursing home – Medicare would be available to him free of charge. We didn’t do it; we felt cheating would have been a heavier burden than the insurance premium we are now paying. The question I would ask of your brother is; can he be happy knowing he went into the hospital when he didn’t need to be there in order to cheat the system? Or will it always haunt him? Can he live with the possibility that he may have caused someone else harm? He has to answer these questions for himself because he is the one who has to live with the consequences of his actions. Can’t comment on going to China, we wouldn’t do it. Have you talked to the doctors about cancer? They might have some facts and figures that would help relieve your fears. -Barb in Texas - Son Ken (30) UC 91 & PSC 99 -----Original Message----- From: Mark I wanted to get the imput of the group on a sticky ethical situation. my brother is listed his doctor told him - somwtimes the transplant team is able to get PSC patients special exceptions and a bump in meld to 30. The catch: he must be in the hospital at least 8 times for a week or more at a time over the course of 12 months to qualify Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 19, 2004 Report Share Posted September 19, 2004 Barb, I didn't mean to imply that we would consider faking cholangitis attacks to get a liver. I do believe that would constitute cutting in line ahead of others who are more in need and that would be wrong. The ethical question for me is only going to China knowing how they precure organs. The whole idea came from www.chinatransplants.com. The story posted there is very enlightening. RE: Ethical S-Storm My son Ken had a somewhat similar thing happen to him. He faced losing his medical insurance and the cost of a new policy was out of reach. He was told if he would spend 30 days in a nursing home Medicare would be available to him free of charge. We didnt do it; we felt cheating would have been a heavier burden than the insurance premium we are now paying. The question I would ask of your brother is; can he be happy knowing he went into the hospital when he didnt need to be there in order to cheat the system? Or will it always haunt him? Can he live with the possibility that he may have caused someone else harm? He has to answer these questions for himself because he is the one who has to live with the consequences of his actions. Cant comment on going to China, we wouldnt do it. Have you talked to the doctors about cancer? They might have some facts and figures that would help relieve your fears. -Barb in Texas - Son Ken (30) UC 91 & PSC 99 -----Original Message----- From: Mark I wanted to get the imput of the group on a sticky ethical situation. my brother is listed his doctor told him - somwtimes the transplant team is able to get PSC patients special exceptions and a bump in meld to 30. The catch: he must be in the hospital at least 8 times for a week or more at a time over the course of 12 months to qualify Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 19, 2004 Report Share Posted September 19, 2004 Barb, I didn't mean to imply that we would consider faking cholangitis attacks to get a liver. I do believe that would constitute cutting in line ahead of others who are more in need and that would be wrong. The ethical question for me is only going to China knowing how they precure organs. The whole idea came from www.chinatransplants.com. The story posted there is very enlightening. RE: Ethical S-Storm My son Ken had a somewhat similar thing happen to him. He faced losing his medical insurance and the cost of a new policy was out of reach. He was told if he would spend 30 days in a nursing home Medicare would be available to him free of charge. We didnt do it; we felt cheating would have been a heavier burden than the insurance premium we are now paying. The question I would ask of your brother is; can he be happy knowing he went into the hospital when he didnt need to be there in order to cheat the system? Or will it always haunt him? Can he live with the possibility that he may have caused someone else harm? He has to answer these questions for himself because he is the one who has to live with the consequences of his actions. Cant comment on going to China, we wouldnt do it. Have you talked to the doctors about cancer? They might have some facts and figures that would help relieve your fears. -Barb in Texas - Son Ken (30) UC 91 & PSC 99 -----Original Message----- From: Mark I wanted to get the imput of the group on a sticky ethical situation. my brother is listed his doctor told him - somwtimes the transplant team is able to get PSC patients special exceptions and a bump in meld to 30. The catch: he must be in the hospital at least 8 times for a week or more at a time over the course of 12 months to qualify Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 19, 2004 Report Share Posted September 19, 2004 > The ethical question for me is only going to China knowing how they precure organs. Amnesty International claims that the Chinese government is performing more executions in order to expand its profitable organ trade. If there is any chance that this is true, there is no way that I would ever go to China for a transplant, even if the events at Tiananmen Square in 1989 had never happened. http://www.amnesty.org/ailib/intcam/china/china96/faq.htm - Gene A. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 19, 2004 Report Share Posted September 19, 2004 > The ethical question for me is only going to China knowing how they precure organs. Amnesty International claims that the Chinese government is performing more executions in order to expand its profitable organ trade. If there is any chance that this is true, there is no way that I would ever go to China for a transplant, even if the events at Tiananmen Square in 1989 had never happened. http://www.amnesty.org/ailib/intcam/china/china96/faq.htm - Gene A. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 19, 2004 Report Share Posted September 19, 2004 Mark, I'm curious - ethical considerations aside for the most part -- If your brother does get a transplant in China, who will be handling his care? What happens if there are complications? Who will be following up and providing his care once he returns to the states? How will the fact that he got his liver in China affect his ability to 1) communicate with doctors during the recovery process on site 2) Maintain understandable medical records 3) Transition to care upon returning home? I understand that waiting too long is scary since cancer looms big for all of us on some level...But, I can't think of something much scarier than placing my life in the hands of doctors half-way around the world with whom I may/may not have difficulty communicating. On the ethical side, if this liver is coming from a prisoner - is this person really " guilty " of said crime? Is this person a polictical prisoner or a violent offender (for real - not trumped up)? Remember, this is a country who has taken US citizens of Chinese dissent and charged them with treason while visiting the country and imprisoned them. I don't remember the couple's name, but they lived in the Washington, DC area. The wife was originally held, and the husband went over to try to bargain her release, and he was taken captive, too. (I hope I'm remembering this correctly...Some of the details might be off...) Their four-year-old child was left parentless for months. I never heard the conclusion to the story, but they weren't sure they'd ever get released, and might be sentenced harshly. I simply wouldn't trust this government to do the right thing by their prisoners or by me for that matter...Just my opinion. These are issues I'd want raised if I was considering such a huge decision. Like I've said in my previous posts, I won't fault anyone for doing anything that's legal to get what they need in order to live...I wish you both the best outcomes. Deb in VA AIH 1997, PSC 1998, UC 1999, Listed Ltx 2001, MELD 19 Here the ethical question: we are considering China for a transplant. We were told the wait there is 1-2 weeks. Yes the organ will come from an execution although we were told it is done at the option of the condemed with compensation to his/her family. > I look forward to hearing from the group on this one. > > Thanks to all in the group. > > Mark > Sent via Cingular Xpress Mail with Blackberry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 19, 2004 Report Share Posted September 19, 2004 Mark, It is a decision that only you and your brother can or should make. It is not allow by law in the USA. I feel that is a good law. What an option to give a prisoner. I know that finding suitable donor organs is almost impossible at times. It is hard to understand why someone we love has to go through this kind of a physical challenge. Sometimes the kindest thing we can do is let go. I know that is difficult as well as I have been there and done that. Life, death, and everything that goes on in-be-tween the ends of the eternal dichotomy is full of challenges. We sometimes want to find simple solutions. If one has the money why not go to China, or advertise on a bill board, or make a radio commercial? The answer is something that each individual must decide for himself. No one can make that decision for you. No amount of discussion can make the decision easier. Sooner or later the decision will be made. Sometimes death intervenes and the decision is taken out our hands. Sometimes we make the wrong decision. In the end we all will face death. I hope when I reach that portal into the enternities that I can go peacefully knowing that I am not causing any other being unnecessary pain or anguish. Mr. Itch (Rob) ________________________________________________________________ Get your name as your email address. Includes spam protection, 1GB storage, no ads and more Only $1.99/ month - visit http://www.mysite.com/name today! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 20, 2004 Report Share Posted September 20, 2004 When my husband was listed at the Kentucky transplant center we were told that they took into consideration the amount of times he was hospitalized for cholangitis attacks...but that never happened. When I took him to Cincinnati and they saw how many times he had been hospitalized for cholangitis attacks (EVERY MONTH for at least 8 days...once he got in he couldn't get back out...) they were concerned and they DID take that into consideration...his MELD score was high...but so was everyone elses at the Kentucky Transplant Center...so he was at the bottom of the ones who had been listed longer...it is all such a sticky situation...my husband never left the house for the last 1 1/2 years PRE transplant only to go to the hospital or doc...he threw up every day, spiked the fevers, didn't sleep...when he finally got his transplant his liver fell to pieces...I think in some diseases they need to take into consideration how many times a patient is hospitalized for a certain condition...unfortunately that isn't always the case... Re: Ethical S-Storm I wanted to get the imput of the group on a sticky ethical situation. Anyone who read my previous postings knows my position on transplants and who should have first crackat them. All of those who took the time to respond (and I appreciate your imput) disagreed with me. Here is another matter for discusion. As I mentioned before my brother is listed here in LA, CA. He met with his doctor who told him that their was good news - somwtimes the transplant team is able to get PSC patients special exceptions and a bump in meld to 30. The catch: he must be in the hospital at least 8 times for a week or more at a time over the course of 12 months to qualify (I'm sure the situation could vary somewhat but that is the senario the doc gave him). Here the ethical question: we are considering China for a transplant. We were told the wait there is 1-2 weeks. Yes the organ will come from an execution although we were told it is done at the option of the condemed with compensation to his/her family. My brother is about 160lbs formerly 200lbs, has portal hypertension, and vomits regularly after meals. I, as most of you know am deathly afraid of cancer and so I don't want him to wait. I know when/if its my turn I won't. I look forward to hearing from the group on this one. Thanks to all in the group. Mark Sent via Cingular Xpress Mail with Blackberry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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