Guest guest Posted March 23, 1999 Report Share Posted March 23, 1999 Gaudman, RR also says right up front that they are for abstinence, as does SOS. They do so without religious dogma or group think. Also, I think that it is important to remember that many of on this list are new to 12 step free life, or were deeply hurt by AA and need to vent and process that. Others, as you read, are living happy 12 step free lives. Also begin a very diverse list, there are those eon this list who are now drinking moderately. again, 12 step free, unlike AA is simply a place to vent, explore new ideas, process the 12 step experience. It is not a " way of life " like a religion. I vent, here, for example, and go on with my day. I seldom, if ever, talk with anyone about my 12 step experience. This is the place for that. As for the question of balance, I think that given the hundreds of 12 steps list on the net. I guess that the truth of 12 step free has set me free, and I don't need to begin every post with, " AA does have it's good points. " As SMART would say, it is irrational to think that AA is all bad. (There' s ome truth for ya'.) So anyway, it's time for me to get on with my " happy, joyous and 12 step free day. You know, I must be in a very good mood today. Thank you all for posting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 23, 1999 Report Share Posted March 23, 1999 Gaudman, RR also says right up front that they are for abstinence, as does SOS. They do so without religious dogma or group think. Also, I think that it is important to remember that many of on this list are new to 12 step free life, or were deeply hurt by AA and need to vent and process that. Others, as you read, are living happy 12 step free lives. Also begin a very diverse list, there are those eon this list who are now drinking moderately. again, 12 step free, unlike AA is simply a place to vent, explore new ideas, process the 12 step experience. It is not a " way of life " like a religion. I vent, here, for example, and go on with my day. I seldom, if ever, talk with anyone about my 12 step experience. This is the place for that. As for the question of balance, I think that given the hundreds of 12 steps list on the net. I guess that the truth of 12 step free has set me free, and I don't need to begin every post with, " AA does have it's good points. " As SMART would say, it is irrational to think that AA is all bad. (There' s ome truth for ya'.) So anyway, it's time for me to get on with my " happy, joyous and 12 step free day. You know, I must be in a very good mood today. Thank you all for posting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 16, 1999 Report Share Posted April 16, 1999 Hi Pete, My AA homegroup told me to keep my homosexuality a secret, and to edit my story to sound straight. My rehab told me the same thing. Then they said that I was sick as my secrets, and honesty was vital to staying sober. Huh?? Am I the only one who finds contradictions here? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 16, 1999 Report Share Posted April 16, 1999 , In my area, " telling your story " is essential to good sobriety, or so they would say. Most of my " story " happened in and around the NYC gay scene. Hustlers, after hour clubs, that kind of thing. I seldom drank or used at home, so not much " story " was left after editing. In rehab this was especially strange, during the " hotseat, " which was a requirement. There I was, days sober, inventing a straight friendly story. Oh well, at least I learned that I can invent a new life story on the spot, but that really was not supposed to be the point. As for the " they " thing, since when can you take a singular pronoun and make it plural, and still be correct. Anyway, I find that the places gay couples go for fun and the people they are friends with often make substitution weird. My partner and I, for example, belong to the Gen X Bears, and meet them to go to the village. While substitution is possible, it seems to me that it takes away from sharing the essence of a story when you make everything kind of generic. you know, we met hairy people and saw a movie..it's just not the same as..Mike and I met the bears for lunch and dish..you get the idea. After all, AAers are supposed to be " friends' " so why edit for the ears of friends. Anyway, welcome to 12 step free, nice to meet you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 16, 1999 Report Share Posted April 16, 1999 , In my area, " telling your story " is essential to good sobriety, or so they would say. Most of my " story " happened in and around the NYC gay scene. Hustlers, after hour clubs, that kind of thing. I seldom drank or used at home, so not much " story " was left after editing. In rehab this was especially strange, during the " hotseat, " which was a requirement. There I was, days sober, inventing a straight friendly story. Oh well, at least I learned that I can invent a new life story on the spot, but that really was not supposed to be the point. As for the " they " thing, since when can you take a singular pronoun and make it plural, and still be correct. Anyway, I find that the places gay couples go for fun and the people they are friends with often make substitution weird. My partner and I, for example, belong to the Gen X Bears, and meet them to go to the village. While substitution is possible, it seems to me that it takes away from sharing the essence of a story when you make everything kind of generic. you know, we met hairy people and saw a movie..it's just not the same as..Mike and I met the bears for lunch and dish..you get the idea. After all, AAers are supposed to be " friends' " so why edit for the ears of friends. Anyway, welcome to 12 step free, nice to meet you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 18, 1999 Report Share Posted April 18, 1999 Hi Jim, While the great majority of faiths are still homophobic, there has been a shift for the better. Many renegade Methodists and Presbyterian clergy are performing gay weddings, for example, and more and more congregations are becoming friendly to gays and lesbians in spite of the position of the majority of their leadership. The Episcopal church in my area is very welcoming for the most part. (Newark,NJ dioceses.) Of course the UUA ( Unitarian Universalist Assn.) has been the leader in this are. The Reformed and Reconstructionist Jews now allow gay marraige. My point? Slowly the gay, lesbian bi and transgender movement is faced with the same question as every other chemical dependent. Will " God " get " you sober. While I am very respectful of religion for example, I don't think that a " higher power " has much to do with sobriety. Not drinking is the best way to achieve abstinence, if that is your goal. As for Sodom and Gommorah, to mind the lesson is about being hospitable to strangers, which was an impotent value of the Biblical era, when it could make the difference between life and death. Gang rape of an angel, after all was not very hospitable. Rape is rape, regardless of the gende Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 21, 2000 Report Share Posted March 21, 2000 Thanks for your response, . For 15 years, I watched people in AA do exactly what your are describing and perpetuating guilt and shame in a downward spiral. If you do not stay *perfectly* clean, you have FAILED. And if you come back to AA after drinking, we will shame you with our words: " Better you than me " " Starting at the First Step all over again " ....and look down our noses at you...(YOU GOT DRUNK = YOU ARE BAD) I know of people who have committed suicide after trying to come back to AA, because they thought there was no where else to go. What a waste of some really wonderful people. Dead because they couldn't deal with the humiliation of admitting they got drunk. AA sucks-in so many ways. miken-@... wrote: original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=13768 > In a message dated 3/21/00 8:17:34 AM Eastern Standard Time, > wrose2@... writes: > > > I am > > working on shades of gray instead of black and white. Now, if I ever > > get drunk, I can be more gentle with myself and tell myself I will try > > not to do that again-and learn from the experience instead of beating > > the crap out of myself with guilt and shame! > > > > : > > Perhaps the biggest problem I have with AA is that members are taught that > " picking up " is the most devastating thing they can do, that once they pick > up they won't be able to stop, and that it is almost certain that they will > suffer horrendous consequences from their actions. > > Unfortunately, this attitude becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. I can't > count the times I have heard someone say, " Well since I had a drink and am > powerless over alcohol, there is no point in trying to stop the slide right > now. They have been so brainwashed that they have no control after picking > up, that it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy! > > From my own personal experience I know this is not true. Also, a segment of > the " treatment professionals " are moving away from this attitude also. In > spite of what a lot of people think, there are quite a few people in the > substance abuse field who disagrees with a lot of what goes on at 12 step > meetings. > > Hopefully one day, this idea of complete powerlessness will be negated. > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 21, 2000 Report Share Posted March 21, 2000 Thanks for your response, . For 15 years, I watched people in AA do exactly what your are describing and perpetuating guilt and shame in a downward spiral. If you do not stay *perfectly* clean, you have FAILED. And if you come back to AA after drinking, we will shame you with our words: " Better you than me " " Starting at the First Step all over again " ....and look down our noses at you...(YOU GOT DRUNK = YOU ARE BAD) I know of people who have committed suicide after trying to come back to AA, because they thought there was no where else to go. What a waste of some really wonderful people. Dead because they couldn't deal with the humiliation of admitting they got drunk. AA sucks-in so many ways. miken-@... wrote: original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=13768 > In a message dated 3/21/00 8:17:34 AM Eastern Standard Time, > wrose2@... writes: > > > I am > > working on shades of gray instead of black and white. Now, if I ever > > get drunk, I can be more gentle with myself and tell myself I will try > > not to do that again-and learn from the experience instead of beating > > the crap out of myself with guilt and shame! > > > > : > > Perhaps the biggest problem I have with AA is that members are taught that > " picking up " is the most devastating thing they can do, that once they pick > up they won't be able to stop, and that it is almost certain that they will > suffer horrendous consequences from their actions. > > Unfortunately, this attitude becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. I can't > count the times I have heard someone say, " Well since I had a drink and am > powerless over alcohol, there is no point in trying to stop the slide right > now. They have been so brainwashed that they have no control after picking > up, that it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy! > > From my own personal experience I know this is not true. Also, a segment of > the " treatment professionals " are moving away from this attitude also. In > spite of what a lot of people think, there are quite a few people in the > substance abuse field who disagrees with a lot of what goes on at 12 step > meetings. > > Hopefully one day, this idea of complete powerlessness will be negated. > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 21, 2000 Report Share Posted March 21, 2000 I think it really depends on the person, their situation and history, etc. In defense of AA that is one thing they are VERY upfront about...they are about ABSTINENCE. If someone really doesn't subscribe to THEIR idea of what alcoholism is..and what it takes to fix it...they really haven't any business remaining in there, unless they like it. I mean, it's a little like hanging around a barber shop and complaining to everyone in there that there isn't anything wrong with having long/uncut hair. I realize I keep repeating this: It's the TRUTH that sets us free. A guy some 2,000 years ago, said: " I say unto u, unless your righteusness exceeds that of the Pharisees, you will not enter into the kingdom of heaven. " It isn't enough to simply make note of and complain about the errors that happen in AA, or anywhere else for that matter. We really have to LIVE what we think of as what's really right. The easiest thing in the world, is to sit around and make note of what we think is wrong in the world and the people we see. I realize I am making speeches here, except I think this is SO incredibly important. guadman miken-@... wrote: original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=13768 > In a message dated 3/21/00 8:17:34 AM Eastern Standard Time, > wrose2@... writes: > > > I am > > working on shades of gray instead of black and white. Now, if I ever > > get drunk, I can be more gentle with myself and tell myself I will try > > not to do that again-and learn from the experience instead of beating > > the crap out of myself with guilt and shame! > > > > : > > Perhaps the biggest problem I have with AA is that members are taught that > " picking up " is the most devastating thing they can do, that once they pick > up they won't be able to stop, and that it is almost certain that they will > suffer horrendous consequences from their actions. > > Unfortunately, this attitude becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. I can't > count the times I have heard someone say, " Well since I had a drink and am > powerless over alcohol, there is no point in trying to stop the slide right > now. They have been so brainwashed that they have no control after picking > up, that it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy! > > From my own personal experience I know this is not true. Also, a segment of > the " treatment professionals " are moving away from this attitude also. In > spite of what a lot of people think, there are quite a few people in the > substance abuse field who disagrees with a lot of what goes on at 12 step > meetings. > > Hopefully one day, this idea of complete powerlessness will be negated. > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 23, 2000 Report Share Posted March 23, 2000 Hi Mike N. I've pasted this sentence from your first mail in this thread: Hopefully one day, this idea of complete powerlessness will be negated. The question is. Can AA renounce on the matter of complete powerlessness regarding ingestion of alcohol? I don't think so. AA can easily digest Gestalt therapy, behavioral therapy, meditation techniques, vulgar psychoanalysis, astrology, jungianism, systemic therapy, etc. I agree with Jack Trimpey, that in AA's digestive system anything can be used, and the rest will be spit out. As long as the disease concept is not questioned, AA not only can use other and often contradicting theories, they need them because they really don't have a functioning therapeutic system of their own. But if the question of powerlessness is questioned, they will be in deep shit. As you know, AA is a direct child of the Oxford Group Movement (OGM), and they functioned on four absolutes (and five steps). Three of the absolutes were: Absolute honesty! Absolute purity! Absolute love! and Absolute ??? (guess what). The problem with absolutes (except that they don't exist in the real world) is that they can't be modified without losing their relevance. Just think of the difference between absolute honesty and relative honesty. Or the difference between absolute purity and relative purity. It's like saying :" I'm a little bit pregnant". That doesn't make sense. Therefore AA will have to stick to their dogma of absolute powerlessness, as the expression "I'm a little bit powerless" doesn't make sense. AA can digest a lot of things, but this thing of powerlessness will make AA choke. It will be like saying : "Alcoholism is almost a disease." And what would that be?? Dear Mike N. As we all know by now you are lurking in the corner: Could you please elaborate on this interesting topic? Bjørn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 24, 2000 Report Share Posted March 24, 2000 Hi Guadman. I agree with , but until now I thought that my inability to get any sense from your mails was due to my lacking knowledge of american lingo. When you say that you understand someone I have great problems understanding what you actually are understanding, and when you disagree, I can't figure out what you're disagreeing about. If you otherwise are a sensible person, the only logic I can get out of this is that you are in great trouble, but don't want to tell nobody about it. Maybe you should just get out of the closet? We aren't that bad. Bjørn p.s. I looked 'gaud' up, and in Danish it's something used to decorate something else with. In Danish, to be decorated is the same as being drunk. But, that of course, is our lingo. B(j)orn again. (ups) Price wrote: > My Dear Mr. Gaudman: > > I think you have a few screws loose. > > Dude, you can't simply throw things back and make sense. > > If you want to debate you should respond to the issues raised and the > terms of the argument, their definition, the coherence, evidence, line > of reasoning, and so forth. Something, anything. > > and ... I think YOU'RE just like AA, You just changed Hats, uh, or > Neckties, so there! > -GPdA > > " guadman " guadma-@... wrote: > original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=13820 > > . > > > > To me, what you said, is simply a long-winded way of expressing that > > ideas contrary to what people like to say here will NOT be tolerated. > > Guess that " wide berth " thing apllies ONLY if it fits in with what you > > like to hear. > > > > By the criteria that you stated, you aren't even the teeniest bit > > different then any AA'er I have ever met. > > > > The man complaints I see here, and that I have, regarding AA involve > > harassment and even punishment for individual/free/questioning and > > thinking that goes against the stated AA rhetoric. > > > > What you seem to be saying is that, here also, there will be > > harrassment and even punishment " for individual/free/questioning and > > thinking that goes against " what you say is the " 12 step-free stated > > rheotoric " . > > > > I think that is quite simply, one huge crock of shyt. > > > > All you seem to have done, is change your coat and where you happen to > > hang your hat. > > > > guadman > > > > > > And, lying. > > > > > > " george price " gpric-@... wrote: > > original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=138 > 02 > > > Hmmmm. > > > > > > Not anti-AA or the highway, but rather: > > > > > > ways to address substance issues FREE of the 12 steps. > > > > > > No advocacy or recommendation of the 12-steps as a means of > addressing > > > substance or other life behavior problems. > > > > > > I also noticed that your quote from the intro was curiously > selective, > > > in that you omitted the key sentence containing the word " critical, " > > > > > > " Perhaps our most important function is to provide the first place > > > where many can dare be critical and not be accused by a " unanimous > > > majority " of groupers of suffering from one " defect of character " or > > > another for doing so. " > > > > > > Note this word: Critical > > > > > > When you write that our list's Anti-AA or the highway (seemingly) > > > position makes you " sick, " it does seem to me that you are getting > > > close to infringing on " ... our most important function ... " <see > > > above><repeat loop until comprehended> -- by 'accusing' people of > > > defects by implication; namely, not being open minded, as sick as > the > > > others, etc. > > > > > > In simpler terms, you're attacking people for being critical of AA > and > > > you're telling them that there's something wrong with them. > > > > > > seems like it, anyhow. > > > > > > BTW, no one is required to be critical or else. There are many > other > > > types of posts, Pro-RR, moderation successes and failures and > > > subsequent ponderings, therapies attempted, cats, birds, boats … " > > > > > > but for me -- This IS a place to be critical of AA. This is not a > > > place to defend AA. > > > > > > And by the intro `charter' -- This is a place where one can be > > critical > > > of AA without being attacked. > > > > > > This is also a place to suggest new and/or different approaches to > > > problems commonly faced by people who would otherwise turn to the > > > steps. > > > > > > Finally, this is a place for people to share information about the > > > 12-step " religion " with an eye toward assisting people " loved ones " > > who > > > are " trapped " in the Groups. That's trapped. > > > > > > I wonder, is being anti-Rape as sick as being for rape? > > > > > > I'm willing to allow the person who has been raped quite a wide > berth > > > to vent and vent and vent. And especially given the lopsided nature > > of > > > the pro/anti step debate in the American media today, I am not so > > > tolerant of AA defense. > > > > > > Lastly, this List is not a Life for me. It is one of many > activities > > > in my life, which includes sitting on the Board of two software > > > companies and actively conducting research, assisting environmental > > > agencies, etc. > > > > > > Far from preventing me from `getting a life' this list has assisted > me > > > in rebuilding and expanding a genuine and fulfilling life FREE from > > the > > > disgusting Hell of AA. > > > > > > Amen to that and Fuck AA! > > > -GP de Arboleda > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > " guadman " guadma-@... wrote: > > > original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=1 > 37 > > 84 > > > > . > > > > > > > > I wasn't talking about SOS or RR. > > > > I was making a comment about what was posted regarding AA. > > > > > > > > And...is this the new definition here?... " 12 step free, unlike AA > is > > > > simply a place to vent, explore new ideas,... " . > > > > > > > > What it actually says is.. " Twelve Step Free Zone is a discussion > > list > > > > for those who have left the groups or are seriously questioning > the > > > > 12-step doctrine....The focus of discussion is on sharing > experience > > > > with and information on the step groups... " > > > > > > > > I have to tell ya, what it seems like u r saying is... " it's > ant-AA, > > or > > > > the highway " . > > > > > > > > It makes me sick. > > > > > > > > guadman > > > > > > > > > > > > sean p cashin uusea-@... wrote: > > > > original article:/group/12-step-free/?start > =1 > > 37 > > > 75 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Gaudman, > > > > > > > > > > RR also says right up front that they are for abstinence, as > does > > > > SOS. > > > > > They do so without religious dogma or group think. Also, I > think > > > > that it > > > > > is important to remember that many of on this list are new to 12 > > > step > > > > > free life, or were deeply hurt by AA and need to vent and > process > > > > that. > > > > > Others, as you read, are living happy 12 step free lives. Also > > > begin > > > > a > > > > > very diverse list, there are those eon this list who are now > > > drinking > > > > > moderately. > > > > > > > > > > again, 12 step free, unlike AA is simply a place to vent, > explore > > > new > > > > > ideas, process the 12 step experience. It is not a " way of > life " > > > > like a > > > > > religion. I vent, here, for example, and go on with my day. I > > > > seldom, > > > > > if ever, talk with anyone about my 12 step experience. This is > > the > > > > place > > > > > for that. > > > > > > > > > > As for the question of balance, I think that given the hundreds > of > > > 12 > > > > > steps list on the net. I guess that the truth of 12 step free > has > > > > set me > > > > > free, and I don't need to begin every post with, " AA does have > > it's > > > > good > > > > > points. " As SMART would say, it is irrational to think that AA > is > > > all > > > > > bad. (There' s ome truth for ya'.) > > > > > > > > > > So anyway, it's time for me to get on with my " happy, joyous and > > 12 > > > > step > > > > > free day. You know, I must be in a very good mood today. Thank > > you > > > > all > > > > > for posting. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > eGroups.com Home: /group/12-step-free > www. - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 24, 2000 Report Share Posted March 24, 2000 Hi Guadman. I agree with , but until now I thought that my inability to get any sense from your mails was due to my lacking knowledge of american lingo. When you say that you understand someone I have great problems understanding what you actually are understanding, and when you disagree, I can't figure out what you're disagreeing about. If you otherwise are a sensible person, the only logic I can get out of this is that you are in great trouble, but don't want to tell nobody about it. Maybe you should just get out of the closet? We aren't that bad. Bjørn p.s. I looked 'gaud' up, and in Danish it's something used to decorate something else with. In Danish, to be decorated is the same as being drunk. But, that of course, is our lingo. B(j)orn again. (ups) Price wrote: > My Dear Mr. Gaudman: > > I think you have a few screws loose. > > Dude, you can't simply throw things back and make sense. > > If you want to debate you should respond to the issues raised and the > terms of the argument, their definition, the coherence, evidence, line > of reasoning, and so forth. Something, anything. > > and ... I think YOU'RE just like AA, You just changed Hats, uh, or > Neckties, so there! > -GPdA > > " guadman " guadma-@... wrote: > original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=13820 > > . > > > > To me, what you said, is simply a long-winded way of expressing that > > ideas contrary to what people like to say here will NOT be tolerated. > > Guess that " wide berth " thing apllies ONLY if it fits in with what you > > like to hear. > > > > By the criteria that you stated, you aren't even the teeniest bit > > different then any AA'er I have ever met. > > > > The man complaints I see here, and that I have, regarding AA involve > > harassment and even punishment for individual/free/questioning and > > thinking that goes against the stated AA rhetoric. > > > > What you seem to be saying is that, here also, there will be > > harrassment and even punishment " for individual/free/questioning and > > thinking that goes against " what you say is the " 12 step-free stated > > rheotoric " . > > > > I think that is quite simply, one huge crock of shyt. > > > > All you seem to have done, is change your coat and where you happen to > > hang your hat. > > > > guadman > > > > > > And, lying. > > > > > > " george price " gpric-@... wrote: > > original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=138 > 02 > > > Hmmmm. > > > > > > Not anti-AA or the highway, but rather: > > > > > > ways to address substance issues FREE of the 12 steps. > > > > > > No advocacy or recommendation of the 12-steps as a means of > addressing > > > substance or other life behavior problems. > > > > > > I also noticed that your quote from the intro was curiously > selective, > > > in that you omitted the key sentence containing the word " critical, " > > > > > > " Perhaps our most important function is to provide the first place > > > where many can dare be critical and not be accused by a " unanimous > > > majority " of groupers of suffering from one " defect of character " or > > > another for doing so. " > > > > > > Note this word: Critical > > > > > > When you write that our list's Anti-AA or the highway (seemingly) > > > position makes you " sick, " it does seem to me that you are getting > > > close to infringing on " ... our most important function ... " <see > > > above><repeat loop until comprehended> -- by 'accusing' people of > > > defects by implication; namely, not being open minded, as sick as > the > > > others, etc. > > > > > > In simpler terms, you're attacking people for being critical of AA > and > > > you're telling them that there's something wrong with them. > > > > > > seems like it, anyhow. > > > > > > BTW, no one is required to be critical or else. There are many > other > > > types of posts, Pro-RR, moderation successes and failures and > > > subsequent ponderings, therapies attempted, cats, birds, boats … " > > > > > > but for me -- This IS a place to be critical of AA. This is not a > > > place to defend AA. > > > > > > And by the intro `charter' -- This is a place where one can be > > critical > > > of AA without being attacked. > > > > > > This is also a place to suggest new and/or different approaches to > > > problems commonly faced by people who would otherwise turn to the > > > steps. > > > > > > Finally, this is a place for people to share information about the > > > 12-step " religion " with an eye toward assisting people " loved ones " > > who > > > are " trapped " in the Groups. That's trapped. > > > > > > I wonder, is being anti-Rape as sick as being for rape? > > > > > > I'm willing to allow the person who has been raped quite a wide > berth > > > to vent and vent and vent. And especially given the lopsided nature > > of > > > the pro/anti step debate in the American media today, I am not so > > > tolerant of AA defense. > > > > > > Lastly, this List is not a Life for me. It is one of many > activities > > > in my life, which includes sitting on the Board of two software > > > companies and actively conducting research, assisting environmental > > > agencies, etc. > > > > > > Far from preventing me from `getting a life' this list has assisted > me > > > in rebuilding and expanding a genuine and fulfilling life FREE from > > the > > > disgusting Hell of AA. > > > > > > Amen to that and Fuck AA! > > > -GP de Arboleda > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > " guadman " guadma-@... wrote: > > > original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=1 > 37 > > 84 > > > > . > > > > > > > > I wasn't talking about SOS or RR. > > > > I was making a comment about what was posted regarding AA. > > > > > > > > And...is this the new definition here?... " 12 step free, unlike AA > is > > > > simply a place to vent, explore new ideas,... " . > > > > > > > > What it actually says is.. " Twelve Step Free Zone is a discussion > > list > > > > for those who have left the groups or are seriously questioning > the > > > > 12-step doctrine....The focus of discussion is on sharing > experience > > > > with and information on the step groups... " > > > > > > > > I have to tell ya, what it seems like u r saying is... " it's > ant-AA, > > or > > > > the highway " . > > > > > > > > It makes me sick. > > > > > > > > guadman > > > > > > > > > > > > sean p cashin uusea-@... wrote: > > > > original article:/group/12-step-free/?start > =1 > > 37 > > > 75 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Gaudman, > > > > > > > > > > RR also says right up front that they are for abstinence, as > does > > > > SOS. > > > > > They do so without religious dogma or group think. Also, I > think > > > > that it > > > > > is important to remember that many of on this list are new to 12 > > > step > > > > > free life, or were deeply hurt by AA and need to vent and > process > > > > that. > > > > > Others, as you read, are living happy 12 step free lives. Also > > > begin > > > > a > > > > > very diverse list, there are those eon this list who are now > > > drinking > > > > > moderately. > > > > > > > > > > again, 12 step free, unlike AA is simply a place to vent, > explore > > > new > > > > > ideas, process the 12 step experience. It is not a " way of > life " > > > > like a > > > > > religion. I vent, here, for example, and go on with my day. I > > > > seldom, > > > > > if ever, talk with anyone about my 12 step experience. This is > > the > > > > place > > > > > for that. > > > > > > > > > > As for the question of balance, I think that given the hundreds > of > > > 12 > > > > > steps list on the net. I guess that the truth of 12 step free > has > > > > set me > > > > > free, and I don't need to begin every post with, " AA does have > > it's > > > > good > > > > > points. " As SMART would say, it is irrational to think that AA > is > > > all > > > > > bad. (There' s ome truth for ya'.) > > > > > > > > > > So anyway, it's time for me to get on with my " happy, joyous and > > 12 > > > > step > > > > > free day. You know, I must be in a very good mood today. Thank > > you > > > > all > > > > > for posting. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > eGroups.com Home: /group/12-step-free > www. - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 24, 2000 Report Share Posted March 24, 2000 . My " screws " are just fine, thank u very much. Just tried to read your post before this one and had to quit because it made my head hurt. I think as far as " loose screws " are concerned, u r definitely talking about yourself. guadman " george price " wrote: original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=13903 > My Dear Mr. Gaudman: > > I think you have a few screws loose. > > Dude, you can't simply throw things back and make sense. > > If you want to debate you should respond to the issues raised and the > terms of the argument, their definition, the coherence, evidence, line > of reasoning, and so forth. Something, anything. > > and ... I think YOU'RE just like AA, You just changed Hats, uh, or > Neckties, so there! > -GPdA > > > " guadman " wrote: > original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=138 20 > > . > > > > To me, what you said, is simply a long-winded way of expressing that > > ideas contrary to what people like to say here will NOT be tolerated. > > Guess that " wide berth " thing apllies ONLY if it fits in with what you > > like to hear. > > > > By the criteria that you stated, you aren't even the teeniest bit > > different then any AA'er I have ever met. > > > > The man complaints I see here, and that I have, regarding AA involve > > harassment and even punishment for individual/free/questioning and > > thinking that goes against the stated AA rhetoric. > > > > What you seem to be saying is that, here also, there will be > > harrassment and even punishment " for individual/free/questioning and > > thinking that goes against " what you say is the " 12 step-free stated > > rheotoric " . > > > > I think that is quite simply, one huge crock of shyt. > > > > All you seem to have done, is change your coat and where you happen to > > hang your hat. > > > > guadman > > > > > > And, lying. > > > > > > " george price " wrote: > > original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=1 38 > 02 > > > Hmmmm. > > > > > > Not anti-AA or the highway, but rather: > > > > > > ways to address substance issues FREE of the 12 steps. > > > > > > No advocacy or recommendation of the 12-steps as a means of > addressing > > > substance or other life behavior problems. > > > > > > I also noticed that your quote from the intro was curiously > selective, > > > in that you omitted the key sentence containing the word " critical, " > > > > > > " Perhaps our most important function is to provide the first place > > > where many can dare be critical and not be accused by a " unanimous > > > majority " of groupers of suffering from one " defect of character " or > > > another for doing so. " > > > > > > Note this word: Critical > > > > > > When you write that our list's Anti-AA or the highway (seemingly) > > > position makes you " sick, " it does seem to me that you are getting > > > close to infringing on " ... our most important function ... " <see > > > above><repeat loop until comprehended> -- by 'accusing' people of > > > defects by implication; namely, not being open minded, as sick as > the > > > others, etc. > > > > > > In simpler terms, you're attacking people for being critical of AA > and > > > you're telling them that there's something wrong with them. > > > > > > seems like it, anyhow. > > > > > > BTW, no one is required to be critical or else. There are many > other > > > types of posts, Pro-RR, moderation successes and failures and > > > subsequent ponderings, therapies attempted, cats, birds, boats … " > > > > > > but for me -- This IS a place to be critical of AA. This is not a > > > place to defend AA. > > > > > > And by the intro `charter' -- This is a place where one can be > > critical > > > of AA without being attacked. > > > > > > This is also a place to suggest new and/or different approaches to > > > problems commonly faced by people who would otherwise turn to the > > > steps. > > > > > > Finally, this is a place for people to share information about the > > > 12-step " religion " with an eye toward assisting people " loved ones " > > who > > > are " trapped " in the Groups. That's trapped. > > > > > > I wonder, is being anti-Rape as sick as being for rape? > > > > > > I'm willing to allow the person who has been raped quite a wide > berth > > > to vent and vent and vent. And especially given the lopsided nature > > of > > > the pro/anti step debate in the American media today, I am not so > > > tolerant of AA defense. > > > > > > Lastly, this List is not a Life for me. It is one of many > activities > > > in my life, which includes sitting on the Board of two software > > > companies and actively conducting research, assisting environmental > > > agencies, etc. > > > > > > Far from preventing me from `getting a life' this list has assisted > me > > > in rebuilding and expanding a genuine and fulfilling life FREE from > > the > > > disgusting Hell of AA. > > > > > > Amen to that and Fuck AA! > > > -GP de Arboleda > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > " guadman " wrote: > > > original article:/group/12-step-free/?start =1 > 37 > > 84 > > > > . > > > > > > > > I wasn't talking about SOS or RR. > > > > I was making a comment about what was posted regarding AA. > > > > > > > > And...is this the new definition here?... " 12 step free, unlike AA > is > > > > simply a place to vent, explore new ideas,... " . > > > > > > > > What it actually says is.. " Twelve Step Free Zone is a discussion > > list > > > > for those who have left the groups or are seriously questioning > the > > > > 12-step doctrine....The focus of discussion is on sharing > experience > > > > with and information on the step groups... " > > > > > > > > I have to tell ya, what it seems like u r saying is... " it's > ant-AA, > > or > > > > the highway " . > > > > > > > > It makes me sick. > > > > > > > > guadman > > > > > > > > > > > > sean p cashin wrote: > > > > original article:/group/12-step-free/?sta rt > =1 > > 37 > > > 75 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Gaudman, > > > > > > > > > > RR also says right up front that they are for abstinence, as > does > > > > SOS. > > > > > They do so without religious dogma or group think. Also, I > think > > > > that it > > > > > is important to remember that many of on this list are new to 12 > > > step > > > > > free life, or were deeply hurt by AA and need to vent and > process > > > > that. > > > > > Others, as you read, are living happy 12 step free lives. Also > > > begin > > > > a > > > > > very diverse list, there are those eon this list who are now > > > drinking > > > > > moderately. > > > > > > > > > > again, 12 step free, unlike AA is simply a place to vent, > explore > > > new > > > > > ideas, process the 12 step experience. It is not a " way of > life " > > > > like a > > > > > religion. I vent, here, for example, and go on with my day. I > > > > seldom, > > > > > if ever, talk with anyone about my 12 step experience. This is > > the > > > > place > > > > > for that. > > > > > > > > > > As for the question of balance, I think that given the hundreds > of > > > 12 > > > > > steps list on the net. I guess that the truth of 12 step free > has > > > > set me > > > > > free, and I don't need to begin every post with, " AA does have > > it's > > > > good > > > > > points. " As SMART would say, it is irrational to think that AA > is > > > all > > > > > bad. (There' s ome truth for ya'.) > > > > > > > > > > So anyway, it's time for me to get on with my " happy, joyous and > > 12 > > > > step > > > > > free day. You know, I must be in a very good mood today. Thank > > you > > > > all > > > > > for posting. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 24, 2000 Report Share Posted March 24, 2000 Bjorn. HAHAHA. You " analyzed and advised " me! HAHAHA. The real hallmark of a true 12 stepper! HAHAHA. BTW. I post like this everywhere. I've never really had people tell me they can't understand what I am saying. I guess when u have your head stuck up your own arse, it makes it hard to hear people. I keep posting what I really think, based on experiences I have had and the way i genuinely live. I guess when you lie to yourself as a lifestyle, that is a very hard thing make sense of. Like I have seen people post here about AA, my first impressions of this list were right for me. This is NOT a very friendly place (apple and sean being intelligent definite exceptions). AND...maybe more importantly..it is NOT a place to be straight with yourself and tell the TRUTH. Unless it happens to agree with the party line. My arguments against AA were never really against the AA ideas per se. It's about the lies and deceits. I feel that way about lying...anywhere. I realize...that since i am..once again..telling things as straight as I can...u and will be incapable of making any sense of it. At least I know I really meant what i said. guadman =?iso-8859-1?q?bj=f8rn?= herring wrote: original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=13919 > Hi Guadman. > > I agree with , but until now I thought that my inability to get any > sense from your mails was due to my lacking knowledge of american lingo. > > When you say that you understand someone I have great problems understanding > what you actually are understanding, and when you disagree, I can't figure out > what you're disagreeing about. > > If you otherwise are a sensible person, the only logic I can get out of this > is that you are in great trouble, but don't want to tell nobody about it. > > Maybe you should just get out of the closet? We aren't that bad. > > Bjørn > > p.s. > > I looked 'gaud' up, and in Danish it's something used to decorate something > else with. In Danish, to be decorated is the same as being drunk. But, that of > course, is our lingo. > > B(j)orn again. (ups) > > Price wrote: > > > My Dear Mr. Gaudman: > > > > I think you have a few screws loose. > > > > Dude, you can't simply throw things back and make sense. > > > > If you want to debate you should respond to the issues raised and the > > terms of the argument, their definition, the coherence, evidence, line > > of reasoning, and so forth. Something, anything. > > > > and ... I think YOU'RE just like AA, You just changed Hats, uh, or > > Neckties, so there! > > -GPdA > > > > " guadman " guadma-@... wrote: > > original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=1 3820 > > > . > > > > > > To me, what you said, is simply a long-winded way of expressing that > > > ideas contrary to what people like to say here will NOT be tolerated. > > > Guess that " wide berth " thing apllies ONLY if it fits in with what you > > > like to hear. > > > > > > By the criteria that you stated, you aren't even the teeniest bit > > > different then any AA'er I have ever met. > > > > > > The man complaints I see here, and that I have, regarding AA involve > > > harassment and even punishment for individual/free/questioning and > > > thinking that goes against the stated AA rhetoric. > > > > > > What you seem to be saying is that, here also, there will be > > > harrassment and even punishment " for individual/free/questioning and > > > thinking that goes against " what you say is the " 12 step-free stated > > > rheotoric " . > > > > > > I think that is quite simply, one huge crock of shyt. > > > > > > All you seem to have done, is change your coat and where you happen to > > > hang your hat. > > > > > > guadman > > > > > > > > > And, lying. > > > > > > > > > " george price " gpric-@... wrote: > > > original article:/group/12-step-free/?start =138 > > 02 > > > > Hmmmm. > > > > > > > > Not anti-AA or the highway, but rather: > > > > > > > > ways to address substance issues FREE of the 12 steps. > > > > > > > > No advocacy or recommendation of the 12-steps as a means of > > addressing > > > > substance or other life behavior problems. > > > > > > > > I also noticed that your quote from the intro was curiously > > selective, > > > > in that you omitted the key sentence containing the word " critical, " > > > > > > > > " Perhaps our most important function is to provide the first place > > > > where many can dare be critical and not be accused by a " unanimous > > > > majority " of groupers of suffering from one " defect of character " or > > > > another for doing so. " > > > > > > > > Note this word: Critical > > > > > > > > When you write that our list's Anti-AA or the highway (seemingly) > > > > position makes you " sick, " it does seem to me that you are getting > > > > close to infringing on " ... our most important function ... " <see > > > > above><repeat loop until comprehended> -- by 'accusing' people of > > > > defects by implication; namely, not being open minded, as sick as > > the > > > > others, etc. > > > > > > > > In simpler terms, you're attacking people for being critical of AA > > and > > > > you're telling them that there's something wrong with them. > > > > > > > > seems like it, anyhow. > > > > > > > > BTW, no one is required to be critical or else. There are many > > other > > > > types of posts, Pro-RR, moderation successes and failures and > > > > subsequent ponderings, therapies attempted, cats, birds, boats … " > > > > > > > > but for me -- This IS a place to be critical of AA. This is not a > > > > place to defend AA. > > > > > > > > And by the intro `charter' -- This is a place where one can be > > > critical > > > > of AA without being attacked. > > > > > > > > This is also a place to suggest new and/or different approaches to > > > > problems commonly faced by people who would otherwise turn to the > > > > steps. > > > > > > > > Finally, this is a place for people to share information about the > > > > 12-step " religion " with an eye toward assisting people " loved ones " > > > who > > > > are " trapped " in the Groups. That's trapped. > > > > > > > > I wonder, is being anti-Rape as sick as being for rape? > > > > > > > > I'm willing to allow the person who has been raped quite a wide > > berth > > > > to vent and vent and vent. And especially given the lopsided nature > > > of > > > > the pro/anti step debate in the American media today, I am not so > > > > tolerant of AA defense. > > > > > > > > Lastly, this List is not a Life for me. It is one of many > > activities > > > > in my life, which includes sitting on the Board of two software > > > > companies and actively conducting research, assisting environmental > > > > agencies, etc. > > > > > > > > Far from preventing me from `getting a life' this list has assisted > > me > > > > in rebuilding and expanding a genuine and fulfilling life FREE from > > > the > > > > disgusting Hell of AA. > > > > > > > > Amen to that and Fuck AA! > > > > -GP de Arboleda > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > " guadman " guadma-@... wrote: > > > > original article:/group/12-step-free/?sta rt=1 > > 37 > > > 84 > > > > > . > > > > > > > > > > I wasn't talking about SOS or RR. > > > > > I was making a comment about what was posted regarding AA. > > > > > > > > > > And...is this the new definition here?... " 12 step free, unlike AA > > is > > > > > simply a place to vent, explore new ideas,... " . > > > > > > > > > > What it actually says is.. " Twelve Step Free Zone is a discussion > > > list > > > > > for those who have left the groups or are seriously questioning > > the > > > > > 12-step doctrine....The focus of discussion is on sharing > > experience > > > > > with and information on the step groups... " > > > > > > > > > > I have to tell ya, what it seems like u r saying is... " it's > > ant-AA, > > > or > > > > > the highway " . > > > > > > > > > > It makes me sick. > > > > > > > > > > guadman > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > sean p cashin uusea-@... wrote: > > > > > original article:/group/12-step-free/?s tart > > =1 > > > 37 > > > > 75 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Gaudman, > > > > > > > > > > > > RR also says right up front that they are for abstinence, as > > does > > > > > SOS. > > > > > > They do so without religious dogma or group think. Also, I > > think > > > > > that it > > > > > > is important to remember that many of on this list are new to 12 > > > > step > > > > > > free life, or were deeply hurt by AA and need to vent and > > process > > > > > that. > > > > > > Others, as you read, are living happy 12 step free lives. Also > > > > begin > > > > > a > > > > > > very diverse list, there are those eon this list who are now > > > > drinking > > > > > > moderately. > > > > > > > > > > > > again, 12 step free, unlike AA is simply a place to vent, > > explore > > > > new > > > > > > ideas, process the 12 step experience. It is not a " way of > > life " > > > > > like a > > > > > > religion. I vent, here, for example, and go on with my day. I > > > > > seldom, > > > > > > if ever, talk with anyone about my 12 step experience. This is > > > the > > > > > place > > > > > > for that. > > > > > > > > > > > > As for the question of balance, I think that given the hundreds > > of > > > > 12 > > > > > > steps list on the net. I guess that the truth of 12 step free > > has > > > > > set me > > > > > > free, and I don't need to begin every post with, " AA does have > > > it's > > > > > good > > > > > > points. " As SMART would say, it is irrational to think that AA > > is > > > > all > > > > > > bad. (There' s ome truth for ya'.) > > > > > > > > > > > > So anyway, it's time for me to get on with my " happy, joyous and > > > 12 > > > > > step > > > > > > free day. You know, I must be in a very good mood today. Thank > > > you > > > > > all > > > > > > for posting. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 24, 2000 Report Share Posted March 24, 2000 Guad. Suddenly you're making sense. I'm proud of my positive impact on your thinking mode, and I'm glad I could make you laugh. Why do you fear that anybody should understand you? Do you really think it's enough that you understand yourself? If you do, you should start an autistic society list. No offense. Bjørn p.s. Head fucking is not one of my specialities. guadman wrote: Bjorn. HAHAHA. You "analyzed and advised" me! HAHAHA. The real hallmark of a true 12 stepper! HAHAHA. BTW. I post like this everywhere. I've never really had people tell me they can't understand what I am saying. I guess when u have your head stuck up your own arse, it makes it hard to hear people. I keep posting what I really think, based on experiences I have had and the way i genuinely live. I guess when you lie to yourself as a lifestyle, that is a very hard thing make sense of. Like I have seen people post here about AA, my first impressions of this list were right for me. This is NOT a very friendly place (apple and sean being intelligent definite exceptions). AND...maybe more importantly..it is NOT a place to be straight with yourself and tell the TRUTH. Unless it happens to agree with the party line. My arguments against AA were never really against the AA ideas per se. It's about the lies and deceits. I feel that way about lying...anywhere. I realize...that since i am..once again..telling things as straight as I can...u and will be incapable of making any sense of it. At least I know I really meant what i said. guadman =?iso-8859-1?q?bj=f8rn?= herring herrin-@... wrote: original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=13919 > Hi Guadman. > > I agree with , but until now I thought that my inability to get any > sense from your mails was due to my lacking knowledge of american lingo. > > When you say that you understand someone I have great problems understanding > what you actually are understanding, and when you disagree, I can't figure out > what you're disagreeing about. > > If you otherwise are a sensible person, the only logic I can get out of this > is that you are in great trouble, but don't want to tell nobody about it. > > Maybe you should just get out of the closet? We aren't that bad. > > Bjørn > > p.s. > > I looked 'gaud' up, and in Danish it's something used to decorate something > else with. In Danish, to be decorated is the same as being drunk. But, that of > course, is our lingo. > > B(j)orn again. (ups) > > Price wrote: > > > My Dear Mr. Gaudman: > > > > I think you have a few screws loose. > > > > Dude, you can't simply throw things back and make sense. > > > > If you want to debate you should respond to the issues raised and the > > terms of the argument, their definition, the coherence, evidence, line > > of reasoning, and so forth. Something, anything. > > > > and ... I think YOU'RE just like AA, You just changed Hats, uh, or > > Neckties, so there! > > -GPdA > > > > "guadman" guadma-@... wrote: > > original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=1 3820 > > > . > > > > > > To me, what you said, is simply a long-winded way of expressing that > > > ideas contrary to what people like to say here will NOT be tolerated. > > > Guess that "wide berth" thing apllies ONLY if it fits in with what you > > > like to hear. > > > > > > By the criteria that you stated, you aren't even the teeniest bit > > > different then any AA'er I have ever met. > > > > > > The man complaints I see here, and that I have, regarding AA involve > > > harassment and even punishment for individual/free/questioning and > > > thinking that goes against the stated AA rhetoric. > > > > > > What you seem to be saying is that, here also, there will be > > > harrassment and even punishment "for individual/free/questioning and > > > thinking that goes against" what you say is the "12 step-free stated > > > rheotoric". > > > > > > I think that is quite simply, one huge crock of shyt. > > > > > > All you seem to have done, is change your coat and where you happen to > > > hang your hat. > > > > > > guadman > > > > > > > > > And, lying. > > > > > > > > > "george price" gpric-@... wrote: > > > original article:/group/12-step-free/?start =138 > > 02 > > > > Hmmmm. > > > > > > > > Not anti-AA or the highway, but rather: > > > > > > > > ways to address substance issues FREE of the 12 steps. > > > > > > > > No advocacy or recommendation of the 12-steps as a means of > > addressing > > > > substance or other life behavior problems. > > > > > > > > I also noticed that your quote from the intro was curiously > > selective, > > > > in that you omitted the key sentence containing the word "critical," > > > > > > > > "Perhaps our most important function is to provide the first place > > > > where many can dare be critical and not be accused by a "unanimous > > > > majority" of groupers of suffering from one "defect of character" or > > > > another for doing so." > > > > > > > > Note this word: Critical > > > > > > > > When you write that our list's Anti-AA or the highway (seemingly) > > > > position makes you "sick," it does seem to me that you are getting > > > > close to infringing on " ... our most important function ..." <see > > > > above><repeat loop until comprehended> -- by 'accusing' people of > > > > defects by implication; namely, not being open minded, as sick as > > the > > > > others, etc. > > > > > > > > In simpler terms, you're attacking people for being critical of AA > > and > > > > you're telling them that there's something wrong with them. > > > > > > > > seems like it, anyhow. > > > > > > > > BTW, no one is required to be critical or else. There are many > > other > > > > types of posts, Pro-RR, moderation successes and failures and > > > > subsequent ponderings, therapies attempted, cats, birds, boats …" > > > > > > > > but for me -- This IS a place to be critical of AA. This is not a > > > > place to defend AA. > > > > > > > > And by the intro `charter' -- This is a place where one can be > > > critical > > > > of AA without being attacked. > > > > > > > > This is also a place to suggest new and/or different approaches to > > > > problems commonly faced by people who would otherwise turn to the > > > > steps. > > > > > > > > Finally, this is a place for people to share information about the > > > > 12-step "religion" with an eye toward assisting people "loved ones" > > > who > > > > are "trapped" in the Groups. That's trapped. > > > > > > > > I wonder, is being anti-Rape as sick as being for rape? > > > > > > > > I'm willing to allow the person who has been raped quite a wide > > berth > > > > to vent and vent and vent. And especially given the lopsided nature > > > of > > > > the pro/anti step debate in the American media today, I am not so > > > > tolerant of AA defense. > > > > > > > > Lastly, this List is not a Life for me. It is one of many > > activities > > > > in my life, which includes sitting on the Board of two software > > > > companies and actively conducting research, assisting environmental > > > > agencies, etc. > > > > > > > > Far from preventing me from `getting a life' this list has assisted > > me > > > > in rebuilding and expanding a genuine and fulfilling life FREE from > > > the > > > > disgusting Hell of AA. > > > > > > > > Amen to that and Fuck AA! > > > > -GP de Arboleda > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "guadman" guadma-@... wrote: > > > > original article:/group/12-step-free/?sta rt=1 > > 37 > > > 84 > > > > > . > > > > > > > > > > I wasn't talking about SOS or RR. > > > > > I was making a comment about what was posted regarding AA. > > > > > > > > > > And...is this the new definition here?..."12 step free, unlike AA > > is > > > > > simply a place to vent, explore new ideas,...". > > > > > > > > > > What it actually says is.."Twelve Step Free Zone is a discussion > > > list > > > > > for those who have left the groups or are seriously questioning > > the > > > > > 12-step doctrine....The focus of discussion is on sharing > > experience > > > > > with and information on the step groups..." > > > > > > > > > > I have to tell ya, what it seems like u r saying is..."it's > > ant-AA, > > > or > > > > > the highway". > > > > > > > > > > It makes me sick. > > > > > > > > > > guadman > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > sean p cashin uusea-@... wrote: > > > > > original article:/group/12-step-free/?s tart > > =1 > > > 37 > > > > 75 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Gaudman, > > > > > > > > > > > > RR also says right up front that they are for abstinence, as > > does > > > > > SOS. > > > > > > They do so without religious dogma or group think. Also, I > > think > > > > > that it > > > > > > is important to remember that many of on this list are new to 12 > > > > step > > > > > > free life, or were deeply hurt by AA and need to vent and > > process > > > > > that. > > > > > > Others, as you read, are living happy 12 step free lives. Also > > > > begin > > > > > a > > > > > > very diverse list, there are those eon this list who are now > > > > drinking > > > > > > moderately. > > > > > > > > > > > > again, 12 step free, unlike AA is simply a place to vent, > > explore > > > > new > > > > > > ideas, process the 12 step experience. It is not a "way of > > life" > > > > > like a > > > > > > religion. I vent, here, for example, and go on with my day. I > > > > > seldom, > > > > > > if ever, talk with anyone about my 12 step experience. This is > > > the > > > > > place > > > > > > for that. > > > > > > > > > > > > As for the question of balance, I think that given the hundreds > > of > > > > 12 > > > > > > steps list on the net. I guess that the truth of 12 step free > > has > > > > > set me > > > > > > free, and I don't need to begin every post with," AA does have > > > it's > > > > > good > > > > > > points." As SMART would say, it is irrational to think that AA > > is > > > > all > > > > > > bad. (There' s ome truth for ya'.) > > > > > > > > > > > > So anyway, it's time for me to get on with my "happy, joyous and > > > 12 > > > > > step > > > > > > free day. You know, I must be in a very good mood today. Thank > > > you > > > > > all > > > > > > for posting. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > eGroups.com Home: /group/12-step-free www. - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 24, 2000 Report Share Posted March 24, 2000 Stick around Bill, you'll hear some horror stories! jan hankpyr-@... wrote: original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=13778 > Hi folks. > This is meant as a delurk and thought this was as good as any place to jump > in. For the record, I am not a member of AA and never will be. I am almost a > nondrinker, consuming very sparingly. I am 42 and live a quiet life. Had a > wild adolescence and early adulthood and grew out of my recklessness without > any help from any group. I am concerned about the pseudoscience of the > recovery movement and the politicalization of the 12 step cult. They frighten > me. So excuse me for not having any first person horror stories. If you have > any horror stories, I would certainly love to hear them. > > Thanks > Bill (Not Bill W.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 14, 2000 Report Share Posted April 14, 2000 Hi , I've just joined here and I was told to speak in generic terms when it came to talk about my sexuality at meetings. So couldn't say " he " when talking about a partner but should say :they " . . SEAN P CASHIN wrote: > > > > Hi Pete, > > My AA homegroup told me to keep my homosexuality a secret, and to edit > my > story to sound straight. My rehab told me the same thing. Then they > said that I was sick as my secrets, and honesty was vital to staying > sober. Huh?? Am I the only one who finds contradictions here? > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > [Automatic, Safe, Reliable Backups and Restores.] > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 14, 2000 Report Share Posted April 14, 2000 Hi , I've just joined here and I was told to speak in generic terms when it came to talk about my sexuality at meetings. So couldn't say " he " when talking about a partner but should say :they " . . SEAN P CASHIN wrote: > > > > Hi Pete, > > My AA homegroup told me to keep my homosexuality a secret, and to edit > my > story to sound straight. My rehab told me the same thing. Then they > said that I was sick as my secrets, and honesty was vital to staying > sober. Huh?? Am I the only one who finds contradictions here? > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > [Automatic, Safe, Reliable Backups and Restores.] > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 14, 2000 Report Share Posted April 14, 2000 , How in the hell did they rationalize this if they preach total honesty? Are there some " honesty exceptions " that I wasn't aware of? Maybe you're allowed to be dishonest when they hold a group conscience meeting and see if it's okay? > I think that they were actually looking forward to hearing about my rather colorful past, because when I hit that one year mark, they kept asking me to lead. Guess they'll just have to use what's left of their sick imaginations on that one! Sue > > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 14, 2000 Report Share Posted April 14, 2000 I know what you mean. My drinking was mainly around the gay club scene of Sydney. At rehab we were assigned a councellor and I started to open up about my past with him. As soon as I told him about some things I used to get up to he hardly spoke to me again. He has been in the program for 26 years. You'd think a councellor would at least be non judgemental. . SEAN P CASHIN wrote: > > > , > > In my area, " telling your story " is essential to good sobriety, or so > they would say. Most of my " story " happened in and around the NYC gay > > scene. Hustlers, after hour clubs, that kind of thing. I seldom > drank > or used at home, so not much " story " was left after editing. In rehab > > this was especially strange, during the " hotseat, " which was a > requirement. There I was, days sober, inventing a straight friendly > story. Oh well, at least I learned that I can invent a new life story > on > the spot, but that really was not supposed to be the point. As for > the > " they " thing, since when can you take a singular pronoun and make it > plural, and still be correct. Anyway, I find that the places gay > couples > go for fun and the people they are friends with often make > substitution > weird. My partner and I, for example, belong to the Gen X Bears, and > meet them to go to the village. While substitution is possible, it > seems > to me that it takes away from sharing the essence of a story when you > make everything kind of generic. you know, we met hairy people and > saw a > movie..it's just not the same as..Mike and I met the bears for lunch > and > dish..you get the idea. After all, AAers are supposed to be > " friends' " > so why edit for the ears of friends. Anyway, welcome to 12 step free, > > nice to meet you. > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > [Automatic, Safe, Reliable Backups and Restores.] > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 15, 2000 Report Share Posted April 15, 2000 I believe one of my drug counselors might have been gay. He just sort of acted " that way. " Of course, I realize that really means nothing and I'm just assuming because he fit the stereotype. But anyway, I had spoken in group about going to the Lambda meetings, and he once asked me in a private session if I was gay. I told him I'm not -- I just went to that meeting because it was convenient and I thought they'd be less hardline about the program crap. The counselor seemed really sad when he asked me that. If he was gay, he never mentioned it to us clients in the outpatient program. It just makes me wonder how much good it does a gay person to tell them to " get religion " when Western religion, for the most part, craps all over gays. A sidenote: Based on my reading of the Bible, I think the fundamentalists make way too big a deal out of God nuking Sodom and Gomorrah. First, there's the dispute over whether God was even pissed about homosexuality when he did that. Even if He was, big deal. The OT God was constantly smiting major population centers for various transgressions. As I recall, idolatry was the main reason cited for mass smitings. I mean, how many times did Jerusalem get leveled? Anyway, I'm an atheist, so the point is moot for me. Only reason I bother thinking about this crap is so I piss off the occasional Bible thumper who gives me a hard time. > > > Hi , > > I know it is a travesty. I mean I know that my sexuality is only one > aspect of my personality, and no I don't run up to every person I meet > and say, " hi, I'm , I'm gay. " But when one is dealing with self > destructive behavior, I think that is vital to explore freely all aspects > of the personality. Also, while I certainly would tailer my story not to > offend, I think that in a fellowship like AA, there should be acceptance > of all kinds of people, not just those who neatly " fit into the club. " > > > P.S. Of course there is the ghetto of gay meetings, but isn't the need > for " special meetings,' a violation of their own tradition which implies > an equal welcome for all? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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