help

[Guest guest]

Amy,

I got out when I had seen enough to convince me that the program was the

antithesis of what I thought it would be. I wanted to learn to live with

myself--not a bunch of sick-o's who needed to control me.

The good news is and was that I recognized the syndrome fairly quickly. The

bad news was, there was a lot of brain washing going on.

Does the person who you love have any idea that he is in a cult? Any

discomfort around being told what to think? Looking at the people in AA and

wondering what it is that makes them believe they have any business at all

telling another person what is good for them and what is not? Beginning to

see the " jails, institutions, and death, " utterances as an agent of control,

or even a threat?

llawrence@...

Re: 12 stepper insanity

>

>

> > Dear guadman & apple, I just checked out the postings at the forum you

> > mentioned and at the risk of sounding like a drunken frat boy, I LOOOVE

> YOU

> > GUYS!!!

> >

> > Thank you for being such powerful voices of reason there. I don't yet

> have

> > the words to debate with steppers, but I'm learning from all of you here

> and

> > I appreciate the apprenticeship.

> >

> >

> >

> > >If anyone is interested in taking a peek, I have been having an ongoing

> > >fight for " truth, justice and the american way " with a bunch of AA'ers

> > >at:

> > >

> > >The Neurology Webforums at Massachustees General Hospital

> > >http://neuro-mancer.mgh.harvard.edu/cgi-bin/Ultimate.cgi?action=intro & B

> > >ypassCookie=true

> > >

> > >

> > >Specifc Neurological Conditions:Alcoholism

> > >Topic: " Advice to 'Loners' "

> > >http://neuro-mancer.mgh.harvard.edu/ubb/Forum117/HTML/000024.html

> > >

> > >

> >

> > ______________________________________________________

> >

> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> > Planning a party? iParty.com is your complete source for party planning

> and

> > supplies, with everything you need to throw the perfect party!

> > http://click./1/1635/1/_/4324/_/952619141/

> >

> > -- Check out your group's private Chat room

> > -- /ChatPage?listName=12-step-free & m=1

> >

> >

>

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> @Backup- Protect and Access your data any time, any where on the net.

> Try @Backup FREE and recieve 300 points from mypoints.com Install now:

> http://click./1/2345/1/_/4324/_/952814518/

>

> -- Create a poll/survey for your group!

> -- /vote?listname=12-step-free & m=1

>

>

[Guest guest]

.

You are quite welcome!

guadman

> Re: 12 stepper insanity

>

>

> > Dear guadman & apple, I just checked out the postings at the forum

you

> > mentioned and at the risk of sounding like a drunken frat boy, I

LOOOVE

> YOU

> > GUYS!!!

> >

> > Thank you for being such powerful voices of reason there. I don't

yet

> have

> > the words to debate with steppers, but I'm learning from all of you

here

> and

> > I appreciate the apprenticeship.

> >

> >

> >

> > >If anyone is interested in taking a peek, I have been having an

ongoing

> > >fight for " truth, justice and the american way " with a bunch of

AA'ers

> > >at:

> > >

> > >The Neurology Webforums at Massachustees General Hospital

> > >http://neuro-mancer.mgh.harvard.edu/cgi-bin/Ultimate.cgi?action=in

tro & B

> > >ypassCookie=true

> > >

> > >

> > >Specifc Neurological Conditions:Alcoholism

> > >Topic: " Advice to 'Loners' "

> > >http://neuro-mancer.mgh.harvard.edu/ubb/Forum117/HTML/000024.html

> > >

> > >

> >

> > ______________________________________________________

> >

[Guest guest]

Hi Amy,

I honestly don't think that is poossible. Anyone who questioned my

involvement qiuckly got

x'd out of my life. I remember feeling they were complete heretics and my

very life was at stake.

I do think it is something someone has too come to on thier own. I still

don't think AA is quite the " evil entity " that some do. I think it may be a

nessasary process for some people. Trying to forcibly destroy someones

belief system...whether it be to get someone into AA or out of it just seems

repugnant to me. The whole point of freedom and autonomy is getting to the

place where someone feels they have the choice to make thier own decisions

for themselves. Maybe that is the place where you could be supportive.

Rebekah

>Can anyone give me some advice? What is the best way to get someone you love

>OUT of AA? How did those of you who were in AA get out? Did you come to the

>realization on your own?

> Re: 12 stepper insanity

>

>

>> Dear guadman & apple, I just checked out the postings at the forum you

>> mentioned and at the risk of sounding like a drunken frat boy, I LOOOVE

>YOU

>> GUYS!!!

>>

>> Thank you for being such powerful voices of reason there. I don't yet

>have

>> the words to debate with steppers, but I'm learning from all of you here

>and

>> I appreciate the apprenticeship.

>>

>>

>>

>> >If anyone is interested in taking a peek, I have been having an ongoing

>> >fight for " truth, justice and the american way " with a bunch of AA'ers

>> >at:

>> >

>> >The Neurology Webforums at Massachustees General Hospital

>> >http://neuro-mancer.mgh.harvard.edu/cgi-bin/Ultimate.cgi?action=intro & B

>> >ypassCookie=true

>> >

>> >

>> >Specifc Neurological Conditions:Alcoholism

>> >Topic: " Advice to 'Loners' "

>> >http://neuro-mancer.mgh.harvard.edu/ubb/Forum117/HTML/000024.html

>> >

>> >

>>

>> ______________________________________________________

>>

>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

>> Planning a party? iParty.com is your complete source for party planning

>and

>> supplies, with everything you need to throw the perfect party!

>> http://click./1/1635/1/_/4324/_/952619141/

>>

>> -- Check out your group's private Chat room

>> -- /ChatPage?listName=12-step-free & m=1

>>

>>

>

>

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>@Backup- Protect and Access your data any time, any where on the net.

>Try @Backup FREE and recieve 300 points from mypoints.com Install now:

>http://click./1/2345/1/_/4324/_/952814518/

>

>-- Create a poll/survey for your group!

>-- /vote?listname=12-step-free & m=1

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hello, List.

I have hardly been online in awhile and have missed much discussion here. I

am in a bit of a quandry. I was very active in AA for about eleven months a

couple of years ago, and left it after seeing through the b.s. and reading

the deprogramming website. About a week ago, after months of confusion and

depression that came to a head with me feeling like a steel bear trap had

snapped shut on my brain, in a fit of desperation I wound up back at the same

meeting hall asking the same person to sponsor me that had sponsored me

before. I attended a handful of meetings and once again quit going. I have

been freaking out. I have never taken very good care of myself; I live on the

fly, paycheck to paycheck, have tried many times to start logging my

behavior; I have trouble remembering things, have poor social skills and am

growing increasingly frustrated with my lack of living skills. I just sort of

survive. I find I can easily control my drinking, but drink to excess

sometimes out of a desperate desire to experience some form of pleasure. I

feel that I have been programmed to see myself as fundamentally and

permanently flawed with a need for someone else to tell me how to think and

live. Suicide has crossed my mind, though I doubt I would ever do it; I am

too curious about the future. I am not sure what I am asking for now, but I

really need to get a grip on life and start living. I am 28 years old and

don't want to waste the rest of my life with my mind a disorganized shitpile.

[Guest guest]

eudaimon,

I'm just learning alot of living skills myself, and that's at

40! But hey, what's the hurry? Is there a prize?

Everyone in life is just really doing this gig for the first

time as far as they know. Alot of people may appear to have it

together, but I figure they're just kinda' guessing, too! LOL

Paycheck to paycheck is not too bad really. I'm digging myself

out of a financial mess at the moment. But eventually I'll

get out. Takes effort on my part. (I was a slow learner on that

" effort " stuff.)

Please hang in there. Stay on the net with us, do lots of

deprogramming reading and by all means remember that you are

not powerless.

Sue

>From: eudaimon84133110@...

>Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

>To: 12-step-freeegroups

>Subject: Re: HELP

>Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 21:33:12 EDT

>

>Hello, List.

>

>I have hardly been online in awhile and have missed much discussion here. I

>am in a bit of a quandry. I was very active in AA for about eleven months a

>couple of years ago, and left it after seeing through the b.s. and reading

>the deprogramming website. About a week ago, after months of confusion and

>depression that came to a head with me feeling like a steel bear trap had

>snapped shut on my brain, in a fit of desperation I wound up back at the

>same

>meeting hall asking the same person to sponsor me that had sponsored me

>before. I attended a handful of meetings and once again quit going. I have

>been freaking out. I have never taken very good care of myself; I live on

>the

>fly, paycheck to paycheck, have tried many times to start logging my

>behavior; I have trouble remembering things, have poor social skills and am

>growing increasingly frustrated with my lack of living skills. I just sort

>of

>survive. I find I can easily control my drinking, but drink to excess

>sometimes out of a desperate desire to experience some form of pleasure. I

>feel that I have been programmed to see myself as fundamentally and

>permanently flawed with a need for someone else to tell me how to think and

>live. Suicide has crossed my mind, though I doubt I would ever do it; I am

>too curious about the future. I am not sure what I am asking for now, but I

>really need to get a grip on life and start living. I am 28 years old and

>don't want to waste the rest of my life with my mind a disorganized

>shitpile.

______________________________________________________

Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

[Guest guest]

M,

I am only a week out and I am already going through what you are. I

have been very depressed lately and this blended diet is already driving

me crazy. My main thing right now is that I have been craving my

favorite chinese food and I know that right now I can't have it. From

what I have read from other people this feelings are very normal. Right

now I am kicking myself in the a** for every having this done. But I

know that in the long run it will be the best thing for me and that's

what I have to concentrate on. There have been many times over the past

few days that I have sat and cried because losing my loss of food to me

is almost like losing an old good friend.

I have also developed a saroma yesterday and it won't stop leaking.

Went to the local ER since the hospital I had surgery at is 3 hrs away.

I know that this is very normal but I am leaking so much that even the

dressing is not enough it drips down and I have to keep a towel over my

" apron " . I can't move around too much right now since it just makes the

leaking worse.

Lea

[Guest guest]

Lea &

When I was in the early weeks, months I had days where I was sure I had done

something so wrong I was going to end up dying from it .. or regretting it

to rejoicing that I did it. At a year post op, at goal, in perfect health

and able to eat anything I want I am definitely glad I did this. Remember in

the early days you have to adjust mentally and physically to such a radical

change in life. I had alot of the " should I have tried WW one more time ... "

or " did I ruin my body " .. by doing this .. but in time those feelings

should go away. You just underwent such a major operation its bound to

affect your body and mind. Now granted if you are troubled to the point that

you cannot stop thinking about this .. and are depressed majorly I'd suggest

talking to your doctor, a friend, family or your surgeon ..

I'd like to say this is normal and will go away with time. In time your body

will heal such that you will feel " normal " again, you'll be eating more

foods, a better variety and starting to get back in the routine you knew

before surgery .. minus the ability to binge, eat alot of bad foods, etc.

I hope that this is just a passing phase for each and all of you ...

remember you have help out there if you need it so I encourage you to talk

about your feelings if you need reassurance. Thats what we are all here for

... we cannot replace a doctor however so if you think you need more than an

ear please call your doctor ..

Anyway thats my 0.02 cts. I had alot of those days where I just didn't know

why I did this .. but they are a fading memory now .. I have no regrets and

yes I guess I would do this again I'm feeling for ya!

Take care

Hugs

Lyssa

[Guest guest]

,

I think MOST post-ops go through this. It's totally normal! Your body is

still getting rid of the anesthesia and trying to heal, which takes up a lot

of energy. I went through the same thing at the same time. Just take it one

day at a time. Once you get back to normal food, and life continues as it did

before (except better), you will soar with happiness. Honestly, I never

thought it would happen for me, but it did! I still have my struggles with

food, but it workable. Once you feel better physically, your mind will follow.

- Alice A.

[Guest guest]

Lea & -I had my surgery June 9th at NWH with Dr. Thayer. Just wanted to

offer you both some reassurance about how you are feeling. In my opinion,

it's totally normal! First of all, the surgery itself causes such stress on

the body. I strongly believe in a mind-body connection and it is depressing

to be in so much pain. A couple of weeks after my surgery, I was having pain

in my stomach when eating and drinking. It took a good month or so before I

could figure out what was stomach pain, incision pain, hunger, fullness, etc.

IT DOES GET BETTER THOUGH! Also, I felt sad about my loss of energy and

mobility. I would take a shower, wash my hair, and then have to sit down to

rest. Plus I think everyone would say they were going crazy by week 3 of the

blended diet. Just knowing you can't have something makes you want it all

the more. That's just human nature to protest deprivation. I also think

it's the healthy part of us that senses we are not eating enough so the

cravings kick in-the survival instinct. We are eating so little those first

few weeks, fatigue is bound to set in. I think most medical experts consider

eating less than 1000 calories/day to be starvation. I know I was taking in

much less than that the first few weeks. Finally, any change, even a

positive one is stressful to the psyche. For those of us who went into the

surgery relatively healthy (well as healthy as you can be when you're heavy

enough to qualify for this type of surgery) there's the feeling that you

voluntarily put yourself through this surgery. I believe that some amount of

reactive depression and/or anxiety is normal at this point. I agree with

Lyssa that if you find yourself feeling sad or hopeless all the time or are

having serious trouble sleeping, it might not be a bad idea to talk to

someone. I was also weepy after surgery because my hormones were out of

whack. I got my period in the hospital the third day after surgery, then

again when I got home. I think we women know that hormonal changes are real

and not just " in our head " . Actually, they are in are head because our

hormone levels also affect our levels of neurotransmitters in the brain that

in turn affect our moods. My advice would be to try to have faith that

things will get better. Maybe make a list of all the reasons why you decided

to have this surgery in the first place. Seek support from people who have

been through it, and look how fabulous people look post-op. Most

importantly, be gentle with yourself. Eat when you are hungry, cry when you

are sad, sleep when you are tired, yell if you feel angry. Don't deny the

feelings, but be positive about the future. Every day gets better and

better. I think I'll step down from my soapbox now. I think I've been

watching too much Oprah-ha, ha. Take care and good luck!

Hugs,

Steph in Rockport

[Guest guest]

if the pain was that high, then maybe it is something that other folks

mentioned... eating too fast? A blockage? Don’t be afraid to eat, just do it

very slowly and carefully and see what happens.

- Alice A.

[Guest guest]

jeanie

I hope by now you are feeling better but I would call your doc to run all

this by him.

Lyssa

[Guest guest]

Jeanie:

You can get stool softners over the counter .. they help but if it is

really bad you might want to try milk of magnesia or something to help you

right now then try the stool softners after. I had a problem myself when I

first had surgery (2/23/00) try to make sure you are drinking plenty of water

too. If this doesn't help make sure you call your doctor. I don't think we

get enough bulk or fiber in our diets right now to help us out but the stool

softners will help once you go.

Good luck! Beleive me I know what you're going through. I think after

surgery we have so much we take for granted that we don't always realize we

are not going like we need to.

[Guest guest]

Jeanie,

Stool softeners WITHOUT laxatives, or Metamucil work well. If real bad, I

was told to use MOM but ASK your Dr's advice, as you're not as far out as me

right now, and I sure as hell don't want to cause any problems!

Dawn

help

this is jeanie P. has anyone had problems post op with gas and bowels i have

had such a problem i hate it as i am writing this i am bent over in pain

does anyone have any suggestions as to what they do

Re: Thoughts

> Jan,

> I'm sorry if I put fear into you or anyone else, that wasn't my

> intention. But to be blunt, no I did not have a good experience there and

it

> will be a long time before I go there again. Don't get me wrong, Dr.

Randall

> and the operating staff were absolutely wonderful and did a great job. Not

> only did I come back (more discomfort than anything) with hardly any pain

but

> they also helped quite a bit easing my fears. My problem was with the

nursing

> staff. There were a couple of them who were very good but I found most of

> them to be incompetent. They never listened to anything I said, granted

that

> I'm not a big expert or anything like that but when you try to tell them

that

> you know something is not going to work and they ignore you and you're

proven

> right, over and over again it kinds ticks you off. I think the staff was

just

> understaffed and worked too hard. But my major complaint is that they

never

> kept me informed. The words I dreaded hearing was " I'll be right back "

> because they would disappear with no explanation. Again, I don't mean to

> scare you but it was very frustrating.

> Don

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

hey ...i just got home and my home was robbed. my laptop stollen. how can i put

a hold on all emails from the group for a while til i figure out what ill do?

[Guest guest]

thank you...as per Dorothy, I just went to the web only. it was a few minutes ago. so hope it works>hey ...i just got home and my home was robbed. my laptop stollen. how can i put a hold on all emails from the group for a while til i figure out what ill do?You have to log in to www.groups,yahoo.com with your Yahoo ID and youcan edit your settings there. "No mail" is one of the optionsSorry to hear about your problemsNick------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

Hey, I just got a wonderful cop at my door saying that they caught the guys! And they found my stuff, so Ill get it all back on monday. wow, Im so lucky. whew.

Leisa>hey ...i just got home and my home was robbed. my laptop stollen. how can i put a hold on all emails from the group for a while til i figure out what ill do?You have to log in to www.groups,yahoo.com with your Yahoo ID and youcan edit your settings there. "No mail" is one of the optionsSorry to hear about your problemsNick------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

Leisa - SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO glad to hear that.  Wonderful news.

Hey, I just got a wonderful cop at my door saying that they caught the guys! And they found my stuff, so Ill get it all back on monday. wow, Im so lucky. whew.

Leisa>hey ...i just got home and my home was robbed. my laptop stollen. how can i put a hold on all emails from the group for a while til i figure out what ill do?

You have to log in to www.groups,yahoo.com with your Yahoo ID and youcan edit your settings there. " No mail " is one of the optionsSorry to hear about your problems

Nick------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

Wow, I'm so glad to hear you got your stuff back! That's awesome!

>

> >hey ...i just got home and my home was robbed. my laptop stollen. how can i

put a hold on all emails from the group for a while til i figure out what ill

do?

>

> You have to log in to www.groups,yahoo.com with your Yahoo ID and you

> can edit your settings there. " No mail " is one of the options

>

> Sorry to hear about your problems

>

> Nick

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

>