Re: Friend in Rehab

[Guest guest]

Kayleigh S wrote:

> After mulling it over and reading your responses, I think that keeping

> my mouth shut about my feelings is best. God knows I hate it if

> someone messes with my beliefs, which is exactly what AA did.

===================

Kayleigh,

If I was harsh, I apologize. I did not mean to " shout you down " , and if

the result of the ensuing exchanges made you hesitant to post your

views, that is truly regrettable. Sometimes the tone of email is not

really what the writer intended; I know I meant my comments in the

interest of exchanging ideas. Please understand that my animosity is

directed at A.A., not you.

[Guest guest]

My basic approach to the " friend in rehab " scenario is to try, at some

point, to casually say something like this: " You know, AA isn't for

everybody. For instance, it didn't work for me, and I'm doing all right

without it. You owe it to yourself to consider all the options. If you ever

decide you're interested in alternatives, I could give you some stuff to

read... " And I leave it at that. If they don't respond or get back to me

later (which they usually don't) I won't volunteer anything further.

At the point when they're in rehab they may find very well find AA quite

attractive. The simple explanation for this phenomenon is that AA has a lot

in common with staying drunk. AA members who have 'slipped' can, in fact,

become the most hard-core fundamentalist fanatical steppers you would ever

care to meet, while in rehab and for some time thereafter. It becomes a

defense mechanism.

Your friend may suddenly realize that what he is going through in rehab is

totally insane, or may go through a 'pink cloud' phase and then come to his

senses after a few months, at which point you could be helpful. Also, if he

knows you to be a perfectly reasonable, decent person who has 'recovered'

outside AA, that is going to serve as an ongoing reality check for him, and

work against the tendency to plunge into total stepzombiedom.

If anyone has had any success with a more proactive approach, I'd like to

hear about it. I was somewhat more 'evangelical' a few years back than I am

now, and was an RR group coordinator for a short spell. Dealing with

'disgruntled AA members' and people who had been through treatment was

really quite frustrating. It seemed like if they came to RR they brought

their own unique unalterable agenda, and nobody (including them) could

possibly figure out what it was.

--wally

-----Original Message-----

>Called a good friend of mine last week and his wife told me he was out

>of town. I asked when he would get back, and she laughed and said,

> " Weeks and weeks. "

>

>I was worried and called a few people to find out what had happened and

>found out he was in alcohol rehab. Called him there and he told me how

>great it all was, how many meetings he was going to and how he had to

>accept his disease. I'm really worried about him (two ways -- don't

>want him drinking, and don't want him to be in AA) and I didn't say a

>word to him about how I feel about AA.

>

>I think that's how I ought to handle it from here on in. Anybody else

>have any thoughts?

[Guest guest]

thats a tough call. as much as i despise aa, a debate about its nature

isnt what a person getting sober needs to be concerned about.

unfortuantly he has alrewady been introduced to it. i would follow up

on him when he leaves rehab and let him know there are different

programs avaliable for him when he gets out. you can let him know that

if he doesnt feel aa is for him he can try a differnt group. maybe you

can find a local alternative for him. of ccourse you could be in an

area where alternatives arent readily avaliable.

i would alow him to let me know what he feels he needs.

its really not easy to advise. when i think about the distortions he is

being told about himself it makes me cringe, and the longer it goes on

the more self wortth gets drained and replaced by self worth in

relation to how well you work a " program " . but as hard as it is to

belive there are those in aa who graviate to what they offer. maybe

your freind is one of those people. does he know you were once in aa

and not going now, and yet still doing well? maybe your example of

sobreity outside of aa is all he need see to know he could be ok if

were to leave them.

dave

> I think that's how I ought to handle it from here on in. Anybody else

> have any thoughts?

>

[Guest guest]

I think you're right to be low-key about your attitude toward AA. I

don't know if I can say this adequately in print, but my experience was

that my beliefs were taken from me and replaced by AA's beliefs. It's

disorienting, I think it's intended to weaken a person so they are more

vulnerable to AA indoctrination. To then have someone else come along

and criticize AA could be a bit overwhelming--what's a person supposed

to believe? My main point is, I agree with the way you are handling it.

Judith

" kayleigh s " wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=13845

> Called a good friend of mine last week and his wife told me he was out

> of town. I asked when he would get back, and she laughed and said,

> " Weeks and weeks. "

>

> I was worried and called a few people to find out what had happened

and

> found out he was in alcohol rehab. Called him there and he told me

how

> great it all was, how many meetings he was going to and how he had to

> accept his disease. I'm really worried about him (two ways -- don't

> want him drinking, and don't want him to be in AA) and I didn't say a

> word to him about how I feel about AA.

>

> I think that's how I ought to handle it from here on in. Anybody else

> have any thoughts?

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks to you and everyone else who replied. There have been so many

messages lately that I'm having trouble keeping track, meant to thank

you all earlier.

I've got to admit, part of my dislike for this turn of events is that I

don't want to have to hear about how great the program is every time I

talk to him in the future. Maybe that's selfish, and maybe it's just

not wanting to lose a friend. If drinking is a problem for him now, I

will certainly be happy if it is no longer a problem for him in the

future, however he accomplishes that. I just hope he doesn't develop

that one-track mentality that so many in AA seem to display.

After mulling it over and reading your responses, I think that keeping

my mouth shut about my feelings is best. God knows I hate it if

someone messes with my beliefs, which is exactly what AA did.

" janice m. young " wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=14028

> Kayleigh, trust the stats - only 5% stay in AA. He may be among the

> 95% who stop their destructive drinking and have sense enough to live

a

> normal life!

>

> jan

>

>

> " kayleigh s " wrote:

> original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=138

45

> > Called a good friend of mine last week and his wife told me he was

out

> > of town. I asked when he would get back, and she laughed and said,

> > " Weeks and weeks. "

> >

> > I was worried and called a few people to find out what had happened

> and

> > found out he was in alcohol rehab. Called him there and he told me

> how

> > great it all was, how many meetings he was going to and how he had

to

> > accept his disease. I'm really worried about him (two ways -- don't

> > want him drinking, and don't want him to be in AA) and I didn't say

a

> > word to him about how I feel about AA.

> >

> > I think that's how I ought to handle it from here on in. Anybody

else

> > have any thoughts?

> >

>

[Guest guest]

The fact that religion is so wrapped up in AA probably shields AA from

a lot of criticism. If you're a polite person, you've been raised to

watch what you say about other people's religions. You avoid talking

about God. Once you realize AA is a religion, you have to bite your

tongue every time a Stepper says something absurd. For all we know, a

lot of the respectable " authority figures " who publicly support the

Step Programs may privately think it's 95% horseshit, but they're too

polite to say so.

" kayleigh s " wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=14075

>

> After mulling it over and reading your responses, I think that keeping

> my mouth shut about my feelings is best. God knows I hate it if

> someone messes with my beliefs, which is exactly what AA did.

>

[Guest guest]

Interestingly this guy was religious before all the drinking stuff went

down, and I recall that his beliefs fit in pretty well with AA. So

maybe it will all be fine. Who knows.

" jim hankins " wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=14076

> The fact that religion is so wrapped up in AA probably shields AA from

> a lot of criticism. If you're a polite person, you've been raised to

> watch what you say about other people's religions. You avoid talking

> about God. Once you realize AA is a religion, you have to bite your

> tongue every time a Stepper says something absurd. For all we know, a

> lot of the respectable " authority figures " who publicly support the

> Step Programs may privately think it's 95% horseshit, but they're too

> polite to say so.

>

>

>

>

> " kayleigh s " wrote:

> original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=140

75

> >

> > After mulling it over and reading your responses, I think that

keeping

> > my mouth shut about my feelings is best. God knows I hate it if

> > someone messes with my beliefs, which is exactly what AA did.

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Kayleigh,

Personally, I wish I would have found out about AA

alternatives sooner. I think this fellow should at least be

made aware of the fact that they're out there. Then he can

make his own choice.

Recently had lunch with an old " party " friend. He had

joined AA, and his conversation was littered with slogans.

It was hard to stomach. You may find this to be true with

him too, though for your sake, I hope not.

Sue

>

>Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

>To: 12-step-freeeGroups

>Subject: Re: Friend in Rehab

>Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2000 08:56:52 -0800

>

>

>Interestingly this guy was religious before all the drinking stuff went

>down, and I recall that his beliefs fit in pretty well with AA. So

>maybe it will all be fine. Who knows.

>

> " jim hankins " wrote:

>original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=14076

> > The fact that religion is so wrapped up in AA probably shields AA from

> > a lot of criticism. If you're a polite person, you've been raised to

> > watch what you say about other people's religions. You avoid talking

> > about God. Once you realize AA is a religion, you have to bite your

> > tongue every time a Stepper says something absurd. For all we know, a

> > lot of the respectable " authority figures " who publicly support the

> > Step Programs may privately think it's 95% horseshit, but they're too

> > polite to say so.

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > " kayleigh s " wrote:

> > original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=140

>75

> > >

> > > After mulling it over and reading your responses, I think that

>keeping

> > > my mouth shut about my feelings is best. God knows I hate it if

> > > someone messes with my beliefs, which is exactly what AA did.

> > >

> >

>

>

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

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______________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

You didn't shut me down, . Fact is, I was recalling another

friend who relapsed for 10 years, sticking with the program the whole

way. Haven't seen her for a while, probably she's still sticking with

it.

When I suggested that perhaps AA wasn't for her, she vehemently denied

it. She has lots of program buddies who keep suggesting different

things she might be doing wrong. At the time the only alternative I

knew about was RR, and I happened to know that the RR meeting in this

town had dried up and ceased to be.

I don't think there are any alternatives around here, at least they're

not in the phone book. Also, it would not surprise me if AA treatment

nowadays warned up front against the alternatives.

robert warner wrote:

> Kayleigh,

> If I was harsh, I apologize. I did not mean to " shout you down " , and

if

> the result of the ensuing exchanges made you hesitant to post your

> views, that is truly regrettable. Sometimes the tone of email is not

> really what the writer intended; I know I meant my comments in the

> interest of exchanging ideas. Please understand that my animosity is

> directed at A.A., not you.

[Guest guest]

BINGO

Jim I think you hit it right on the head.

Re: Friend in Rehab

For all we know, a

lot of the respectable " authority figures " who publicly support the

Step Programs may privately think it's 95% horseshit, but they're too

polite to say so.

[Guest guest]

I'd be willing to bet that a goodly percentage (though not as large as

95%) of those authority figures have no clue what AA is like.

However, I have also heard people say (not authority figures), " God I'm

glad I'm not alcoholic so I don't have to believe that shit. " I don't

know where these people park their brains, they're obviously not using

them.

" hector arroyo " wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=14099

> BINGO

>

> Jim I think you hit it right on the head.

>

> Re: Friend in Rehab

> For all we know, a

> lot of the respectable " authority figures " who publicly support the

> Step Programs may privately think it's 95% horseshit, but they're too

> polite to say so.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Kayleigh;

Most of the people I know, outside the program or treatment industry,

suspect religiosity to the program but have absolutely no clue to what

extent.

They believe it's a support group (to be read Social Gathering the very

thing derailed against in meetings) of people who " have had " problems with

drinking, helping people with drinking problems overcome them. To that

extent they believe that it is a healthy organization. Pleas note the

" have had " because no one, I repeat, no one I've ever met and discussed this

issue with outside the program or treatment industry has believed that

alcoholism is a disease much less a lifelong disease. They assume you go

for awhile, stop drinking and go on with your life. They have no clue that

stagnation is part of the bargain when the program is worked according to

plan.

It's been my experience that most people see alcoholism as a personal

weakness/ failing, etc.

They don't suspect, however, that the XA perpetuates " powerlessness " and a

lack of personal responsibility. Not to mention that they happen to be the

" Church of Jesus Christ of No More X's in Hiding "

Usually when I tell them I've been going to meetings they tell me:

" You don't need that shit man "

Re: Friend in Rehab

I'd be willing to bet that a goodly percentage (though not as large as

95%) of those authority figures have no clue what AA is like.

However, I have also heard people say (not authority figures), " God I'm

glad I'm not alcoholic so I don't have to believe that shit. " I don't

know where these people park their brains, they're obviously not using

them.

[Guest guest]

Joe B wrote:

>At 08:56 26/03/00 -0800, Kayleigh S. wrote:

>>Interestingly this guy was religious before all the drinking stuff went

>>down, and I recall that his beliefs fit in pretty well with AA. So

>>maybe it will all be fine. Who knows.

>

> From that description, he sounds like the kind of person that might be

>naturally attracted to AA.

But not necessarily. Why would someone who has a faith that he is happy with

be attracted to an organisation that, judging from the vague slogans and

slimy recruitment techniques, has got something to hide? In fact, in my

various inpatient treatment experiences the person I met who had the

strongest anti-AA reaction was a Christian who was a member of a close

congregation that was supportive of his effort to get off the sauce. One day

he told me about a nightmare he had had the previous night, in which he had

been pursued and harried by cannibals who belonged to the " Hygmy-Pygmy

Society. " He said that " of course " the Hygmy-Pygmy Society was AA. He

planned to dry out, leave detox, never drink again, and never darken the

door of any AA meeting under any circumstances.

>Now if they stopped the coercion and stopped

>lying to new people about " the disease of alcoholism " , " powerlessness " and

>the availability and efficacy of alternatives, that would be the kind of

>person who would still want to join. The rest of us could find something

>better. This is how I see AA in the future- considerably smaller than it is

>now, and composed of people who chose to go there knowing what it was like

>and knowing what the other options were. Well under those circumstances it

>would have to be smaller, wouldn't it.

Perhaps smaller to the point of non-existence. Take away the disease and the

powerlessness, and you have taken away the need for eternal constant

vigilance, and huddling in basements with other alcoholics. I honestly can't

imagine why a genuinely religious person who thought a " spiritual awakening "

would be helpful would go to AA instead of looking for a renewal of the

faith he already has.

--wally

[Guest guest]

Hi Joe

This is how I see AA in the future- considerably smaller than it is

now, and composed of people who chose to go there knowing what it was like

and knowing what the other options were. Well under those circumstances it

would have to be smaller, wouldn't it.

Joe B.

Actually I think you're right. If AA could resign their hopes for

world hegemony, they could probably go back to what they originally was

meant to be.

Have you ever considered the paradox that alcoholics boasting about

their moral trangressions are insiting on being better than everone else?

Beats me!

The answer to me is to stop judging each other. Guess I'm getting religious

here, but ...

Bjørn

[Guest guest]

Joe --

Use the AA slogans against them. They're so contradictory you can find

one that rebuts almost anything an AA'er might say. I.e., the one

about doing the same thing and expecting different results when they

say only AA works, or someone needs a meeting, etc.

" joe b. " wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=14123

> At 18:20 26/03/00 +0000, you wrote:

> >Recently had lunch with an old " party " friend. He had

> > joined AA, and his conversation was littered with slogans.

> > It was hard to stomach. You may find this to be true with

> > him too, though for your sake, I hope not.

> >

> > Sue

>

>

> It would be nice to have some sort of equivalent gobbledegook to use

with

> these people. Something that like AA slogans, is close to

meaningless, not

> part of normal conversation and totally unnecessary. And confusing

and

> superior-sounding. And whenever a slogan-uttering fool utters, one

could

> come back with new slogans that confuse THEM. I'll see if I can come

up

> with something.

>

>

>

> Joe B.

>

[Guest guest]

Oh no!! not the ol' One Day at a Time slogan.

I shiver when I think of how many times I heard that as an

answer to really important questions pertaining to the

future.

Maybe their brains would short circuit if you would ask them

to answer you without using any slogans whatsoever.

Could they speak?

Sue

>

>Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

>To: 12-step-freeegroups

>Subject: Re: Friend in Rehab

>Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 21:07:00 +0200

>

>Hi Joe

>

>I like this:

>

>

> > It would be nice to have some sort of equivalent gobbledegook to use

>with

> > these people. Something that like AA slogans, is close to meaningless,

>not

> > part of normal conversation and totally unnecessary. And confusing and

> > superior-sounding. And whenever a slogan-uttering fool utters, one could

> > come back with new slogans that confuse THEM. I'll see if I can come up

> > with something.

> >

> >

> >

> > Joe B.

> >

>

>Interesting!

>

>I'll second your proposition.

>

>What about ( I'm not sure it's the right quote, but get me right)

>

> " I take one day at a time " . ??

>

>Bjørn

>

>

>

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>@Backup- Protect and Access your data any time, any where on the net.

>Try @Backup FREE and recieve 300 points from mypoints.com Install now:

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>-- Talk to your group with your own voice!

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>

______________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Once I went to a meeting on April 14 and some guy brought up a topic

about worrying because he didn't have his taxes done yet. My response

was, " Why worry? They're not due today, they're due tomorrow. " I

practically got a standing ovation because I had in effect told him to

take one day at a time.

Boy, did I regret those words sitting at my kitchen table at 7 PM on

April 15, wondering if the Post Office would really postmark all those

returns dropped in the box at 11:59 PM as " 4/15. "

I immediately gave up that slogan.

" sue styd " wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=14137

>

> Oh no!! not the ol' One Day at a Time slogan.

>

> I shiver when I think of how many times I heard that as an

> answer to really important questions pertaining to the

> future.

>

> Maybe their brains would short circuit if you would ask them

> to answer you without using any slogans whatsoever.

> Could they speak?

>

> Sue

>

>

>

>

>

> >

> >Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

> >To: 12-step-freeegroups

> >Subject: Re: Friend in Rehab

> >Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 21:07:00 +0200

> >

> >Hi Joe

> >

> >I like this:

> >

> >

> > > It would be nice to have some sort of equivalent gobbledegook to

use

> >with

> > > these people. Something that like AA slogans, is close to

meaningless,

> >not

> > > part of normal conversation and totally unnecessary. And

confusing and

> > > superior-sounding. And whenever a slogan-uttering fool utters,

one could

> > > come back with new slogans that confuse THEM. I'll see if I can

come up

> > > with something.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > Joe B.

> > >

> >

> >Interesting!

> >

> >I'll second your proposition.

> >

> >What about ( I'm not sure it's the right quote, but get me right)

> >

> > " I take one day at a time " . ??

> >

> >Bjørn

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

At 12:33 27/03/00 -0800, you wrote:

>Joe --

>

>Use the AA slogans against them. They're so contradictory you can find

>one that rebuts almost anything an AA'er might say. I.e., the one

>about doing the same thing and expecting different results when they

>say only AA works, or someone needs a meeting, etc.

Or you could twist the ones they already have to give new " insights " :

Win with the stickers

One time at a day

My best here got me thinking

One drink, one drink

I condensed more on my windows that you ever spilt

As my sponsor once said to me- can I have sex with your wife?

Or just make up new nonsense that sounds like it might mean something;

An old toad is a dry toad

Better a map than a tap

Sobriety is the marrow in the bone of contentment

God showed me how to choose curtain fabric

I'll trade you my worst ectomorph for your best mesomorph any day

etc

Joe B.

[Guest guest]

At 21:07 27/03/00 +0200, you wrote:

>Interesting!

>

>I'll second your proposition.

>

>What about ( I'm not sure it's the right quote, but get me right)

>

> " I take one day at a time " . ??

>

>Bjørn

That's a real one ( " One day at a time " ). But you can reverse it or alter

the order and it sounds just as impressive;

One time at a day,

Day one at a time.

Time day one at a,

A a time time day day one one at at,

they all seem to be saying the same thing, I think. The trick is to look

serious as you say it, as if you are watching the other person and waiting

for them to understand something. ;-)

Joe B.

[Guest guest]

> The answer to me is to stop judging each other. Guess I'm getting

> religious here, but ...

>

> Bjørn

Gosh golly Bjørn, your not going to go religious on us are you.

" Judge not dat yew not be judged " , Unless of course your an AA oldtimer

that knows it all. Imaginary worlds filled with higher powers, little

armies of rightgeousness.

Hey that's just my judgement of those so inclined anyway. Well at least

their behavior. They could change right?

[Guest guest]

Hi Jan

It was like this in OA too. Abt the only person who felt pressure not

to be able to talk abt his beliefs was Christian.

P.

> > >>Interestingly this guy was religious before all the drinking

stuff went

> > >>down, and I recall that his beliefs fit in pretty well with AA.

So

> > >>maybe it will all be fine. Who knows.

> > >

> > > From that description, he sounds like the kind of person that

might be

> > >naturally attracted to AA.

> >

> > But not necessarily. Why would someone who has a faith that he is

happy

> with

> > be attracted to an organisation that, judging from the vague

slogans and

> > slimy recruitment techniques, has got something to hide? In fact,

in my

> > various inpatient treatment experiences the person I met who had

the

> > strongest anti-AA reaction was a Christian who was a member of a

close

> > congregation that was supportive of his effort to get off the

sauce. One

> day

> > he told me about a nightmare he had had the previous night, in

which he

> had

> > been pursued and harried by cannibals who belonged to the

" Hygmy-Pygmy

> > Society. " He said that " of course " the Hygmy-Pygmy Society was

AA.

He

> > planned to dry out, leave detox, never drink again, and never

darken the

> > door of any AA meeting under any circumstances.

> >

> > >Now if they stopped the coercion and stopped

> > >lying to new people about " the disease of alcoholism " ,

" powerlessness "

> and

> > >the availability and efficacy of alternatives, that would be the

kind of

> > >person who would still want to join. The rest of us could find

something

> > >better. This is how I see AA in the future- considerably smaller

than it

> is

> > >now, and composed of people who chose to go there knowing what

it

was

> like

> > >and knowing what the other options were. Well under those

circumstances

> it

> > >would have to be smaller, wouldn't it.

> >

> > Perhaps smaller to the point of non-existence. Take away the

disease and

> the

> > powerlessness, and you have taken away the need for eternal

constant

> > vigilance, and huddling in basements with other alcoholics. I

honestly

> can't

> > imagine why a genuinely religious person who thought a " spiritual

> awakening "

> > would be helpful would go to AA instead of looking for a renewal

of the

> > faith he already has.

> >

> >

> > --wally

> >

> >

> >

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--

> > @Backup- Protect and Access your data any time, any where on the

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> > Try @Backup FREE and recieve 300 points from mypoints.com Install

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> >

> > -- 20 megs of disk space in your group's Document Vault

> > -- /docvault/12-step-free/?m=1

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Wally, did you see the post from Stuart Elliot about the other

" recovery messiah " (can't recall her name) who had her big epiphany

while smoking pot? Obviously shamanism is not dead in the new

millennium. To think millions of lives are being influenced by the

hallucinations of a couple of charismatics. Well, I guess that's

nothing new. Where would religion be without schizophrenics and

psychedelics? Not to mention the " seekers " who follow them. There's a

seeker born every minute.

> You know, that " spiritual superiority " complex always reminded me

of the

> smugness of acidheads in the sixties. Same idea, basically -- that

there is

> a secret shortcut to wisdom that dispenses with the need for any

actual

> thinking, which involves taking a drug. The real god of AA is

alcohol

> itself. You can see this sometimes in the way AAers will talk about

having

> " needed " to drink in order to " hit bottom " , and be prepared for the

steps

> and for the spiritual awakening. Also in the drink/drug histories

of 2nd and

> 3rd generation steppers -- they grow up thinking that getting

messed up and

> then joining The Program is a natural rite of passage, and by golly

they go

> ahead and do it, even if their AA parent was sober all the years

they were

> growing up. Of course, they use the " hereditary disease " copout.

>

> I've written before about the obscure but significant role that

Bill

> played in popularizing LSD and paving the way for the drug

revolution and

> the hippie phenomenon. That connection supports the interpretation

of AA as

> a cult of drug-worshippers. Alcohol-worship, needless to say, is not

> compatible with real Christianity, even though AA has borrowed a

lot of its

> terminology and practice from the Christians.

>

> --wally

>

>