Re: Fwd: Essay: Towards a New Model of Cult Control

February 24, 2000

Thanks for posting this Apple. Hope it shows up on your site for future

reference. I think one of the reasons people do assume there is no other way

but AA, or out of AA is because they are not going to something " better " . It

seems like it would be easy to feel trapped if one left say...suffering from

major depression, no new learned behavior or coping skills, supportive

healthy friends, or other ways to deal with very human problems we all

face....not just " alcoholics " .

I think I would have returned to those rooms also, even if I hated it and

saw some of the problems and contradictions. I feel very fortunate to have

built a nice life for myself that included friends I could count on, some

therapy that helped me to learn to treat myself well, a life at school, ect.

All of the things that helped me to learn to live without drugs and alcohol

wasn't nessecarliy AA....

but many of the things I listed that AA DOES NOT have a monopoly on. To

anyone struggling with the stuff that goes on in AA....I would suggest they

concentrate on setting up a life that included these things.....find some

people that are healthy and supportive, go about creating a life that looks

better than the one they had when they were using drugs or drinking. I think

many people who come crawling back to the rooms may have started drinking or

using not because of being away from the program....but because they didn't

have the new skills, coping behaviors and people in thier life who were

healthy and supportive. Of course AA then circles in for the kill blaming

the person for being incapable of thinking for themselves and " see I told

you you wouldn't make it on your own "

The people who do go out and find wonderful lives aren't around to tell

thier stories. They are out in the mainstream of life. Rebekah

Church of the Divine Rebekah

http://home.earthlink.net/~goddessofsantafe/

February 24, 2000

" rebekah la bar " wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=12781

> I think I would have returned to those rooms also, even if I hated it

and

> saw some of the problems and contradictions. I feel very fortunate to

have

> built a nice life for myself that included friends I could count on,

some

> therapy that helped me to learn to treat myself well, a life at

school, ect.

> All of the things that helped me to learn to live without drugs and

alcohol

> wasn't nessecarliy AA....

> but many of the things I listed that AA DOES NOT have a monopoly on.

It bugs me that AA has taken ownership of ideas like " one day at a

time " . I heard a good replacement for one day at a time: life is hard

by the yard, but it's a cinch by the inch.

> The people who do go out and find wonderful lives aren't around to

tell

> thier stories. They are out in the mainstream of life. Rebekah

Right on.

Judith

February 25, 2000

Hi Judith

I agree with you.

This has always just annoyed the hell out of me too. If you take many of the

core concepts that

people find useful.....and analyze them....they do not belong strictly to

AA. You can make use of them without subjecting yourself to the bs in AA.

Before I even went to AA I was seeing a counselor. I finally had the courage

to get honest about some funky behaviors I was practicing, talked about them

and made a decision to start finding different ways to get me needs met.

Yeah,,,,it felt good to start being honest with myself and talk to someone

else about it. fourth and fifth step? You don't have to buy into AA to use

this concept in your life. It helps if the person you are talking to has

some ethics and is a little healthier.

Personal writing is a great tool. I can see patterns in my thinking and

behavior. I give myself credit for being able to make my own decisions and

have learned to trust myself. How many people do you hear in AA actually

having confidence in thier own decisions?

It does feel good to get some supportive people in your life if you have

been isolated and alone. It's possible to do this without AA. Lots of people

have painful experiences in thier lives....not just so-called alcoholics.

The quality of my life improves as I strive to practice healthier

behaviors...be kinder to myself. The quality of my friendships and

relationships get better. Quite honestly, I just didn't see why I had to

spend so much time with so many people who had lives that were falling apart

for the rest of my life. To punish myself? I think I have outgrown the

feeling I deserve to suffer. I sure don't feel the compulsion to stick

around anyone who is acting out or is abusive. Don't need to or want to.

Rebekah

>It bugs me that AA has taken ownership of ideas like " one day at a

>time " . I heard a good replacement for one day at a time: life is hard

>by the yard, but it's a cinch by the inch.

>

>Judith

>

February 25, 2000

Man am i glad I found this place. I feel like I can breathe in here.

February 25, 2000

While I read Mr Young's (no he's no relation) essay, I was reminded

often of both my experience with AA and my marriage.

First of all, when one first inquires into AA either by a phone call or

walking into a meeting or talking to another member face to face,

he/she is welcomed with open arms and a great deal of attention. The

newcomer is surrounded and told, " You've come to the right place " " Let

us love you until you know how to love yourself " " Keep coming back "

And the newcomer is getting some major personal stroking. Everyone is

giving him their phone number. People seem to really want to help.

The objective, he believes, is to really help him quit drinking so

destructively. That is why he is there. He doesn't really like the

idea of not being able to drink anymore (from all the data he's read

about his drinking problem) and they add a big scoop of icing by all

the attention they are giving him (I'll use the masculine pronoun so I

don't have to keep typing he/she, him/her).

He's babied for quite some time. Finally he starts talking the talk

because some new ones are coming in after him and he really cares that

they too will feel the same pink cloud as him. So he begins to feel

like an authority.

Then the day comes when the pink cloud starts to waver, and he has a

shitty day and talks about how he's perturbed at some person, place or

thing and the first chipping at his fragile self-esteem begins. He

hears how others have felt like that but with the help of the program

they have found serenity and know how to handle their anger. And they

gently remind him that when we are angry we are not accepting and we

have to look at our part in it and he starts feeling a little ashamed

of himself and right before the meeting closes he says that his anger

was somehow his problem and that he was making a mountain out of a

molehill. He doesn't realize it but he's gotten his first 'you naughty

boy' correction. These corrections from the members are so extremely

subtle and the other side of the abuse/cult coin is that the members

don't really realize what they are doing. Like the abusive

father/husband, they are mimicking what they have been seen over and

over. They have felt the coldness and disapproval when they tried to

stretch their little sober wings. By the time the newcomer gets his

first taste of this correction, the group is his home because, in

addition, they have also subtlely convinced him that for the time being

don't hang out too much with people who may cause you to drink -

virtually anyone not in the Program, even family members. These

'outsiders' don't understand the disease you are suffering from, they

don't understand the spirituality you are gathering in the meetings,

they don't understand how hard it is not to use if alcoholic beverage

is in sight. And most importantly, they don't understand that if you

don't devote your very being to sobriety (the secret code word for The

AA Program), you will lose everything. Outsiders may make you angry

intentionally or unintentionally and that may make you drink.

So slowly the newcomer starts seeing the difference between him and

'outsiders' or normal people or 'earth' people. He starts to feel

uncomfortable with them, and gradually a little superior. AA is his

home, where he feels really and truly wanted and loved. Members often

suggest in meetings that the AA member is chosen, that their program

was divinely inspired, that if the whole world would embrace the 12

steps, there would finally be peace on earth. And he's thinking, yeah

that makes sense. When he's chastised for this or that (basically

critisizing some aspect of the Program or not following the right gurus

or not talking programspeak) he starts to feel a sense of the members

shunning him and since that's his home, he again tries with all his

very being to see his part in it and what he's doing that seem to be

turning people off to him. Like the abused wife, he's blaming himself.

When he gets back to inserting AA slogans into every paragraph of

conversation with other members, he's back on track and, hot damn, a

guru himself! And there's that enormous fear that without constant

contact with the steps, the meetings, his sponsor, the Big Book, AA

leads, AA intergroup picnics, sponsoring other members, AA social

events, he just may drink again and if so, probably ten times worse

than he ever did before.

There are women who will stay with their abusers the rest of their

lives or until, as Mr. Young stated, the abuser kicks them out (as mine

did to me). And we can't forget the battered wives such as

Simpson who, even though she divorced Orenthal, chose to live not five

minutes away from him. I think there are alot of AA members like that,

who stay on the fringes of the Program. They relapse and relapse over

and over year after year but keep near the Program because they can't

imagine life without the abuse. They go back with their tails between

their legs and in hang dog fashion, admit to their terrible deed -

drinking alcohol! The members sagely nod their heads and again he gets

strokes and strokes and admits that everything AA warned him about was

right. These kind live for that shame like the abused wife who bears

the beatings because he is so sweet afterwards. Even though my husband

and I aren't living together, I must admit that I am in no hurry to see

us divorced. Somehow in my mind we are still joined despite many miles

between us and for some odd reason I want us to joined. And also it

has crossed my mind: could I function normally with a person who may

come into my life and love me without the abuse. Right now I couldn't;

I would always be waiting for the abusive other shoe to drop and I

could not love back truly in return.

He was the type of abuser who never laid a hand on me. Strange as it

may seem, it is harder on those of us who never had a black eye or

broken rib. The verbal assaults are invisible to the naked eye and in

that sense it is much like a cult such as AA. That is why they have

the esteem in the recovery field. They don't beat us or lock us up or

force us to work 20 hours a day with no rest. The outsiders thinks

that it is a good cause, this Alcoholics Anonymous. My husband could

charm outsiders and they would have wonderful, glowing words to say

about him. They didn't understand the negative dynamics of hearing

your spouse say over and over how he wanted to divorce you. Likewise

they don't understand the dynamics of snide AA remarks such as " Oh, you

are cured now? " when you don't come to meetings anymore or only go to

very few meetings.

Oh, yes Mr. Young, 'say no more'.

Jan

(Apple, if this makes sense to you, feel free to use it on your site)

February 25, 2000

Janice,

What you (and Mr. Young) have described here closely resembles (OK exactly

resembles) the dynamic of a cult and its membership. I'm sorry to hear that

it has touched your life.

llawrence@...

Re: Fwd: Essay: Towards a New Model of " Cult

Control "

> While I read Mr Young's (no he's no relation) essay, I was reminded

> often of both my experience with AA and my marriage.

>

> First of all, when one first inquires into AA either by a phone call or

> walking into a meeting or talking to another member face to face,

> he/she is welcomed with open arms and a great deal of attention. The

> newcomer is surrounded and told, " You've come to the right place " " Let

> us love you until you know how to love yourself " " Keep coming back "

> And the newcomer is getting some major personal stroking. Everyone is

> giving him their phone number. People seem to really want to help.

> The objective, he believes, is to really help him quit drinking so

> destructively. That is why he is there. He doesn't really like the

> idea of not being able to drink anymore (from all the data he's read

> about his drinking problem) and they add a big scoop of icing by all

> the attention they are giving him (I'll use the masculine pronoun so I

> don't have to keep typing he/she, him/her).

>

> He's babied for quite some time. Finally he starts talking the talk

> because some new ones are coming in after him and he really cares that

> they too will feel the same pink cloud as him. So he begins to feel

> like an authority.

>

> Then the day comes when the pink cloud starts to waver, and he has a

> shitty day and talks about how he's perturbed at some person, place or

> thing and the first chipping at his fragile self-esteem begins. He

> hears how others have felt like that but with the help of the program

> they have found serenity and know how to handle their anger. And they

> gently remind him that when we are angry we are not accepting and we

> have to look at our part in it and he starts feeling a little ashamed

> of himself and right before the meeting closes he says that his anger

> was somehow his problem and that he was making a mountain out of a

> molehill. He doesn't realize it but he's gotten his first 'you naughty

> boy' correction. These corrections from the members are so extremely

> subtle and the other side of the abuse/cult coin is that the members

> don't really realize what they are doing. Like the abusive

> father/husband, they are mimicking what they have been seen over and

> over. They have felt the coldness and disapproval when they tried to

> stretch their little sober wings. By the time the newcomer gets his

> first taste of this correction, the group is his home because, in

> addition, they have also subtlely convinced him that for the time being

> don't hang out too much with people who may cause you to drink -

> virtually anyone not in the Program, even family members. These

> 'outsiders' don't understand the disease you are suffering from, they

> don't understand the spirituality you are gathering in the meetings,

> they don't understand how hard it is not to use if alcoholic beverage

> is in sight. And most importantly, they don't understand that if you

> don't devote your very being to sobriety (the secret code word for The

> AA Program), you will lose everything. Outsiders may make you angry

> intentionally or unintentionally and that may make you drink.

>

> So slowly the newcomer starts seeing the difference between him and

> 'outsiders' or normal people or 'earth' people. He starts to feel

> uncomfortable with them, and gradually a little superior. AA is his

> home, where he feels really and truly wanted and loved. Members often

> suggest in meetings that the AA member is chosen, that their program

> was divinely inspired, that if the whole world would embrace the 12

> steps, there would finally be peace on earth. And he's thinking, yeah

> that makes sense. When he's chastised for this or that (basically

> critisizing some aspect of the Program or not following the right gurus

> or not talking programspeak) he starts to feel a sense of the members

> shunning him and since that's his home, he again tries with all his

> very being to see his part in it and what he's doing that seem to be

> turning people off to him. Like the abused wife, he's blaming himself.

> When he gets back to inserting AA slogans into every paragraph of

> conversation with other members, he's back on track and, hot damn, a

> guru himself! And there's that enormous fear that without constant

> contact with the steps, the meetings, his sponsor, the Big Book, AA

> leads, AA intergroup picnics, sponsoring other members, AA social

> events, he just may drink again and if so, probably ten times worse

> than he ever did before.

>

> There are women who will stay with their abusers the rest of their

> lives or until, as Mr. Young stated, the abuser kicks them out (as mine

> did to me). And we can't forget the battered wives such as

> Simpson who, even though she divorced Orenthal, chose to live not five

> minutes away from him. I think there are alot of AA members like that,

> who stay on the fringes of the Program. They relapse and relapse over

> and over year after year but keep near the Program because they can't

> imagine life without the abuse. They go back with their tails between

> their legs and in hang dog fashion, admit to their terrible deed -

> drinking alcohol! The members sagely nod their heads and again he gets

> strokes and strokes and admits that everything AA warned him about was

> right. These kind live for that shame like the abused wife who bears

> the beatings because he is so sweet afterwards. Even though my husband

> and I aren't living together, I must admit that I am in no hurry to see

> us divorced. Somehow in my mind we are still joined despite many miles

> between us and for some odd reason I want us to joined. And also it

> has crossed my mind: could I function normally with a person who may

> come into my life and love me without the abuse. Right now I couldn't;

> I would always be waiting for the abusive other shoe to drop and I

> could not love back truly in return.

>

> He was the type of abuser who never laid a hand on me. Strange as it

> may seem, it is harder on those of us who never had a black eye or

> broken rib. The verbal assaults are invisible to the naked eye and in

> that sense it is much like a cult such as AA. That is why they have

> the esteem in the recovery field. They don't beat us or lock us up or

> force us to work 20 hours a day with no rest. The outsiders thinks

> that it is a good cause, this Alcoholics Anonymous. My husband could

> charm outsiders and they would have wonderful, glowing words to say

> about him. They didn't understand the negative dynamics of hearing

> your spouse say over and over how he wanted to divorce you. Likewise

> they don't understand the dynamics of snide AA remarks such as " Oh, you

> are cured now? " when you don't come to meetings anymore or only go to

> very few meetings.

>

> Oh, yes Mr. Young, 'say no more'.

>

> Jan

> (Apple, if this makes sense to you, feel free to use it on your site)

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> If you took PodiminT, Redux®, or the combination " Fen-Phen, "

> visit the OFFICIAL site. Request the Court authorized notice package

> explaining your rights under the class settlement.

> http://click./1/833/1/_/4324/_/951542481/

>

> -- Talk to your group with your own voice!

> -- /VoiceChatPage?listName=12-step-free & m=1

>

February 26, 2000

Wow! Were you walking in my moccasins? The same kind of thing has

happened to me. The only difference is it was " my " counselor who worked

with him to divorce me. I'm waiting for the day when I can tell him what

he needs to hear. His family is seeing through his insane behavior, they

see his wife, the counselor, as a " gold digger " , 4 years older than he, and

as sick as he is.

Thanks for your reminder of " what it was like the last time I 'used' " ,

Carol

----------

>

> To: 12-step-freeeGroups

> Subject: Re: Fwd: Essay: Towards a New Model of " Cult

Control "

> Date: Saturday, February 26, 2000 12:19 AM