No Subject

[Guest guest]

hey Gaudman,

I have to that at first it made me uncomfortable to read that a few here

were choosing moderation as a goal. After thinking about it , though, I

realized that abstinence was not mentioned as a requirement for this

list, and I really needed to get over the group think of AA, which was

along the the lines of, " well if they can drink, why can't I. " So

actually it turned into an experience of self empowerment to stop

comparing myself to others with drinking (drug) problems, and instead to

look at my own history without anyones " experience, strength, and hope

on the topic.

The definition you gave of powerlessness is rare in AA i.e. powerless

after the drink. All but two out of the hundreds of AAs I met believed

that powerlessness referred to power that " cunning, baffling powerful "

booze (or drugX) has to make you pick it up. It is so powerful, and the

boozer/drunk is powerless in the face of it, they need a higher power,

the groups and God, to prevent them from a relapse from their disease.

The two people I know that did not buy into this are abstinent for years

now without AA. They knew the truth all along, that they have the power

to choose to abstain or not, and they feel, like me that abstinence is

the best choice for them. \

As for AA's, " you will drink again, " this is hogwash. " Because four

people chose to try moderation on this list, does not mean that I, a 12

step free teetotaler will drink again. The choice is mine, it always

was. Unfortunately I spent years running around the 12 step treadmill of

disease and relapse. Meanwhile, my addiction was content.

I may a are breed. I am only abstinent because I left AA and the mind

set there. My first step today is that I only I have the power to choose

what to do about my drinking, drug dependence. Knowing this, my life is

manageable.

I cannot tell you how much peace there is in knowing that there will be

nobody pointing a finger ,saying you will drink' unless I surrender to

their flawed, ineffective program. No AA, I will not drink or drug

today, no matter what you tell me. I have the power over my motor

functions, and mental impulses. I am 12 step free.

Thanks for letting me rant,

Cashin

[Guest guest]

Hey list,

I should clarify that only two people I met in AA believed that

powerlessness occurred after drinking. All the others interpreted the

first step to mean that they were powerless over the choice to pick up.

I think that this viewpoint is consistent with AA literature, especially

the 12 and 12 which states that only the powerless would want to take

AA's other remaining steps. If all that was required for abstinence was

to accept they had an allergy so to speak, and they therefore need to

avoid ingestion, then nobody would need steps or groups. Perhaps some

help with impulse control, but that's about it.

Sorry for being unclear,

[Guest guest]

Gaudman,

You point out something interesting. What I think they mean is it's

always a choice is that the choice is to surrender, prey, go to meeting,

call a sponsor and on and on. These " tools " protect you from the

substance you are powerless over. But what if they told everyone that

they have the power of what they put in their body in the first place,

and that all these other actions really help in rare cases anyway, so

learn how to resist the urges, because really only you can, and get on

with your life. A kind of education, not a way of life. But that

wouldn't be AA,would it. It would be SOS or SMART. No HPs, no steps, no

gurus ,er, sponsors. And maybe adding that not everyone who has drinking

problem needs to abstain I know this is alluded to in the Big Book, but

there are no stories of successes, and it is only logical that some

people go on to a full life moderating, if that's right for them.. As

for the slip stuff, I never really got the point of comparing

drunkenness to clumsiness. Op I slipped and fell on the floor, where a

on open bottle tipped over and poured into my mouth.

I'll stop now,

[Guest guest]

Ops--sorry, auto pilot is not working today.

llawrence@...

No Subject

llawrence@...

Enter:

eGroups.com Home: /group/12-step-freewww. - Simplifying group communications

[Guest guest]

Thought folks might be interested in this post abt TM. Remind you of

anything?

P

////

When transcendental meditation became very popular in our country

[Finland] I criticized it in public, even I had never tried it. There

were many reasons. One of them was the claim that TM is suitable for

anyone. The second of their lies was, that mantras were personal. Third

of their lies was that TM has no religious roots. Today we know how TM

people have cheated and lied to people.

Few months ago one of my clients told how he was asked to pay about

$4000 for a siddhi course. When he had asked, why such a course can be so

expensive, one had explained the following reason: " When people have to use

a lot of money, they are more motivated to continue the training. "

////

Pete Watts

" ...but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end

for they do so with the approval of their own conscience...To be 'cured'

against one's will and cured of states which we may not regard as disease is

to be put on a level with those who have not yet reached the age of reason

or those who never will. "

C.S. " The Humanitarian Theory of Punishment (1949)

[Guest guest]

Gaudman;

If you're trying to figure out why you tried to believe for a couple of

years, how about me? I tried to believe from 1959-1990. I'm not

alone in this.

The only difference between me and some of my old pals is that I

happened to get out just soon enough to literally save my life, and

most of them are still at it, or dead, the majority the latter. In 30+

years I managed 11 months once, otherwise it was three to four

months.

First try with psychotherapy and my own desire and sense lasted

nine years. I look to do better this time if I live that long. I believe

my mistake was not returning for a mental/emotional health check

up every couple of years. I was in therapy the first two years and

the psychologist discharged me, but told me the door was open.

Taking advantage of that open door I think would have been a good

idea!

Dr Laing, the psychologist had two very basic objections to AA.

She said it encourages an outside locus of control in the higher

power, which defeats accomplishment and self mastery, that she

believed essential to a human life.

Secondly she said meetings forever is a terrible idea, when does

therapy end and living begin? Therapy and meetings are both a

rather false situation in that the therapist is trying to understand

me, while most folks in the real world could care less.

I think that's why many folks live in The AA Clubhouse, rather than

face any real world challenge beyond trying to earn a living. That

false atmosphere where everyone at least pretends to be interested

in my welfare, is VERY seductive. However, the cost is

astronomical and there came a day I was no longer willing to pay

it. That was the day I figuratively drew a line in the sand and began

to get better. Many are the times I've been tempted to cross back

over that line, just to be with a group of people. Later, I realized I

might not be able to defend against a group and could get sucked

back in. So I talk to my cat instead. He doesn't know from tough

love! 8^)

[Guest guest]

Guadman,

Perhaps I'm just grumpy after getting groused at in my ED group.

I feel compelled to point out that if someone was as amazingly compelled to

chastise people for " lying " as you are, they might consider your post on

powerlessness and AA a lie. And in my opinion, a dangerous lie in that

could make AA seem more reasonable than it is. If that's your personal

interpretation, that's fine, but it seemed that you represented that as

being AA's party line. That's just not true.

>

______________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

.

Yep, I think they do generally think along those lines.

Except then they tell you.. " you have a choice " and that a " slip " is

always a choice, which it isn't always.

guadman

sean p cashin wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=13946

>

>

> Hey list,

>

> I should clarify that only two people I met in AA believed that

> powerlessness occurred after drinking. All the others interpreted the

> first step to mean that they were powerless over the choice to pick

up.

> I think that this viewpoint is consistent with AA literature,

especially

> the 12 and 12 which states that only the powerless would want to take

> AA's other remaining steps. If all that was required for abstinence

was

> to accept they had an allergy so to speak, and they therefore need to

> avoid ingestion, then nobody would need steps or groups. Perhaps some

> help with impulse control, but that's about it.

>

> Sorry for being unclear,

>

[Guest guest]

great rant sean, you summed up much about how i feel about my self and

sobreity. my sobreity is my credit and reesponsibilty and i have never

had any desrie to drink agian, no obession what so ever. (despite what

AA teaches and stepper jinx's)i am not powerless to alchol, i am

empowered by choice and will not to drink. my sobreity is expression

of my own self respect and concern for my well being and and that of my

loved ones. this is my choice and to my credit. i find working on my

well being, pyhsical and metal health as my motavation is alot more

practical and more benefical than praying for a door knob's will for me

will be made clear and guide me.

dave

sean p cashin wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=13942

>

>

> hey Gaudman,

>

> I have to that at first it made me uncomfortable to read that a few

here

> were choosing moderation as a goal. After thinking about it ,

though, I

> realized that abstinence was not mentioned as a requirement for this

> list, and I really needed to get over the group think of AA, which was

> along the the lines of, " well if they can drink, why can't I. " So

> actually it turned into an experience of self empowerment to stop

> comparing myself to others with drinking (drug) problems, and instead

to

> look at my own history without anyones " experience, strength, and

hope

> on the topic.

>

> The definition you gave of powerlessness is rare in AA i.e. powerless

> after the drink. All but two out of the hundreds of AAs I met

believed

> that powerlessness referred to power that " cunning, baffling powerful "

> booze (or drugX) has to make you pick it up. It is so powerful, and

the

> boozer/drunk is powerless in the face of it, they need a higher power,

> the groups and God, to prevent them from a relapse from their

disease.

> The two people I know that did not buy into this are abstinent for

years

> now without AA. They knew the truth all along, that they have the

power

> to choose to abstain or not, and they feel, like me that abstinence is

> the best choice for them. \

>

> As for AA's, " you will drink again, " this is hogwash. " Because four

> people chose to try moderation on this list, does not mean that I, a

12

> step free teetotaler will drink again. The choice is mine, it always

> was. Unfortunately I spent years running around the 12 step

treadmill of

> disease and relapse. Meanwhile, my addiction was content.

>

> I may a are breed. I am only abstinent because I left AA and the

mind

> set there. My first step today is that I only I have the power to

choose

> what to do about my drinking, drug dependence. Knowing this, my life

is

> manageable.

>

> I cannot tell you how much peace there is in knowing that there will

be

> nobody pointing a finger ,saying you will drink' unless I surrender to

> their flawed, ineffective program. No AA, I will not drink or drug

> today, no matter what you tell me. I have the power over my motor

> functions, and mental impulses. I am 12 step free.

>

> Thanks for letting me rant,

> Cashin

>