Guest guest Posted March 7, 1999 Report Share Posted March 7, 1999 Hi all, One thing I have found very helpful in my recovery from is XA is to equal the urge to go the a 12 step group as on par with a desire to drug and drink ( abstinence is my goal.) AA and NA, with their fear tactics and the ever looming threat to drink and die play into so much crap from my past, especially learned helplessness i.e. you don't know how to abstain on your own. Your own thoughts are dangerous. Your feelings about our appraoch aren't valid. In fact feelings of anger and fear are dangerous, unhealthy and not positive. It is my opinion that this very thinking led me to my addiction. However years of 12 step meetings have left me insecure about my own thoughts. I am now in private therepy where I am learning to accept all of myself, not those parts which please XAers. So reading writers like Ken Regge are are vital. Reading others on this list is great too. I' really glad you are here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 7, 1999 Report Share Posted March 7, 1999 \ , I agree that being able to blow off steam about years of 12 step programming is vital. I am doing so in therapy, and lately here as well. The more I read, I think that a " safe site " is really not such a bad idea. The constant " but they really had good intentions such can be counterproductive. Sometimes just letting it all out is essential. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 7, 1999 Report Share Posted March 7, 1999 Hi again. Not being all that web literate, I have a question. Is there a way to have a list that cannot ( or at least) is very difficult to infiltrate. I guess I feel that if that can " t be done, we will be looking for a safe place from our safe zone, if you know what I mean. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 7, 1999 Report Share Posted March 7, 1999 Hi Louree, I would be very interested in such a list. It's a great idea. I'm going out now, but I will check tomorrow for details. I have a public e-mail at uusean@.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 3, 2000 Report Share Posted March 3, 2000 Hi, I've been reading posts here for about a month, but haven't introduced myself yet. I've been a little shy because I'm not and never have been directly involved with any XA groups. My partner of a year and half, however, has been a member of AA for nearly 10 years. It was she who introduced me to the world of AA, but as a spectator (I'm not much of a drinker). I have been struggling with it ever since, trying to make sense of what I perceive to be a counterintuitive approach to mental/physical health. She's a stepper, although a somewhat reluctant one, and has many misgivings about the program in general, but still beleives and spouts much of the rhetoric. (In fact, I never realized how much of her vocabulary was not her own until I started researching AA alternatives online and encountered so many familiar slogans!) I have enjoyed this group because it validates so many of my suspicions and concerns about the AA mindset. I have appreciated the intelligence, thoughtfulness, and humor of many who post here. But most appealing to me, and what keeps me coming back is the support many of you lend to one another. So, for what it's worth, I encourage you to splinter if you feel it will help that aspect of this group flourish...just let us know where to look you up. Many thanks, wrote: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 3, 2000 Report Share Posted March 3, 2000 , I am pleased to meet you. Welcome to Twelve Step Free. I am not surprised that your partner has a bit of reluctance around the AA program. Most people who like to think for themselves and be validated for the ability to do so begin to get uncomfortable if they are looked down upon for this individuality. That powerful message, "if you leave here you will get drunk" keeps so many people dependent on that group. It wasn't until I began to meet people, if fact lots of people, who have left "the fold" and are still alive, well, and sober, that I myself decided to give it a try. Kind of gives a new meaning to their rhetorical "happy, joyous, and free" (yes, free of scary them). llawrence@... Support Hi guys, I know that this list has had discussions before about what is and isnt ok for this list. Some people seem to prefer to keep it to a political discussion, some an intellectual one, some kidding and some people really want to be here for emotional support. While my assumption is the majority of people here dont see a problem with all this kinds of discussions going on simultaneously, it does seem that some here really would like to keep it a discussion type forum and leave the emotions out. With more an more dissenting views (steppers) coming into the folds, (which i dont have a problem with as long as everyone is civil) it is becoming an unsafe place for those of us who do want emotional support and a place to vent. Maybe it is time for us to discuss opening another list just for emotional support kinds of issues. Something like 12stepfree-support. A place thats a safe haven to discuss what ever is bothering us emotionally without offending those who dont want to hear it or getting crap from those who dont want to believe it. Whether or not some people here want to admit that 12 step groups can and have caused some people harm, there are those of us that know that for us personally it was the case. We need to be able to vent about the pain that we have experienced from our 12 step involvement and/or the personal issues that caused us all to become involved with these groups to begin with. Personally, I know what I believe about the status of 12 step groups. But what matters to me is not that everyone in the world is rid of 12 step groups or believes that 12 steps are a cult, it is that I can learn to move past my experiences with them with some sort of grace and dignity. If anyone else is interested in creating a splinter group let me know. Or if anyone feels that this is a bad idea speak up. I am more than willing to have an open and honest discussion about this. Louree Enter Ht: ft. in. Enter Wt: lbs. eGroups.com Home: /group/12-step-freewww. - Simplifying group communications eGroups.com Home: /group/12-step-freewww. - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 4, 2000 Report Share Posted March 4, 2000 Hi: I support Louree's concept of a new, supplemental 12-step free list -- a safe place for emotional support and venting [+ my 2 cents] off-limits to AA lurkers and Step evangelists/apologists -- a safe place in that sense. Intellectually, I have carried myself without a problem in business, research and academic circles, and when I'm in that mode, it's fine. But the emotional level is a vulnerable, uncontrollable state. I welcome the suggestion and acknowledgement that: 1) Abuse for some was real 2) these people have a need and right to assist each other and themselves in a Safe, protected, boundary-defined environment. 3) AA intrusion is unacceptable and indefensible in the above setting. Freedom of Speech is a Civil Right for Public Discourse. It has nothing to do with a topical, parameter-defined newsgroup. Once we as a Group (or sub-group) have established Serbian atrocities, including those who have seen and felt them with our own eyes and bodies, we do not have to debate at each meeting whether or not `It really happened,' was our fault, was not that bad, etc. We don't need to be told to go to hell. I do not need to listen to people say I'm just the same as AA, just as bad as AA. Academic discussions are interesting, and help to keep the pseudo-science and inaccuracies of Steppism in an empirical light. I continue to be interested in discussions of Addiction science, AA history, reputable research studies with sources, methodology and statistics available for review; personal accounts, sociological, medical and legal issues surrounding substance dependence, substance moderation or abstinence, and such. I think the current 12-stepfree is doing well with this, and I will stay subscribed. Ken you have done a great job! (Thanks Ken, Joe, Wally, Pete, RR, Apple, Reb F. ...) but for me, as a person thoroughly abused by Steppist parents and additional subsequent therapies/cults, and then AA for me (what a surprise!) .... I also would like a 'place' that is safe and off-limits to provocation and invasion by the Step religion. Following many years of personal experience and four years of in-depth, active investigation, I have more or less gone beyond the initial Critique of AA. I now want to comprehend and reassemble parts of my personality that were shattered. The Group ideology played a significant part in making my life worse. Even so, I had marked periods of vacillation, avoidance, rapprochement . It was indeed like the stories of wives going back to abusive husbands. The life-inhibiting, sadistic concepts, methods and ideologies of my Grouper parents, Therapists and Sponsor and their sick religion, excused inexcusable conduct, whitewashed neglect and cruelty and later made my own attempt to grow (and grow up) and change that much more difficult. My request is that there be no push for so-called Humility, but instead for Power! Dignity! Kindness, Rigor , Relaxation, Truth, Healing, … Peace and Mayhem and … Fuck Recovery, (there was no disease in the first place!) I love saying that. It's liberating. I look forward to seeing the new list take shape. PS: Louree, after your mail a while back, I tried to write you about " Growing up in the Steps, " but it bounced. It's wonderful to hear from and talk about and vent my anger about a youth messed up by AA monsters. Your posts in the past have been very comforting. Regards, P. de Arboleda <snip> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 4, 2000 Report Share Posted March 4, 2000 , You know I remembered that someone else said they grew up the AA way. I looked through my posts and I couldnt find who it was. I was wanting to talk to you about it. While I enjoy reading some of the stuff that people here talk about, sometimes I think its different for me because the indoctrination I think is so much deeper because I got it everday from the time I was very small. I dont think its as easy for me to understand that some of that stuff is bullshit. Not that I mean to say its worse for me than for anyone else here, just different. I was wondering if you felt the same way. I too believe that my personality was shattered because of AA and all that crap. I also went on to subsequent sick therapy and what I consider cult-like groups. So I think that we have a lot in common and we should seriously spend some time talking. Take care, Louree Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 5, 2000 Report Share Posted March 5, 2000 In a message dated 3/5/2000 5:12:17 PM Mountain Standard Time, snazy2@... writes: << snazy2@... >> Louree, yes, I am very interested. There is so much pain and so much I am scared to say so as to not further injure myself. Please let me know how to get on your list if that's ok. Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 5, 2000 Report Share Posted March 5, 2000 Yes , I agree with you on all counts. AA seeks to make us dependent, and those of us who came from AA families have had to struggle with the consequences of being associated with their harmful way of life. I like the points you made, and can tell that you have put much thought into them--good observations. For years I was told that it was my job to go with the flow and accept completely whatever happened to me (I was an Alateen grad. into AA). I am pleased to see that there are so many of us who have woke up to the fact that we do not have to be victims to stay sober--power is thinking for ourselves and becoming proactive. This might seem like a big duuuu to some, but after years in the caustic AA environment it was a revelation to me. I'm glad you are here--Thank you . llawrence@... Re: Louree & > Hi: > > I support Louree's concept of a new, supplemental 12-step free list -- > a safe place for emotional support and venting [+ my 2 cents] > off-limits to AA lurkers and Step evangelists/apologists -- a safe > place in that sense. > > Intellectually, I have carried myself without a problem in business, > research and academic circles, and when I'm in that mode, it's fine. > > But the emotional level is a vulnerable, uncontrollable state. I > welcome the suggestion and acknowledgement that: > > 1) Abuse for some was real > > 2) these people have a need and right to assist each other and > themselves in a Safe, protected, boundary-defined environment. > > 3) AA intrusion is unacceptable and indefensible in the above setting. > > Freedom of Speech is a Civil Right for Public Discourse. It has > nothing to do with a topical, parameter-defined newsgroup. > > Once we as a Group (or sub-group) have established Serbian atrocities, > including those who have seen and felt them with our own eyes and > bodies, we do not have to debate at each meeting whether or not `It > really happened,' was our fault, was not that bad, etc. We don't need > to be told to go to hell. > > I do not need to listen to people say I'm just the same as AA, just as > bad as AA. > > Academic discussions are interesting, and help to keep the > pseudo-science and inaccuracies of Steppism in an empirical light. I > continue to be interested in discussions of Addiction science, AA > history, reputable research studies with sources, methodology and > statistics available for review; personal accounts, sociological, > medical and legal issues surrounding substance dependence, substance > moderation or abstinence, and such. > > I think the current 12-stepfree is doing well with this, and I will > stay subscribed. > > Ken you have done a great job! (Thanks Ken, Joe, Wally, Pete, RR, > Apple, > Reb F. ...) but for me, as a person thoroughly abused by Steppist > parents and additional subsequent therapies/cults, and then AA for me > (what a surprise!) > > ... I also would like a 'place' that is safe and off-limits to > provocation and invasion by the Step religion. > > Following many years of personal experience and four years of in-depth, > active investigation, I have more or less gone beyond the initial > Critique of AA. I now want to comprehend and reassemble parts of my > personality that were shattered. The Group ideology played a > significant part in making my life worse. Even so, I had marked > periods of vacillation, avoidance, rapprochement . It was indeed like > the stories of wives going back to abusive husbands. > > The life-inhibiting, sadistic concepts, methods and ideologies of my > Grouper parents, Therapists and Sponsor and their sick religion, > excused inexcusable conduct, whitewashed neglect and cruelty and > later made my own attempt to grow (and grow up) and change that much > more difficult. > > My request is that there be no push for so-called Humility, but instead > for Power! > > Dignity! Kindness, Rigor , Relaxation, Truth, Healing, . Peace and > Mayhem and . Fuck Recovery, (there was no disease in the first place!) > > I love saying that. It's liberating. > > I look forward to seeing the new list take shape. > > PS: Louree, after your mail a while back, I tried to write you about > " Growing up in the Steps, " but it bounced. It's wonderful to hear > from and talk about and vent my anger about a youth messed up by AA > monsters. Your posts in the past have been very comforting. > > Regards, > P. de Arboleda > > <snip> > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Planning a party? iParty.com is your complete source for party planning and > supplies, with everything you need to throw the perfect party! > http://click./1/1635/1/_/4324/_/952234449/ > > -- Create a poll/survey for your group! > -- /vote?listname=12-step-free & m=1 > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 5, 2000 Report Share Posted March 5, 2000 AA and NA, with their fear tactics and > the ever looming threat to drink and die play into so much crap from my > past, especially learned helplessness i.e. you don't know how to abstain > on your own. Your own thoughts are dangerous. Your feelings about our > appraoch aren't valid. In fact feelings of anger and fear are dangerous, > unhealthy and not positive. Thats interesting, I did a paper on learned helplessness and its role in oppression when I was getting my bachelors degree. Im going to try to dig it up and see what I had to say about that then. Louree Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 5, 2000 Report Share Posted March 5, 2000 Yep , me too (therapy). The first thing my therapist asked me to do was read a book called, There is Nothing Wrong With You. I thought she was nuts. Looking back on it though, it was excellent advice. llawrence@... Re: Louree & > > > > Hi all, > > One thing I have found very helpful in my recovery from is XA is to equal > the urge to go the a 12 step group as on par with a desire to drug and > drink ( abstinence is my goal.) AA and NA, with their fear tactics and > the ever looming threat to drink and die play into so much crap from my > past, especially learned helplessness i.e. you don't know how to abstain > on your own. Your own thoughts are dangerous. Your feelings about our > appraoch aren't valid. In fact feelings of anger and fear are dangerous, > unhealthy and not positive. > > It is my opinion that this very thinking led me to my addiction. However > years of 12 step meetings have left me insecure about my own thoughts. I > am now in private therepy where I am learning to accept all of myself, > not those parts which please XAers. So reading writers like Ken Regge > are are vital. Reading others on this list is great too. I' really glad > you are here. > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Planning a party? iParty.com is your complete source for party planning and > supplies, with everything you need to throw the perfect party! > http://click./1/1635/1/_/4324/_/952299630/ > > -- Create a poll/survey for your group! > -- /vote?listname=12-step-free & m=1 > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 5, 2000 Report Share Posted March 5, 2000 , and anyone else thats interested, I just started an email list on egroups for this. It is a private group and so therefore people have to ask permisssion to join. I just did it a few seconds ago so let me figure out how to do this. The name of it is 12step-survivors. I would have used 12 step free support but considering I havent had permission from the owner of this list to do that I dont want to step on any toes. So if you are interested, let me know. Louree Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 5, 2000 Report Share Posted March 5, 2000 At 19:15 07/03/99 -0500, you wrote: >Hi again. Not being all that web literate, I have a question. Is there >a way to have a list that cannot ( or at least) is very difficult to >infiltrate. I guess I feel that if that can " t be done, we will be >looking for a safe place from our safe zone, if you know what I mean. > > It can be done but it involves someone's time. You can have a moderated list where every message is looked at by someone (the moderator) and okayed before it gets to the list and if need be it can be stopped and not get sent to the list at all. This can be a lot of work if the list gets much traffic but it is pretty safe. Or you can have a list that isn't actively moderated in that way but where anyone who is abusive or insulting or obviously is trying to stir things up gets removed quickly. This also can work quite well. Even this can take an hour a day to process- someone (a moderator) still has to read all the messages regularly. What we have here with the 12sf list is the least secure, where anyone can subscribe and stir things up and not get removed until they really do something offensive. The first two types would be difficult to infiltrate- depending on who is doing the moderating I suppose. I do this job on another list and after doing it for a while it gets to be fairly straightforward. Contrary to the mythology, a high level of intelligence is not too common among people who like to troll and abuse others on the net. In fact some of the NA-based trolls were actually trolling the NA newsgroup arna to start with (before the newsgroup arf12s existed) and attacking people there and starting pointless arguments that scared newcomers off. Assuming they believed that NA was helping people and saving lives, as NA members are supposed to believe, this deliberate disruption of an NA newsgroup by NA members is an action on the same intellectual level as someone deliberately disrupting the ambulance services' phone communications in an area where they are a cardiac patient! Really clever people. Joe B. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 5, 2000 Report Share Posted March 5, 2000 Hi Again ; You can make it safe if membership is by invitation only. If someone already in the group must know the person applying, that can also be a safeguard. The problem is keeping enough folks in such an environment. List members get bored, go on vacation etc, and first thing you know there is no one posting. " Security is never known in the animal kingdom and seldom by the sons of men. " Helen Keller Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 6, 2000 Report Share Posted March 6, 2000 wow....well said sean. guadman sean p cashin wrote: original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=12993 > > > > Hi all, > > One thing I have found very helpful in my recovery from is XA is to equal > the urge to go the a 12 step group as on par with a desire to drug and > drink ( abstinence is my goal.) AA and NA, with their fear tactics and > the ever looming threat to drink and die play into so much crap from my > past, especially learned helplessness i.e. you don't know how to abstain > on your own. Your own thoughts are dangerous. Your feelings about our > appraoch aren't valid. In fact feelings of anger and fear are dangerous, > unhealthy and not positive. > > It is my opinion that this very thinking led me to my addiction. However > years of 12 step meetings have left me insecure about my own thoughts. I > am now in private therepy where I am learning to accept all of myself, > not those parts which please XAers. So reading writers like Ken Regge > are are vital. Reading others on this list is great too. I' really glad > you are here. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 7, 2000 Report Share Posted March 7, 2000 Hi Nice to hear from you. Welcome. Something else I have found is that if you read the New Testament, you get to find where a lot of the AA dogma came from! P. sender wrote: original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=12955 > > Hi, > > I've been reading posts here for about a month, but haven't introduced myself yet. I've been a little shy because I'm not and never have been directly involved with any XA groups. My partner of a year and half, however, has been a member of AA for nearly 10 years. It was she who introduced me to the world of AA, but as a spectator (I'm not much of a drinker). I have been struggling with it ever since, trying to make sense of what I perceive to be a counterintuitive approach to mental/physical health. She's a stepper, although a somewhat reluctant one, and has many misgivings about the program in general, but still beleives and spouts much of the rhetoric. (In fact, I never realized how much of her vocabulary was not her own until I started researching AA alternatives online and encountered so many familiar slogans!) > > I have enjoyed this group because it validates so many of my suspicions and concerns about the AA mindset. I have appreciated the intelligence, thoughtfulness, and humor of many who post here. But most appealing to me, and what keeps me coming back is the support many of you lend to one another. So, for what it's worth, I encourage you to splinter if you feel it will help that aspect of this group flourish...just let us know where to look you up. > > Many thanks, > > > > wrote: > Louree,If you decide to start a new list please let me know. However, I would like to encourage you to use this list for what ever you need in the way of emotional support. The reason I came here myself is that AA, rather its member's, asked me to ignore my gut feelings and conform to a way of thinking that I found harmful. I was assured that AA was " the last house on the block " for me (I left a year ago and am still sober, so much for that theory). What I found was that house was a freakhouse that I wanted no part of. I came here to this list because I thought that this would be a safe place to address my experience in AA. It took a long time for me to decide that I would interject and add my opinion, thoughts, and empathy to this list. Judging from the responses I have seen here most the people who use this list have emotional feelings around their experience--some just seem to say it a little different than others. Which is fine with me. I got my fill of emotionphobes in AA, I see no reason to cave in to those who can't handle a bit of emotion here.AA taught me how dangerous groupthink can be, and for the most part I think that the members of this particular list would stand up for your right (at least I hope they would) to use it as a place to address any subject--epically your concerns that brought you here. Too, I would like to mention that I myself would not put too much stock in the concern that the AA people will come to this list for the purpose of harassing--although I realize that it is not outside of the realm of possibility--but most know that the consequences of doing such could be serious. > llawrence@... Support > Hi guys, I know that this list has had discussions before about what is and isnt ok for this list. Some people seem to prefer to keep it to a political discussion, some an intellectual one, some kidding and some people really want to be here for emotional support. While my assumption is the majority of people here dont see a problem with all this kinds of discussions going on simultaneously, it does seem that some here really would like to keep it a discussion type forum and leave the emotions out. With more an more dissenting views (steppers) coming into the folds, (which i dont have a problem with as long as everyone is civil) it is becoming an unsafe place for those of us who do want emotional support and a place to vent. Maybe it is time for us to discuss opening another list just for emotional support kinds of issues. Something like 12stepfree-support. A place thats a safe haven to discuss what ever is bothering us emotionally without offending those who dont want to hear it or getting crap from those who dont want to believe it. Whether or not some people here want to admit that 12 step groups can and have caused some people harm, there are those of us that know that for us personally it was the case. We need to be able to vent about the pain that we have experienced from our 12 step involvement and/or the personal issues that caused us all to become involved with these groups to begin with. Personally, I know what I believe about the status of 12 step groups. But what matters to me is not that everyone in the world is rid of 12 step groups or believes that 12 steps are a cult, it is that I can learn to move past my experiences with them with some sort of grace and dignity.If anyone else is interested in creating a splinter group let me know. Or if anyone feels that this is a bad idea speak up. I am more than willing to have an open and honest discussion about this. Louree > --------------------------------- > [input] [input] [input] [input] [input] [input] [input] Enter Ht: [input] ft. [input] in.Enter Wt: [input] lbs. [input] > eGroups.com Home: /group/12-step-free > www. - Simplifying group communications > > --------------------------------- > eGroups.com Home: /group/12-step-free > www. - Simplifying group communications > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 7, 2000 Report Share Posted March 7, 2000 Hi Me 2 posts are quite popular at the moment, so, me 2! best, P. " george price " wrote: original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=12981 > Hi: > > I support Louree's concept of a new, supplemental 12-step free list -- > a safe place for emotional support and venting [+ my 2 cents] > off-limits to AA lurkers and Step evangelists/apologists -- a safe > place in that sense. > > Intellectually, I have carried myself without a problem in business, > research and academic circles, and when I'm in that mode, it's fine. > > But the emotional level is a vulnerable, uncontrollable state. I > welcome the suggestion and acknowledgement that: > > 1) Abuse for some was real > > 2) these people have a need and right to assist each other and > themselves in a Safe, protected, boundary-defined environment. > > 3) AA intrusion is unacceptable and indefensible in the above setting. > > Freedom of Speech is a Civil Right for Public Discourse. It has > nothing to do with a topical, parameter-defined newsgroup. > > Once we as a Group (or sub-group) have established Serbian atrocities, > including those who have seen and felt them with our own eyes and > bodies, we do not have to debate at each meeting whether or not `It > really happened,' was our fault, was not that bad, etc. We don't need > to be told to go to hell. > > I do not need to listen to people say I'm just the same as AA, just as > bad as AA. > > Academic discussions are interesting, and help to keep the > pseudo-science and inaccuracies of Steppism in an empirical light. I > continue to be interested in discussions of Addiction science, AA > history, reputable research studies with sources, methodology and > statistics available for review; personal accounts, sociological, > medical and legal issues surrounding substance dependence, substance > moderation or abstinence, and such. > > I think the current 12-stepfree is doing well with this, and I will > stay subscribed. > > Ken you have done a great job! (Thanks Ken, Joe, Wally, Pete, RR, > Apple, > Reb F. ...) but for me, as a person thoroughly abused by Steppist > parents and additional subsequent therapies/cults, and then AA for me > (what a surprise!) > > ... I also would like a 'place' that is safe and off-limits to > provocation and invasion by the Step religion. > > Following many years of personal experience and four years of in-depth, > active investigation, I have more or less gone beyond the initial > Critique of AA. I now want to comprehend and reassemble parts of my > personality that were shattered. The Group ideology played a > significant part in making my life worse. Even so, I had marked > periods of vacillation, avoidance, rapprochement . It was indeed like > the stories of wives going back to abusive husbands. > > The life-inhibiting, sadistic concepts, methods and ideologies of my > Grouper parents, Therapists and Sponsor and their sick religion, > excused inexcusable conduct, whitewashed neglect and cruelty and > later made my own attempt to grow (and grow up) and change that much > more difficult. > > My request is that there be no push for so-called Humility, but instead > for Power! > > Dignity! Kindness, Rigor , Relaxation, Truth, Healing, … Peace and > Mayhem and … Fuck Recovery, (there was no disease in the first place!) > > I love saying that. It's liberating. > > I look forward to seeing the new list take shape. > > PS: Louree, after your mail a while back, I tried to write you about > " Growing up in the Steps, " but it bounced. It's wonderful to hear > from and talk about and vent my anger about a youth messed up by AA > monsters. Your posts in the past have been very comforting. > > Regards, > P. de Arboleda > > <snip> > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 7, 2000 Report Share Posted March 7, 2000 Hi Listservers provide a variety of tools listowners can use to make a list fairly safe; subscription by owner only, so that a newcomer can be " vetted " ; putting newcomers on " moderated " , so that there initial posts can be monitored before giving them unmoderated access; and the power of putting ppl back on moderated or axing them entirely. Even with these tools, it is impossible to keep out really determined invaders, but it can render them fairly impotent. P. sean p cashin wrote: original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=12998 > > > Hi again. Not being all that web literate, I have a question. Is there > a way to have a list that cannot ( or at least) is very difficult to > infiltrate. I guess I feel that if that can " t be done, we will be > looking for a safe place from our safe zone, if you know what I mean. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 10, 2000 Report Share Posted March 10, 2000 I'm interested in joining too. Carol S. >, and anyone else thats interested, > I just started an email list on egroups for this. It is a private group >and so therefore people have to ask permisssion to join. I just did it a >few seconds ago so let me figure out how to do this. The name of it is >12step-survivors. I would have used 12 step free support but considering I >havent had permission from the owner of this list to do that I dont want to >step on any toes. So if you are interested, let me know. > >Louree > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >Planning a party? iParty.com is your complete source for party planning and >supplies, with everything you need to throw the perfect party! >http://click./1/1635/1/_/4324/_/952301505/ > >-- Create a poll/survey for your group! >-- /vote?listname=12-step-free & m=1 > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 10, 2000 Report Share Posted March 10, 2000 Carol, If you would like to join, please go to and find 12step-survivors and join there. I would be more than happy to have you. Louree Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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