Re: Anabuse: a smart trick in the toolbag

[Guest guest]

-----Original Message-----Recently someone was mildly taken back that, as part of my program, I implimented the use of Anabuse.

Yes, but a bunch of others weren't taken aback and just didn't say anything. I've suggested Antabuse a couple of times in posts to this list. I stayed dry using Antabuse for a year three times, including the last time (6 years ago) that turned out to be permanent. My last shrink thought I ought to stay on it for the rest of my life, and even though I eventually dropped it I would not hesitate to resume taking it if I found myself going back to problem drinking.

--wally

[Guest guest]

"james russell" wrote:

[Guest guest]

Well, why did my message dissappear?

[Guest guest]

Tommy, perchance did you strike a button with the letters s,e,n,d on it?

"tommy perkins" wrote: original article:

Well, why did my message dissappear?

[Guest guest]

"janice m. young" wrote: original article:

Tommy, perchance did you strike a button with the letters s,e,n,d on it?

"tommy perkins" wrote:

original article:

Well, why did my message dissappear?

Hi Janice, how have you been. I didn't know you were still on the list

until recently. I'll try again, perhaps Big Brother is censoring my

anti-paternalist messages.

Tommy

[Guest guest]

"james russell" wrote: original article:

It in and of itself, Anabuse only makes alcohol a poison, useless to

consider. Paint thinner with a twist of Lemon would be about as swift.

Remember: sobriety is the priority. No matter what.

In and of itself, Antabuse is quite toxic. If an adult wants to take

it voluntarily, that's fine with me. My problem is that I was forced

to take it and was not told of its toxicity. This happens to thousands

of people each day in this country. The Therapeutic State is not about

helping or empowering people, it is about controling and infantilizing

people.

Tommy

[Guest guest]

Were you asked to see a doctor first, to check the condition of your liver?

llawrence@...

Re: Anabuse: a smart trick in the toolbag

"james russell" wrote: original article:

It in and of itself, Anabuse only makes alcohol a poison, useless to consider. Paint thinner with a twist of Lemon would be about as swift. Remember: sobriety is the priority. No matter what. In and of itself, Antabuse is quite toxic. If an adult wants to take it voluntarily, that's fine with me. My problem is that I was forced to take it and was not told of its toxicity. This happens to thousands of people each day in this country. The Therapeutic State is not about helping or empowering people, it is about controling and infantilizing people. Tommy

Enter Ht: ft.

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[Guest guest]

Greetings back at ya! How's life by the seashore? Hope the bad

weather in the Carolinas missed you.

I started back to school and just couldn't keep up with the posts. Good to be back. Thanks for remembering me. Good to read the old 'dry

drunks' posts and read the new ones. No offense with the dry drunks -

some of the steppers seem to think that's our problem. Yawn.

"tommy perkins" wrote: original article:

"janice m. young" wrote: original article:

Tommy, perchance did you strike a button with the letters s,e,n,d on it?

"tommy perkins" wrote:

original article:

Well, why did my message dissappear?

Hi Janice, how have you been. I didn't know you were still on the list

until recently. I'll try again, perhaps Big Brother is censoring my

anti-paternalist messages.

Tommy

[Guest guest]

"linda" wrote: original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=12644

> Were you asked to see a doctor first, to check the condition of your

liver?

>

> llawrence@...

> Re: Anabuse: a smart trick in the toolbag > > "james russell" wrote: original article: > > > It in and of itself, Anabuse only makes alcohol a poison, useless

to consider. Paint thinner with a twist of Lemon would be about as

swift. Remember: sobriety is the priority. No matter what. > > In and of itself, Antabuse is quite toxic. If an adult wants to

take it voluntarily, that's fine with me. My problem is that I was

forced to take it and was not told of its toxicity. This happens to

thousands of people each day in this country. The Therapeutic State is

not about helping or empowering people, it is about controling and

infantilizing people. Tommy > Anything forced upon someone without

proper warning can potentially be dangerous, or used as a tool of

control. To illustrate, a hammer can be used to build a home or smash

precious objects...

Sorry to hear you were 'forced' to succomb to treatment against your

wishes; it sounds as if the real issue was the method in wich you

received the Anabuse, not the medication itself. I have found from

personal experience that I become quite resistive to treatment when it

is not of my own design... I feel fortunate that all the decisions made

towards the goal of sobriety have been my own. For myself, the Anabuse

is not that big a deal. Then again, neither was Five rehabs'...the big

deal was the pain I caused others due to being out of control when in

the sause, or having lost a leg while attempting to drive while seeing

Six of everything. As the saying goes, I'm just living my reality;

that's where I reside. >

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

I was in the Coast Guard at the time, and yes they did a biopsy on my

liver which is standard. Forced Antabuse was and I believe still is

standard in the military. I spent a lot of time in the library of a

nearby medical school reading the studies on the adverse side effects

of the drug and since I was being discharged anyway for refusing

12-step trickment, I started hiding the pill in my mouth and spitting

out after I left the infirmary. I was caught, but that did not matter

either because they were processing me out anyway. I walked into the

Commanding Officer's office with an inch thick pile of medical studies

and left them on his desk. They not only did not punish me but stopped

forcing it upon me.

I'm not sure why my original post on this came up blank. I've never

had that happen before.

Tommy

" linda " wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=12644

> Were you asked to see a doctor first, to check the condition of your

liver?

>

> llawrence@...

> Re: Anabuse: a smart trick in the toolbag

>

>

> " james russell " wrote: original article:

>

>

> It in and of itself, Anabuse only makes alcohol a poison, useless

to consider. Paint thinner with a twist of Lemon would be about as

swift. Remember: sobriety is the priority. No matter what.

>

> In and of itself, Antabuse is quite toxic. If an adult wants to

take it voluntarily, that's fine with me. My problem is that I was

forced to take it and was not told of its toxicity. This happens to

thousands of people each day in this country. The Therapeutic State is

not about helping or empowering people, it is about controling and

infantilizing people. Tommy

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Janice,

We were lucky on the Outer Banks, but Hurricane Floyd dumped the worst

flood in the state's history only 100 miles west of us. A sad and

horrible mess.

Tommy

"janice m. young" wrote: original article:

Greetings back at ya! How's life by the seashore? Hope the bad

weather in the Carolinas missed you.

I started back to school and just couldn't keep up with the posts. Good to be back. Thanks for remembering me. Good to read the old 'dry

drunks' posts and read the new ones. No offense with the dry drunks -

some of the steppers seem to think that's our problem. Yawn.

"tommy perkins" wrote:

original article:

"janice m. young" wrote: original article:

Tommy, perchance did you strike a button with the letters s,e,n,d on it?

"tommy perkins" wrote:

original article:

Well, why did my message dissappear?

Hi Janice, how have you been. I didn't know you were still on the list

until recently. I'll try again, perhaps Big Brother is censoring my

anti-paternalist messages.

Tommy

[Guest guest]

I am relieved for you that you were able to get the real story (apparently)

on the condition of your liver before you started. I am appalled though

that any one can make a person ingest a potentially fatal drug.

I live in Portland OR and years ago (this was ten years ago so I don't know

if the story is the same now) after I was issued a ticket for driving under

the influence the court ordered me to be on probation for a year. A part of

that probation was to take Anabuse. I was not asked to see a doctor. I was

fortunate, as the pharmacist that I took the drug in front of deemed me

" pretty and petite " (I weighed about 100 lbs) so he gave my an extra small

dose. However, it did occur to me that there could be some pretty serious

liability attached to being responsible--via court or probation officer--for

the outcome of the ill effect of Anabuse. I haven't heard of any lawsuits

being pressed about this. Have you?

llawrence@...

Re: Anabuse: a smart trick in the toolbag

> >

> >

> > " james russell " wrote: original article:

> >

> >

> > It in and of itself, Anabuse only makes alcohol a poison, useless

> to consider. Paint thinner with a twist of Lemon would be about as

> swift. Remember: sobriety is the priority. No matter what.

> >

> > In and of itself, Antabuse is quite toxic. If an adult wants to

> take it voluntarily, that's fine with me. My problem is that I was

> forced to take it and was not told of its toxicity. This happens to

> thousands of people each day in this country. The Therapeutic State is

> not about helping or empowering people, it is about controling and

> infantilizing people. Tommy

> >

> >

>

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

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>

[Guest guest]

Hi Tommy:

It's not mandatory in the Navy/Marine Corps. Can't speak to the other

services.

A biopsy seems rather extreme. Especially in light of the pain involved. I

would have thought a liver function (blood) test would be sufficient to meet

the requirement.

BTW Good show on the medical research..

Re: Anabuse: a smart trick in the toolbag

Hi ,

I was in the Coast Guard at the time, and yes they did a biopsy on my

liver which is standard. Forced Antabuse was and I believe still is

standard in the military.

[Guest guest]

I'm appalled they required an invasive medical procedure followed by

requiring him to take a drug that would obviously harm him. They have no

shame. It sounds criminal to me..

Re: Anabuse: a smart trick in the toolbag

I am relieved for you that you were able to get the real story (apparently)

on the condition of your liver before you started. I am appalled though

that any one can make a person ingest a potentially fatal drug.

[Guest guest]

,

Great point. Never having been involved with such a procedure (the liver

biop.) I had no idea that it was painful, and intrusive.

llawrence@...

Re: Anabuse: a smart trick in the toolbag

>

> I am relieved for you that you were able to get the real story

(apparently)

> on the condition of your liver before you started. I am appalled though

> that any one can make a person ingest a potentially fatal drug.

>

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

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> -- Easily schedule meetings and events using the group calendar!

> -- /cal?listname=12-step-free & m=1

>

>

[Guest guest]

At 16:45 18/02/00 -0800, you wrote:

>,

>Great point. Never having been involved with such a procedure (the liver

>biop.) I had no idea that it was painful, and intrusive.

>

As a liver patient myself I know a little bit about this- in fact a liver

biopsy can be fatal. Every so often someone has one, and bleeds to death

internally. It is not really something one would want unless it was really

necessary!

Joe B.

[Guest guest]

Hi Jo,

I'm sorry to hear that you had to endure this diagnostic pain, and hope that

you are going to be alright.

llawrence@...

Re: Anabuse: a smart trick in the toolbag

> At 16:45 18/02/00 -0800, you wrote:

> >,

> >Great point. Never having been involved with such a procedure (the liver

> >biop.) I had no idea that it was painful, and intrusive.

> >

>

> As a liver patient myself I know a little bit about this- in fact a liver

> biopsy can be fatal. Every so often someone has one, and bleeds to death

> internally. It is not really something one would want unless it was really

> necessary!

>

> Joe B.

>

>

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[Guest guest]

" hector arroyo " wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=12672

> I'm appalled they required an invasive medical procedure followed by

> requiring him to take a drug that would obviously harm him. They

have no

> shame. It sounds criminal to me..

>

Only in Mother Russia, Eh, Comrad? Nyet!!!

[Guest guest]

" hector arroyo " wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=12670

> Hi Tommy:

>

> It's not mandatory in the Navy/Marine Corps. Can't speak to the other

> services.

>

> A biopsy seems rather extreme. Especially in light of the pain

involved. I

> would have thought a liver function (blood) test would be sufficient

to meet

> the requirement.

>

> BTW Good show on the medical research..

>

>

> Re: Anabuse: a smart trick in the toolbag

>

> Hi ,

>

> I was in the Coast Guard at the time, and yes they did a biopsy on my

> liver which is standard. Forced Antabuse was and I believe still is

> standard in the military.

>

I may be a bit slow, but how did this conversation evolve into a Liver

chat...? Hmmmmmmmmm...must be that pesky Ant Abuse fogging my

thinking. Pardon.

[Guest guest]

" tommy perkins " wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=12660

> Hi ,

>

> I was in the Coast Guard at the time, and yes they did a biopsy on my

> liver which is standard. Forced Antabuse was and I believe still is

> standard in the military. I spent a lot of time in the library of a

> nearby medical school reading the studies on the adverse side effects

> of the drug and since I was being discharged anyway for refusing

> 12-step trickment, I started hiding the pill in my mouth and spitting

> out after I left the infirmary. I was caught, but that did not matter

> either because they were processing me out anyway. I walked into the

> Commanding Officer's office with an inch thick pile of medical studies

> and left them on his desk. They not only did not punish me but

stopped

> forcing it upon me.

>

> I'm not sure why my original post on this came up blank. I've never

> had that happen before.

>

> Tommy

>

>

> " linda " wrote:

> original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=126

44

> > Were you asked to see a doctor first, to check the condition of your

> liver?

> >

> > In and of itself, Antabuse is quite toxic. If an adult wants to

> take it voluntarily, that's fine with me. My problem is that I was

> forced to take it and was not told of its toxicity. This happens to

> thousands of people each day in this country. The Therapeutic State is

> not about helping or empowering people, it is about controling and

> infantilizing people. Tommy

> >

> >

Jim replies:

I did not know you circumstances--sorry. For myself, as I posted

earlier, I am making, as is often the case, a careful decision as to

the benefit/ detriment of a " therapeutic " teratment. Everything is

potentially Liver toxic; the Liver is a filter. I had to put a

preventitive measure in place that, in the short and long run, would be

far less damaging to the Liver than the ETOH I was quaffing down on a

regular basis. My Liver is already pisswed off at me and and

threatening rebellion. drink was going to terminate me in short order;

with Anabuse, on the other hand, I plan on being a old geezer...can we

drop this thread now, please? It is giving me a rash...

>

[Guest guest]

" Liver chat " ? Is that a French dish?

-- Patty de Foie Gras

[Guest guest]

Hi ;

Sorry about ignoring your plea to drop the thread.

I used to work in a detox center that made antabuse mandatory

without their doctor, a DO General Practitioner excusing you. In

the year and a half I was there he never excused anyone.

One lady had such a high sensitivity to the stuff she could dip a q-

tip in her cologne, draw a line on her wrist and it would immediately

turn fire red. I got horrible headaches flying model airplanes and

found out it was the antabuse. A lowered dose solved that problem.

Then one day I assisted in treating a guy with a severe reaction.

He was on two tablets per day and managed to get down a pint of

vodka. It was I believe a suicide attempt (My judgement not the

official one.) Anyway I discovred that Benadryl and epinephrine will

stop an antibuse reaction in it's tracks. Sooo, you can guess the

rest. I'm allergic to bee stings and always have those two drugs in

an injector. Never had another antabuse reaction. Eventually I just

quit taking antabuse and quit drinking while I was at it, but it does

show the lengths I'd go to drink. All employees of the center were

ex drunks and required to take antabuse in liquid form. One time I

did stay sober 11 months taking it, even knowing the cure. That

made me think I could stay sober without it about as well.

Funny thing after antabuse and alcohol abuse for over 30 years my

liver function is great, and is about the only thing that is OK. Of

course remaining abstinent for over 9 years and watching my diet

probably helped a lot. I also got a lot of breaks in my drinking in

detox centers, jails and 4 years in The State Penitentiary.

I suppose mixed in that thirty years was 13 or 14 when I was

forcibly abstinent. In prison I had whiskey and vodka in my

possession at times, but traded it for other stuff, and didn't drink it.

I traded four pints of whiskey and 20 dollars green money for a

Gibson Broadcaster Guitar and gave it to my best friend for his

birthday. It's now a classic and worth a couple of thousand dollars.

He and I are still best friends and we've both been out since 81.

Just a little further information. The Benadryl/Epinephrine/alcohol

combination made me crazy as a bedbug. I was argumentative

and combative. That is not good when you've had a broken back

and are 5 feet six and 140 pounds.

I believe antabuse is a handle with care item, but will buy time for a

person. Stuff always made me drowsy so I took it at night before

bedtime and I'd sleep like a log. The 11 months I got on antabuse

was my longest run up to that time. I was around 35 at the time,

perhaps a bit younger. Today (Saturday) I just turned 62, so that

was a while back. 8^)

[Guest guest]

Happy Birthday to you

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Thank God for the Internet - you wouldn't have wanted to hear me sing

that jingle.

Jan

> was my longest run up to that time. I was around 35 at the time,

> perhaps a bit younger. Today (Saturday) I just turned 62, so that

> was a while back. 8^)

>

>

[Guest guest]

" gary d hall " wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=12693

> Hi ;

>

> Sorry about ignoring your plea to drop the thread.

I'm sorry too , but I feel like I need to respond to 's

question and 's comment. Then I'll drop it.

I don't know if there have been any lawsuits concerning forced

Antabuse. It's a very pleasant surprise that the Marines/Navy no

longer force it. My trickment was Navy (NAS Millington) and out of

about 30 " patients " about half were Marines, half Navy, and two Coast

Guard including myself. That was in 1985 and liquid Antabuse was

forced in trickment and pill form for 6 mo. afterward.

And yes, and actual biopsy was required--long hollow needle.

Perhaps things are getting better, but when will they learn about the

Religion Clauses of the Constitution?

I'll have more on the military in a week or so. I'm considering my own

web site, " Forced AA in the U.S. Military is Unconstitutional. " I've

gotten a few inquiries from the Norfolk based fleet already--just by

word of mouth.

Tommy

[Guest guest]

Tommy:

I've got most of the paperwork for my short stay in Pensacola for treatment.

If you like I'll make a list of what I've got and forward to you if it will

help for your site.

Also

There is a navy site out there which has among others SecNav Instructions on

just about everything. Since it's government stuff it has no copyright

protections so you could take and offer any and all of it you wish. I was

reviewing one a few weeks ago that gave the Navy/Marine Corps the authority

to discharge members who failed or refused treatment for drug/alcohol abuse.

I'll try and get you the url. Just lost my links so I've got to look around

for it.

Re: Anabuse: a smart trick in the toolbag

" gary d hall " wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start_693

> Hi ;

>

> Sorry about ignoring your plea to drop the thread.

I'm sorry too , but I feel like I need to respond to 's question

and 's comment. Then I'll drop it.

I don't know if there have been any lawsuits concerning forced Antabuse.

It's a very pleasant surprise that the Marines/Navy no longer force it. My

trickment was Navy (NAS Millington) and out of about 30 " patients " about

half were Marines, half Navy, and two Coast Guard including myself. That

was in 1985 and liquid Antabuse was forced in trickment and pill form for 6

mo. afterward.

And yes, and actual biopsy was required-long hollow needle.

Perhaps things are getting better, but when will they learn about the

Religion Clauses of the Constitution?

I'll have more on the military in a week or so. I'm considering my own web

site, " Forced AA in the U.S. Military is Unconstitutional. " I've gotten a

few inquiries from the Norfolk based fleet already-just by word of mouth.

Tommy

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