Guest guest Posted December 19, 2001 Report Share Posted December 19, 2001 For those of you who have argued that college degrees aren't important, I submit the following excerpt from Daley vs. City of Houston (the Fire/EMS overtime pay suit) located at: http://www.ca5.uscourts.gov/Opinions/pub/00/00-20770-cv0.htm. For convenience, court writing is in blue, highlights in red, my words in black. Also, I've been following this series of cases for a *long* time - my dad's the president of IAFF Local 58, Dallas FireFighter's Association, and they were involved in several similar suits that reached the fifth circuit. So while I'm not an attorney, and I don't work for Houston, I've sat up many nights discussing the in's and out's of this at the station with my dad, his guys, etc. I'm ashamed to say that in general, most EMS workers don't even have a clue as to what the regulations are, much less the impact of the rulings. Mike 29 C.F.R. § 541.3. This definition consists of two prongs: the education prong and the discretion prong. If an employer proves that his employee satisfies both prongs, the employee is not entitled to overtime compensation because he falls within the Learned Professional exemption. The City fails to show that the Daley Plaintiffs satisfy either prong of this exemption. Here, the city is arguing that even if EMS workers don't meet the " fire safety employee " exemption (commonly known as 207(k)), they meet the Learned Professional exemption. The court makes a decision in this section as to whether or not the Learned Professional exemption applies to EMS personnel. First, the Daley Plaintiffs lack the educational background to satisfy the education prong of the Learned Professional exemption. DOL regulations note that " [t]he typical symbol of the [required] professional training and the best prima facie evidence of its possession is, of course, the appropriate academic degree. " 29 C.F.R. § 541.301(e)(1). City regulations do not require a college degree to qualify as a paramedic or EMT. The Department requires EMTs to complete only 200 hours of didactic training, clinical experience, and field internship and requires paramedics to complete only 880 hours of specialized training in didactic courses, clinical experience, and field internship. The only court to directly address this issue held that requirements such as these were insufficient to meet the education prong. See Quirk v. Balt. County, 895 F. Supp. 773 (D.Md. 1995). In Quirk, the court ruled that, unlike nurses who must complete three academic years of study in an accredited college plus a fourth year of professional course work in a school of medical technology, paramedics, the highest level EMT, did not have the necessary education to be " learned professionals " under the regulations because they were only required to achieve 600 hours of classroom and field training. Quirk, 895 F. Supp. at 785. Not having a college degree as a requirement pretty much disqualified EMS personnel as " Learned Professionals. " Okay, we all knew that being a paramedic never required a degree in Texas, and we successfully killed the degree requirement for licensure. In doing that, we (EMS personnel, speficially paramedics, in Texas) also killed our chance to at least be recognized under labor laws as Learned Professionals. But read on... this gets better. Although no Fifth Circuit case analyzes whether these EMT/paramedic requirements satisfy the education prong of the Learned Professional exemption, we applied the exemption in Owsley v. San Indep. Sch. Dist., 187 F.3d 521 (5th Cir. 1999). The court held that athletic trainers are " learned professionals " exempt from the FLSA overtime compensation provisions. Id. at 527. The court found that the trainers satisfied the education prong because they were required to achieve, at a minimum, the following: (1) a bachelor's degree in any field; (2) 1800 hours apprenticeship over a three-year period; (3) completion of five 3-hour credit college courses in specific areas of study; and (4) a C.P.R. test. Id. at 524-25. The Owsley panel analogized the trainers' educational training and background to those of airline pilots who, while lacking the requirement of a college degree, were required to " complete a course of instruction to learn the regulations governing pilots, basic aerodynamic and flight principles, and numerous airplane operations. " Id. at 525. The court cited nurses, accountants, and " actuarial computants, " as other examples of " learned professionals. " Id. In this case, the EMT/paramedic educational requirements are much less rigorous than those required for athletic trainers. Moreover, the educational backgrounds of EMS workers are not as extensive as those of any of the professionals cited as examples by the panel in Owsley. For these reasons, we find that the Daley Plaintiffs do not satisfy the education prong of the Learned Professional exemption. Athletic Traininers are Learned Professionals because they have a Bachelor's Degree in *any field*. And to quote, " the educational backgrounds of EMS workers are not as extensive as those of any of the professionals cited as examples by the panel in Owsley. " It's not a comparative analysis, folks - not that trainers, pilots, nurses or accountants are any more 'professional' (note the *single* quote, not the double quote here). It's that they have a much more definitive requirement for background education. Something which EMS professionals in Texas have rejected time and time again. I'll be intererested to see what people think about paramedic licensure now, and what people think about degree requirements for paramedics. What do you think? Personally, I recognize the need for EMT-B's and EMT-I's to be able to become certified and provide care to those in need without the requirement of a college degree. But I wholeheartedly support the requirement of at least an AAS degree for *any* new paramedic... Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 19, 2001 Report Share Posted December 19, 2001 Crap. The list stripped my HTML and coloring. Okay, I'll highlight *my* words with asterisks... Mike Is a college degree important? ***For those of you who have argued that college degrees aren't important, I submit the following excerpt from Daley vs. City of Houston (the Fire/EMS overtime pay suit) located at: http://www.ca5.uscourts.gov/Opinions/pub/00/00-20770-cv0.htm. For convenience, court writing is in blue, highlights in red, my words in black. Also, I've been following this series of cases for a *long* time - my dad's the president of IAFF Local 58, Dallas FireFighter's Association, and they were involved in several similar suits that reached the fifth circuit. So while I'm not an attorney, and I don't work for Houston, I've sat up many nights discussing the in's and out's of this at the station with my dad, his guys, etc. I'm ashamed to say that in general, most EMS workers don't even have a clue as to what the regulations are, much less the impact of the rulings. Mike *** 29 C.F.R. § 541.3. This definition consists of two prongs: the education prong and the discretion prong. If an employer proves that his employee satisfies both prongs, the employee is not entitled to overtime compensation because he falls within the Learned Professional exemption. The City fails to show that the Daley Plaintiffs satisfy either prong of this exemption. ***Here, the city is arguing that even if EMS workers don't meet the " fire safety employee " exemption (commonly known as 207(k)), they meet the Learned Professional exemption. The court makes a decision in this section as to whether or not the Learned Professional exemption applies to EMS personnel.*** First, the Daley Plaintiffs lack the educational background to satisfy the education prong of the Learned Professional exemption. DOL regulations note that " [t]he typical symbol of the [required] professional training and the best prima facie evidence of its possession is, of course, the appropriate academic degree. " 29 C.F.R. § 541.301(e)(1). City regulations do not require a college degree to qualify as a paramedic or EMT. The Department requires EMTs to complete only 200 hours of didactic training, clinical experience, and field internship and requires paramedics to complete only 880 hours of specialized training in didactic courses, clinical experience, and field internship. The only court to directly address this issue held that requirements such as these were insufficient to meet the education prong. See Quirk v. Balt. County, 895 F. Supp. 773 (D.Md. 1995). In Quirk, the court ruled that, unlike nurses who must complete three academic years of study in an accredited college plus a fourth year of professional course work in a school of medical technology, paramedics, the highest level EMT, did not have the necessary education to be " learned professionals " under the regulations because they were only required to achieve 600 hours of classroom and field training. Quirk, 895 F. Supp. at 785. ***Not having a college degree as a requirement pretty much disqualified EMS personnel as " Learned Professionals. " Okay, we all knew that being a paramedic never required a degree in Texas, and we successfully killed the degree requirement for licensure. In doing that, we (EMS personnel, speficially paramedics, in Texas) also killed our chance to at least be recognized under labor laws as Learned Professionals. But read on... this gets better.*** Although no Fifth Circuit case analyzes whether these EMT/paramedic requirements satisfy the education prong of the Learned Professional exemption, we applied the exemption in Owsley v. San Indep. Sch. Dist., 187 F.3d 521 (5th Cir. 1999). The court held that athletic trainers are " learned professionals " exempt from the FLSA overtime compensation provisions. Id. at 527. The court found that the trainers satisfied the education prong because they were required to achieve, at a minimum, the following: (1) a bachelor's degree in any field; (2) 1800 hours apprenticeship over a three-year period; (3) completion of five 3-hour credit college courses in specific areas of study; and (4) a C.P.R. test. Id. at 524-25. The Owsley panel analogized the trainers' educational training and background to those of airline pilots who, while lacking the requirement of a college degree, were required to " complete a course of instruction to learn the regulations governing pilots, basic aerodynamic and flight principles, and numerous airplane operations. " Id. at 525. The court cited nurses, accountants, and " actuarial computants, " as other examples of " learned professionals. " Id. In this case, the EMT/paramedic educational requirements are much less rigorous than those required for athletic trainers. Moreover, the educational backgrounds of EMS workers are not as extensive as those of any of the professionals cited as examples by the panel in Owsley. For these reasons, we find that the Daley Plaintiffs do not satisfy the education prong of the Learned Professional exemption. ***Athletic Traininers are Learned Professionals because they have a Bachelor's Degree in *any field*. And to quote, " the educational backgrounds of EMS workers are not as extensive as those of any of the professionals cited as examples by the panel in Owsley. " It's not a comparative analysis, folks - not that trainers, pilots, nurses or accountants are any more 'professional' (note the *single* quote, not the double quote here). It's that they have a much more definitive requirement for background education. Something which EMS professionals in Texas have rejected time and time again. I'll be intererested to see what people think about paramedic licensure now, and what people think about degree requirements for paramedics.*** ***What do you think? Personally, I recognize the need for EMT-B's and EMT-I's to be able to become certified and provide care to those in need without the requirement of a college degree. But I wholeheartedly support the requirement of at least an AAS degree for *any* new paramedic... Mike *** Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 19, 2001 Report Share Posted December 19, 2001 Well said Mike; too bad it takes a legal opinion and not a proactive stance on our part to endorse the need for education. God, bless America No evil can happen to a good man, either in life or after death. Plato (428 BC - 348 BC), Dialogues, Apology Larry RN NREMTP Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 19, 2001 Report Share Posted December 19, 2001 Ok I'll bite.. FYI My degree is health related (although in animals/not people) and I completed many hours of physiology, bichem, A-P, genetics, pharmacology etc on the road to my Master of Science in Reproductive Physiology (the same field of AI, frozen zoos and cloning). That said, after I completed all my requesite college degrees, several things occurred. 1. My debt load from school loans far exceeded my ability to pay them on the pay EMS offered. This is a factor to be considered in this arguement. It did not benefit me monetarily at all although it helped in the understanding of the physical process of disease and trauma. Now that we have so much more of a linkage (if you will) via bioterrorism and animal diseases, my degree is probably more relevant than I ever thought it would be. 2. Even though I had both a B.S. and M.S., and even though the school district in Presidio contacted me (versus the other way around) to be their summer school nurse, I was still only recognized and paid according to an LVN standard, which I considered to be a slap in the face given my experience as an paramedic (almost a decade) and my degree. The same thing occured in the RHC and in TDH public health office..basically although we had (and still have) and acute shortage of healthcare providers (RN's included), the paramedics in these rural areas are treated poorly. When one considers that only the EMS providers had ever successfully attained ACLS, PALS, BTLS, and other " bells and whistles " courses for a period of 8 of those years (things changed some later), this makes it all the more bizarre. So what exactly are the hoops that must be jumped through for " professional recognition " and when exactly is that supposed to come to pass? 3. All things considered, I am glad I made the necessary sacrifices for my degree; Certainly I understood a lot on the phyiological and biochemical level that I did not before going to school. Unfortunately I am now out of the field, so did it really benefit me as a paramedic or did it just open a door I could leave through? Until things change in Texas EMS I am afraid it will be the latter answer. It is easy to guestimate the theoritical outcome of the changes we are trying to make. I agree that paramedics should have a degree..we are handling way to much responsibility without adequate understanding without the prolonged immersion in basic phyiology and biochemistry. EMS has been made idiot resistant by alot of the prepackaged meds in the convient dosages, but things still get screwed up a lot. And frankly, there needs to be a stronger weeding process for paramedics..we all know those who scare us with their ability to misread a situation..how did they make it through in the first place and how do you stop them once they are out there. One misstep from them and it is makes headlines, which overshadows the hundreds of sure steps that those around them are making. just a nickel deposit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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