Evil vs brain-damage (Re: choice--annie)

[Guest guest]

I agree with most of this. BPDs engage in a lot of behavior

beyond rage. Some of what they do just harms themselves, some of

it hurts others and some of it would not necessarily be harmful

on its own but becomes harmful combined with the rest. My nada's

other behaviors do a lot more damage in the long run than her

rages. She has a history of slutty behavior but she can't

maintain serious relationships or even real friendships because

nobody can ever satisfy her and because she perceives everything

in the worst possible way, she never has enough money because

she's constantly buying " pretties " for herself to try to make

herself feel better, she's terrible at planning for the future

because she's unrealistic about what is likely to happen and she

carries around the weight of every little perceived slight that

has been done to her for pretty much all of her life. Her life

has been miserable, not because other people did things to her

as she believes but because she's made plenty of bad choices and

spent her whole life reacting like other people were doing bad

things to her. I don't think she's capable of being happy for

long. Some of her actions have been evil. Whether or not that

makes her an evil person is a harder question for me to answer.

I don't believe she intends to be evil most of the time and it

seems to me that intention does matter to some extent when

determining whether someone is evil. Her thinking and

decision-making can be very warped. She doesn't see that what

she wants or thinks is good for herself is going to harm others

in many cases. I think other people are like ants to her. She

steps on them without really noticing they're there. Or she just

sees them as feelingless objects to be used. When she does set

out to harm others it is only after she believes they hurt her

first even though she's usually wrong about that. Even her rages

are always provoked by something in her mind. They may seem to

come out of nowhere, but there's always something behind them

even if it isn't anything the rest of us would care about. If

she didn't do things to cause so much misery for me and others I

care about, I'd be inclined to regard her as pathetic more than

evil. Her life really is its own punishment but it is hard to

get past the results of the things she's done enough to feel

sorry for her problems. Some of what she's done is unforgivable

in my opinion. Sitting in judgement of her isn't part of what I

need to do though, so I don't worry about whether or not she's

evil very much. I'm more concerned with doing what I need to do

to protect myself and those I care about. She is what she is and

that's not going to change so I have to deal with her behavior

as best I can. I've gotten a lot better at protecting myself

since I came to understand what BPD involves. Whether she's evil

or not is a question that God can deal with if he really exists.

At 12:55 PM 04/14/2009 W. A. Max wrote:

>Annie,

>

>I am not really sure how to better explain my thinking to you.

>

>I think the basic difference is that I don't see only the bad

>behavior as bpd. My mom is bpd all the time. Her good

>behavior is a part of it and feeds it as much as the bad

>behavior. Bpd is a pervasive pattern of thinking, feeling, and

>behaving. She isn't just bpd when she is abusive. The abusive

>behavior is a part of what she does about it, but she does a

>lot of things about it and only some of them are abusive, but

>almost all of what she does actually make the illness worse

>even though it allows her to cope in the short-term.

>

>What makes her bpd isn't the rage. What makes her bpd is her

>dysregulated emotions and her inability to see herself as a

>complete, whole, and separate person with both good and bad

>qualities. I think because our nadas sometimes choose not to

>be abusive in order to cope with their illness when they don't

>see it as serving them, it seems like their abusiveness is

>optional and to some extent it is. But the fact is that they

>need to do something in order to cope with periodically feeling

>like they will be annihilated by their feelings and they will

>do whatever seems like it will work at that particular

>moment--whether it is raging or sucking up; They cannot simply

>sit with their feelings the way you or I might. What they

>choose to do to cope is nearly always harmful to them--whether

>it's rage, self-harm, risky behavior, casual sex, drug abuse, a

>new best friend or a new hobby. But only some of those

>behaviors are immediately harmful to others.

> The problem is that the more the disease is allowed to get

> worse, the more intense the management efforts need to be and

> the more likely our nadas are to engage in behaviors that harm

> others.

>

>What allows my mother to harm others is no different than what

>allows anyone to harm others: she engages in all of the same

>thought processes that anyone must engage in before they harm

>another human being. She must first see the other as less

>valuable or worthy of care, then as either deserving to be

>harmed (because they have been bad) or as not actually being

>harmed by what she is doing, and then she must also see the

>harm as being necessary to her own survival. Whether you see

>this as evil or merely human is an individual decision, but my

>mother is not alone in this. Most people are willing to harm

>others under certain conditions. The difference between my

>mother and other people is not her capacity to do terrible

>things--that is something that most people share. What sets

>her apart is the fragility in her own mind of her existence,

>which is what leads her to think harming others is necessary

>and acceptable much more often and under

> less dire circumstances than other people would normally

> think.

>

>I am not excusing her for anything she has done. My compassion

>for her is really for my benefit--not hers. I won't be her

>conscience, even if it is only in my own mind. She can carry

>her own guilt for herself. I won't carry it for her. My life

>is enough of a burden and a responsibility for me. I can't

>handle anyone else's.

>

>I also think my mother's life is its own punishment. I could

>not have designed any better hell for her than what she has

>chosen for herself. Just getting through a single day in her

>head would be enough to drive me out of my mind. I can't

>imagine a worse fate than just having to be her every single

>day.

--

Katrina

[Guest guest]

Boy, this group has been active! I've been out of the loop for a couple

of weeks, so sorry if I'm lagging with the topics.

I too have struggled with the question of PD's and choice (my nada is

bpd/npd, or a " walking cluster b " ) and the need to find reasons to

forgive my nada for her actions and achieve " compassionate detachment. "

I tend to agree a lot with Ashana's perspective, although my nada was

not physically abusive in our younger years. Since my nada is

definitely BPD/NPD, I see more of the narcissistic behaviors, like your

nada, Annie, so that may explain some of the differences.

I've eventually come to this perspective of what is choice vs illness:

She is mentally ill, tho' did not choose to be. She has absolutely no

clue what her true mental illness is - she thinks that the depression

she was diagnosed with justifies it all. I've always known on some

level that she is in severe emotional pain and that the pain is very

real to her. It practically oozes out of her and occasionally erupts

(Mt. St. nada name is a good one!) Early on, I " explained " much of her

pain/illness based on what I knew of the traumas she had experienced as

a child. (some big ones). Later, I came to see that she truly believes

her role as victim, that she is the one that everything is being done

" TO, " although quite the opposite is true. Her delusion is total and

complete. Her perception is her absolute reality - no matter how

distorted it is. Her illness is what causes that distorted view. She

cannot see that and cannot change it. She cannot see that she can bring

about a change in her pain because she cannot see that her actions (not

everyone else's) are what are causing it. So, she strikes outward.

Yes, she does have a choice in what she does - she chooses to be nasty

to others and say the things she does. She chooses to berate, belittle

and attack. She has chosen to attack physically at times (although she

has since " rewritten " those events to her being the one attacked). So

what she says and does, she is truly feeling the moment she does it.

They are her emotions. They are her. And when they swing the other way

(if they do) toward positive feelings and actions, those are her, too.

So, in short, the emotions are hers, but magnified because of the

illness. (The most apt description I've heard is Dr. Linehan's: BPD's

are the emotional equivalent of burn victims - they have no emotional

skin.) Nada's actions are hers, but in her distorted reality (due to the

mental illness), they are justified or necessary. I don't see her as

evil - although she certainly borders on psychotic at times, and some of

her actions have been monstrous. I don't hate her - I hate her

illness. And I hate her behavior - and the way she treats people. Many

times, she's an embarrassment to our family, and we feel a need to

apologize for her actions. She's well beyond the ability to fool anyone

she comes in contact with anymore. I rarely can remember the affection

or love I used to feel for her - more often than not, she repulses me.

That's hard to say. Yet, I do feel compassion for her (at least most of

the time) - the same compassion I would feel for any tortured creature.

That does not mean I tolerate unacceptable behaviors from her though.

No way. Not ever again.

When I've tried to explain it to others who have no experience with

PD's, I use this analogy: A person with BPD is like a wounded caged

wild animal. No matter how carefully or gently you approach it, no

matter how good your intentions toward it, no matter how much you

genuinely want to help it or care for it - it can't see that. It can

only see and feel its own pain and fear. It's instinct is to believe

that you mean it more harm, so if you try to get " near " it , it will

strike out at you to defend itself because that is all it knows. The

more it strikes out, the longer it stays in that caged hell - without

help, and it's wounds just fester and grow. It cannot and will never

see that it is causing itself further harm. -------- It's possible to

feel compassion for that wounded animal and sadness for its situation.

That does not mean you can or should put yourself in harm's way by

putting yourself inside the cage with it. The healthy choice is to stay

on the outside (and maybe provide food and water - from a distance, or

through the bars!)

Analogy aside, does my understanding of nada's illness mean I'm immune

to her? No, she can still affect me -- I still sometimes get the

" fight or flight " adrenaline rush when she starts a confrontation (via

phone), but I'm still able to stand firm, keep the boundaries up and not

let her get away with her attempted twists and turns and attacks. I'm

so over taking her bait, no matter how hard she tries. It does drive

her crazy, uh, crazier.

And, I don't fear her, but I do get occasional bouts of anxiety - it's

the programmed-in feelings from past experiences that I realize I've

never quite processed through and disconnected from the present, but I'm

working on those, too.

A lot of the anger and hatred many of you are feeling is normal and

totally justified. I think you have to go through that, much like

grieving, to get to a place of detachment. It's good to get it out of

you. I have certainly felt it all -- though not the fear associated

with physical abuse. I didn't have to deal with that, so I can't say

how that would have affected me differently ... and I honestly believe

my grandfather would never have tolerated physical abuse of his

grandkids by from my mother, no matter how much else they put up with

from her. I have many times just hoped my mother would die, long before

she developed real illnesses, just to put us all out of her pain. I

have even told her, after one of her suicide threats (trust me, always

emotional blackmail attempts, not serious threats), that if she was

going to attempt suicide, to at least get it right for once. Yeah, it

can bring out the nasty in us, too. Do I feel ashamed of those

feelings? No, not really. They are honest feelings. Do I feel sad

that I ever had cause to feel them? Yes.

Now, nada is in a nursing facility, and in spite of expressing fear at

reaching the end of her years, she continues to contribute to her own

slow demise. She practically never leaves the bed, refuses physical

therapy, refuses certain medications and finds reasons to avoid bathing

and scheduled outside doctor's appointments, etc. She has diabetes and

high BP, but both have been made stable. She's likely to end up having

a heart attack or stroke or pneumonia. I feel absolutely no

responsibility other than to see that she is clothed, sheltered and fed,

and treated with the care that all residents are entitled to. That's

it. The only hook she has at this point is my brother who is the family

point of contact. He's the one I'm really concerned about.

I wish you all godspeed in getting through and past the hurt, and fear

and anger and to a safe place both inside and outside of yourselves.

It's a hard journey, and will probably never completely end. I don't

think any of us will ever be 100% free of our BP/NP's, even after they

are gone. They are a part of our life experiences, so a part of us. We

all suffered a great loss, long before we ever recognized it. But,

hopefully, we will all reach a place where we can look at what we've

experienced and realize that it has made us stronger just for having

survived it.

And, one important thing to reiterate that Ashana said (and very well,

as she always does), is that reaching a place of compassion (and yes,

even forgiveness) is for you - not your nada/fada. It is for your

healing benefit, not theirs. Very important difference.

Best to all,

Suzy

[Guest guest]

EXACTLY!!!

Jackie

The only thing I like about the wild animal analogy is that it tells me to

stay away, or I will get attacked. That is true. However, with a wild

animal, this would be the case with any human who approached. With nada,

it's just me and my sister (and my F before he died).

Joanna

PS My nada was abused as a child, physically and emotionally, maybe

sexually. But I was abused too, and I don't terrorize my child.

[Guest guest]

The injured animal analogy is just a way of trying to explain to others

(at least to those I care to) -- who don't understand BP/NP's and/or the

need to stay away from them -- why I do. It's not perfect, but somewhat

gets the point across (and it tends to apply more to the raging/acting

out actions). I.e. you can care about something/someone, but that

doesn't mean you have to get near enough to allow harm to yourself. I

totally agree that BPs/NPs choose their actions. They know they are

saying and doing hateful things when they do. They just feel justified

in their distorted view. That's a degree of twisted sickness that's

pretty hard to get your mind around - given the things that they do.

That does NOT mean it is a free pass - as someone else said here - not

by ANY measure. And if in my rambling I gave an impression different

from that, let me clarify that now. My nada has actually tried to " use "

her dx. with depression as a " free pass " , i.e. " My doctor says I'm

clinically depressed, so everyone has to accept that that's just the way

I am. " She totally bypassed the " tools " he had given her to help her

get better. My response (not to her liking) was " Yes, I accept that you

are depressed and wish that were different. However, that does not mean

you get to treat others any way you feel like and it be okay. "

And to be honest, I don't know if I would ever have been able to reach

any feelings of compassion toward my nada if she had been physically

abusive in my early life - as so many of you have experienced. To get

beyond that takes a great deal of strength. I also don't know if I

would have reached the place that I have if I had been an only child.

Although I'm the youngest, and the only daughter, I've always felt a

fierce protectiveness toward others that I care about. I'm sure that's

a form of compensation for the lack of protection/nurturing I received.

It's that protectiveness toward my brothers and other family members

that ultimately caused me to put firm boundaries in place with nada -

after my initial emotional break from her. Becoming a mother myself

made that protectiveness stronger many times over.

It is one of the true perversities of this illness that BPs attack those

that they are closest to. The one who is acting as caretaker for my

nada and the one she should be most grateful to (she's gone through

several family members) is the one she is most hateful to.

Suzy

joannaandsophie wrote:

>

>

> --

>

> The only thing I like about the wild animal analogy is that it tells

> me to stay away, or I will get attacked. That is true. However, with a

> wild animal, this would be the case with any human who approached.

> With nada, it's just me and my sister (and my F before he died).

> Joanna

>

> PS My nada was abused as a child, physically and emotionally, maybe

> sexually. But I was abused too, and I don't terrorize my child.

>

>

> _._,___

[Guest guest]

( are you sure we aren't sisters ??) I know exactly how you feel

and felt as the young girl. Things like this happened to me all the

time..not to my other siblings, only to me...I have always been the least

liked child to nada ( although I was fadas favorite, he never helped me out)

Jackie

In the morning I reminded nada that I had needed a ride home the night

before and that she hadn't shown up as asked and she said in a tone of total

disgust, " You made it home in one piece.What's the problem? "

She didn't care and she would have been happier if I'd never made it home

alive.You tell me what else that is beside evil.

--

[Guest guest]

Ashana,

That is so on the mark about BPs claiming that others have " made " them

do or feel something. Such powers we non-BPs have! It used to

infuriate me when nada would blame me or one of my brothers for her

actions. At least, when I used to take the bait.

Your cat reference is perfect and is probably at the heart of where my

analogy originated. One of my two male cats, both very lovable and

affectionate constant companions, becomes Mr. Hyde cat when I take him

to the vet. The minute he enters the vet's, abject fear takes over and

he starts growling and hissing and goes wild-eyed. I can't even get

near him - and don't try - he would literally rip me to shreds. The vet

has to wrap him in a towel and it takes 2-3 people to examine and treat

him. When I get him home, he's completely back to his lovable sweet

self.

So the animal analogy better explains the raging lunatic version of nada

- where she is completely out of control and well beyond any reach.

That side of nada comes out when she feels threatened and afraid (even

without a basis). In fact, these are the episodes she rarely claims to

recall - and I have often wondered if they are examples of " psychotic

episodes. " I'll have to come up with another analogy for the cold,

calculating " pyschomode " and the one that we in the family call " pitiful

mode. " We have shorthand or nicknames for all of her " modes. "

Suzy

[Guest guest]

> And I can't help but believe that choosing to harm another human being for

> no other reason than *it >makes you feel better* and to actually do it

> because *you can get away with it* is just off-the-charts evil.

I totally agree with you Annie

>My nada actually believes that no matter *what* she does to us, we *have*

>to love her, in my opinion a >horrific misinterpretation of and misuse of

>the " honor thy mother and thy father " commandment.

oh, so does mine !! I asked her once, when I was in highschool, why she was

so nice to others and so mean to us, and that was her anwer, because we HAVE

to love her ( under my breath I said wanna bet ??) if you read that passage

further, it says mothers, fathers do not cause your children to pull their

hair out in frustration or something to the like, but nadas/fadas never use

THAT in their arguments, do they ??

>Its probably a lost cause. Nada's screwed up cognition and " reality " will

>not allow her to take in that >concept.

they do have a way of twisting things to fit what they want...

Jackie

[Guest guest]

Suzy - very powerful word picture in this illustration; thanks! It is also most

helpful to me when processing the struggles of my bpd daughter. I will print it

out and keep it handy.

With appreciation,

One of my two male cats, both very lovable and

> affectionate constant companions, becomes Mr. Hyde cat when I take him

> to the vet. The minute he enters the vet's, abject fear takes over and

> he starts growling and hissing and goes wild-eyed. I can't even get

> near him - and don't try - he would literally rip me to shreds. The vet

> has to wrap him in a towel and it takes 2-3 people to examine and treat

> him. When I get him home, he's completely back to his lovable sweet

> self.

[Guest guest]

I'm wondering, and do hope that today, children are believed, unlike us.

and schools are more aware of emotions abuse and the signs of an abused

child, unlike us, and that maybe the suffering of children is much less

than what we went through because other people are more aware of what's

going on around them, and more likely to call attention to a child abused in

the way we were..

I know what you mean. I don't have kids either..but do have 2 step kids who

were young when I married their dad...the youngest one is exactly the kid

I'd have wanted..the oldest always blamed me for his parents not getting

back together ( they were divorced before I met my husband) I see the kids

in 4-H every week from may until july..and wonder how could anyone treat any

of them the way my mother treated me and my siblings

Jackie

Hi Jackie...It does make me sad to think of other people having suffered and

suffering as I have because I had a nada,especially to think of children who

are stuck in that kind of needless tragedy even as I write this.I think we

turn out to be caring,loving people because that is what we always were in

spite of how we were treated.

I remember how much it hurt to be abused and because I am in touch

with my own woundedness I could not inflict the same on a helpless child.I

don't have children of my own but I genuinely enjoy kids.Sometimes when I

interact with a little girl I think my god I was tiny and vulnerable and

sweet like her,how could nada fail to SEE that.My first instinct is to want

to protect and nurture children.I don't think I'll ever understand anyone

whose first instinct is to want to hurt them.

--