Guest guest Posted February 8, 2000 Report Share Posted February 8, 2000 kim rh writes: >I don't know the FEz's motives. Who knows anyone's motives, really? All we can do is make educated guesses based on what we see. What I saw was a lot of confrontation, from day one, and nothing more. I did not see one post from this individual which didn't seem intended to stir up controversy and do little or nothing other than that. Stirring up controversy definitely has its values, but like anything, too much is too much, and was antithetical to the expressed purposes of this list. It seems to me that this list,. while serving many purposes including as a conversation and banter zone for ex- and non-steppers, it exists firstly to help the ex-stepper deprogram from the headspace abuse and life-numbing self-hatred that goes with life in the rooms. Friendly arguments are *good*, they are the sort of thing the XAs reject, but continued " assaholic " behaviour is just as uncharming as " enforced serenity " ...in my humble opinion. For what it's worth, I just ignored Fez's crap because I've learned to do that, but I know it's not as easy for everyone to do this. And making the ugly comment he did was really stepping over the line. I would have written to the listowner and suggested Fez be booted had he not already done so. It wasn't until he made the suicide comment, though, that it seemed a proper thing for which to ask. >The way I took it >when he said " You're not that important " or whatever, >is " Don't kill yourself, because other people will >cry a little and then just go on with their lives, in >other words it won't have that big of an impact, and >you will be the one that loses out. " It is not Fez's place to say this. If Matt wanted to get treatment at an EST center he would be on an EST mailing list instead of this one. (I think it's called something else now, it used to be called Erhard Seminars Training...EST for short...back in the 70s...what is that new name they're using now? Anyone know? I heard some scary stories about it...VERY culty and they take thousands of dollars of people's money for repeated confrontational abuse seminars. Yuk.) >And when he said " You bore me " , I thought that >was a way to diffuse the melodrama of some of Matt's >posts,( " I am a danger to myself " , " All my life I have >bee used and abused " , OK, here's my two shillings' worth here. While I am in agreement with you that too much of this sort of thing on a mailing list other than one that has been specifically created for *emotional support* can be a bit wearing, I would still draw the line at the " tough love " behaviour exhibited by Fez. I am hesitant to say that this group is supposed to be one thing or another, but I can see well enough that it is not intended to be analogous to a hardline TC ( " therapeutic community " , an euphemism for some more long-term 12-step hotel places that incorporate confrontational methods into their " treatment " regimen) or an EST meeting. Or whatever. " Tough love " isn't what people are coming here for, as far as I can tell. Or " tough non-love " for that matter. No matter how fed up I was with a person's whining, I would always draw the line at telling that person " You want to kill yourself? Do it already. " If one tires of a person's repetitive pleas for help I believe the proper thing to do is to firmly but kindly state something along the lines of " Help and suggestions have already been offered, and it's up to you to take them or leave them. I can say or do nothing more than I've already done. " And then withdraw one's involvement from the situation. Doesn't this make sense? I know of one instance where a crass suggestion to " just shut up and off oneself already " was the camelback straw point for the depressed person in question. > " I am one month away from being >homeless " (You mean you have one month to find a >place? So what?! That's plenty of time!) etc.) What planet are you living on? Or maybe I should say " what area of this one " ? In most American cities a month is *hardly* enough time to find appropriate housing. And usually, even *unappropriate* housing. Unless your financial situation is perfect, and credit rating is spotless (situations likely to be more uncommon amongst people with addictive troubles, emotional difficulties or any other extreme life issues that they're dealing with) most landlords won't even consider your application. In San Francisco it can take even a person who has been employed for over a year in a stable job as long as half a year to find a place! Maybe things are easier out in the boonies. But on average...a month to find a place? Can someone find a new place to live within four weeks, while simultaneously keeping up with their other responsibilities? It can happen, as such things often manage to do under pressure, but every day around me on the street in the gunky part of town here, I see plenty of people for whom it obviously did NOT happen. And even a few months spent homeless can throw a person's life-track so far off that it often ends up extremely difficult or impossible to get back in stride. (You get into the vicious cycle, " you can't hold a job without a place to shave and shower and sleep, but you can't get one without those things, either... " >Who knows what his motives were. I think it would >have been a nice idea to ask him first before kicking >him off the list. <sarcasm>Yeah, I'm really sure he would have owned up to it. " I've just been trying to get everyone here into fights, and then sit back and watch. " </sarcasm> I really don't know what other motive he could have had. Again, if I had seen any nonconfrontational posts (maybe a few that were actually on topic might have helped,. too...) there'd be more to consider here. But even so, I do think somewhere in the list description there's some mention of some requirement to show some modicum of courtesy to other list members. There usually is. If he wants to be confrontational there're plenty of flame lists and political brouhaha boards to vent it on. I see plenty of tolerance here for argument and controversy, but getting personal with it is just lame. Or at least I think it is; your mileage might vary. -dmt demitria monde thraam transmits at: http://thraam.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 12, 2000 Report Share Posted February 12, 2000 mond-@... wrote: original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=12508 > > What I saw was a lot of confrontation, from day one, and nothing more. I did not see one > post from this individual which didn't seem intended to stir up controversy and do little or > nothing other than that. > (Snip) > >Who knows what his motives were. I think it would > >have been a nice idea to ask him first before kicking > >him off the list. > > <sarcasm>Yeah, I'm really sure he would have owned up to it. " I've just been trying to get > everyone here into fights, and then sit back and watch. " </sarcasm> > > I really don't know what other motive he could have had. Again, if I had seen any > nonconfrontational posts (maybe a few that were actually on topic might have helped,. too...) > there'd be more to consider here. > (Snip excellent post) -------------------------- Great post, Demi. I agree with your take on this Fez guy. A compulsion to stir up trouble and manipulate others, and a feeling of entitlement to " show people how stupid they are " or whatever, is usually symptomatic of a personality disorder (Borderline? Narcissistic? - maybe just plain Asshole?) and I personally steer clear of such persons. I do hope Matt is doing OK, and that he is seeking out help from a better therapist. ~Rita Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 13, 2000 Report Share Posted February 13, 2000 I found the FEz to be an absolute riot. He was so over the top and outrageous. Too much so to be taken seriously. The thing about, " your too impressed with yourself. You bore me. Go ahead and kill yourself. Don't let me stop you. " I thought it was a lame Stern type of humor. I'm too impressed with myself? I don't think that's been a problem with me. More like the opposite. I'm too unimpressed with myself. Although people like Kim and the FEz see me as egotistical, melodramatic and full of myself. I wish that were the case. Its more like I think I'm the biggest piece of sh** in the world. And people who have known me will testify to this. Only people similar to me take what I say personally. Because they think: jeez, I sound just like this Matt guy. And he's pretty sad and pathetic. That must make me pathetic! God, I better attack this Matt guy and get him to shut up. *******And Kim, I hope you take that one personally. mond-@... wrote: original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=12508 > kim rh writes: > > >I don't know the FEz's motives. > > Who knows anyone's motives, really? All we can do is make educated guesses based on > what we see. > > What I saw was a lot of confrontation, from day one, and nothing more. I did not see one > post from this individual which didn't seem intended to stir up controversy and do little or > nothing other than that. Stirring up controversy definitely has its values, but like anything, too > much is too much, and was antithetical to the expressed purposes of this list. It seems to me > that this list,. while serving many purposes including as a conversation and banter zone for ex- > and non-steppers, it exists firstly to help the ex-stepper deprogram from the headspace abuse > and life-numbing self-hatred that goes with life in the rooms. Friendly arguments are *good*, > they are the sort of thing the XAs reject, but continued " assaholic " behaviour is just as > uncharming as " enforced serenity " ...in my humble opinion. > > For what it's worth, I just ignored Fez's crap because I've learned to do that, but I know it's > not as easy for everyone to do this. And making the ugly comment he did was really stepping > over the line. I would have written to the listowner and suggested Fez be booted had he not > already done so. It wasn't until he made the suicide comment, though, that it seemed a > proper thing for which to ask. > > >The way I took it > >when he said " You're not that important " or whatever, > >is " Don't kill yourself, because other people will > >cry a little and then just go on with their lives, in > >other words it won't have that big of an impact, and > >you will be the one that loses out. " > > It is not Fez's place to say this. If Matt wanted to get treatment at an EST center he would be > on an EST mailing list instead of this one. > > (I think it's called something else now, it used to be called Erhard Seminars Training...EST for > short...back in the 70s...what is that new name they're using now? Anyone know? I heard > some scary stories about it...VERY culty and they take thousands of dollars of people's > money for repeated confrontational abuse seminars. Yuk.) > > >And when he said " You bore me " , I thought that > >was a way to diffuse the melodrama of some of Matt's > >posts,( " I am a danger to myself " , " All my life I have > >bee used and abused " , > > OK, here's my two shillings' worth here. > > While I am in agreement with you that too much of this sort of thing on a mailing list other > than one that has been specifically created for *emotional support* can be a bit wearing, I > would still draw the line at the " tough love " behaviour exhibited by Fez. I am hesitant to say > that this group is supposed to be one thing or another, but I can see well enough that it is not > intended to be analogous to a hardline TC ( " therapeutic community " , an euphemism for some > more long-term 12-step hotel places that incorporate confrontational methods into their > " treatment " regimen) or an EST meeting. Or whatever. " Tough love " isn't what people are > coming here for, as far as I can tell. Or " tough non-love " for that matter. > > No matter how fed up I was with a person's whining, I would always draw the line at telling > that person " You want to kill yourself? Do it already. " If one tires of a person's repetitive > pleas for help I believe the proper thing to do is to firmly but kindly state something along the > lines of " Help and suggestions have already been offered, and it's up to you to take them or > leave them. I can say or do nothing more than I've already done. " And then withdraw one's > involvement from the situation. Doesn't this make sense? > > I know of one instance where a crass suggestion to " just shut up and off oneself already " was > the camelback straw point for the depressed person in question. > > > " I am one month away from being > >homeless " (You mean you have one month to find a > >place? So what?! That's plenty of time!) etc.) > > What planet are you living on? Or maybe I should say " what area of this one " ? In most > American cities a month is *hardly* enough time to find appropriate housing. And usually, > even *unappropriate* housing. Unless your financial situation is perfect, and credit rating is > spotless (situations likely to be more uncommon amongst people with addictive troubles, > emotional difficulties or any other extreme life issues that they're dealing with) most landlords > won't even consider your application. In San Francisco it can take even a person who has > been employed for over a year in a stable job as long as half a year to find a place! Maybe > things are easier out in the boonies. > > But on average...a month to find a place? Can someone find a new place to live within four > weeks, while simultaneously keeping up with their other responsibilities? It can happen, as > such things often manage to do under pressure, but every day around me on the street in the > gunky part of town here, I see plenty of people for whom it obviously did NOT happen. > > And even a few months spent homeless can throw a person's life-track so far off that it often > ends up extremely difficult or impossible to get back in stride. (You get into the vicious cycle, > " you can't hold a job without a place to shave and shower and sleep, but you can't get one > without those things, either... " > > >Who knows what his motives were. I think it would > >have been a nice idea to ask him first before kicking > >him off the list. > > <sarcasm>Yeah, I'm really sure he would have owned up to it. " I've just been trying to get > everyone here into fights, and then sit back and watch. " </sarcasm> > > I really don't know what other motive he could have had. Again, if I had seen any > nonconfrontational posts (maybe a few that were actually on topic might have helped,. too...) > there'd be more to consider here. But even so, I do think somewhere in the list description > there's some mention of some requirement to show some modicum of courtesy to other list > members. There usually is. If he wants to be confrontational there're plenty of flame lists and > political brouhaha boards to vent it on. > > I see plenty of tolerance here for argument and controversy, but getting personal with it is just > lame. > > Or at least I think it is; your mileage might vary. > > -dmt > > > > > > demitria monde thraam > transmits at: > http://thraam.com > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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