Re: The continuing annoyance that is XA

[Guest guest]

My condolances Carol... I'm sending you a hug...

Apple

> sorry about your dog carol...damn I'm just sorry about

> your dog...Wish i had better words to say.

>

> --- carol wrote:

>

[Guest guest]

Hey Carol, just wanted to say I'm sorry too that you lost your dog. I got

my dog when I was going through infertility junk, and she really is like a

surrogate baby to me. I wonder what it's like for an animal that has been

abused when it is placed in a loving home. It must seem like the animal is

with an entirely different species rather than just another human.

Judith

On Wed, 2 Feb 2000 17:34:32 -0500, 12-step-freeegroups wrote:

> Thanks, she was special. I got her from the Animal Alliance about 5

years

> ago. She too had been badly abused by her former owner and they (the

> Alliance) weren't certain they could place her. She and I were instant

> friends. She had ptsd and other idiosyncracies, but we accepted each

> other. I picked her remains up from the vet yesterday. She was in a

black

> plastic garbage bag and stored in a garbage can. That was devistating.

> She rode her last ride, as " shotgun " in the passenger seat of my truck.

I

> cried all the way home. I just really miss her.

_______________________________________________________

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[Guest guest]

Sorry about the loss of your dog Carol. I don't do well with

losing animals at all. Hope that you are doing alittle better.

I also had a dog who had been abused. Louie would cringe at

the mere sight of a hairbrush, and he wouldn't even dare go

down in the basement. You could just see the fear in his eyes.

I became the only, and I mean ONLY person that he trusted. He

seemed to despise everyone else in this world. People would

comment that he was a crabby old dog, but not to me. His

loyalty was unbelievable.

>

>

>

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

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[Guest guest]

At 03:14 03/02/00 -0800, you wrote:

>My condolances Carol... I'm sending you a hug...

>Apple

>

> > sorry about your dog carol...damn I'm just sorry about

> > your dog...Wish i had better words to say.

> >

> > --- carol wrote:

> >

Same from me. I think it is unfair that pets die at all, let alone several

times within one human lifetime. My cat is getting on a bit now and I am

aware that this isn't forever. We watch " Pet Rescue " together when it is on

TV, but she doesn't seem to realise what it is and takes no notice. I do

try to explain but she just looks at me as if I am crazy. Some pets are

very aware that other animals are on tv. The only animal sound on TV that

she ever had any reaction to was the hissing sound made by live minks at

the end of the film Gorky Park.

Joe B.

[Guest guest]

I want to thank everyone for your condolances. The veternary clinic sent

me a sympathy card and that just put me right back into the crying hole

again. Dogs are so unconditionally loving and accepting of us it's a shame

they can't all be loved and respected in return.

Thanks, Carol

----------

>

> To: 12-step-freeeGroups

> Subject: Re: The continuing annoyance that is XA

> Date: Thursday, February 03, 2000 1:05 PM

>

> At 03:14 03/02/00 -0800, you wrote:

> >My condolances Carol... I'm sending you a hug...

> >Apple

> >

> > > sorry about your dog carol...damn I'm just sorry about

> > > your dog...Wish i had better words to say.

> > >

> > > --- carol wrote:

> > >

>

> Same from me. I think it is unfair that pets die at all, let alone

several

> times within one human lifetime. My cat is getting on a bit now and I am

> aware that this isn't forever. We watch " Pet Rescue " together when it is

on

> TV, but she doesn't seem to realise what it is and takes no notice. I do

> try to explain but she just looks at me as if I am crazy. Some pets are

> very aware that other animals are on tv. The only animal sound on TV that

> she ever had any reaction to was the hissing sound made by live minks at

> the end of the film Gorky Park.

>

> Joe B.

>

>

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[Guest guest]

" pete watts " wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=12212

> Hi Matt

>

> We've certainly heard of AA, but only a few poor suckers like me get

> hooked; in Britain therapy/self-help etc is nothing like so 12-step

> dominated, and most ppl love to laugh at AMerican " Inner child " and

> " reincarnation/ " satanic abuse obsession too.

>

> P.

>

Hi Pete,

I've often thought to myself that people in other countries must view

us Americans as ridiculous sometimes, especially with our recovery

infatuations. Hope that the 12-step-free list shows that some of us

have some common sense.

jan

[Guest guest]

" carol " wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=12242

> This makes me recall one of the last times I attended an open AA

meeting.

> When they were asking for people to take a meeting I stood up and

said " I'm

> Carol, survivor of domestic abuse, I'll take a meeting on gratitude. "

Let

> me tell you I savor that moment to this day. The X was in the back

row and

> all his cronies from the health department (counselors etc.) rushed

to his

> side. He was stunned and looked like he was going to crumble with

shock.

> Then there was such an overpowering " whoosh " in the crowd, it seemed

like a

> hollow screaming 'cause I had let the cat out of the bag. None of

the " old

> timers " but one, came into my meeting. Everyone was new to the

tables.

> The old one who came to my meeting was the wife of the X's

sponsor....I

> believe she was " checking things out " inorder to make a report back to

> headquarters.

>

> My dog died yesterday. I'm feeling down. Another " loss " that I don't

> need.

>

> ----------

I've never heard the term 'take a meeting'. What exactly is that? I'd

been in AA for almost 8 years.

More importantly, sorry about your dog. I'm an animal lover and I get

teary eyed when a guppie dies, let along a dog.

jan

[Guest guest]

" Take a meeting " around here is when, at the beginning of AA meetings the

question is asked " Who'll take a meeting? " a first step, or some topic.

Thanks, my dog was a good friend.

Carol

----------

>

> To: 12-step-freeeGroups

> Subject: Re: The continuing annoyance that is XA

> Date: Saturday, February 12, 2000 9:44 PM

>

> " carol " wrote:

> original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=12242

> > This makes me recall one of the last times I attended an open AA

> meeting.

> > When they were asking for people to take a meeting I stood up and

> said " I'm

> > Carol, survivor of domestic abuse, I'll take a meeting on gratitude. "

> Let

> > me tell you I savor that moment to this day. The X was in the back

> row and

> > all his cronies from the health department (counselors etc.) rushed

> to his

> > side. He was stunned and looked like he was going to crumble with

> shock.

> > Then there was such an overpowering " whoosh " in the crowd, it seemed

> like a

> > hollow screaming 'cause I had let the cat out of the bag. None of

> the " old

> > timers " but one, came into my meeting. Everyone was new to the

> tables.

> > The old one who came to my meeting was the wife of the X's

> sponsor....I

> > believe she was " checking things out " inorder to make a report back to

> > headquarters.

> >

> > My dog died yesterday. I'm feeling down. Another " loss " that I don't

> > need.

> >

> > ----------

>

>

> I've never heard the term 'take a meeting'. What exactly is that? I'd

> been in AA for almost 8 years.

>

> More importantly, sorry about your dog. I'm an animal lover and I get

> teary eyed when a guppie dies, let along a dog.

>

> jan

>

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

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[Guest guest]

" janice m. young " wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=12526

> Hi Pete,

>

> I've often thought to myself that people in other countries must view

> us Americans as ridiculous sometimes, especially with our recovery

> infatuations. Hope that the 12-step-free list shows that some of us

> have some common sense.

Hi Jan,

When CoDA was first launched, the London Evening Standard had an

editorial mocking it and said " We've known for years that Americans are

barking [mad]. "

P.

[Guest guest]

" pete watts " wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=12594

> " janice m. young " wrote:

> original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=125

26

>

> > Hi Pete,

> >

> > I've often thought to myself that people in other countries must

view

> > us Americans as ridiculous sometimes, especially with our recovery

> > infatuations. Hope that the 12-step-free list shows that some of us

> > have some common sense.

>

> Hi Jan,

>

> When CoDA was first launched, the London Evening Standard had an

> editorial mocking it and said " We've known for years that Americans

are

> barking [mad]. "

>

> P.

>

Which says a lot about the London Evening Standard and little or

nothing about any population of any country. Afterall, in 1568 the

Spanish Inquisition declared the entire population of the Netherlands

to be heretics and condemned it to death.

Tommy

[Guest guest]

Man I really agree with what was written here. That is my experience

with AA'ers also.

When i entered a hospital years ago all my so-called AA " friends "

dissapeared.

I have never really forgiven them.

That is sickening..what happened when Mike's wife was sick.

And if u ever say anything to them..they analyze you. Makes ya feel

like killing them.

[Guest guest]

Here's a sad AA story for you all. Keep in mind how they pride

themselves on their selfless love and help for others. This is also

very true story and I just heard about it last night.

I still keep in touch with a couple gals I met in AA in the state I

used to live in. One of them, like me, is tired of the AA hypocrisy

and slogans and behavior in the rooms. We talked at length about it

last year but then I moved away. She has 3 daughters, the oldest of

which has 2 little girls of her own, one 9, the other 7. This past

Monday the two little girls and their father were taking a walk down

the road. They were at a bend in the road and a coal truck filled with

scrap metal came barreling down the road, and when it reached the bend,

it tipped over on top of the girls and their father. The girls were

killed instantly. He's still in intensive care breathing with a

respirator and is so out of it still, he doen't know they died. He'll

never walk normally again. The funeral was yesterday for those poor

children and my friend said that the outpouring of support from family

and church and neighbors was enormous. This accident was all over the

news in the area. My friend had been in AA 10 years but in the last

year or so has decreased her meeting attendance to nothing. She said

that no one in AA except her closest AA friends (about 3) called,

visited the funeral home, offered to do anything, help in anyway, send

flowers. I guess they couldn't think of an appropriate slogan. I am

not making this up.

I will never grace the steps of that organization.

Jan

" guadman " wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=12791

> Man I really agree with what was written here. That is my experience

> with AA'ers also.

> When i entered a hospital years ago all my so-called AA " friends "

> dissapeared.

> I have never really forgiven them.

> That is sickening..what happened when Mike's wife was sick.

> And if u ever say anything to them..they analyze you. Makes ya feel

> like killing them.

>

[Guest guest]

Janice,

I am so sorry regarding what happened with your friend. The pain of her

losing both her kids and having here husband so badly injured has to be

incredibe.

I really like your line.. " i guess they couldn't think of an appropriate

slogan " . It really hits the nail right on the head.

Even though I never really plan on attending AA again...ever. I have

to add that it can help people. In between all the sick crazy bullshyt

i did hear a lot of real truth when people stuck to telling things

they..personally..experienced and what they learned from it. And many

many of the ideas in the big book are incredibley useful.

My experience was also exactly like that of your friend as far as

where my help really came from. My old friends..and my family (which AA

many times alludes you need to keep away from), stuck with me thru ALL

of it. And it lasted a really long time. AA'ers...AA'ed me...and then

walked away, in general.

And..even though i am not a member of any specific church...i met

people from many many different christian churches throughout my pain

and struggle who were kind and loving and mainly interested in simply

helping me out (along with some attempts to convert me in the case of

the larger organized churches).

What a terrible thing what happened to your friend.

I'd like to add here that my experience in..and getting out...of AA

was exactly like that of " exiting " a cult.

I read many many books on cults when i realized this..and without a

doubt...the best one i ever read..is " Cults in Our Midst " by Margaret

Singer.

She is a genuine social scientist, without a personal axe to grind,

like many of the ex-cult members materials that I read. AA and 12 step

programs are never mentioned in her book, yet her descriptions of them

and the experiences of being inducted into, remaining in, and exciting

them, was EXACTLY what I experienced in AA/12 step programs.

[Guest guest]

Hi Jan,

I can relate to this story in such a personal way. People may say this is

a rare occurance

and it wouldn't usually happen, but it has been my experience also. A bunch

of stupid shallow slogans

just don't cut it when tragic stuff like this happens.

I can testify to the fact that this does happen, just like you described.

April 6th will be the 3rd anniversary of my son's death. No one from the

program was there for me. In those early months after his death I was in

such bad shape. Those " friends " I had developed relationships with after

years of faithful meeting attendance and service work were nowhere to be

found unless I went to a meeting or called them. I can see the advantage of

encouraging people to reach out and take responsibility for recovery but

putting someone to this " test " when thier only child dies seems like an

outragious interpretation of program mentality. I was in such a black pit

of despair, anyone who has gone through something like this knows that

pulling yourself out seems like an insurmountable task. It was people

outside of the program who stayed with me, reached out to me when things

were the lowest.

I even got a call from someone in the H & I committee wanting me to give

someone a ride to a meeting that didn't want to take the bus. When I

explained how I just wasn't in a place to do that they exploded on me

lecturing about my selfishness and inability " to get out of myself " ! I had

just lost a few close friends when my son died. I was trying desperately to

understand these losses like someone would naturally do...and you know

someone actually told me it must be my fault...that all of these people must

be trying to get away from me because I must be such a bad person and

evidently wasn't attempting to " see my part " . " I was in denial " or these bad

things wouldn't be happening to me!

I hope you are in a position to support this woman. You don't have to know

the right words, say the right things. She will remember those who sit with

her, just listened as she attempts to make sense out of this tragedy. Just

making sure she doesn't have to spend time alone. Having someone help her

make the funeral arrangements, let her cry, encourage her and let her talk

about her girls. Remember the anniverseries. I remember the people who went

with me to make the arrangements, called me all of the time just to say they

were thinking about me. They sent me flowers, cards ect on the anniversary

of his death. They weren't afraid to spend time with me and just listen to

anything I wanted to talk about. She probably won't ever " get over " the

death of her children. She can learn to live in spite of it though. She

probably won't be able to suggest things to do to help. Even the simple

things like shopping or just getting out of bed will feel overwhelming for

the first year. I wouldn't think she will be anywhere near " normal " whatever

that is for well into the second year. She will never be like she was

before. That's when good friends will just be there and figure out what

needs to be done. Compassionate Friends is a suppport group for people who

have lost children. There are many e-mail support groups like Grief Net that

have saved my life. I went to the National Conference of Compassionate

Friends this last year. It was amazing. Not at all like 12 step groups.

Those people were so real. I met so many of the woman I had been writing to

for a few years. Maybe when she is ready she could find a lot of support

there. Grief Spirits is the name of the e-mail group I liked so much.

Like you, I will never set foot in a meeting again. You sound like a great

friend for this woman to have . She is lucky to have someone like you...even

if it is long-distance as it appeared to be in your post. Rebekah

>Here's a sad AA story for you all. Keep ihelp for others. This is also

>very true story and I just heard about it n mind how they pride

>themselves on their selfless love and last night.

>

>I still keep in touch with a couple gals I met in AA in the state I

>used to live in. One of them, like me, is tired of the AA hypocrisy

>and slogans and behavior in the rooms. We talked at length about it

>last year but then I moved away. She has 3 daughters, the oldest of

>which has 2 little girls of her own, one 9, the other 7. This past

>Monday the two little girls and their father were taking a walk down

>the road. They were at a bend in the road and a coal truck filled with

>scrap metal came barreling down the road, and when it reached the bend,

>it tipped over on top of the girls and their father. The girls were

>killed instantly. He's still in intensive care breathing with a

>respirator and is so out of it still, he doen't know they died. He'll

>never walk normally again. The funeral was yesterday for those poor

>children and my friend said that the outpouring of support from family

>and church and neighbors was enormous. This accident was all over the

>news in the area. My friend had been in AA 10 years but in the last

>year or so has decreased her meeting attendance to nothing. She said

>that no one in AA except her closest AA friends (about 3) called,

>visited the funeral home, offered to do anything, help in anyway, send

>flowers. I guess they couldn't think of an appropriate slogan. I am

>not making this up.

>

>I will never grace the steps of that organization.

>

>Jan

[Guest guest]

Sure Jan, of course. My heart goes out to this woman and her family. I wish

her all the best in the difficult times to come. I hope she finds all the

support and encouragement she needs to just feel and express all of the

feelings she will be having....without judgements and expectations. She is

free to e-mail me if she just wants someone to talk to. I might be able to

offer more specific resources for her and family. Rebekah

Church of the Divine Rebekah

http://home.earthlink.net/~goddessofsantafe/

To educate as the practice of freedom is a way of teaching that anyone can

learn. That learning process comes easiest to those of us that teach who

also believe that there is an aspect of our vocation that is sacred; who

believe that our work is not merely to share information but to share in

the intellectual and spiritual growth of our students. To teach in a manner

that respects and cares for the souls of our students is essential if we are

to provide the necessary conditions where learning can most deeply and

intimately begin. bell hooks

----------

>

>To: 12-step-freeeGroups

>Subject: Re: The continuing annoyance that is XA

>Date: Sat, Feb 26, 2000, 10:05 AM

>

>Thanks Rebekah for your kind words. Would you allow me to copy your

>post and email it to my friend. I think it would help her so much.

>Not only can you relate even better than my, you also had some

>suggestions for her daughter. Thanks again to you and everyone else

>who had kind thoughts for this family and their tragedy.

>

>jan

>

>

>

>

>

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

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>http://click./1/1884/1/_/4324/_/951588314/

>

>-- Check out your group's private Chat room

>-- /ChatPage?listName=12-step-free & m=1

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks Rebekah for your kind words. Would you allow me to copy your

post and email it to my friend. I think it would help her so much.

Not only can you relate even better than my, you also had some

suggestions for her daughter. Thanks again to you and everyone else

who had kind thoughts for this family and their tragedy.

jan

[Guest guest]

UGH! what a horrible story. I think that the self esteem of members is

beaten down so low that they don't feel they deserve support, so why

should they give it. It's the old. Nobody felt sorry for me, so why

should I feel sorry for anyone?

Apple

" janice m. young " wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=12813

> Here's a sad AA story for you all. Keep in mind how they pride

> themselves on their selfless love and help for others. This is also

> very true story and I just heard about it last night.

>

> I still keep in touch with a couple gals I met in AA in the state I

> used to live in. One of them, like me, is tired of the AA hypocrisy

> and slogans and behavior in the rooms. We talked at length about it

> last year but then I moved away. She has 3 daughters, the oldest of

> which has 2 little girls of her own, one 9, the other 7. This past

> Monday the two little girls and their father were taking a walk down

> the road. They were at a bend in the road and a coal truck filled

with

> scrap metal came barreling down the road, and when it reached the

bend,

> it tipped over on top of the girls and their father. The girls were

> killed instantly. He's still in intensive care breathing with a

> respirator and is so out of it still, he doen't know they died. He'll

> never walk normally again. The funeral was yesterday for those poor

> children and my friend said that the outpouring of support from family

> and church and neighbors was enormous. This accident was all over the

> news in the area. My friend had been in AA 10 years but in the last

> year or so has decreased her meeting attendance to nothing. She said

> that no one in AA except her closest AA friends (about 3) called,

> visited the funeral home, offered to do anything, help in anyway, send

> flowers. I guess they couldn't think of an appropriate slogan. I am

> not making this up.

>

> I will never grace the steps of that organization.

>

> Jan