Re: The continuing annoyance that is XA

January 30, 2000

I hear you. Anytime anything gets under my skin my AA friend just looks at

me pityingly and says something about letting the outer world control me.

As if we humans should be impervious to any experiences or stimuli. It took

me 30 years to learn how to get angry - don't take that away from me now!

>

>Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

>To: 12-step-freeegroups

>Subject: The continuing annoyance that is XA

>Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 15:54:02 -0800 (PST)

>

>Hello all,

>I'm gonna vent so I hope this doesn't sound crazy. But 12 step groups and

>its members are continuing to drive me up the wall. Its like I can't

>escape

>their influence. If I go to a therapist, any therapist and say, " I'm

>unhappy " they say, 'go to AA. You'll feel happy then.' If I talk to a

>family member, especially my brother I get the same old 12 step rhetoric.

> Its just tiresome, year after year to have to hear about this

>stuff.

>Any book you read about self help always ties into the 12 steps.

> Its just annoying. I want to move to a country where no

>one has heard of AA. Anyone know of one?

>Thanks,

>Matt

>

>_______________________________________________________

>Get 100% FREE Internet Access powered by Excite

>Visit http://freeworld.excite.com

>

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>If you took Podimin™, Redux®, or the combination " Fen-Phen, "

>visit the OFFICIAL site. Request the Court authorized notice package

>explaining your rights under the class settlement.

>http://click./1/833/1/_/4324/_/949276520/

>

>eGroups.com Home: /group/12-step-free/

> - Simplifying group communications

>

______________________________________________________

January 30, 2000

At 19:18 30/01/00 -0500, you wrote:

>I hear you. Anytime anything gets under my skin my AA friend just looks

>at me pityingly and says something about letting the outer world control me.

>As if we humans should be impervious to any experiences or stimuli. It

>took me 30 years to learn how to get angry - don't take that away from me now!

I think there is some mileage in not being excessively reactive to the

outside world, and I have done a lot of personal work in that area, but the

12 step way of avoiding that reaction turns it into something else that

isn't really any better and is potentially a lot worse. It is a sort of

pseudo-enlightened smug spiritual nothingness, where there are injunctions

not to feel- not because the feelings would be harmful but because

experiencing those feelings is against the rules. Possibly your AA friend

might get quite upset about certain things, although would prefer that

nobody ever sees it. I trod (accidentally) on my sponsors' sponsor's (ie my

grandsponsor's) foot one evening and his first unguarded, unrehearsed

reaction was the most hostile glare I have seen at close range from another

adult human being. I thought for a moment he was going to shout at me or

hit me. He didn't, but that look spoke volumes. There was a LOT of anger

coming across in that, and it wasn't to do with that situation, it was

there already, I merely stepped in it. It wasn't as if I had deliberately

stamped on his foot with the intention of hurting him- I had inadvertently

trodden on it, not with any force, in my hurry to get out of that meeting.

This, I think, is someone who hasn't learnt to handle his thinking and

emotions but simply follows the rules instead. Such people typically talk a

great program, much of which is about being above such emotions as anger.

Joe B.

January 30, 2000

Ugh! What a horrible story.. absolutely horrible. I don't know if I

mentioned it, but about 3 weeks ago, I was going through a terrible

loneliness (rare that I feel it so intensely these days but alas...)

that I went to an AA meeting at the old clubhouse where I spent about 5

years of my life. (morbid curiosity? I don't know what it was...

anyway... ) I saw some people who I hadn't seen in a long time, and

some of them, who I had known for years, just didn't give a flying f**k

to see me there. No " howyadoing " , nothing like that. I guess that since

I didn't look beat up and desperate, there was no reason to talk to me.

I could feel how emotionally shut down they were, it's horrible. And

since I decided last year that I refuse to be emotionally shut down,

and have opened myself up emotionally (as much as I can for now), I

could feel... literally feel.. their shut-downness. It's like a

hardness which radiates from the heart area. (not trying to sound too

Celestine Prophecy or anything), but I can sense it. It's very sad.

The ones who do manage to regain their humanity waste so much time in

the rooms trying to get there. It shouldn't take ten years of meetings

for chrissake. It would be so much easier out of that environment, but

that's too frightening for 'em... those normies " out there " just don't

understand...

Apple

> Hi Joe,

> I snipped most of this, but you have one very important point

here. I

> have a friend that lost his wife due to MS. He gave up everything to

opt

> out and stay home and look after her for as long as he could. He was

in AA

> for around 8 years at the time and when he did get a break and was

able to

> go to a meeting, he questioned his so called AA friends as to why no

one in

> the program ever came to visit or lend a hand. Their responce to this

was

> " THIS TO SHALL PASS " . I think you have miss understated what you said

> above. I think they become void of any or all emotions after awhile.

> Mike M

>

January 30, 2000

Yes, but you will have to wait until they find the probe. They even think

they may have heard beeps from it, so hang in there.

Mike M

> Its just annoying. I want to move to a country where no

>one has heard of AA. Anyone know of one?

>Thanks,

>Matt

>

>_______________________________________________________

>Get 100% FREE Internet Access powered by Excite

>Visit http://freeworld.excite.com

>

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>If you took Podimin™, Redux®, or the combination " Fen-Phen, "

>visit the OFFICIAL site. Request the Court authorized notice package

>explaining your rights under the class settlement.

>http://click./1/833/1/_/4324/_/949276520/

>

>eGroups.com Home: /group/12-step-free/

> - Simplifying group communications

>

January 30, 2000

>This, I think, is someone who hasn't learnt to handle his thinking and

>emotions but simply follows the rules instead. Such people typically talk a

>great program, much of which is about being above such emotions as anger.

>Joe B.

Hi Joe,

I snipped most of this, but you have one very important point here. I

have a friend that lost his wife due to MS. He gave up everything to opt

out and stay home and look after her for as long as he could. He was in AA

for around 8 years at the time and when he did get a break and was able to

go to a meeting, he questioned his so called AA friends as to why no one in

the program ever came to visit or lend a hand. Their responce to this was

" THIS TO SHALL PASS " . I think you have miss understated what you said

above. I think they become void of any or all emotions after awhile.

Mike M

January 31, 2000

I am beginning to see AA as being used as a " defense mechanism " allowing

people to shut down emotionally. Maybe the more fearful a person is.....the

greater extent is is taken to the limit of absurdity. I remember how angry

some people got at me when my son died. How many people got in my face and

tried to get me to put on a happy face and were absolutely threatened by my

sadness and grief. Meetings became the last place I wanted to be then, or

when I was in therapy working through the issues of my childhood. AA, the

meetings, it was a totally unsafe place to be. Even now, I run into people

and they make comments about " how much better I look than a few years ago "

like I have done something marvelous and seen the light. Jeez.....it makes

me angry. The best thing I did was allow myself to feel and experience the

grief exactly as it presented itself to me. I don't think I would want to

know how I would be now if I had shut down. Basically, I think it is because

some are relieved they don't have to be rattled by having to be exposed to

my " unpleasant " feelings. It's exactly why I think I have some semblance of

mental health now is because I allowed myself to feel the reality of my sons

death, along with all the questioning and vulnerability.

I've witnessed the reinforcement around " I don't do feelings " and

" that's too scary, I can't go there " kind of mentality. I have had that

kind of brainwashing all of my life, and it has just made my world shrink

down to nothing. My feelings haven't killed me or made me go crazy as I have

been told. Running away from them had some fairly negative consequences

though. Every time I thought I couldn't handle some aspect of my life and

shut down, I lost a bigger chunk of myself until there was so little left. I

am a strong person, much stronger than I ever knew before. Maybe denial is

a good thing for awhile, but staying there indefinately is not a good thing.

It's hard to find the words to talk about this. I tried to keep it free of

psychobabble and jargonese ....but still find those kind of words popping up

in my vocabulary. Maybe you can understand what I was trying to get at?

Rebekah

Church of the Divine Rebekah

http://home.earthlink.net/~goddessofsantafe/

To educate as the practice of freedom is a way of teaching that anyone can

learn. That learning process comes easiest to those of us that teach who

also believe that there is an aspect of our vocation that is sacred; who

believe that our work is not merely to share information but to share in

the intellectual and spiritual growth of our students. To teach in a manner

that respects and cares for the souls of our students is essential if we are

to provide the necessary conditions where learning can most deeply and

intimately begin. bell hooks

----------

>From: appledtp@...

>To: 12-step-freeeGroups

>Subject: Re: The continuing annoyance that is XA

>Date: Sun, Jan 30, 2000, 6:01 PM

>

>Ugh! What a horrible story.. absolutely horrible. I don't know if I

>mentioned it, but about 3 weeks ago, I was going through a terrible

>loneliness (rare that I feel it so intensely these days but alas...)

>that I went to an AA meeting at the old clubhouse where I spent about 5

>years of my life. (morbid curiosity? I don't know what it was...

>anyway... ) I saw some people who I hadn't seen in a long time, and

>some of them, who I had known for years, just didn't give a flying f**k

>to see me there. No " howyadoing " , nothing like that. I guess that since

>I didn't look beat up and desperate, there was no reason to talk to me.

>I could feel how emotionally shut down they were, it's horrible. And

>since I decided last year that I refuse to be emotionally shut down,

>and have opened myself up emotionally (as much as I can for now), I

>could feel... literally feel.. their shut-downness. It's like a

>hardness which radiates from the heart area. (not trying to sound too

>Celestine Prophecy or anything), but I can sense it. It's very sad.

>The ones who do manage to regain their humanity waste so much time in

>the rooms trying to get there. It shouldn't take ten years of meetings

>for chrissake. It would be so much easier out of that environment, but

>that's too frightening for 'em... those normies " out there " just don't

>understand...

>Apple

>

>> Hi Joe,

>> I snipped most of this, but you have one very important point

>here. I

>> have a friend that lost his wife due to MS. He gave up everything to

>opt

>> out and stay home and look after her for as long as he could. He was

>in AA

>> for around 8 years at the time and when he did get a break and was

>able to

>> go to a meeting, he questioned his so called AA friends as to why no

>one in

>> the program ever came to visit or lend a hand. Their responce to this

>was

>> " THIS TO SHALL PASS " . I think you have miss understated what you said

>> above. I think they become void of any or all emotions after awhile.

>> Mike M

>>

>

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>Want to send money instantly to anyone, anywhere, anytime?

>You can today at X.com - and we'll give you $20 to try it! Sign

>up today at X.com. It's quick, free, & there's no obligation!

>http://click./1/332/1/_/4324/_/949284072/

>

>-- Check out your group's private Chat room

>-- /ChatPage?listName=12-step-free & m=1

>

January 31, 2000

Hi Matt

We've certainly heard of AA, but only a few poor suckers like me get

hooked; in Britain therapy/self-help etc is nothing like so 12-step

dominated, and most ppl love to laugh at AMerican " Inner child " and

" reincarnation/ " satanic abuse obsession too.

P.

matt wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=12196

> Hello all,

> I'm gonna vent so I hope this doesn't sound crazy. But 12 step

groups and

> its members are continuing to drive me up the wall. Its like I can't

escape

> their influence. If I go to a therapist, any therapist and say, " I'm

> unhappy " they say, 'go to AA. You'll feel happy then.' If I talk to

a

> family member, especially my brother I get the same old 12 step

rhetoric.

> Its just tiresome, year after year to have to hear about this

stuff.

> Any book you read about self help always ties into the 12 steps.

> Its just annoying. I want to move to a country where no

> one has heard of AA. Anyone know of one?

> Thanks,

> Matt

>

> _______________________________________________________

> Get 100% FREE Internet Access powered by Excite

> Visit http://freeworld.excite.com

>

January 31, 2000

HI Mike

I can report a similar experience of an AA man with cancer. Although

he has had some support from AA members, despited being very active in

the program for years, chairing meetings and working on the AA helpline

etc I dont think any of his AA buddies have helped out when he's been

very ill.

He kept falling back on me, who split with him several years ago.

P.

mike may wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=12202

> >This, I think, is someone who hasn't learnt to handle his thinking

and

> >emotions but simply follows the rules instead. Such people typically

talk a

> >great program, much of which is about being above such emotions as

anger.

>

> >Joe B.

>

> Hi Joe,

> I snipped most of this, but you have one very important point

here. I

> have a friend that lost his wife due to MS. He gave up everything to

opt

> out and stay home and look after her for as long as he could. He was

in AA

> for around 8 years at the time and when he did get a break and was

able to

> go to a meeting, he questioned his so called AA friends as to why no

one in

> the program ever came to visit or lend a hand. Their responce to this

was

> " THIS TO SHALL PASS " . I think you have miss understated what you said

> above. I think they become void of any or all emotions after awhile.

> Mike M

>

January 31, 2000

Apple,

You hit on exactly why I hate to go back to AA meetings now. Every time I

go to a meeting I'll see dozens of people who used

to be close to me, a few years back, but won't even acknowledge

me now. I'm the same way Apple. Everytime I return to AA I

expect a warm greeting. I never get it. At my most recent

meeting I saw a woman I'd known through AA for several years.

I glanced over her way and smiled. She looked away.

Am I invisible? Do I exist? In AA, not unless I prove myself.

I've said this before but in AA the normal social pleasantries

do not apply. You know how in public its common courtesy to

say, " hello, how ya' doing " to a person you recognize even if

you aren't close to that person anymore. Not in AA.

Anyway, that is why I hate going to AA. That cold feeling

I get when someone I once opened up to won't give me the time of

day. Who needs that?

If you ever want to get back into AA's good graces, make

a public confession. Meaning, speak up at a meeting and talk

about how helpless you are and how ashamed you are of the way

you've been living. 'I need help. I'm sorry, I just need help.'

Throw in a couple of AA cliches for good measure and youv'e got

yourself an instant social life!!

One thing I pride myself on is acknowledging other people's

existence. Even if I hate their guts. Just nodding and smiling.

Its so much easier. Even if I pass someone downtown, I'll smile.

It hurts nothing and it disarms most people. I think AA members

play alot of head games. They think, " I'll give him the silent

treatment so he'll get better. " Like they'd be enabling me by

saying hello.

I used to be that way. I'd avoid people that scared me

or who had hurt me in the past. Its too exhausting. Now, I fear

no one. Except a room full of AA members (ha-ha).

Thank ya, Matt

On Sun, 30 Jan 2000 18:01:05 -0800, 12-step-freeegroups wrote:

> Ugh! What a horrible story.. absolutely horrible. I don't know if I

> mentioned it, but about 3 weeks ago, I was going through a terrible

> loneliness (rare that I feel it so intensely these days but alas...)

> that I went to an AA meeting at the old clubhouse where I spent about 5

> years of my life. (morbid curiosity? I don't know what it was...

> anyway... ) I saw some people who I hadn't seen in a long time, and

> some of them, who I had known for years, just didn't give a flying f**k

> to see me there. No " howyadoing " , nothing like that. I guess that since

> I didn't look beat up and desperate, there was no reason to talk to me.

> I could feel how emotionally shut down they were, it's horrible. And

> since I decided last year that I refuse to be emotionally shut down,

> and have opened myself up emotionally (as much as I can for now), I

> could feel... literally feel.. their shut-downness. It's like a

> hardness which radiates from the heart area. (not trying to sound too

> Celestine Prophecy or anything), but I can sense it. It's very sad.

> The ones who do manage to regain their humanity waste so much time in

> the rooms trying to get there. It shouldn't take ten years of meetings

> for chrissake. It would be so much easier out of that environment, but

> that's too frightening for 'em... those normies " out there " just don't

> understand...

> Apple

>

> > Hi Joe,

> > I snipped most of this, but you have one very important point

> here. I

> > have a friend that lost his wife due to MS. He gave up everything to

> opt

> > out and stay home and look after her for as long as he could. He was

> in AA

> > for around 8 years at the time and when he did get a break and was

> able to

> > go to a meeting, he questioned his so called AA friends as to why no

> one in

> > the program ever came to visit or lend a hand. Their responce to this

> was

> > " THIS TO SHALL PASS " . I think you have miss understated what you said

> > above. I think they become void of any or all emotions after awhile.

> > Mike M

> >

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> Want to send money instantly to anyone, anywhere, anytime?

>

> You can today at X.com - and we'll give you $20 to try it! Sign

>

> up today at X.com. It's quick, free, & there's no obligation!

> http://click./1/332/1/_/4324/_/949284072/

>

> -- Check out your group's private Chat room

> -- /ChatPage?listName=12-step-free & m=1

>

_______________________________________________________

Get 100% FREE Internet Access powered by Excite

Visit http://freeworld.excite.com

January 31, 2000

It's exactly why I think I have some semblance of

> mental health now is because I allowed myself to feel the reality hile,

but staying there indefinately is not a good thing.

> It's hard to find the words to talk about this. I tried to keep it free

of

> psychobabble and jargonese ....but still find those kind of words popping

up

> in my vocabulary. Maybe you can understand what I was trying to get at?

> Rebekah

______________________________________________________________

I think you picked an ideal place to vent some of those feelings and

frustrations. You can vent without inhibition and you truly get to

experience 'anonynimity' for real,and not the pseudo crap you dealt with in

the tombs (rooms).

I know that up until now I have come across as a real asshole, but there is

a method to my madness.

Keep unloading nobody can hurt you in here.

_______________________________________________________

Get 100% FREE Internet Access powered by Excite

Visit http://freeworld.excite.com

January 31, 2000

Since I was vocal to a few in AA about exploring other recovery

options and questioned the disease idea, I noticed that several

of the people were not nearly as friendly to me. They almost

acted like they must stay away from me. I suppose because they

feel I am not " working the program. "

I have speculated that I actually needed to believe in the disease

concept at one time. It absolved me of responsibility long

enough for my head to clear. If I would have had to take the

responsibility for some of my behaviors when I was newly sober,

I believe that I would not have made it.

But... to hang on to the disease theory.... is not the answer

for me anymore. Keeps me weak, irresponsible, unfocused on

life. Keeps me feeling powerless. This is a theory that I was

told by a group of brainwashed people. I can't believe that it's

taken me a year to see through this.

Tonight I did not go the meeting that I have faithfully attended

for all of last year. Just couldn't go fake it. Gotta confess

that it feels alittle weird. But good, too. Last week when I

did go, I sat there wishing I hadn't.

Sometimes I think that the major flaw in AA is that a person

is not supposed to move on. Moving on is growth. It is

healthy. I did grow in AA in the respect that my head cleared

enough to think again. To not use that thinking and to not

move on is just more self-destruction.

A year ago, I was so " grateful " for AA. It seemed amazing

to sober. Now I find myself moving on. Now there is something

to be grateful about.

Sue