Re: Worried about my brother (long post but please respond)

[Guest guest]

Hi Matt, I'm sorry to hear about your brother and can only relate my own

experiences. I have been in 18 " treatment centers " in 22 years in and out of

AA over that time. About 6 years ago I became fully involved in AA, when it

came time for me to " speak " for my one year anniversary I became so

depressed and delusional I wound up in my first mental hospital. I realize

now that I honestly couldn't sit in front of a group of people and tell them

how " great " my life had become when I felt so awful. Over the next 5 years I

was given so many different anti-depressants, anti-psychotics and

tranquilizers that I couldn't think straight. I found the Rational Recovery

website over a year ago and it struck something inside me, I purchased the

book and I began to think on my own again. During the past year I was so

angry and self-destructive I think because I finally knew AA was wrong but

because of my AA programming I thought I would die if I quit for good. I

really think anything you can give your brother to read that will start to

free his mind from that goddamm cult will help him.

Good luck and take care,

Tom

Worried about my brother (long post but please

respond)

> Hi all,

> Some people here may have heard me talk about my brother who has been

> actively involved in AA for several years. In the past, I've talked about

> how worried I am about his disheveled appearance and dark cynicism that

has

> overtaken him while in AA.

> Well, he called me tonight about 2 am and sounded really depressed. He

> plays a computer game for endless hours every day. And he talks about how

> much he hates AA and how he doesn't give a damn what AA people think about

> him.

> I actually tried to cheer him up by saying: " your life has gotten

> better since you joined AA. You got a college degree, you couldn't of

done

> that without AA. " It seems like my brother has become more angry at AA

> since he moved out of my parent's house on started living on my own. He

> seemed a lot happier when he was living with my Dad and chasing his

degree.

> But ever since he's been bummed out. Disillusioned with work, the program

> and God. He's even started anti-depressants.

> My brother is really sarcastic towards me and hard to talk to. But I

> try to stay on the line with him just to make him feel better for a while.

> I want to tell him what I really think: that he needs to look outside of

AA

> for friends and happiness. But he gets real defensive when I do that.

> I'm thinking about making a photocopy of the chapter from a book I

> bought called " Overcoming Lonliness. " The chapter talks about how AA and

> the 12 step program was only intended by its creators to deal with alcohol

> abuse. Its not intended to be used as a social club or a guide to fix all

> of life's problems.

> I don't know if he'd read it or not. But the chapter is very rational and

> well thought out. It doesn't bash AA, says its great to get people sober,

> but it offers constructive criticism of it.

> I don't know. My brother just seems disappointed by lots of things.

> I try to reach him, but he hates talking about what he's feeling.

> My biggest fear is an AA suicide. I know how the program tells

people

> not to go to outside sources for answers. And I'm sure they've got my

> brother convinced that his depression is all his fault. That he needs to

> " get outside of himself " and " quit wallowing in self pity. "

> I don't think he does that. He works his ass off in AA. He does

> service work, charity stuff, sponsors others, etc... He couldn't work a

> better program. I'm afraid now that he has been brainwashed and no longer

> trusts non-AA people. And now he doesn't really trust AA people either.

> I hope I'm just being a worry wort. I have a hard time reaching

out

> to him because I feel depressed a lot of the time too. I feel

hypocritical

> telling him what to do.

> Not an easy situation. I told him tonight I was thinking about going to

> Debtor's Anonymous because of my financial problems. He made fun of me

> about it.

> Maybe my brother is just seeing the truth finally and its making

him

> mad.

> Any suggestions would be great.

> Thanks,

> Matt

>

>

>

>

>

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[Guest guest]

Hi Matt

Giving him that chapter sounds a good idea, though you weaken it by

satying you are going to DA. This would help perhaps if he were a

stepper who acknowledged other programs, but from what you say he is

becoming disillusioned with AA anyway, and hence going to DA yourself

will not particularly help you communicate with him. Id there any

non-grouper activity you can do together? He may not be fun company at

the moment, but if you can get him to go fishing or whatever,

especially with other ppl, maybe go clubbing and hit on a few women

perhaps?

Pete

matt wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=12351

> Hi all,

> Some people here may have heard me talk about my brother who has been

> actively involved in AA for several years. In the past, I've talked

about

> how worried I am about his disheveled appearance and dark cynicism

that has

> overtaken him while in AA.

> Well, he called me tonight about 2 am and sounded really depressed.

He

> plays a computer game for endless hours every day. And he talks

about how

> much he hates AA and how he doesn't give a damn what AA people think

about

> him.

> I actually tried to cheer him up by saying: " your life has

gotten

> better since you joined AA. You got a college degree, you couldn't

of done

> that without AA. " It seems like my brother has become more angry at

AA

> since he moved out of my parent's house on started living on my own.

He

> seemed a lot happier when he was living with my Dad and chasing his

degree.

> But ever since he's been bummed out. Disillusioned with work, the

program

> and God. He's even started anti-depressants.

> My brother is really sarcastic towards me and hard to talk to.

But I

> try to stay on the line with him just to make him feel better for a

while.

> I want to tell him what I really think: that he needs to look

outside of AA

> for friends and happiness. But he gets real defensive when I do that.

> I'm thinking about making a photocopy of the chapter from a

book I

> bought called " Overcoming Lonliness. " The chapter talks about how AA

and

> the 12 step program was only intended by its creators to deal with

alcohol

> abuse. Its not intended to be used as a social club or a guide to

fix all

> of life's problems.

> I don't know if he'd read it or not. But the chapter is very

rational and

> well thought out. It doesn't bash AA, says its great to get people

sober,

> but it offers constructive criticism of it.

> I don't know. My brother just seems disappointed by lots of

things.

> I try to reach him, but he hates talking about what he's feeling.

> My biggest fear is an AA suicide. I know how the program tells

people

> not to go to outside sources for answers. And I'm sure they've got my

> brother convinced that his depression is all his fault. That he

needs to

> " get outside of himself " and " quit wallowing in self pity. "

> I don't think he does that. He works his ass off in AA. He does

> service work, charity stuff, sponsors others, etc... He couldn't

work a

> better program. I'm afraid now that he has been brainwashed and no

longer

> trusts non-AA people. And now he doesn't really trust AA people

either.

> I hope I'm just being a worry wort. I have a hard time

reaching out

> to him because I feel depressed a lot of the time too. I feel

hypocritical

> telling him what to do.

> Not an easy situation. I told him tonight I was thinking about going

to

> Debtor's Anonymous because of my financial problems. He made fun of

me

> about it.

> Maybe my brother is just seeing the truth finally and its

making him

> mad.

> Any suggestions would be great.

> Thanks,

> Matt

>

>

>

>

>

> _______________________________________________________

> Get 100% FREE Internet Access powered by Excite

> Visit http://freeworld.excite.com

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Matt:

I'm going to say this and hope you understand it's just my opinion. I

really really hate to give advice.

Don't give him the chapter of the book. Don't give him any more advice

period. Unless and until he expressly asks for it.

If you want to do anything just listen to him. Be available for him when he

needs you and listen to what he says. If you're really afraid he might

attempt suicide feel him out on the subject with something like this.

So and so told me that a friend of his/hers, who had (same number of years

your brother has in the program here) in AA just killed themselves. Can you

believe that? What would make someone do something like that? Stop and

listen to his answer. Once you've heard his answer let him know you

were/are worried he might be that bad off right now.

Read this page now if you can: http://www.afsp.org/about/whattodo.htm

In short be there for him. And don't forget he's coming to you for help,

not bad for someone he once thought was a dry drunk and in denial.

Matt are you considering suicide?

Worried about my brother (long post but please

respond)

[Guest guest]

Yikes Matt... I dunno what to say. It seems that he would reject your

suggestions if he sensed that they were pushy at all. Also, seems that

he's got a lot of repressed emotions which he's pushing down even

further with all the AA activities. You don't have to take his sarcasm.

You can gently point it out when he's being that way & indicate that

it's hurtful.

Maybe just be there for him. Let him know that he can come to you if

he's feeling down or whatever. As far as the ridicule you get in your

conversations, you can point out that you won't take it from him, and

won't give it to him either, that you want to have an emotionally safe

rapport where you two can talk without disrespecting each other.

Apple

[Guest guest]

Matt, I agree with . The URL about suicide is a good one too. I've

had problems with depression, associated with my experience with AA, but

it's a family problem as well.

I come from a big family, and a couple years ago we lost one of my sisters

to cancer. Ever since then, my younger brother has been acting strangely.

In December I spent a day walking in the woods with him and his dog, to talk

about it. I knew that if I told him what to do, it was a sure thing he

would NOT do it; even if he did do it, it would be worthless because he

would be doing it for me and not himself.

So I told him that my folks and some of my siblings have been concerned

about him. I told him about how I've been in therapy- my family knows about

my depression. I figured if I framed the discussion in terms of other

people in the family, it would sound less like advice and more like sharing

information without pressuring him to act in a certain way.

Good luck Matt.

Judith

On Sun, 6 Feb 2000 03:36:12 -0600, 12-step-freeegroups wrote:

> I'm going to say this and hope you understand it's just my opinion. I

> really really hate to give advice.

>

> Don't give him the chapter of the book. Don't give him any more advice

> period. Unless and until he expressly asks for it.

>

> If you want to do anything just listen to him. Be available for him when

he

> needs you and listen to what he says. If you're really afraid he might

> attempt suicide feel him out on the subject with something like this.

>

> So and so told me that a friend of his/hers, who had (same number of

years

> your brother has in the program here) in AA just killed themselves. Can

you

> believe that? What would make someone do something like that? Stop and

> listen to his answer. Once you've heard his answer let him know you

> were/are worried he might be that bad off right now.

>

> Read this page now if you can: http://www.afsp.org/about/whattodo.htm

>

> In short be there for him. And don't forget he's coming to you for help,

> not bad for someone he once thought was a dry drunk and in denial.

_______________________________________________________

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Visit http://freeworld.excite.com

[Guest guest]

Matt, I agree with . The URL about suicide is a good one too. I've

had problems with depression, associated with my experience with AA, but

it's a family problem as well.

I come from a big family, and a couple years ago we lost one of my sisters

to cancer. Ever since then, my younger brother has been acting strangely.

In December I spent a day walking in the woods with him and his dog, to talk

about it. I knew that if I told him what to do, it was a sure thing he

would NOT do it; even if he did do it, it would be worthless because he

would be doing it for me and not himself.

So I told him that my folks and some of my siblings have been concerned

about him. I told him about how I've been in therapy- my family knows about

my depression. I figured if I framed the discussion in terms of other

people in the family, it would sound less like advice and more like sharing

information without pressuring him to act in a certain way.

Good luck Matt.

Judith

On Sun, 6 Feb 2000 03:36:12 -0600, 12-step-freeegroups wrote:

> I'm going to say this and hope you understand it's just my opinion. I

> really really hate to give advice.

>

> Don't give him the chapter of the book. Don't give him any more advice

> period. Unless and until he expressly asks for it.

>

> If you want to do anything just listen to him. Be available for him when

he

> needs you and listen to what he says. If you're really afraid he might

> attempt suicide feel him out on the subject with something like this.

>

> So and so told me that a friend of his/hers, who had (same number of

years

> your brother has in the program here) in AA just killed themselves. Can

you

> believe that? What would make someone do something like that? Stop and

> listen to his answer. Once you've heard his answer let him know you

> were/are worried he might be that bad off right now.

>

> Read this page now if you can: http://www.afsp.org/about/whattodo.htm

>

> In short be there for him. And don't forget he's coming to you for help,

> not bad for someone he once thought was a dry drunk and in denial.

_______________________________________________________

Get 100% FREE Internet Access powered by Excite

Visit http://freeworld.excite.com

[Guest guest]

Thank you Pete.

I appreciate your response.

On Sun, 06 Feb 2000 00:49:33 -0800, 12-step-freeegroups wrote:

> Hi Matt

>

> Giving him that chapter sounds a good idea, though you weaken it by

> satying you are going to DA. This would help perhaps if he were a

> stepper who acknowledged other programs, but from what you say he is

> becoming disillusioned with AA anyway, and hence going to DA yourself

> will not particularly help you communicate with him. Id there any

> non-grouper activity you can do together? He may not be fun company at

> the moment, but if you can get him to go fishing or whatever,

> especially with other ppl, maybe go clubbing and hit on a few women

> perhaps?

>

> Pete

>

> matt wrote:

> original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=12351

> > Hi all,

> > Some people here may have heard me talk about my brother who has been

> > actively involved in AA for several years. In the past, I've talked

> about

> > how worried I am about his disheveled appearance and dark cynicism

> that has

> > overtaken him while in AA.

> > Well, he called me tonight about 2 am and sounded really depressed.

> He

> > plays a computer game for endless hours every day. And he talks

> about how

> > much he hates AA and how he doesn't give a damn what AA people think

> about

> > him.

> > I actually tried to cheer him up by saying: " your life has

> gotten

> > better since you joined AA. You got a college degree, you couldn't

> of done

> > that without AA. " It seems like my brother has become more angry at

> AA

> > since he moved out of my parent's house on started living on my own.

> He

> > seemed a lot happier when he was living with my Dad and chasing his

> degree.

> > But ever since he's been bummed out. Disillusioned with work, the

> program

> > and God. He's even started anti-depressants.

> > My brother is really sarcastic towards me and hard to talk to.

> But I

> > try to stay on the line with him just to make him feel better for a

> while.

> > I want to tell him what I really think: that he needs to look

> outside of AA

> > for friends and happiness. But he gets real defensive when I do that.

> > I'm thinking about making a photocopy of the chapter from a

> book I

> > bought called " Overcoming Lonliness. " The chapter talks about how AA

> and

> > the 12 step program was only intended by its creators to deal with

> alcohol

> > abuse. Its not intended to be used as a social club or a guide to

> fix all

> > of life's problems.

> > I don't know if he'd read it or not. But the chapter is very

> rational and

> > well thought out. It doesn't bash AA, says its great to get people

> sober,

> > but it offers constructive criticism of it.

> > I don't know. My brother just seems disappointed by lots of

> things.

> > I try to reach him, but he hates talking about what he's feeling.

> > My biggest fear is an AA suicide. I know how the program tells

> people

> > not to go to outside sources for answers. And I'm sure they've got my

> > brother convinced that his depression is all his fault. That he

> needs to

> > " get outside of himself " and " quit wallowing in self pity. "

> > I don't think he does that. He works his ass off in AA. He does

> > service work, charity stuff, sponsors others, etc... He couldn't

> work a

> > better program. I'm afraid now that he has been brainwashed and no

> longer

> > trusts non-AA people. And now he doesn't really trust AA people

> either.

> > I hope I'm just being a worry wort. I have a hard time

> reaching out

> > to him because I feel depressed a lot of the time too. I feel

> hypocritical

> > telling him what to do.

> > Not an easy situation. I told him tonight I was thinking about going

> to

> > Debtor's Anonymous because of my financial problems. He made fun of

> me

> > about it.

> > Maybe my brother is just seeing the truth finally and its

> making him

> > mad.

> > Any suggestions would be great.

> > Thanks,

> > Matt

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > _______________________________________________________

> > Get 100% FREE Internet Access powered by Excite

> > Visit http://freeworld.excite.com

> >

>

>

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[Guest guest]

Matt,

I think it would be a good idea if you separated the issues of sobreity

and AA when talking to your brother. I would even expose him to the

alternatives. The Jan/Feb Humnanist has an article on eight options

and would be good information for him. Maybe Albert Ellis's WHEN AA

DOESN'T WORK FOR YOU or Doug Althuser's YOU CAN FREE YOURSELF FROM

ALCOHOL AND DRUGS would be good reading for him right now.

Last fall, a friend with about two years of sobreity in AA became

disenchanted with smoking in meetings. She had previously been very

gung ho. Before I knew it she had become very anti-AA and decided she

could be a moderate drinker. From what I have observed she is back to

the old alcoholic drinking patterns.

I had shared a little information about Smart Recovery, but I think

maybe it was too little too late.

Anyway, good luck.