Re: BPDDissociation/etc. [long, self-centered]

[Guest guest]

Response to " demitria " -

I haven't done the " > " snipping to my reply to this post, because it sounds

almost exactly like something I could have composed. I can totally relate

with this and exact same issues have come up in my life too...almost to a

" T " ...there are just some people who don't fit into to the so called

" normal " American " team player " games in jobs and I haven't worked since

1992...and never felt a part of any " team " before that.

I read an interview by McCartney and in it he basically said if he

wouldn't have got lucky by becoming a Beatle and finding his musical

talents, he would probably be a bum and on the " dole " right now.

I have looked at your website, demitria, and it is pretty clear that you are

very talented artistically. I think alot of artistic people just don't fit

into " mainstream " U.S.A. and thus you have the " slackers " of society, who

are probably very creative and talented, but don't fit into corporate

America, so end up working for a head shop or some other place where you can

show a tattoo or a piercing of something besides your ears and not have some

" dictator " razzing you because you don't buy clothes from L.L. Bean and have

that 'dazzling white smile' ..... " excuse me while I go puke...ggaagg.

> I thought I'd mention that I have been labelled BPD by some of the shrinks

I've been to see in

> the last 10 years...others have declared that my problem is " Affective

Disorder " or

> " Schizoaffective Disorder " or " Borderline Schizoid Personality Disorder " .

It's all word salad

> to me.

>

> Seems I'm standing in the middle of an intersection of a bunch of

different mental illness

> streets (about be hit by the next oncoming bus, probably) and essentially

I just don't try to

> make any sense of these terms any more. I just look at where my own mind

is at, what

> makes it not work the way normal minds do, what the manifestations are...

>

> Like my difficulty with " smiling on demand " , which is a *requirement* for

obtaining and

> keeping most jobs in this world...When someone says something they think

is funny and

> everyone else is laughing and I am just like " uh...ok... " and making a

weak little way-too-late

> forced giggle...My listening to someone talk and my face just doesn't

change or have any

> noticeable expression - my eyes are all over the place, usually looking

down at my feet

> instead of at the other person's face unless I consciously keep reminding

myself I am

> supposed to look at them while I am talking to them...I think that's the

" affective disorder "

> part... And of course answering phones is awful for me; I can't seem to

" put the smile in my

> voice " any more easily than I can just snap it onto my face.

>

> Then there is my lifetime problem with being uninterested in mundane,

everyday reality, this

> has been going on all through childhood, adolescence and my ersatz

adulthood...always

> found " normal " activities like sports, TV watching, birthday parties,

playing with dolls, clothes

> shopping, cooking, and talking about any of these things to be totally

uninteresting. For the

> most part...most sorts of conversations of the " small talk " variety I find

insufferably boring if

> they aren't with a person I feel really close to...Which is why I didn't

keep jobs even before

> my drug period...people just didn't like being around me, I always LOOKED

stoned even if I

> wasn't, and never wanted to go have a drink after work and gossip about

who did what to

> whom, or go to a " Beverly Hills 90210 " party with the people from the

store...and of course

> it's usually a sort of obligation to do these after hours type things.

>

> Of more actual relevance to employment and my lack of it...I can't seem to

concentrate very

> long on boring mental processes like the things people are required to do

at jobs (filing data,

> writing reports, checking in inventory, making schedules, cooking food and

cleaning up, etc.)

> because my mind continually decides it wants to be somewhere else, and

goes there -

> conscious daydreams, sexual fantasizing (especially if it's ovulation

time; around then it's like

> all I can think about!) or flashing into random past memories with

fullforce strength after

> smelling something or hearing a song on the radio or just in my head that

acts to remind me of

> a certain time. And oh! this is just how I can't deal with a *simple*

flunky level job! More

> complex situations completely flummox me...like getting conflicting

instructions from different

> superiors, or having to do two or three things all at the same time that

have to be done by

> yesterday...or having to " delegate responsibility " to different people,

and deal with their

> politics...ARGH!!!

>

> My last job was selling leather fetish gear and expensive trendy rock star

clothing at a Haight

> Street shop. I loved that job because of the atmosphere. But even in

that atmosphere there

> were little allegiances between employees and employers that built up and

eventually turned

> against me. Admittedly even though I really put in the best effort I

could and managed to get

> to work on time each day, my performance wasn't that great, because of my

concentration

> problems (which made me too inexperienced to work the cash register) and

lousy people

> skills (which really didn't make me a great salesperson on the " floor " ) -

But the real reason I

> ended up losing that job was that a rumor started that I had been doing

drugs in the bathroom

> there (which I had not; I wasn't even using at home then) and the owner,

who was VERY

> ACTIVE IN NA, sacked me. (I found out later that of the 12 people who

worked there 9

> of them were NA people. ) After losing that job I came home and my

roommate offered me

> my first taste of heroin. What timing. I did the Stupid Thing and since

then I haven't had any

> job, not counting my 4-year foray into prostitution.

>

> I would probably do well to take up some sort of yoga-like mental

discipline course and give

> it a serious try, see if I can work on controlling my mental flights a

bit. After being

> unemployed for 11 years and before that, never holding a job for more than

3 months at a

> time, though, I don't think my unemployability is going to change

overnight, or maybe at

> all...especially since I am now almost 35 years old with no account for

the huge gap in my

> employment history or the lack of any successful job experience even

before that.

>

> Oh yeah. There was an original POINT to writing all this dreck about my

Borderline Schizo-

> Affective Bipolar Dissasociative Personality Disorder (should I call this

BSABDP? Or just

> BS for short?) The point is, I was never abused. Not even close. I had a

wonderful family

> life, insofar as this was possible given my problems that accrued from not

being a " normal "

> kid or enjoying doing " normal kid things " , and the disappointment and

distress that this

> caused my parents, my father particularly.

>

> There was absolutely no sexual or violent abuse in my young life. I had no

encounters with

> violence AT ALL in my life, until 1993 and early 1994 when I was 28 years

old, when I

> experienced a couple of separate rape incidents - one was

prostitution-related, the other

> crack-related. All that is nother story entirely. I came through them

both with a stunning lack

> of trauma...and the latter incident was the closest I ever came to losing

my life. And yet I

> found that I needed no counseling, no " coping " groups or anything. I think

if it had happened

> when I was 10 or more years younger, that might have been different.

>

> People seem to always be digging into their pasts to try to find out why

their heads are

> broken, and attempting to mend them with an adult understanding of

childhood happenings. I

> think this is excellent therapy if not taken to extremes (a la

Scientology, which takes its

> " auditing " therapy all the way back through past lives you are supposed to

atone for). But I

> think it doesn't always apply. Sometimes I think people just end up with

minds that don't

> work so great in certain areas. They might work fine in others. They're

born with them that

> way. And they don't get the proper education in dealing with people on a

mundane because

> they're just not paying attention to them. Their parents feed them and

house them, their

> immediate needs are taken care of, and because they're children, they do

what children

> normally do, which is play. Though maybe spend more time playing by

themselves. I was

> never expected to do much work except to just do moderately well in

school. My parents

> didn't want me taking crap jobs because they thought I was destined to

become some great

> eccentric genius. I dearly love them for that, but unfortunately, it did

sort of cripple my

> growth a bit.

>

> Non-traumatic things like this can end up causing brains that don't work,

too. And

> sometimes people are just born with them. I don't think there's really a

proper label for my

> " syndrome " .

>

> demitria monde thraam

> transmits at:

> http://thraam.com

[Guest guest]

Someone who can write as coherently as you do certainly does not have a

broken mind (whatever that may be). It sounds to me as though you are

a very introverted person, and perhaps you don't want to be extroverted.

One way to get past a long period of unemployment is to go to school,

and since you are female, you can invent a marriage to go along with

it. No one will question that.

Perhaps these aren't for you, but there are other things that work.

It sounds to me as though you are extremely artistic, and you haven't

developed that aspect of yourself as much as you might find extremely

interesting.

It's constantly amazing to me how many other ways there are of existing

in the world besides the ones that I take for granted. The ones I take

for granted are ones that my parents probably wanted for me. Maybe

that is true for you. It might not hurt to explore that.

mond-@... wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=11723

> Pete wrote:

>

> >Many BPD's also meet

> >the criteria for Dissocitive disorders sich as MPD/DID. Altho it

> >seems likely that some borderlines suffer from limbic siezures and

do

> >not have any form of PTSD, I believe this is a minority, and that

most

> >borderlines have suffered severe child abuse, often sexual (...)

>

> I thought I'd mention that I have been labelled BPD by some of the

shrinks I've been to see in

> the last 10 years...others have declared that my problem is

" Affective Disorder " or

> " Schizoaffective Disorder " or " Borderline Schizoid Personality

Disorder " . It's all word salad

> to me.

>

> Seems I'm standing in the middle of an intersection of a bunch of

different mental illness

> streets (about be hit by the next oncoming bus, probably) and

essentially I just don't try to

> make any sense of these terms any more. I just look at where my own

mind is at, what

> makes it not work the way normal minds do, what the manifestations

are...

>

> Like my difficulty with " smiling on demand " , which is a *requirement*

for obtaining and

> keeping most jobs in this world...When someone says something they

think is funny and

> everyone else is laughing and I am just like " uh...ok... " and making

a weak little way-too-late

> forced giggle...My listening to someone talk and my face just doesn't

change or have any

> noticeable expression - my eyes are all over the place, usually

looking down at my feet

> instead of at the other person's face unless I consciously keep

reminding myself I am

> supposed to look at them while I am talking to them...I think that's

the " affective disorder "

> part... And of course answering phones is awful for me; I can't seem

to " put the smile in my

> voice " any more easily than I can just snap it onto my face.

>

> Then there is my lifetime problem with being uninterested in mundane,

everyday reality, this

> has been going on all through childhood, adolescence and my ersatz

adulthood...always

> found " normal " activities like sports, TV watching, birthday parties,

playing with dolls, clothes

> shopping, cooking, and talking about any of these things to be

totally uninteresting. For the

> most part...most sorts of conversations of the " small talk " variety I

find insufferably boring if

> they aren't with a person I feel really close to...Which is why I

didn't keep jobs even before

> my drug period...people just didn't like being around me, I always

LOOKED stoned even if I

> wasn't, and never wanted to go have a drink after work and gossip

about who did what to

> whom, or go to a " Beverly Hills 90210 " party with the people from the

store...and of course

> it's usually a sort of obligation to do these after hours type things.

>

> Of more actual relevance to employment and my lack of it...I can't

seem to concentrate very

> long on boring mental processes like the things people are required

to do at jobs (filing data,

> writing reports, checking in inventory, making schedules, cooking

food and cleaning up, etc.)

> because my mind continually decides it wants to be somewhere else,

and goes there -

> conscious daydreams, sexual fantasizing (especially if it's ovulation

time; around then it's like

> all I can think about!) or flashing into random past memories with

fullforce strength after

> smelling something or hearing a song on the radio or just in my head

that acts to remind me of

> a certain time. And oh! this is just how I can't deal with a *simple*

flunky level job! More

> complex situations completely flummox me...like getting conflicting

instructions from different

> superiors, or having to do two or three things all at the same time

that have to be done by

> yesterday...or having to " delegate responsibility " to different

people, and deal with their

> politics...ARGH!!!

>

> My last job was selling leather fetish gear and expensive trendy rock

star clothing at a Haight

> Street shop. I loved that job because of the atmosphere. But even

in that atmosphere there

> were little allegiances between employees and employers that built up

and eventually turned

> against me. Admittedly even though I really put in the best effort I

could and managed to get

> to work on time each day, my performance wasn't that great, because

of my concentration

> problems (which made me too inexperienced to work the cash register)

and lousy people

> skills (which really didn't make me a great salesperson on the

" floor " ) - But the real reason I

> ended up losing that job was that a rumor started that I had been

doing drugs in the bathroom

> there (which I had not; I wasn't even using at home then) and the

owner, who was VERY

> ACTIVE IN NA, sacked me. (I found out later that of the 12 people

who worked there 9

> of them were NA people. ) After losing that job I came home and my

roommate offered me

> my first taste of heroin. What timing. I did the Stupid Thing and

since then I haven't had any

> job, not counting my 4-year foray into prostitution.

>

> I would probably do well to take up some sort of yoga-like mental

discipline course and give

> it a serious try, see if I can work on controlling my mental flights

a bit. After being

> unemployed for 11 years and before that, never holding a job for more

than 3 months at a

> time, though, I don't think my unemployability is going to change

overnight, or maybe at

> all...especially since I am now almost 35 years old with no account

for the huge gap in my

> employment history or the lack of any successful job experience even

before that.

>

> Oh yeah. There was an original POINT to writing all this dreck about

my Borderline Schizo-

> Affective Bipolar Dissasociative Personality Disorder (should I call

this BSABDP? Or just

> BS for short?) The point is, I was never abused. Not even close. I

had a wonderful family

> life, insofar as this was possible given my problems that accrued

from not being a " normal "

> kid or enjoying doing " normal kid things " , and the disappointment and

distress that this

> caused my parents, my father particularly.

>

> There was absolutely no sexual or violent abuse in my young life. I

had no encounters with

> violence AT ALL in my life, until 1993 and early 1994 when I was 28

years old, when I

> experienced a couple of separate rape incidents - one was

prostitution-related, the other

> crack-related. All that is nother story entirely. I came through

them both with a stunning lack

> of trauma...and the latter incident was the closest I ever came to

losing my life. And yet I

> found that I needed no counseling, no " coping " groups or anything. I

think if it had happened

> when I was 10 or more years younger, that might have been different.

>

> People seem to always be digging into their pasts to try to find out

why their heads are

> broken, and attempting to mend them with an adult understanding of

childhood happenings. I

> think this is excellent therapy if not taken to extremes (a la

Scientology, which takes its

> " auditing " therapy all the way back through past lives you are

supposed to atone for). But I

> think it doesn't always apply. Sometimes I think people just end up

with minds that don't

> work so great in certain areas. They might work fine in others.

They're born with them that

> way. And they don't get the proper education in dealing with people

on a mundane because

> they're just not paying attention to them. Their parents feed them

and house them, their

> immediate needs are taken care of, and because they're children, they

do what children

> normally do, which is play. Though maybe spend more time playing by

themselves. I was

> never expected to do much work except to just do moderately well in

school. My parents

> didn't want me taking crap jobs because they thought I was destined

to become some great

> eccentric genius. I dearly love them for that, but unfortunately, it

did sort of cripple my

> growth a bit.

>

> Non-traumatic things like this can end up causing brains that don't

work, too. And

> sometimes people are just born with them. I don't think there's

really a proper label for my

> " syndrome " .

>

>

>

> demitria monde thraam

> transmits at:

> http://thraam.com

>

[Guest guest]

Hey great idea!

I can become a 'displaced homemaker' and never let anyone know about my

college degree or some such crapola.

~Trixxi

> One way to get past a long period of unemployment is to go to school,

> and since you are female, you can invent a marriage to go along with

> it. No one will question that.

[Guest guest]

Hi

what I write below is not with you in mind, but I felt necessary to say

it to express my general views on this theme. I emphasise that

although I think abuse has a tremendous role in the origin of BPD, I do

not claim everyone with that dx has been abused.

I have engaged in the nature/nurture debate about BPD and other

disoders on abt 3 different lists now. I dont wish to engage in it

again, but merely wish to emphasise that I am prepared to accept that

something the maybe indistinguishable from BPD may not have been caused

by abuse but by some biological process, but I believe this is much

rarer. what I have noted in those who have disagree with me, is that

so far they have never offered the converse possibility, that someone

can have the disorder entirely as a result of abuse ad without a

biological cause. The extent to which they cling to this insistence on

the universality of a biological process, even though there is no

reason for this to be so, suggests that it has an important idoelogical

basis to it. when the person is te parent of a borderline, the motive

is obvious, but this also extends to sufferers as well, as indicated in

my origianl post on this theme, it dofdged having to address what

actually happened in childhoood, letsone off the hook as far as trying

to overcome the disorder, and also frees one from worry as to what one

might do (or have done) to one's own children.

Pete

mond-@... wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=11723

> Pete wrote:

>

> >Many BPD's also meet

> >the criteria for Dissocitive disorders sich as MPD/DID. Altho it

> >seems likely that some borderlines suffer from limbic siezures and

do

> >not have any form of PTSD, I believe this is a minority, and that

most

> >borderlines have suffered severe child abuse, often sexual (...)

>

> I thought I'd mention that I have been labelled BPD by some of the

shrinks I've been to see in

> the last 10 years...others have declared that my problem is

" Affective Disorder " or

> " Schizoaffective Disorder " or " Borderline Schizoid Personality

Disorder " . It's all word salad

> to me.

>

> Seems I'm standing in the middle of an intersection of a bunch of

different mental illness

> streets (about be hit by the next oncoming bus, probably) and

essentially I just don't try to

> make any sense of these terms any more. I just look at where my own

mind is at, what

> makes it not work the way normal minds do, what the manifestations

are...

>

> Like my difficulty with " smiling on demand " , which is a *requirement*

for obtaining and

> keeping most jobs in this world...When someone says something they

think is funny and

> everyone else is laughing and I am just like " uh...ok... " and making

a weak little way-too-late

> forced giggle...My listening to someone talk and my face just doesn't

change or have any

> noticeable expression - my eyes are all over the place, usually

looking down at my feet

> instead of at the other person's face unless I consciously keep

reminding myself I am

> supposed to look at them while I am talking to them...I think that's

the " affective disorder "

> part... And of course answering phones is awful for me; I can't seem

to " put the smile in my

> voice " any more easily than I can just snap it onto my face.

>

> Then there is my lifetime problem with being uninterested in mundane,

everyday reality, this

> has been going on all through childhood, adolescence and my ersatz

adulthood...always

> found " normal " activities like sports, TV watching, birthday parties,

playing with dolls, clothes

> shopping, cooking, and talking about any of these things to be

totally uninteresting. For the

> most part...most sorts of conversations of the " small talk " variety I

find insufferably boring if

> they aren't with a person I feel really close to...Which is why I

didn't keep jobs even before

> my drug period...people just didn't like being around me, I always

LOOKED stoned even if I

> wasn't, and never wanted to go have a drink after work and gossip

about who did what to

> whom, or go to a " Beverly Hills 90210 " party with the people from the

store...and of course

> it's usually a sort of obligation to do these after hours type things.

>

> Of more actual relevance to employment and my lack of it...I can't

seem to concentrate very

> long on boring mental processes like the things people are required

to do at jobs (filing data,

> writing reports, checking in inventory, making schedules, cooking

food and cleaning up, etc.)

> because my mind continually decides it wants to be somewhere else,

and goes there -

> conscious daydreams, sexual fantasizing (especially if it's ovulation

time; around then it's like

> all I can think about!) or flashing into random past memories with

fullforce strength after

> smelling something or hearing a song on the radio or just in my head

that acts to remind me of

> a certain time. And oh! this is just how I can't deal with a *simple*

flunky level job! More

> complex situations completely flummox me...like getting conflicting

instructions from different

> superiors, or having to do two or three things all at the same time

that have to be done by

> yesterday...or having to " delegate responsibility " to different

people, and deal with their

> politics...ARGH!!!

>

> My last job was selling leather fetish gear and expensive trendy rock

star clothing at a Haight

> Street shop. I loved that job because of the atmosphere. But even

in that atmosphere there

> were little allegiances between employees and employers that built up

and eventually turned

> against me. Admittedly even though I really put in the best effort I

could and managed to get

> to work on time each day, my performance wasn't that great, because

of my concentration

> problems (which made me too inexperienced to work the cash register)

and lousy people

> skills (which really didn't make me a great salesperson on the

" floor " ) - But the real reason I

> ended up losing that job was that a rumor started that I had been

doing drugs in the bathroom

> there (which I had not; I wasn't even using at home then) and the

owner, who was VERY

> ACTIVE IN NA, sacked me. (I found out later that of the 12 people

who worked there 9

> of them were NA people. ) After losing that job I came home and my

roommate offered me

> my first taste of heroin. What timing. I did the Stupid Thing and

since then I haven't had any

> job, not counting my 4-year foray into prostitution.

>

> I would probably do well to take up some sort of yoga-like mental

discipline course and give

> it a serious try, see if I can work on controlling my mental flights

a bit. After being

> unemployed for 11 years and before that, never holding a job for more

than 3 months at a

> time, though, I don't think my unemployability is going to change

overnight, or maybe at

> all...especially since I am now almost 35 years old with no account

for the huge gap in my

> employment history or the lack of any successful job experience even

before that.

>

> Oh yeah. There was an original POINT to writing all this dreck about

my Borderline Schizo-

> Affective Bipolar Dissasociative Personality Disorder (should I call

this BSABDP? Or just

> BS for short?) The point is, I was never abused. Not even close. I

had a wonderful family

> life, insofar as this was possible given my problems that accrued

from not being a " normal "

> kid or enjoying doing " normal kid things " , and the disappointment and

distress that this

> caused my parents, my father particularly.

>

> There was absolutely no sexual or violent abuse in my young life. I

had no encounters with

> violence AT ALL in my life, until 1993 and early 1994 when I was 28

years old, when I

> experienced a couple of separate rape incidents - one was

prostitution-related, the other

> crack-related. All that is nother story entirely. I came through

them both with a stunning lack

> of trauma...and the latter incident was the closest I ever came to

losing my life. And yet I

> found that I needed no counseling, no " coping " groups or anything. I

think if it had happened

> when I was 10 or more years younger, that might have been different.

>

> People seem to always be digging into their pasts to try to find out

why their heads are

> broken, and attempting to mend them with an adult understanding of

childhood happenings. I

> think this is excellent therapy if not taken to extremes (a la

Scientology, which takes its

> " auditing " therapy all the way back through past lives you are

supposed to atone for). But I

> think it doesn't always apply. Sometimes I think people just end up

with minds that don't

> work so great in certain areas. They might work fine in others.

They're born with them that

> way. And they don't get the proper education in dealing with people

on a mundane because

> they're just not paying attention to them. Their parents feed them

and house them, their

> immediate needs are taken care of, and because they're children, they

do what children

> normally do, which is play. Though maybe spend more time playing by

themselves. I was

> never expected to do much work except to just do moderately well in

school. My parents

> didn't want me taking crap jobs because they thought I was destined

to become some great

> eccentric genius. I dearly love them for that, but unfortunately, it

did sort of cripple my

> growth a bit.

>

> Non-traumatic things like this can end up causing brains that don't

work, too. And

> sometimes people are just born with them. I don't think there's

really a proper label for my

> " syndrome " .

>

>

>

> demitria monde thraam

> transmits at:

> http://thraam.com

>

[Guest guest]

I'm surprised that sufferers cling to the biological theory.

I'm ignorant about this subject except that I have read posts from

people who have been diagnosed as BPD and I have read the DSM and done

a little reading on the net. None of those sources mentioned abuse as

a cause. However, I'd like to point out that abuse can be very subtle.

Perhaps subtle abuse shouldn't be termed abuse at all -- but there is

certainly much disavowing of children's emotions and perceptions on

parents' part. Who knows what effect this may have?

" pete watts " wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=11750

> Hi

>

> what I write below is not with you in mind, but I felt necessary to

say

> it to express my general views on this theme. I emphasise that

> although I think abuse has a tremendous role in the origin of BPD, I

do

> not claim everyone with that dx has been abused.

>

> I have engaged in the nature/nurture debate about BPD and other

> disoders on abt 3 different lists now. I dont wish to engage in it

> again, but merely wish to emphasise that I am prepared to accept that

> something the maybe indistinguishable from BPD may not have been

caused

> by abuse but by some biological process, but I believe this is much

> rarer. what I have noted in those who have disagree with me, is that

> so far they have never offered the converse possibility, that someone

> can have the disorder entirely as a result of abuse ad without a

> biological cause. The extent to which they cling to this insistence

on

> the universality of a biological process, even though there is no

> reason for this to be so, suggests that it has an important

idoelogical

> basis to it. when the person is te parent of a borderline, the motive

> is obvious, but this also extends to sufferers as well, as indicated

in

> my origianl post on this theme, it dofdged having to address what

> actually happened in childhoood, letsone off the hook as far as trying

> to overcome the disorder, and also frees one from worry as to what one

> might do (or have done) to one's own children.

>

> Pete

>

> mond-@... wrote:

> original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=117

23

> > Pete wrote:

> >

> > >Many BPD's also meet

> > >the criteria for Dissocitive disorders sich as MPD/DID. Altho it

> > >seems likely that some borderlines suffer from limbic siezures and

> do

> > >not have any form of PTSD, I believe this is a minority, and that

> most

> > >borderlines have suffered severe child abuse, often sexual (...)

> >

> > I thought I'd mention that I have been labelled BPD by some of the

> shrinks I've been to see in

> > the last 10 years...others have declared that my problem is

> " Affective Disorder " or

> > " Schizoaffective Disorder " or " Borderline Schizoid Personality

> Disorder " . It's all word salad

> > to me.

> >

> > Seems I'm standing in the middle of an intersection of a bunch of

> different mental illness

> > streets (about be hit by the next oncoming bus, probably) and

> essentially I just don't try to

> > make any sense of these terms any more. I just look at where my own

> mind is at, what

> > makes it not work the way normal minds do, what the manifestations

> are...

> >

> > Like my difficulty with " smiling on demand " , which is a

*requirement*

> for obtaining and

> > keeping most jobs in this world...When someone says something they

> think is funny and

> > everyone else is laughing and I am just like " uh...ok... " and making

> a weak little way-too-late

> > forced giggle...My listening to someone talk and my face just

doesn't

> change or have any

> > noticeable expression - my eyes are all over the place, usually

> looking down at my feet

> > instead of at the other person's face unless I consciously keep

> reminding myself I am

> > supposed to look at them while I am talking to them...I think that's

> the " affective disorder "

> > part... And of course answering phones is awful for me; I can't seem

> to " put the smile in my

> > voice " any more easily than I can just snap it onto my face.

> >

> > Then there is my lifetime problem with being uninterested in

mundane,

> everyday reality, this

> > has been going on all through childhood, adolescence and my ersatz

> adulthood...always

> > found " normal " activities like sports, TV watching, birthday

parties,

> playing with dolls, clothes

> > shopping, cooking, and talking about any of these things to be

> totally uninteresting. For the

> > most part...most sorts of conversations of the " small talk " variety

I

> find insufferably boring if

> > they aren't with a person I feel really close to...Which is why I

> didn't keep jobs even before

> > my drug period...people just didn't like being around me, I always

> LOOKED stoned even if I

> > wasn't, and never wanted to go have a drink after work and gossip

> about who did what to

> > whom, or go to a " Beverly Hills 90210 " party with the people from

the

> store...and of course

> > it's usually a sort of obligation to do these after hours type

things.

> >

> > Of more actual relevance to employment and my lack of it...I can't

> seem to concentrate very

> > long on boring mental processes like the things people are required

> to do at jobs (filing data,

> > writing reports, checking in inventory, making schedules, cooking

> food and cleaning up, etc.)

> > because my mind continually decides it wants to be somewhere else,

> and goes there -

> > conscious daydreams, sexual fantasizing (especially if it's

ovulation

> time; around then it's like

> > all I can think about!) or flashing into random past memories with

> fullforce strength after

> > smelling something or hearing a song on the radio or just in my head

> that acts to remind me of

> > a certain time. And oh! this is just how I can't deal with a

*simple*

> flunky level job! More

> > complex situations completely flummox me...like getting conflicting

> instructions from different

> > superiors, or having to do two or three things all at the same time

> that have to be done by

> > yesterday...or having to " delegate responsibility " to different

> people, and deal with their

> > politics...ARGH!!!

> >

> > My last job was selling leather fetish gear and expensive trendy

rock

> star clothing at a Haight

> > Street shop. I loved that job because of the atmosphere. But even

> in that atmosphere there

> > were little allegiances between employees and employers that built

up

> and eventually turned

> > against me. Admittedly even though I really put in the best effort

I

> could and managed to get

> > to work on time each day, my performance wasn't that great, because

> of my concentration

> > problems (which made me too inexperienced to work the cash register)

> and lousy people

> > skills (which really didn't make me a great salesperson on the

> " floor " ) - But the real reason I

> > ended up losing that job was that a rumor started that I had been

> doing drugs in the bathroom

> > there (which I had not; I wasn't even using at home then) and the

> owner, who was VERY

> > ACTIVE IN NA, sacked me. (I found out later that of the 12 people

> who worked there 9

> > of them were NA people. ) After losing that job I came home and my

> roommate offered me

> > my first taste of heroin. What timing. I did the Stupid Thing and

> since then I haven't had any

> > job, not counting my 4-year foray into prostitution.

> >

> > I would probably do well to take up some sort of yoga-like mental

> discipline course and give

> > it a serious try, see if I can work on controlling my mental flights

> a bit. After being

> > unemployed for 11 years and before that, never holding a job for

more

> than 3 months at a

> > time, though, I don't think my unemployability is going to change

> overnight, or maybe at

> > all...especially since I am now almost 35 years old with no account

> for the huge gap in my

> > employment history or the lack of any successful job experience even

> before that.

> >

> > Oh yeah. There was an original POINT to writing all this dreck

about

> my Borderline Schizo-

> > Affective Bipolar Dissasociative Personality Disorder (should I

call

> this BSABDP? Or just

> > BS for short?) The point is, I was never abused. Not even close. I

> had a wonderful family

> > life, insofar as this was possible given my problems that accrued

> from not being a " normal "

> > kid or enjoying doing " normal kid things " , and the disappointment

and

> distress that this

> > caused my parents, my father particularly.

> >

> > There was absolutely no sexual or violent abuse in my young life. I

> had no encounters with

> > violence AT ALL in my life, until 1993 and early 1994 when I was 28

> years old, when I

> > experienced a couple of separate rape incidents - one was

> prostitution-related, the other

> > crack-related. All that is nother story entirely. I came through

> them both with a stunning lack

> > of trauma...and the latter incident was the closest I ever came to

> losing my life. And yet I

> > found that I needed no counseling, no " coping " groups or anything. I

> think if it had happened

> > when I was 10 or more years younger, that might have been

different.

> >

> > People seem to always be digging into their pasts to try to find out

> why their heads are

> > broken, and attempting to mend them with an adult understanding of

> childhood happenings. I

> > think this is excellent therapy if not taken to extremes (a la

> Scientology, which takes its

> > " auditing " therapy all the way back through past lives you are

> supposed to atone for). But I

> > think it doesn't always apply. Sometimes I think people just end up

> with minds that don't

> > work so great in certain areas. They might work fine in others.

> They're born with them that

> > way. And they don't get the proper education in dealing with people

> on a mundane because

> > they're just not paying attention to them. Their parents feed them

> and house them, their

> > immediate needs are taken care of, and because they're children,

they

> do what children

> > normally do, which is play. Though maybe spend more time playing by

> themselves. I was

> > never expected to do much work except to just do moderately well in

> school. My parents

> > didn't want me taking crap jobs because they thought I was destined

> to become some great

> > eccentric genius. I dearly love them for that, but unfortunately,

it

> did sort of cripple my

> > growth a bit.

> >

> > Non-traumatic things like this can end up causing brains that don't

> work, too. And

> > sometimes people are just born with them. I don't think there's

> really a proper label for my

> > " syndrome " .

> >

> >

> >

> > demitria monde thraam

> > transmits at:

> > http://thraam.com

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Kayleigh

" kayleigh s " wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=11752

> I'm surprised that sufferers cling to the biological theory.

I was too - until I thought about why they do it. Perhps the best

evidence that I am not a borderline myslef is that I dont subscribe to

it.

>

> I'm ignorant about this subject except that I have read posts from

> people who have been diagnosed as BPD and I have read the DSM and done

> a little reading on the net. None of those sources mentioned abuse as

> a cause.

The DSM IIIR certainly mentioned the very high association with child

sexual abuse as a likely causative factor. I think the DSM IV also does

- almost certainly it will list it as an associated factor, and unless

there is a causative link imo this association is very hard to explain.

Either you have only done a very little reading on the net, or the

information on the net is very poor. It is a long time since I looked

at many BPD related sites on the web, but I would be surprised, and

very concerned if any that claimed to deal with the issue in any

methodical way that did not make reference to sexual abuse. I am sure

BPDCentral used to,but I have not looked at it for a long while. As a

resource meant mainly for family and SO's of borderlines, it may have

succumbed to the biological bias. Other sites on the " boderline ring "

connected to BPDCentral are I think create by sufferers, many of them

containing their personal stories referring to sexual abuse. In one I

saw recently a woman describes " By the age of 12 I had become

proficient at oral sex " .

> However, I'd like to point out that abuse can be very subtle.

> Perhaps subtle abuse shouldn't be termed abuse at all -- but there is

> certainly much disavowing of children's emotions and perceptions on

> parents' part. Who knows what effect this may have?

This is rather like the line Marsha Linehan, a therapist specialising

in the treatment of BPD, takes. Her description of the etiology of BPD

talks of an " invalidating environment " which includes things like being

refused a glass of water! Add in biological sensitivity, = BPD. Why am

I so skeptical about this? Because as someone who has treated scores,

maybe now hundreds of borderlines, Linehan must surely know how common

sexual abuse histories of borderlines is, as well as phyical and

emotional abuse. Yet why does she talk of trivia like refusing a glass

of water without even furnishing examples of the severe abuse known to

have occurred to a great many, probably most, borderlines, like a

pre-teen being taught to perform oral sex?

Linehan has done borderlines sufferers a great service in devising

dialectical-behavioural therapy, DBT, to help them. But rather like

Freud, imo she has flinched away from continuing to proclaim the

reality of what causes the symptoms she fights. How much easier it is,

to slide the problems into being those that arent so terrible to listen

to, to being the kind of thing every parent does some of he time, which

mean there must have been something defective with the sufferer for it

to have hurt them so bad....

[Guest guest]

But *of course* it's nothing more than word salad. Your 'disorder' is an

artistic temperament.

Your 'symptoms' are commonplace. None of them that you have described are

really alarming. I share some of them. Failing to smile on cue, laughing too

late at jokes... Problem: my catalogue of jokes goes back to about 1956 --

something new comes along only about 2x/decade. I used to construct little

fantasies that would enable me to smile at my co-workers. Sometimes I was

the good shepherd, and they were my sheep. Once I blew my cover by informing

my boss, most solemnly, that I would be willing to grant his request if he

would bring me the broomstick of the Wicked Witch of the West.

Your posts and your website demonstrate that you don't have any kind of

problem with attention or concentration when you are interested in doing

something. The warmth and wit are insonsistent with any kind of

'schizo-affective' thingie, and you make too much sense to be really really

bipolar.

When it comes to getting a j**, you'd probably have more fun working with

some kind of outfit that does graphic arts or communication than working as

a clerk in a shop.

All the best,

wally

-----Original Message-----

>Pete wrote:

>

>>Many BPD's also meet

>>the criteria for Dissocitive disorders sich as MPD/DID. Altho it

>>seems likely that some borderlines suffer from limbic siezures and do

>>not have any form of PTSD, I believe this is a minority, and that most

>>borderlines have suffered severe child abuse, often sexual (...)

>

>I thought I'd mention that I have been labelled BPD by some of the shrinks

I've been to see in

>the last 10 years...others have declared that my problem is " Affective

Disorder " or

> " Schizoaffective Disorder " or " Borderline Schizoid Personality Disorder " .

It's all word salad

>to me...