Re: I hate them I hate them I hate them -Reply

[Guest guest]

Dear ,

I enjoyed reading what you wrote in reply to . I had my " moment of

clarity " around the new year time and I used some morphine yesterday. The

good thing is that I didn't enjoy it,I haven't turned into a drug-seeking

monster and haven't experienced " guilt and shame " . It was an exercise in

taking my power back. I don't really propose to do it again but I do intend

to go out tonight with some non-fellowship friends and enjoy a pint or maybe

two.

I think it is going to be hard because since I got to a rehab about 2 years

ago I have socialised a lot in NA. I have learned a lot about the inner

spirit from doing martial arts, and refuse to look upon myself as powerless a

moment longer. I think the next few months are going to be really difficult

and would appreciate any advice anyone has to give.

Regards to one and all

Dickon

[Guest guest]

When I left AA (only a couple of days ago but definitely for

good), I severed ALL ties; as in: Moved out of my " sober "

house, got all 4 of the girls I was sponsoring new sponsors,

and most importantly, kept my plans and my ideas between

myself and my family and friends outside of AA. My reason

for doing this was simple. I wanted my decision to effect

others as little as possible. I have no interest in converting,

transforming, and most importantly, pushing my ideas on

anyone else. I believe that this is what has been done to me

for the past 2 years! Sure, you could argue that it is my duty

as someone who has " woken up " to share my realizations w/

others. However, the way I look at it is, the only person I

know what is best for is myself. No one else knows what's

best for me and I don't know what's best for anyone else. I

will not " rescue " on endanger anyone else. After all, as the

" aadeprogramming " web site states, " it's America.......it's a

free country " .

If anyone else is to want to leave, they are going to have to

have the idea themselves. I promise to continue to help

anyone who has come to the same realization I have in

anyway I can, to " get their brain out of hock! " I will do this

b/c I know how much this web site and all of your support

has meant to me.

Thanks again and keep writing!

-

[Guest guest]

Dear Dave,

Thank you for the advice. For what it's worth I just got back from the pub

after having a pint and a half (if anything thinking that I didn't much care

for the final half) and have come to the conclusion that I am not going to

change into a demon on account of it.

I think what you say about motivations for destructive using and drinking are

important. In the last two years I have learned a lot about myself even if

this has been filtered through a somewhat erroneous 12-step world-view. I

have also come to enjoy life and am now doing a PhD and have hobbies I enjoy.

The idea of getting drunk doesn't really appeal - at least if it entails a

hang-over.

I needed to do what I did because by so doing I was saying farewell to the 12

steps. I haven't as it happens had time to decompress and in fact only

finished my last bit of area NA service today. But like I think i mentioned

earlier the fact that I feel surprisingly calm and no sense of impending doom

makes me think I have made progress.

All the best

Dickon

[Guest guest]

,

I agree with the way you are going about leaving.

I must tell you that I felt an enormous amount of betrayal and

loneliness at first. My last sponsor was one of the first women in

AA-if she's still alive she's about 95, now-it's officially been 3

years since I accepted my 15-year token, walked out and haven't gone

back.

Out of all the people I had contact with in AA for those 15 years, I

have precisely one real friend.

I feel tuggings from time to time, but never enough to actually go to a

meeting. Looking back on it, I realize I was lied to and decieved and

I BOUGHT IT HOOK, LINE AND SINKER.

I don't know if most of the people in AA were like me: I felt there was

no where else to turn, I was a terminal alcoholic, I would surely die

if I were to drink and AA was the only way. I tried like crazy

(literally, now that I think of it!) to accept a " higher power " -be

spiritual, in the AA " way " . I felt phoney, like I didn't fit, like I

wasn't " doing it right " and what I have realized since leaving is that

AA played on the guilt and shame I already had as an abused person and

dug me even more into that cycle.

I allowed this to be pounded into me for a decade and a half. More

guilt , more shame, more beatings...today I am only beginning to

realize the magnitude of the damage AA did to me in that sense. It

takes great effort for me not to beat on myself, but at least I am

starting to recognize when I'm NOT beating on myself.

On New Year's Eve, I had a small glass of Grand Marnier. It was very

symbolic for me and I had many reasons for doing it. The biggest

reason was to prove to myself that one drink did not make me drunk and

therefore I was still sober. I am doing it my way, now. I am freeing

myself from years of misconceptions.

You are right about not preaching about your decision. I have let

people in AA know I am not going to meetings any more and they

instantly " know " I am " back out " . Horsehockey. Brick walls don't

listen. A few years ago, I would not have believed I could walk away,

either. I have referred this site to a few people, but I don't

grandstand. I'm glad I found it, because I feel better about myself

now than I ever have in my life. MY life is no bed of roses, but I am

gentler with myself than ever before and that is the biggest gift I

have given myself. (THANKS, Apple! If you want an essay from me for

your book, I'd be VERY honored!)

Love,

karen liptz wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=11044

> When I left AA (only a couple of days ago but definitely for

> good), I severed ALL ties; as in: Moved out of my " sober "

> house, got all 4 of the girls I was sponsoring new sponsors,

> and most importantly, kept my plans and my ideas between

> myself and my family and friends outside of AA. My reason

> for doing this was simple. I wanted my decision to effect

> others as little as possible. I have no interest in converting,

> transforming, and most importantly, pushing my ideas on

> anyone else. I believe that this is what has been done to me

> for the past 2 years! Sure, you could argue that it is my duty

> as someone who has " woken up " to share my realizations w/

> others. However, the way I look at it is, the only person I

> know what is best for is myself. No one else knows what's

> best for me and I don't know what's best for anyone else. I

> will not " rescue " on endanger anyone else. After all, as the

> " aadeprogramming " web site states, " it's America.......it's a

> free country " .

>

> If anyone else is to want to leave, they are going to have to

> have the idea themselves. I promise to continue to help

> anyone who has come to the same realization I have in

> anyway I can, to " get their brain out of hock! " I will do this

> b/c I know how much this web site and all of your support

> has meant to me.

>

> Thanks again and keep writing!

>

> -

[Guest guest]

dickon, i think you have a pretty good head on your shoulders, i think

you will do ok. maybe someone who moderates here can give you some

input. my advise (im abstinent) is 2 part. first be aware of what you

were getting or seeking out of your habit in first place. i personally

think i could perhaps moderate if choose to, because i no longer desire

the medicate my emotions or self destruct and punish myself (which is

what i seeking with my habit). at same time i am a litle scared to do

so, becasue he alcohol tends to make me a little depressed, and i

really dont need any artificaly induced depression.

and second, i wonder about those who drink who have just left the

Program. AA spends allot of energy teaching self fulfilling prophesies

about what happens to those who leave. i think its wise for people to

decompress for a period of time just to shake all the AA bullshit out

and figure out how sobriety works for themselves. maybe you already

have gone thru some of this. either way, i think you have a good

foundation in personal empowerment. i believe self respect is very

important. just as important is knowing what it is about yourself and

life sober that makes the alternative of self destructive behavior

unappealing.

dave

dickon-@... wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=11051

> Dear ,

>

> I enjoyed reading what you wrote in reply to . I had my " moment

of

> clarity " around the new year time and I used some morphine yesterday.

The

> good thing is that I didn't enjoy it,I haven't turned into a

drug-seeking

> monster and haven't experienced " guilt and shame " . It was an exercise

in

> taking my power back. I don't really propose to do it again but I do

intend

> to go out tonight with some non-fellowship friends and enjoy a pint

or maybe

> two.

>

> I think it is going to be hard because since I got to a rehab about 2

years

> ago I have socialised a lot in NA. I have learned a lot about the

inner

> spirit from doing martial arts, and refuse to look upon myself as

powerless a

> moment longer. I think the next few months are going to be really

difficult

> and would appreciate any advice anyone has to give.

>

> Regards to one and all

>

> Dickon

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

(THANKS, Apple! If you want an essay from me for

your book, I'd be VERY honored!)

Love,

Yes, , please. Remember, it's about deprogramming & rebuilding,

not the same as 's book OK?

Thanks!

apple

[Guest guest]

> I needed to do what I did because by so doing I was saying farewell to the 12

> steps. I haven't as it happens had time to decompress and in fact only

> finished my last bit of area NA service today. But like I think i mentioned

> earlier the fact that I feel surprisingly calm and no sense of impending doom

> makes me think I have made progress.

>

> All the best

>

> Dickon

Hi There,

I Resemble those remarks. I also drank as a right of passage out of AA.

I figured the only way I could really burn my bridges with AA was to do

just that. 10 Years was all I really had going for me in that rat's nest

of pious claptrap. I just couldn't sit around and listen to any more AA

commercials. It is so goddamn boring, and a pitiful substitute for living.

I think the choice between an alcoholic death and a life in AA is a

terrible quandary tantamount to being offered the option of being burned

at the stake or having fire ants forced up your rectum. Thankfully I

have transcended the disease of alcoholism and no longer need to worry

about being damned to the untold agonies of 12 Step Purgatory.

[Guest guest]

Thanks ,

Give me some help with this deprogramming stuff please. I had a whole glass

of wine today with my friends, poured myself a second and didn't drink it cos

I didn't really feel like it. Why have I been being fed all this " powerless "

nonsense for so long. Or am I simply in denial :-).

I can see it's going to take me some time to move on from it all, but it is

nice to know I'm not alone. I think i'm going to take a softly softly

approach with fellowhip friends, unless anyone would suggest I do something

drastic. I don't espouse the in-your-face approach. Besides I still have to

get comfortable with my position and try to overcome all those messages that

will try to drag me down.

If anything XA seems to be a self-fulfilling prophesy of doom. If people were

told that if they had a drink or used drugs once it was really nothing to

worry about, instead of all the song and dance that occurs, I'm sure people

wouldn't so often end up going back to destructive habits.

Anyway - this is day 3 out of the 12 steps and it seems OK. It's certainly

given me an incentive to be nice to anyone I know not on the program.

keep smiling

Dickon