Re: Gays and addiction

[Guest guest]

Hi all,

Thanks for the recognition of World Aids Day. While what you say is

largely true

I have learned that these are all still not excuses for me to drink. They

are reasons for me to continue work for equality. I lost my best friend to

AIDS in 1995. I was thinking today how I need to get reinvolved with gay

activism

As far as my comment about excuses, I should say that I am coming form

a point of view which says that the choise to use has nothing to do with

anything in my life, or in the world. It is true also, that I find that

sober, I can be more useful for the causes I believe in.

I realize that some on the list use moderation appraoches. I am

speaking only for myself. I do not beleive that eveyone need do what seems

to be working for me.

Cashin

[Guest guest]

Hi Trixxi,

I didn't mean to say that you were implying that these are excuses. Sadly,

I used them as such, and I am others have. I am very glad to see the many

alternatives to the bar scene around today, bu yes, we need more. Thanks for

your thoughful post.

[Guest guest]

I didn't mean to imply that the things I wrote about were excuses to use but

the big picture of being gay for alot of years was drinking because the

bars/clubs were the place to be for so long.

~Trixxi

Re: Gays and addiction

> Hi all,

> Thanks for the recognition of World Aids Day. While what you say is

> largely true

> I have learned that these are all still not excuses for me to drink. They

> are reasons for me to continue work for equality. I lost my best friend

to

> AIDS in 1995. I was thinking today how I need to get reinvolved with gay

> activism

> As far as my comment about excuses, I should say that I am coming

form

> a point of view which says that the choise to use has nothing to do with

> anything in my life, or in the world. It is true also, that I find that

> sober, I can be more useful for the causes I believe in.

> I realize that some on the list use moderation appraoches. I am

> speaking only for myself. I do not beleive that eveyone need do what

seems

> to be working for me.

> Cashin

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> -- 20 megs of disk space in your group's Document Vault

> -- /docvault/12-step-free/?m=1

>

>

[Guest guest]

I think the main reason people abuse alcohol and drugs has to do with

low self-esteem.

Most of the gay and lesbian people I have known fit into the category

of " substance abusers " . This is very sad. Most of the g/l I know are

very creative and talented.

In the small AA group I was in, two of the members were out of the

closet. But while " working the program " , these people were stiffled.

Their creativity and giftedness disappeared.

They say that one in ten is either gay or lesbian. That means that 10

of those first 100 assholes of 12-step cult discovery were G/L.

I wonder if Bill or Dr Bob ever ventured into the sexual unknown!

My point is (I think) that AA represses everyone, but I'd bet money

that it is extrememly dangerous for those with an alternative lifestyle.

butterbean-@... wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=10002

> Hi all -

> If one takes a look at the g/l/b/t (gay/lesbian/bisexual/transgender)

> community, I think it's pretty obvious why this is a high risk group

for

> addiction(s).

> 1)Not until VERY RECENTLY the ONLY place to socialize with others in

the

> g/l/b/t community, was the " gay bar " . Up until the time of the

" Stonewall

> Riots " in 1969, police were ALWAYS raiding and harassing gay bars.

The

> riots are now celebrated as " Gay Pride Day(s) " , being that the gay

> subculture had ENOUGH of being harassed for going into a gay bar and

being

> potentially raided and arrested WITH many arrests being listed in

public

> NEWSPAPERS.

> 2) MANY MANY MANY g/l/b/t people were taught they were 'sinners' or

were

> 'taunted' verbally or GAY BASHED, which still happens quite frequently

> TODAY. (example - the Oct. 1998 gay bashing of Shepard in

Wyoming or

> websites like http://www.godhatesfags.com .)

> It is NO WONDER that the g/l/b/t community turns to booze and or

drugs to

> 'numb' out all of the HATRED they have encountered. I have a gay male

friend

> who was DISOWNED by his family at age 16 for being gay.

> 3) This one I think is really pathetic: Alot of Gay events are

sponsored by

> distilleries and/or breweries. If you pick up a Gay magazine or

newspaper,

> there is ALWAYS a huge ad in it or maybe several, targeting the Gay

> community with glossy booze and beer ads.

>

> Suffice to say - if I thought I might be a " condemned to death

sinner " or

> " disowned " by family, friends, co-worker's, X-tian right wing

fanantic's etc

> etc I think picking up a bottle or some pills might be a great way of

> dealing with all of the bigotry, hatred and rhetoric spewed out all

over the

> place in regards to sexual orientation.

>

> Today is WORLD AIDS DAY. And HIV/AIDS aint just for gays anymore.

Thanks

> to 1980's right wing government cut backs, crucial scientific

research into

> developing HIV/AIDS vaccines and other treatments were placed WAY on

the

> back burner. Gee, THANKS Ronnie and !

> Remembering my HIV + friends -

> ~Trixxi

>

[Guest guest]

" vomiticus vomitophile " wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=10008

> I think the main reason people abuse alcohol and drugs has to do with

> low self-esteem.

> Most of the gay and lesbian people I have known fit into the category

> of " substance abusers " . This is very sad. Most of the g/l I know are

> very creative and talented.

> In the small AA group I was in, two of the members were out of the

> closet. But while " working the program " , these people were stiffled.

> Their creativity and giftedness disappeared.

> They say that one in ten is either gay or lesbian. That means that 10

> of those first 100 assholes of 12-step cult discovery were G/L.

> I wonder if Bill or Dr Bob ever ventured into the sexual unknown!

> My point is (I think) that AA represses everyone, but I'd bet money

> that it is extrememly dangerous for those with an alternative

lifestyle.

>

>

-------------------------------------

Actually, in all urban areas, there are " gay AA " meetings aplenty.

Gays can just as easily get sucked into believing that sobriety

entails endless " moral inventories " and " conscious contact " with a

sobriety god as straights. I've never heard of anyone being shamed

about being gay or told to include it as a " defect " in their inventory;

I expect it would be considered an " outside issue " . But latent

homophobia is avoided by attending meetings specifically for

gays/lesbians.

BTW Vomit, did you know that the founder of the Oxford Group,

Buchman, was a not-too-closeted gay man? Also a creepy control

freak and religious fanatic, who was especially uptight about

masturbation, considering it a grave " moral defect " . He was asked to

take his " spiritual " group out of several college campuses after

complaints about him asking for intimate details about the sex lives of

young men who came to him for " spiritual counseling " . Later Bill W.

became his protege.

~Rita

[Guest guest]

I hadn't really thought about this before, but I have encountered plenty of gay

men and some lesbians in meetings. Reason I remember is, one of the better

meetings I ever went to dealt with a self-employed HIV+ guy's topic of " How do I

get health insurance? " Lots of practical suggestions, ending with joining the

Chamber of Commerce. He reported back a week later that he had joined the

Chamber of Commerce and was participating in their group health plan.

There were a number of gays in that meeting. There was another HIV+ guy who

started a housecleaning service and hired only other HIV+ people. There was a

rather well-off banker who was kind enough to be an escort for me when I had

social obligations I didn't want to go to but couldn't get out of (like the

office Xmas party). I learned that these people were gay only because of

getting to know them personally outside the meeting.

The topic of their sexuality never came up and was never commented upon except

in the kind of limited circumstances I described above. If anyone at the

meeting considered it relevant to why we were there, he kept his mouth shut.

---

Kayleigh

Zz

zZ

|\ z _,,,---,,_

/,`.-'`' _ ;-;;,_

|,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-'

'---''(_/--' `-'\_)

> " vomiticus vomitophile " wrote:

>original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=10008

>

>> I think the main reason people abuse alcohol and drugs has to do with

>> low self-esteem.

>> Most of the gay and lesbian people I have known fit into the category

>> of " substance abusers " . This is very sad. Most of the g/l I know are

>> very creative and talented.

>> In the small AA group I was in, two of the members were out of the

>> closet. But while " working the program " , these people were stiffled.

>> Their creativity and giftedness disappeared.

>> They say that one in ten is either gay or lesbian. That means that 10

>> of those first 100 assholes of 12-step cult discovery were G/L.

>> I wonder if Bill or Dr Bob ever ventured into the sexual unknown!

>> My point is (I think) that AA represses everyone, but I'd bet money

>> that it is extrememly dangerous for those with an alternative

>lifestyle.

>>

>>

>-------------------------------------

>

> Actually, in all urban areas, there are " gay AA " meetings aplenty.

> Gays can just as easily get sucked into believing that sobriety

>entails endless " moral inventories " and " conscious contact " with a

>sobriety god as straights. I've never heard of anyone being shamed

>about being gay or told to include it as a " defect " in their inventory;

>I expect it would be considered an " outside issue " . But latent

>homophobia is avoided by attending meetings specifically for

>gays/lesbians.

>

> BTW Vomit, did you know that the founder of the Oxford Group,

> Buchman, was a not-too-closeted gay man? Also a creepy control

>freak and religious fanatic, who was especially uptight about

>masturbation, considering it a grave " moral defect " . He was asked to

>take his " spiritual " group out of several college campuses after

>complaints about him asking for intimate details about the sex lives of

>young men who came to him for " spiritual counseling " . Later Bill W.

>became his protege.

>

>~Rita

>

>

>

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Share what you know. Learn what you don't.

[Guest guest]

Sadly,

The early AA's were not known for their enlightenment. The Third

Tradition passages in the 12 & 12 still refers to " Queers and Fallen

Women " - though as not to be excluded, admittedly. I find it ironic

that the word Queer has since been reclaimed by the Gay community and

many gay ppl use the word to describe themselves.

I think it's hidden in the more obscure AA books, but tells of a

member who was triply troublesome - he was black, a drug user, and wore

makeup. He disappeared after a few weeks, and it seems a tangible

relief to that " this strange alcoholic " didn't remain to ruffle

feathers.

Pete

" vomiticus vomitophile " wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=10008

> I think the main reason people abuse alcohol and drugs has to do with

> low self-esteem.

> Most of the gay and lesbian people I have known fit into the category

> of " substance abusers " . This is very sad. Most of the g/l I know are

> very creative and talented.

> In the small AA group I was in, two of the members were out of the

> closet. But while " working the program " , these people were stiffled.

> Their creativity and giftedness disappeared.

> They say that one in ten is either gay or lesbian. That means that 10

> of those first 100 assholes of 12-step cult discovery were G/L.

> I wonder if Bill or Dr Bob ever ventured into the sexual unknown!

> My point is (I think) that AA represses everyone, but I'd bet money

> that it is extrememly dangerous for those with an alternative

lifestyle.

>

>

>

> butterbean-@... wrote:

> original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=100

02

> > Hi all -

> > If one takes a look at the g/l/b/t (gay/lesbian/bisexual/transgende

r)

> > community, I think it's pretty obvious why this is a high risk group

> for

> > addiction(s).

> > 1)Not until VERY RECENTLY the ONLY place to socialize with others in

> the

> > g/l/b/t community, was the " gay bar " . Up until the time of the

> " Stonewall

> > Riots " in 1969, police were ALWAYS raiding and harassing gay bars.

> The

> > riots are now celebrated as " Gay Pride Day(s) " , being that the gay

> > subculture had ENOUGH of being harassed for going into a gay bar and

> being

> > potentially raided and arrested WITH many arrests being listed in

> public

> > NEWSPAPERS.

> > 2) MANY MANY MANY g/l/b/t people were taught they were 'sinners' or

> were

> > 'taunted' verbally or GAY BASHED, which still happens quite

frequently

> > TODAY. (example - the Oct. 1998 gay bashing of Shepard in

> Wyoming or

> > websites like http://www.godhatesfags.com .)

> > It is NO WONDER that the g/l/b/t community turns to booze and or

> drugs to

> > 'numb' out all of the HATRED they have encountered. I have a gay

male

> friend

> > who was DISOWNED by his family at age 16 for being gay.

> > 3) This one I think is really pathetic: Alot of Gay events are

> sponsored by

> > distilleries and/or breweries. If you pick up a Gay magazine or

> newspaper,

> > there is ALWAYS a huge ad in it or maybe several, targeting the Gay

> > community with glossy booze and beer ads.

> >

> > Suffice to say - if I thought I might be a " condemned to death

> sinner " or

> > " disowned " by family, friends, co-worker's, X-tian right wing

> fanantic's etc

> > etc I think picking up a bottle or some pills might be a great way

of

> > dealing with all of the bigotry, hatred and rhetoric spewed out all

> over the

> > place in regards to sexual orientation.

> >

> > Today is WORLD AIDS DAY. And HIV/AIDS aint just for gays anymore.

> Thanks

> > to 1980's right wing government cut backs, crucial scientific

> research into

> > developing HIV/AIDS vaccines and other treatments were placed WAY on

> the

> > back burner. Gee, THANKS Ronnie and !

> > Remembering my HIV + friends -

> > ~Trixxi

> >

>

[Guest guest]

I was once going to an audition for an ameteur dramatics compamy and

outsie the Church Hall I met someone I knew from XA. He said:

" Are you here for the Gay and Lesbian NA meeting? It's in that room

there. "

" No, I'm... "

" Oh you want the regular NA meeting? Oh that's in that room over there. "

" No, I dont want any NA meeting. I'm here for an amateur dramatics

audition. "

" Oh. That's probably in that room over there. they have all kind of

weird things going on in there. "

P.

[Guest guest]

Sheesh! Talk about a MAJOR contradiction of words!!!

~Trixxi

Re: Gays and addiction

> I was once going to an audition for an ameteur dramatics compamy and

> outsie the Church Hall I met someone I knew from XA. He said:

>

> " Are you here for the Gay and Lesbian NA meeting? It's in that room

> there. "

>

> " No, I'm... "

>

> " Oh you want the regular NA meeting? Oh that's in that room over there. "

>

> " No, I dont want any NA meeting. I'm here for an amateur dramatics

> audition. "

>

> " Oh. That's probably in that room over there. they have all kind of

> weird things going on in there. "

>

> P.

>

>

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[Guest guest]

At the group I attended there was a man who was on his death bed the first

couple of months I was there; the group would talk about him constantly,

putting him up on a pedestal, quoting him constantly. He was one of the

group's founders. After he died I was required to attend a graveside service

by my sponsor even though I didn't know him. My sponsor and I got in a heated

argument when I objected when he told me to go The only reason he gave, and

this was a reason I was to hear again and again from him and other hardcore

steppers, was " that's the way we do things around here. " It was not until

nearly a year later, when I finally left AA, that I heard that that man used

to take advantage of young men who were newcomers in a psychologically

vulnerable position and use them for sexual gratification. I remember there

were a few guys at that group who seemed pretty unusually neurotic who had

been around there for years, and I heard that they were some of this man's

victims. Of course I have nothing against gays per se, being bisexual myself;

but that sort of predatory behavior is inexcusable imo.

[Guest guest]

That is not 'gay' behavior. That is 'pedophile' behavior.

~Trixxi

Re: Gays and addiction

> At the group I attended there was a man who was on his death bed the first

> couple of months I was there; the group would talk about him constantly,

> putting him up on a pedestal, quoting him constantly. He was one of the

> group's founders. After he died I was required to attend a graveside

service

> by my sponsor even though I didn't know him. My sponsor and I got in a

heated

> argument when I objected when he told me to go The only reason he gave,

and

> this was a reason I was to hear again and again from him and other

hardcore

> steppers, was " that's the way we do things around here. " It was not until

> nearly a year later, when I finally left AA, that I heard that that man

used

> to take advantage of young men who were newcomers in a psychologically

> vulnerable position and use them for sexual gratification. I remember

there

> were a few guys at that group who seemed pretty unusually neurotic who had

> been around there for years, and I heard that they were some of this man's

> victims. Of course I have nothing against gays per se, being bisexual

myself;

> but that sort of predatory behavior is inexcusable imo.

>

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