Guest guest Posted January 3, 2000 Report Share Posted January 3, 2000 i can 2nd some of that. i experimented some with lsd in my college days and i had a very precise moment of clarity during one trip, where all the things which influenced my life emotionally at that time all seemed apparent and not that powerful after all. it was a good feeling, and it all seemed so obvious. but of course like trying to remember a dream, it faded from memory over a short time. but for a couple years afterwards i still felt like my brain was wired 'differently " than it had been before that time in ways which were positive. im not saying it took away any urge to drink, only made things in life seem that much more interesting. also im an artist, and while i was studying art i felt the acid experimenting had actually enhanced my perceptual abildities for a short while. im sure that sounds hopelessly clichéd from the 60's, but it my experience none the less. mond-@... wrote: original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=11026 > Pete Watts wrote: > > > thought that LSD could help ppl get the spiritual experience of > >God he thought necessary for recovery. I think this shows his > >incredible naivety, and also the extent of his critical ability to > >assess his own belladonna experience. I think there was something > >genuine about that experience, but it was probably much drug-enhanced. > > It is my experience and personal belief that LSD can indeed induce a spiritual experience and > is - in the proper settings, which are mostly non-available now due to the illegality of the drug > - it can aid alcoholics who want to stop drinking. I have actually seen this happen myself with > people. I have also had my own psychedelic experience and found that it puts the mind in a > counteralcohol-state. It causes a distinct aversion to alcohol in many people. > > Unfortunately, the trouble with this is, it doesn't last. About half a year, or sometimes less, > elapses...and then the person's mind " forgets " the intense revelations and the aversion to > liquor ceases. > > > demitria monde thraam > transmits at: > http://thraam.com > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 4, 2000 Report Share Posted January 4, 2000 when was AA formed? what year? --- monde@... wrote: > Pete Watts wrote: > > > thought that LSD could help ppl get the > spiritual experience of > >God he thought necessary for recovery. I think this > shows his > >incredible naivety, and also the extent of his > critical ability to > >assess his own belladonna experience. I think there > was something > >genuine about that experience, but it was probably > much drug-enhanced. > > It is my experience and personal belief that LSD can > indeed induce a spiritual experience and > is - in the proper settings, which are mostly > non-available now due to the illegality of the drug > - it can aid alcoholics who want to stop drinking. > I have actually seen this happen myself with > people. I have also had my own psychedelic > experience and found that it puts the mind in a > counteralcohol-state. It causes a distinct aversion > to alcohol in many people. > > Unfortunately, the trouble with this is, it doesn't > last. About half a year, or sometimes less, > elapses...and then the person's mind " forgets " the > intense revelations and the aversion to > liquor ceases. > > > demitria monde thraam > transmits at: > http://thraam.com > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Want to send money instantly to anyone, anywhere, > anytime? > You can today at X.com - and we'll give you $20 to > try it! Sign > up today at X.com. It's quick, free, & there's no > obligation! > http://click./1/332/1/_/4324/_/946954306 > > eGroups.com Home: > /group/12-step-free/ > - Simplifying group > communications > > > __________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 4, 2000 Report Share Posted January 4, 2000 At 09:19 AM 1/4/00 -0800, Kraemer wrote: >when was AA formed? what year? AA counts its own formation in the year 1935, the day that Dr. Bob had his last drink (or his first day of sobriety, or however it is Officially Countted). This was a few weeks after Bill and Dr. Bob met (at least as AA tells it - IIRC, I understand they had both been involved with the Oxford Group for a few years). AA's own literature has much of this history, obviously biased to make AA look good, but an excellent description of early AA is in Bufe's book " AA: Cult or Cure? " ----- http://listen.to/benbradley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 4, 2000 Report Share Posted January 4, 2000 hi demi I accept that what you say may well be true. for me however, it is the intense artificiality of the experience that concerns me - it's like fixing a TV set by kicking it. Many ppl have very bad LSD experiences that are disastrous - and also their is the risk of becoming habituated to seeking the LSD experience. Their is much interest now in a drug call ibogaine which is a mild hallucinogen that appears to be very effective in overcoming drug addiction - perhaps this produces the +ve LSD experiences to just the extent needed. The problem of " wearing off2 is probably best fought by using the new abstinence as productively as possible, finding new sources of happiness and joy. best, P. mond-@... wrote: original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=11026 > Pete Watts wrote: > > > thought that LSD could help ppl get the spiritual experience of > >God he thought necessary for recovery. I think this shows his > >incredible naivety, and also the extent of his critical ability to > >assess his own belladonna experience. I think there was something > >genuine about that experience, but it was probably much drug-enhanced. > > It is my experience and personal belief that LSD can indeed induce a spiritual experience and > is - in the proper settings, which are mostly non-available now due to the illegality of the drug > - it can aid alcoholics who want to stop drinking. I have actually seen this happen myself with > people. I have also had my own psychedelic experience and found that it puts the mind in a > counteralcohol-state. It causes a distinct aversion to alcohol in many people. > > Unfortunately, the trouble with this is, it doesn't last. About half a year, or sometimes less, > elapses...and then the person's mind " forgets " the intense revelations and the aversion to > liquor ceases. > > > demitria monde thraam > transmits at: > http://thraam.com > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 4, 2000 Report Share Posted January 4, 2000 They also said that there were 100 members when the Big Book was published. In actual fact there were only 80+ give or take one or two. They denied for years that any of the program came from the Oxford group. In actual fact the first six steps were taken from the oxford group. This lie was of course told for the betterment of AA. Not bad for a group that calles for rigorous honesty eh? Mike M At 07:46 PM 01/04/2000 -0500, you wrote: >At 09:19 AM 1/4/00 -0800, Kraemer wrote: >>when was AA formed? what year? > > AA counts its own formation in the year 1935, the day that Dr. Bob >had his last drink (or his first day of sobriety, or however it is Officially >Countted). This was a few weeks after Bill and Dr. Bob met (at least as >AA tells it - IIRC, I understand they had both been involved with the Oxford >Group for a few years). > AA's own literature has much of this history, obviously biased to make >AA look good, but an excellent description of early AA is in Bufe's >book " AA: Cult or Cure? " > >----- >http://listen.to/benbradley > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >Want to send money instantly to anyone, anywhere, anytime? >You can today at X.com - and we'll give you $20 to try it! Sign >up today at X.com. It's quick, free, & there's no obligation! >http://click./1/332/1/_/4324/_/947034198 > >eGroups.com Home: /group/12-step-free/ > - Simplifying group communications > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 4, 2000 Report Share Posted January 4, 2000 ben bradley wrote: original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=11062 > At 09:19 AM 1/4/00 -0800, Kraemer wrote: > >when was AA formed? what year? > > AA counts its own formation in the year 1935, the day that Dr. Bob > had his last drink (or his first day of sobriety, or however it is Officially > Countted). This was a few weeks after Bill and Dr. Bob met (at least as > AA tells it - IIRC, I understand they had both been involved with the Oxford > Group for a few years). > AA's own literature has much of this history, obviously biased to make > AA look good, but an excellent description of early AA is in Bufe's > book " AA: Cult or Cure? " Nah, the historians have got it all wrong, Ben. The genesis of AA was during World War I, when Adolf Hitler and Bill inadvertantly stumbled into each other in an artillery shell crater in no man's land. They stood face to face, Hitler with his trench knife and Bill brandishing the femur of a fallen comrade, but came to the realization that if they fought each other they'd make a lot of noise and neither would be able to have his way with the corpse of the Belgian schoolgirl they both had their eyes on. So they decided to take turns. Later, after sharing swigs of schnapps and Lucky Strikes, they spoke about their visions for life after the War to End All Wars. Hitler confided that he hoped to write a memoir called " Mein Kampf " that would change the course of history. That was when Bill got the idea for the Big Book. About six months after Bill's tome was published, Adolf invaded Poland. If only time travel were possible, one of us could go back and arrange for the two of them to be standing where a mortar shell was about to land. No, mustard gas would suit them better. > > ----- > http://listen.to/benbradley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 4, 2000 Report Share Posted January 4, 2000 An interesting aside on Ibogaine As I remeber - Ibogaine is derived from the plant Yage. I know Burroughs wrote about it and I believe even published something called the Yage Letters. Has anyone read this ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 4, 2000 Report Share Posted January 4, 2000 jim, You should fwd this to addictions-discussionegroups - I think the folks there would appreciate it! P. " jim hankins " wrote: original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=11081 > ben bradley wrote: > original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=110 62 > > At 09:19 AM 1/4/00 -0800, Kraemer wrote: > > >when was AA formed? what year? > > > > AA counts its own formation in the year 1935, the day that Dr. Bob > > had his last drink (or his first day of sobriety, or however it is > Officially > > Countted). This was a few weeks after Bill and Dr. Bob met (at > least as > > AA tells it - IIRC, I understand they had both been involved with the > Oxford > > Group for a few years). > > AA's own literature has much of this history, obviously biased to > make > > AA look good, but an excellent description of early AA is in > Bufe's > > book " AA: Cult or Cure? " > > > > Nah, the historians have got it all wrong, Ben. The genesis of AA was > during World War I, when Adolf Hitler and Bill inadvertantly > stumbled into each other in an artillery shell crater in no man's land. > They stood face to face, Hitler with his trench knife and Bill > brandishing the femur of a fallen comrade, but came to the realization > that if they fought each other they'd make a lot of noise and neither > would be able to have his way with the corpse of the Belgian schoolgirl > they both had their eyes on. So they decided to take turns. Later, > after sharing swigs of schnapps and Lucky Strikes, they spoke about > their visions for life after the War to End All Wars. Hitler confided > that he hoped to write a memoir called " Mein Kampf " that would change > the course of history. That was when Bill got the idea for the Big > Book. About six months after Bill's tome was published, Adolf invaded > Poland. If only time travel were possible, one of us could go back and > arrange for the two of them to be standing where a mortar shell was > about to land. No, mustard gas would suit them better. > > > > ----- > > http://listen.to/benbradley > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 5, 2000 Report Share Posted January 5, 2000 greetings all on list. longtime lurker here. as a boomer who experimented with acid in the early '70s in high school, for myself, i found it both positive and negative. glad i had the " experience " as we used to say back then. i also found it to be of some value as a " door of perception " type of thing - but short-lived. and of course i did know folks who had the disastrous badtrips pete spoke of. i am wondering though about your mention of becoming habituated, pete. how common is that? in my (admittedly small scale) experience and knowledge, i cant think of anyone i know who seriously felt that their use of lsd or similar hallucinogenics was especially difficult to discontinue once they decided to stop. any data on that? just curious. oh, and i want to say in advance, i have found your contributions to this list to be very helpful and informative for me. thanks 8-) best wishes annette " pete watts " wrote: original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=11073 > hi demi > > I accept that what you say may well be true. for me however, it is the > intense artificiality of the experience that concerns me - it's like > fixing a TV set by kicking it. Many ppl have very bad LSD experiences > that are disastrous - and also their is the risk of becoming habituated > to seeking the LSD experience. > > Their is much interest now in a drug call ibogaine which is a mild > hallucinogen that appears to be very effective in overcoming drug > addiction - perhaps this produces the +ve LSD experiences to just the > extent needed. The problem of " wearing off2 is probably best fought by > using the new abstinence as productively as possible, finding new > sources of happiness and joy. > > best, > P. > > > mond-@... wrote: > original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=110 26 > > Pete Watts wrote: > > > > > thought that LSD could help ppl get the spiritual experience > of > > >God he thought necessary for recovery. I think this shows his > > >incredible naivety, and also the extent of his critical ability to > > >assess his own belladonna experience. I think there was something > > >genuine about that experience, but it was probably much > drug-enhanced. > > > > It is my experience and personal belief that LSD can indeed induce a > spiritual experience and > > is - in the proper settings, which are mostly non-available now due > to the illegality of the drug > > - it can aid alcoholics who want to stop drinking. I have actually > seen this happen myself with > > people. I have also had my own psychedelic experience and found that > it puts the mind in a > > counteralcohol-state. It causes a distinct aversion to alcohol in > many people. > > > > Unfortunately, the trouble with this is, it doesn't last. About half > a year, or sometimes less, > > elapses...and then the person's mind " forgets " the intense > revelations and the aversion to > > liquor ceases. > > > > > > demitria monde thraam > > transmits at: > > http://thraam.com > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 5, 2000 Report Share Posted January 5, 2000 Mike May wrote: > They also said that there were 100 members when the Big Book was published. > In actual fact there were only 80+ give or take one or two. They denied foryears that any of the program came from the Oxford group. In actual fact the first six steps were taken from the oxford group. This lie was of course told for the betterment of AA. ===================== Actually, it's more evil than that. In A.A.'s book " Dr. Bob and the Good Old-Timers " , A.A. states that they hid their relation to the Oxford Group for two reasons; first, they were trying to get money out of Rokefeller and they thought being affiliated with the Oxford Group would hinder that. Second, they wanted to hide their connection to the founder of the Oxford Group since he was, openly, a sympathiser of Adolf Hitler. It also is interesting to note that they were having strategic differences with the Oxford Group which is the root of A.A.'s technique of indoctrination. To join the Oxford Group required a surrender before God, just as the Twelve Steps do. But A.A. realized that this requirement hurt A.A.'s ability to recruit because the Oxford Group required that the surrender occur at THE BEGINNING, on bended knees and before witnesses. The only difference between current A.A. dogma and O.G. dogma is that A.A. allows you to believe after you began, where O.G. required it before. And, where O.G. was upfront about the surrender, A.A. just lies about it. Later, Alligator !!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 5, 2000 Report Share Posted January 5, 2000 Well for a program that is considered non-religious, I found this rather interesting. These are the amounts of times the word god appears in the big book. God - 137 times, God's - 25 times, God-conscious - 1 time God-consciousness - 3 times, God-given - 1 time, God-knows-who - 1 time, God-sufficiency - 1 time, Godly - 1 time, Total of 169 times I think in the advertising world, this would be classed as subliminal. Mike M At 09:33 AM 01/05/2000 -0500, you wrote: >Mike May wrote: >> >They also said that there were 100 members when the Big Book was >published. >> In actual fact there were only 80+ give or take one or two. They denied foryears that any of the program came from the Oxford group. In actual fact >the first six steps were taken from the oxford group. This lie was of >course told for the betterment of AA. >===================== >Actually, it's more evil than that. In A.A.'s book " Dr. Bob and the Good >Old-Timers " , A.A. states that they hid their relation to the Oxford >Group for two reasons; first, they were trying to get money out of > Rokefeller and they thought being affiliated with the Oxford >Group would hinder that. Second, they wanted to hide their connection to >the founder of the Oxford Group since he was, openly, a sympathiser of >Adolf Hitler. It also is interesting to note that they were having >strategic differences with the Oxford Group which is the root of A.A.'s >technique of indoctrination. >To join the Oxford Group required a surrender before God, just as the >Twelve Steps do. But A.A. realized that this requirement hurt A.A.'s >ability to recruit because the Oxford Group required that the surrender >occur at THE BEGINNING, on bended knees and before witnesses. The only >difference between current A.A. dogma and O.G. dogma is that A.A. allows >you to believe after you began, where O.G. required it before. And, >where O.G. was upfront about the surrender, A.A. just lies about it. > >Later, Alligator !!! > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >Toys, Books, Software. Save $10 on any order of $25 or more at >SmarterKids.com. Hurry, offer expires 1/15/00. >http://click./1/646/1/_/4324/_/947082850 > >-- Easily schedule meetings and events using the group calendar! >-- /cal?listname=12-step-free & m=1 > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 5, 2000 Report Share Posted January 5, 2000 HI annette Tx for your comments. LSD is generally thought non-addictive. however, if one accepts one can be addicted simply to behaviors, such as gambling, it follows that a drug need not do very much in order for someone to become addicted, because one can be addicted to anything. If one is using LSD as a source of spiritual inspiration, then it would suggest one could become a habitual user; the 'addiction' concept is a difficult one because the only definition that works in practice is use despite adverse consequences; while one hasnt driven oneself whacko with LSD arguably it has no adverse cosequences so long as you dont think you can fly! If you were around early 70s you will of course know Leary and werent the only ones to find such inspiration in LSD; there was also Manson and his " Family " who would drop acid while listening to " Helter Skelter " , " Revolution 1 " and other Beatles White Album tracks. Manson became convinced the Beatles were the locusts named in Revelation, who were communicating to him via their music; on his direction, his " Family " , mostly young women with no previous criminal records, committed the most horrific murders the world has seen, including that of 8 & 1/2 month pregnant Sharon Tate, whose pleadings to be allowed to live to give birth to her baby were brutally rejected. Apparently he thought the murders would be blamed on black ppl, who when retaliated against would rise up in a Revolution called Helter Skelter. Manson still has his followers. hey man, whatever happened to 'all you need is love'?... P. " annette gagne " wrote: original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=11090 > greetings all on list. longtime lurker here. > as a boomer who experimented with acid in the early '70s in high > school, for myself, i found it both positive and negative. glad i had > the " experience " as we used to say back then. i also found it to be of > some value as a " door of perception " type of thing - but short-lived. > and of course i did know folks who had the disastrous badtrips pete > spoke of. i am wondering though about your mention of becoming > habituated, pete. how common is that? in my (admittedly small scale) > experience and knowledge, i cant think of anyone i know who seriously > felt that their use of lsd or similar hallucinogenics was especially > difficult to discontinue once they decided to stop. any data on that? > just curious. > oh, and i want to say in advance, i have found your contributions to > this list to be very helpful and informative for me. thanks 8-) > best wishes > annette > > > > " pete watts " wrote: > original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=110 73 > > hi demi > > > > I accept that what you say may well be true. for me however, it is > the > > intense artificiality of the experience that concerns me - it's like > > fixing a TV set by kicking it. Many ppl have very bad LSD experiences > > that are disastrous - and also their is the risk of becoming > habituated > > to seeking the LSD experience. > > > > Their is much interest now in a drug call ibogaine which is a mild > > hallucinogen that appears to be very effective in overcoming drug > > addiction - perhaps this produces the +ve LSD experiences to just the > > extent needed. The problem of " wearing off2 is probably best fought by > > using the new abstinence as productively as possible, finding new > > sources of happiness and joy. > > > > best, > > P. > > > > > > mond-@... wrote: > > original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=1 10 > 26 > > > Pete Watts wrote: > > > > > > > thought that LSD could help ppl get the spiritual experience > > of > > > >God he thought necessary for recovery. I think this shows his > > > >incredible naivety, and also the extent of his critical ability to > > > >assess his own belladonna experience. I think there was something > > > >genuine about that experience, but it was probably much > > drug-enhanced. > > > > > > It is my experience and personal belief that LSD can indeed induce a > > spiritual experience and > > > is - in the proper settings, which are mostly non-available now due > > to the illegality of the drug > > > - it can aid alcoholics who want to stop drinking. I have actually > > seen this happen myself with > > > people. I have also had my own psychedelic experience and found > that > > it puts the mind in a > > > counteralcohol-state. It causes a distinct aversion to alcohol in > > many people. > > > > > > Unfortunately, the trouble with this is, it doesn't last. About half > > a year, or sometimes less, > > > elapses...and then the person's mind " forgets " the intense > > revelations and the aversion to > > > liquor ceases. > > > > > > > > > demitria monde thraam > > > transmits at: > > > http://thraam.com > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 5, 2000 Report Share Posted January 5, 2000 well yes, pete, i remember all that (through it is a vague, hazy memory <g>). but surely you are just teasing me a bit because of my agegroup. you don't really attribute such horrendous behavior as that of the manson " family " solely to their drug use/abuse or indeed, to any one cause? best wishes, annette " pete watts " wrote: original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=11117 > HI annette ....snipped for space... > If you were around early 70s you will of course know Leary and > werent the only ones to find such inspiration in LSD; there was also > Manson and his " Family " who would drop acid while listening to > " Helter Skelter " , " Revolution 1 " and other Beatles White Album tracks. > Manson became convinced the Beatles were the locusts named in > Revelation, who were communicating to him via their music; on his > direction, his " Family " , mostly young women with no previous criminal > records, committed the most horrific murders the world has seen, > including that of 8 & 1/2 month pregnant Sharon Tate, whose pleadings to > be allowed to live to give birth to her baby were brutally rejected. > Apparently he thought the murders would be blamed on black ppl, who > when retaliated against would rise up in a Revolution called Helter > Skelter. Manson still has his followers. > > hey man, whatever happened to 'all you need is love'?... > > P. > > > " annette gagne " wrote: > original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=11090 > > greetings all on list. longtime lurker here. > > as a boomer who experimented with acid in the early '70s in high > > school, for myself, i found it both positive and negative. glad i > had > > the " experience " as we used to say back then. i also found it to be > of > > some value as a " door of perception " type of thing - but short-lived. > > and of course i did know folks who had the disastrous badtrips pete > > spoke of. i am wondering though about your mention of becoming > > habituated, pete. how common is that? in my (admittedly small scale) > > experience and knowledge, i cant think of anyone i know who seriously > > felt that their use of lsd or similar hallucinogenics was especially > > difficult to discontinue once they decided to stop. any data on that? > > just curious. further snippage to conserve bandwidth] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 6, 2000 Report Share Posted January 6, 2000 i always wanted to hear somebody say: " my Higher Power, who I choose to call Harold " --- Mike May wrote: > Well for a program that is considered non-religious, > I found this rather interesting. These are the > amounts of times the word > god appears in the big book. > God - 137 times, God's - 25 times, God-conscious - 1 > time > God-consciousness - 3 times, God-given - 1 time, > God-knows-who - 1 time, God-sufficiency - 1 time, > Godly - 1 time, Total of 169 times > I think in the advertising world, this would be > classed as subliminal. > Mike M > > At 09:33 AM 01/05/2000 -0500, you wrote: > >Mike May wrote: > >> > >They also said that there were 100 members when the > Big Book was > >published. > >> In actual fact there were only 80+ give or take > one or two. They denied > foryears that any of the program came from the > Oxford group. In actual fact > >the first six steps were taken from the oxford > group. This lie was of > >course told for the betterment of AA. > >===================== > >Actually, it's more evil than that. In A.A.'s book > " Dr. Bob and the Good > >Old-Timers " , A.A. states that they hid their > relation to the Oxford > >Group for two reasons; first, they were trying to > get money out of > > Rokefeller and they thought being affiliated > with the Oxford > >Group would hinder that. Second, they wanted to > hide their connection to > >the founder of the Oxford Group since he was, > openly, a sympathiser of > >Adolf Hitler. It also is interesting to note that > they were having > >strategic differences with the Oxford Group which > is the root of A.A.'s > >technique of indoctrination. > >To join the Oxford Group required a surrender > before God, just as the > >Twelve Steps do. But A.A. realized that this > requirement hurt A.A.'s > >ability to recruit because the Oxford Group > required that the surrender > >occur at THE BEGINNING, on bended knees and before > witnesses. The only > >difference between current A.A. dogma and O.G. > dogma is that A.A. allows > >you to believe after you began, where O.G. required > it before. And, > >where O.G. was upfront about the surrender, A.A. > just lies about it. > > > >Later, Alligator !!! > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >Toys, Books, Software. Save $10 on any order of $25 > or more at > >SmarterKids.com. Hurry, offer expires 1/15/00. > >http://click./1/646/1/_/4324/_/947082850 > > > >-- Easily schedule meetings and events using the > group calendar! > >-- > /cal?listname=12-step-free & m=1 > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Toys, Books, Software. Save $10 on any order of $25 > or more at > SmarterKids.com. Hurry, offer expires 1/15/00. > http://click./1/646/1/_/4324/_/947120190 > > -- Talk to your group with your own voice! > -- > /VoiceChatPage?listName=12-step-free & m=1 > > > __________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 6, 2000 Report Share Posted January 6, 2000 At my tx center our personal counselors were vehement that we were to consider them our higher power. So I would have had to say, " My higher power, and Ray insists he is my higher power... " and then, after caseloads were reassigned, " ...and Gwen insists she is my higher power... " Doesn't jibe very well with the program, does it? michael kraemer wrote: original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=11145 > i always wanted to hear somebody say: " my Higher > Power, who I choose to call Harold " > > --- Mike May wrote: > > Well for a program that is considered non-religious, > > I found this rather interesting. These are the > > amounts of times the word > > god appears in the big book. > > God - 137 times, God's - 25 times, God-conscious - 1 > > time > > God-consciousness - 3 times, God-given - 1 time, > > God-knows-who - 1 time, God-sufficiency - 1 time, > > Godly - 1 time, Total of 169 times > > I think in the advertising world, this would be > > classed as subliminal. > > Mike M > > > > At 09:33 AM 01/05/2000 -0500, you wrote: > > >Mike May wrote: > > >> > > >They also said that there were 100 members when the > > Big Book was > > >published. > > >> In actual fact there were only 80+ give or take > > one or two. They denied > > foryears that any of the program came from the > > Oxford group. In actual fact > > >the first six steps were taken from the oxford > > group. This lie was of > > >course told for the betterment of AA. > > >===================== > > >Actually, it's more evil than that. In A.A.'s book > > " Dr. Bob and the Good > > >Old-Timers " , A.A. states that they hid their > > relation to the Oxford > > >Group for two reasons; first, they were trying to > > get money out of > > > Rokefeller and they thought being affiliated > > with the Oxford > > >Group would hinder that. Second, they wanted to > > hide their connection to > > >the founder of the Oxford Group since he was, > > openly, a sympathiser of > > >Adolf Hitler. It also is interesting to note that > > they were having > > >strategic differences with the Oxford Group which > > is the root of A.A.'s > > >technique of indoctrination. > > >To join the Oxford Group required a surrender > > before God, just as the > > >Twelve Steps do. But A.A. realized that this > > requirement hurt A.A.'s > > >ability to recruit because the Oxford Group > > required that the surrender > > >occur at THE BEGINNING, on bended knees and before > > witnesses. The only > > >difference between current A.A. dogma and O.G. > > dogma is that A.A. allows > > >you to believe after you began, where O.G. required > > it before. And, > > >where O.G. was upfront about the surrender, A.A. > > just lies about it. > > > > > >Later, Alligator !!! > > > > > > >-------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- > > >Toys, Books, Software. Save $10 on any order of $25 > > or more at > > >SmarterKids.com. Hurry, offer expires 1/15/00. > > >http://click./1/646/1/_/4324/_/947082850 > > > > > >-- Easily schedule meetings and events using the > > group calendar! > > >-- > > /cal?listname=12-step-free & m=1 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 6, 2000 Report Share Posted January 6, 2000 Now that you mention this, I do remember it. He said that it worked like a charm. Yet he was a truly devoted drug addict, and went back to his drug of choice (don't remember what it was) soon after. dickon-@... wrote: original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=11091 > An interesting aside on Ibogaine > > As I remeber - Ibogaine is derived from the plant Yage. > > I know Burroughs wrote about it and I believe even published > something called the Yage Letters. Has anyone read this ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 6, 2000 Report Share Posted January 6, 2000 Just noting the irony Annette P. adgagn-@... wrote: original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=11123 > well yes, pete, > i remember all that (through it is a vague, hazy memory <g>). > but surely you are just teasing me a bit because of my agegroup. > you don't really attribute such horrendous behavior as that of the manson > " family " solely to their drug use/abuse or indeed, to any one cause? > best wishes, > annette > > " pete watts " wrote: > original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=111 17 > > HI annette > > ...snipped for space... > > > If you were around early 70s you will of course know Leary and > > werent the only ones to find such inspiration in LSD; there was also > > Manson and his " Family " who would drop acid while listening to > > " Helter Skelter " , " Revolution 1 " and other Beatles White Album tracks. > > Manson became convinced the Beatles were the locusts named in > > Revelation, who were communicating to him via their music; on his > > direction, his " Family " , mostly young women with no previous criminal > > records, committed the most horrific murders the world has seen, > > including that of 8 & 1/2 month pregnant Sharon Tate, whose pleadings to > > be allowed to live to give birth to her baby were brutally rejected. > > Apparently he thought the murders would be blamed on black ppl, who > > when retaliated against would rise up in a Revolution called Helter > > Skelter. Manson still has his followers. > > > > hey man, whatever happened to 'all you need is love'?... > > > > P. > > > > > > " annette gagne " wrote: > > original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=1 1090 > > > greetings all on list. longtime lurker here. > > > as a boomer who experimented with acid in the early '70s in high > > > school, for myself, i found it both positive and negative. glad i > > had > > > the " experience " as we used to say back then. i also found it to be > > of > > > some value as a " door of perception " type of thing - but short-lived. > > > and of course i did know folks who had the disastrous badtrips pete > > > spoke of. i am wondering though about your mention of becoming > > > habituated, pete. how common is that? in my (admittedly small scale) > > > experience and knowledge, i cant think of anyone i know who seriously > > > felt that their use of lsd or similar hallucinogenics was especially > > > difficult to discontinue once they decided to stop. any data on that? > > > just curious. > > further snippage to conserve bandwidth] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 6, 2000 Report Share Posted January 6, 2000 At 01:19 PM 1/6/00 -0800, Kayleigh S wrote: >At my tx center our personal counselors were vehement that we were to >consider them our higher power. Clearly anyone outside a treatment center and in most AA meetings would say that's bullshit. One of the things I heard discouraged in AA was to choose any living person for your higher power. On the other hand, you were supposed to " turn your will and life over the care of god as you understood him, and take all the suggestions your sponsor gives you. " Thus despite the rhetoric, there was little distinction between one's sponsor and one's higher power. >So I would have had to say, " My higher >power, and Ray insists he is my higher power... " and then, after >caseloads were reassigned, " ...and Gwen insists she is my higher >power... " How about instead of the usual " my higher power, whom I call god " , say " my higher power, whom I call shit-for-brains " ? >Doesn't jibe very well with the program, does it? Apparently it jibes with the counselors' program... ----- http://listen.to/benbradley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 6, 2000 Report Share Posted January 6, 2000 Dear Kayleigh, Bill Burroughs was into opiates for your information, and he did manage to get off them in the end - with the aid of a substance called Apomorphine - which, despite the name, in neither an opiate agonist or antagonist, but an emetic. It was I believe used with a view to a crude aversion therapy, but seemed, if Burroughs is to be believed to have some ability to cure addiction. I spoke some years back to a Dr Glatt, a supposed expert in the field of addiciton, who knew the Dr Dent who treated Burroughs. He believed it was more to do with the doctor than the treatment. Does anyone know anything about this? Regards Dickon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 8, 2000 Report Share Posted January 8, 2000 makes no sense at all --- Kayleigh S wrote: > > At my tx center our personal counselors were > vehement that we were to > consider them our higher power. So I would have had > to say, " My higher > power, and Ray insists he is my higher power... " and > then, after > caseloads were reassigned, " ...and Gwen insists she > is my higher > power... " Doesn't jibe very well with the program, > does it? > > michael kraemer wrote: > original > article:/group/12-step-free/?start=11145 > > i always wanted to hear somebody say: " my Higher > > Power, who I choose to call Harold " > > > > --- Mike May wrote: > > > Well for a program that is considered > non-religious, > > > I found this rather interesting. These are the > > > amounts of times the word > > > god appears in the big book. > > > God - 137 times, God's - 25 times, God-conscious > - 1 > > > time > > > God-consciousness - 3 times, God-given - 1 time, > > > God-knows-who - 1 time, God-sufficiency - 1 > time, > > > Godly - 1 time, Total of 169 times > > > I think in the advertising world, this would be > > > classed as subliminal. > > > Mike M > > > > > > At 09:33 AM 01/05/2000 -0500, you wrote: > > > >Mike May wrote: > > > >> > > > >They also said that there were 100 members when > the > > > Big Book was > > > >published. > > > >> In actual fact there were only 80+ give or > take > > > one or two. They denied > > > foryears that any of the program came from the > > > Oxford group. In actual fact > > > >the first six steps were taken from the oxford > > > group. This lie was of > > > >course told for the betterment of AA. > > > >===================== > > > >Actually, it's more evil than that. In A.A.'s > book > > > " Dr. Bob and the Good > > > >Old-Timers " , A.A. states that they hid their > > > relation to the Oxford > > > >Group for two reasons; first, they were trying > to > > > get money out of > > > > Rokefeller and they thought being > affiliated > > > with the Oxford > > > >Group would hinder that. Second, they wanted to > > > hide their connection to > > > >the founder of the Oxford Group since he was, > > > openly, a sympathiser of > > > >Adolf Hitler. It also is interesting to note > that > > > they were having > > > >strategic differences with the Oxford Group > which > > > is the root of A.A.'s > > > >technique of indoctrination. > > > >To join the Oxford Group required a surrender > > > before God, just as the > > > >Twelve Steps do. But A.A. realized that this > > > requirement hurt A.A.'s > > > >ability to recruit because the Oxford Group > > > required that the surrender > > > >occur at THE BEGINNING, on bended knees and > before > > > witnesses. The only > > > >difference between current A.A. dogma and O.G. > > > dogma is that A.A. allows > > > >you to believe after you began, where O.G. > required > > > it before. And, > > > >where O.G. was upfront about the surrender, > A.A. > > > just lies about it. > > > > > > > >Later, Alligator !!! > > > > > > > > > > >-------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---- > > > >Toys, Books, Software. Save $10 on any order of > $25 > > > or more at > > > >SmarterKids.com. Hurry, offer expires 1/15/00. > > > > >http://click./1/646/1/_/4324/_/947082850 > > > > > > > >-- Easily schedule meetings and events using > the > > > group calendar! > > > >-- > > > > /cal?listname=12-step-free & m=1 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Want to send money instantly to anyone, anywhere, > anytime? > You can today at X.com - and we'll give you $20 to > try it! Sign > up today at X.com. It's quick, free, & there's no > obligation! > http://click./1/332/1/_/4324/_/947193576 > > -- Create a poll/survey for your group! > -- > /vote?listname=12-step-free & m=1 > > __________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 12, 2000 Report Share Posted January 12, 2000 I've read the essay in which Burroughs describes apomorphine treatment, and I've also read that he went back on opiates afterwards. Don't recall where I read this, so I can't really say the source is reliable. Did you see Burroughs in Drugstore Cowboy? He played the priest, and I don't believe there was much acting in that role. dickon-@... wrote: original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=11555 > Dear Kayleigh, > > Bill Burroughs was into opiates for your information, and he did manage to > get off them in the end - with the aid of a substance called Apomorphine - > which, despite the name, in neither an opiate agonist or antagonist, but an > emetic. It was I believe used with a view to a crude aversion therapy, but > seemed, if Burroughs is to be believed to have some ability to cure addiction. > > I spoke some years back to a Dr Glatt, a supposed expert in the field of > addiciton, who knew the Dr Dent who treated Burroughs. He believed it was > more to do with the doctor than the treatment. > > Does anyone know anything about this? > > Regards > > Dickon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 12, 2000 Report Share Posted January 12, 2000 " kayleigh s " wrote: > Did you see Burroughs in Drugstore Cowboy? He played the priest, and I > don't believe there was much acting in that role. > Was he a priest in that movie? I thought he was just an old junky. That's one of my favorite flicks of all time. Especially like the part where they set up the narcs to look like peeping toms! And hiding the dead girl in the motel ceiling just when the cop conventioneers arrive! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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