Re: what are you free from??

[Guest guest]

>12 steps free sounds like a good thing, but what are you free from? all

,

Nobody is free from AA. It is interwoven into the fabric of our society by

infiltrating the courts and medical institutions.

The only thing free from AA in my life at this point is my current recovery

plan.

-Pat

______________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Right now maybe, but you may find yourself in need of psychiatric help one

day (I hope not.) Try telling them your story and then see if they don't

try cramming AA down your throat. Furthermore, try and refuse it and then

see what happens.

>

>Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

>To: 12-step-freeegroups

>Subject: Re: what are you free from??

>Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 10:57:55 -0800 (PST)

>

>well I'm free from

>AA

>--- son

>wrote:

> >

> >

> >

> > >12 steps free sounds like a good thing, but what

> > are you free from? all

> >

> > ,

> >

> > Nobody is free from AA. It is interwoven into the

> > fabric of our society by

> > infiltrating the courts and medical institutions.

> >

> > The only thing free from AA in my life at this point

> > is my current recovery

> > plan.

> >

> > -Pat

> >

>______________________________________________________

> >

> >

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

> > Toys, Books, Software. Save $10 on any order of $25

> > or more at

> > SmarterKids.com. Hurry, offer expires 1/15/00.

> > http://click./1/646/1/_/4324/_/947263351/

> >

> > -- Check out your group's private Chat room

> > --

> >

>/ChatPage?listName=12-step-free & m=1

> >

> >

>

>__________________________________________________

>

[Guest guest]

If you don't like it, why do you keep coming here?

Bored with your life?

" gary perkins " wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=11244

> 12 steps free sounds like a good thing, but what are you free from?

all

> you do is whine about the 12 steps. i dont know if i dislike 12

> steppers more, or the new and improved anti-12 steppers...you both

> suck. i dont even think you realize how boring your philosophy

> sounds.... as an ex 12 stepper i wanted something new, something

> better, but i was wrong about your group...your not free..your stuck

on

> hating the 12 steps... unkless of course you have decided to become

the

> new recovery police, protecting all of us from the evils of the 12

> steps...my advice..get a life...

>

[Guest guest]

Look, I don't want to get argumentative. If you truly believe your situaion

to be the norm, then there is nothing I can say or do to change your mind.

That doesn't mean that AA has not infiltrated the legal system and our

mental health institutions. That was my only point.

>

>Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

>To: 12-step-freeegroups

>Subject: Re: what are you free from??

>Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 13:58:53 -0800 (PST)

>

>Have talked to a therapist, and told him my story..

>after he questioned me a while, he was more interested

>in finding out how I was able to do it..escape AA and

>overdrinking..i told him upfront that alcohol wasn't

>why i was there (other reasons)and he agreed, went on

>to other subjects then...no big deal actually..I will

>never go back to AA and no one can make me.

>

>--- son

>wrote:

> >

> > Right now maybe, but you may find yourself in need

> > of psychiatric help one

> > day (I hope not.) Try telling them your story and

> > then see if they don't

> > try cramming AA down your throat. Furthermore, try

> > and refuse it and then

> > see what happens.

> >

> >

> > >

> > >Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

> > >To: 12-step-freeegroups

> > >Subject: Re: what are you free

> > from??

> > >Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 10:57:55 -0800 (PST)

> > >

> > >well I'm free from

> > >AA

> > >--- son

> > >wrote:

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > >12 steps free sounds like a good thing, but

> > what

> > > > are you free from? all

> > > >

> > > > ,

> > > >

> > > > Nobody is free from AA. It is interwoven into

> > the

> > > > fabric of our society by

> > > > infiltrating the courts and medical

> > institutions.

> > > >

> > > > The only thing free from AA in my life at this

> > point

> > > > is my current recovery

> > > > plan.

> > > >

> > > > -Pat

> > > >

> >

> >______________________________________________________

> > > >

> > > >

> >

> >------------------------------------------------------------------------

> > > > Toys, Books, Software. Save $10 on any order of

> > $25

> > > > or more at

> > > > SmarterKids.com. Hurry, offer expires 1/15/00.

> > > >

> > http://click./1/646/1/_/4324/_/947263351/

> > > >

> > > > -- Check out your group's private Chat room

> > > > --

> > > >

> >

> >/ChatPage?listName=12-step-free & m=1

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > >__________________________________________________

> > >

[Guest guest]

well I'm free from

AA

--- son

wrote:

>

>

>

> >12 steps free sounds like a good thing, but what

> are you free from? all

>

> ,

>

> Nobody is free from AA. It is interwoven into the

> fabric of our society by

> infiltrating the courts and medical institutions.

>

> The only thing free from AA in my life at this point

> is my current recovery

> plan.

>

> -Pat

>

______________________________________________________

>

>

------------------------------------------------------------------------

> Toys, Books, Software. Save $10 on any order of $25

> or more at

> SmarterKids.com. Hurry, offer expires 1/15/00.

> http://click./1/646/1/_/4324/_/947263351/

>

> -- Check out your group's private Chat room

> --

>

/ChatPage?listName=12-step-free & m=1

>

>

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

--- Vomiticus wrote:

>

> If you don't like it, why do you keep coming here?

> Bored with your life?

>

>

> " gary perkins " wrote:

> original

>

article:/group/12-step-free/?start=11244

> > 12 steps free sounds like a good thing, but what

> are you free from?

> all

> > you do is whine about the 12 steps. i dont know if

> i dislike 12

> > steppers more, or the new and improved anti-12

> steppers...you both

> > suck. i dont even think you realize how boring

> your philosophy

> > sounds.... as an ex 12 stepper i wanted something

> new, something

> > better, but i was wrong about your group...your

> not free..your stuck

> on

> > hating the 12 steps... unkless of course you have

> decided to become

> the

> > new recovery police, protecting all of us from the

> evils of the 12

> > steps...my advice..get a life...

> >

>

>

>

------------------------------------------------------------------------

> Toys, Books, Software. Save $10 on any order of $25

> or more at

> SmarterKids.com. Hurry, offer expires 1/15/00.

> http://click./1/646/1/_/4324/_/947263347/

>

> eGroups.com Home:

> /group/12-step-free/

> - Simplifying group

> communications

>

>

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Have talked to a therapist, and told him my story..

after he questioned me a while, he was more interested

in finding out how I was able to do it..escape AA and

overdrinking..i told him upfront that alcohol wasn't

why i was there (other reasons)and he agreed, went on

to other subjects then...no big deal actually..I will

never go back to AA and no one can make me.

--- son

wrote:

>

> Right now maybe, but you may find yourself in need

> of psychiatric help one

> day (I hope not.) Try telling them your story and

> then see if they don't

> try cramming AA down your throat. Furthermore, try

> and refuse it and then

> see what happens.

>

>

> >

> >Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

> >To: 12-step-freeegroups

> >Subject: Re: what are you free

> from??

> >Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 10:57:55 -0800 (PST)

> >

> >well I'm free from

> >AA

> >--- son

> >wrote:

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > >12 steps free sounds like a good thing, but

> what

> > > are you free from? all

> > >

> > > ,

> > >

> > > Nobody is free from AA. It is interwoven into

> the

> > > fabric of our society by

> > > infiltrating the courts and medical

> institutions.

> > >

> > > The only thing free from AA in my life at this

> point

> > > is my current recovery

> > > plan.

> > >

> > > -Pat

> > >

>

>______________________________________________________

> > >

> > >

>

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

> > > Toys, Books, Software. Save $10 on any order of

> $25

> > > or more at

> > > SmarterKids.com. Hurry, offer expires 1/15/00.

> > >

> http://click./1/646/1/_/4324/_/947263351/

> > >

> > > -- Check out your group's private Chat room

> > > --

> > >

>

>/ChatPage?listName=12-step-free & m=1

> > >

> > >

> >

> >__________________________________________________

> >

[Guest guest]

my shrink was a stepper and advised me to go to AA. although she wasn't

heavy handed about it and was a good listener, she did demonstrate her

AA programing herself. when i told her i had no intention of going back

to AA, se said " But your an alcoholic... " implying once and alcoholic,

always an alcoholic. i told her do i need a program to be happy? do i

need a program to not be suicidal? to love my family? to show self

respect? she had no answer to that question.

on a different occasion we talked about Bill W. i said " he wasnt first

person in all of history to get sober " my point being the ability to

stop drinking is inherent in human ability, and if you were to look

thru history you probably could find people who stopped drinking, if

they were documented. and even if they werent documented, its good bet

human nature hasnt changed too much in the history of alcohol.

She (apparently forgetting the " washingtonians " of the 1800's) shook

her head and said no, " he was first "

imagine that, a trained psychologist with a degree from somewhere

claiming that Bill W. was first person in human history to have the

ability to stop drinking! god the man must be some highly evolved form

of super human! lets look him up in medical journals, women let him

father your children so we can spread his seed.

i said " he wasn't first, only first to write a book about himself. "

[Guest guest]

didn't take it to be argumentative..just replying

factually.yes I believe my situation is pretty normal,

most people could do what I do in that area..don't

believe i possess any special qualities in the alcohol

area..YES AA is everywhere, i work with a " recovering

alcoholic " .. doesn't present any problem for me..he

has told me some of his story, and I have told him my

AA expriences. still get along very well..

I don't know , I guess I was forced to deal

with these situations on a personal level developed

strategies as i went, AA never posed a problem for me

after I left..less of a problem as time goes

by...thanks for replying

--- son

wrote:

>

> Look, I don't want to get argumentative. If you

> truly believe your situaion

> to be the norm, then there is nothing I can say or

> do to change your mind.

> That doesn't mean that AA has not infiltrated the

> legal system and our

> mental health institutions. That was my only point.

>

>

> >

> >Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

> >To: 12-step-freeegroups

> >Subject: Re: what are you free

> from??

> >Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 13:58:53 -0800 (PST)

> >

> >Have talked to a therapist, and told him my story..

> >after he questioned me a while, he was more

> interested

> >in finding out how I was able to do it..escape AA

> and

> >overdrinking..i told him upfront that alcohol

> wasn't

> >why i was there (other reasons)and he agreed, went

> on

> >to other subjects then...no big deal actually..I

> will

> >never go back to AA and no one can make me.

> >

> >--- son

> >wrote:

> > >

> > > Right now maybe, but you may find yourself in

> need

> > > of psychiatric help one

> > > day (I hope not.) Try telling them your story

> and

> > > then see if they don't

> > > try cramming AA down your throat. Furthermore,

> try

> > > and refuse it and then

> > > see what happens.

> > >

> > >

> > > >

> > > >Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

> > > >To: 12-step-freeegroups

> > > >Subject: Re: what are you free

> > > from??

> > > >Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 10:57:55 -0800 (PST)

> > > >

> > > >well I'm free from

> > > >AA

> > > >--- son

>

> > > >wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > >12 steps free sounds like a good thing, but

> > > what

> > > > > are you free from? all

> > > > >

> > > > > ,

> > > > >

> > > > > Nobody is free from AA. It is interwoven

> into

> > > the

> > > > > fabric of our society by

> > > > > infiltrating the courts and medical

> > > institutions.

> > > > >

> > > > > The only thing free from AA in my life at

> this

> > > point

> > > > > is my current recovery

> > > > > plan.

> > > > >

> > > > > -Pat

> > > > >

> > >

> >

>

>______________________________________________________

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > >

> >

>

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

> > > > > Toys, Books, Software. Save $10 on any order

> of

> > > $25

> > > > > or more at

> > > > > SmarterKids.com. Hurry, offer expires

> 1/15/00.

> > > > >

> > >

> http://click./1/646/1/_/4324/_/947263351/

> > > > >

> > > > > -- Check out your group's private Chat room

> > > > > --

> > > > >

> > >

> >

>

>/ChatPage?listName=12-step-free & m=1

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >__________________________________________________

> > > >

[Guest guest]

Pat and Mike, you're both right. The step philosophy is pervasive and

powerful, but thankfully there are some shrinks who are starting to see

the light. I've been going to a psychologist and psychiatrist. They

both advise me to keep going to meetings, but just for the peer support

part of it. They don't set much stock by the " program, " just the

fellowship. I told the MD some of the difficulty I was having with the

pseudoscientific aspects of the program and about the negative reaction

I got from fellow groupers when I pointed out that AA's own literature

has disowned Dr. Silkworth's allergy theory. I think he was a bit

surprised to learn that the Steppers had acted like such a bunch of

assholes, but he certainly did not try to tell me it was all in my

head. He told me that I didn't need that kind of " negative feedback. "

The other guy is pretty interesting. I think he's from Nigeria but

speaks pretty good English. He's taught about addiction in college and

worked in rehab settings. He once got drummed out of a job because he

dared to mention the Rand study in one of his lectures. So he knows how

the Step Cult works but just kind of laughs it off. He told me doctors

and shrinks are becoming a lot less likely these days to automatically

send someone to AA or NA. He even seems to believe that one of these

days they'll have a credible treatment protocol that will allow a

return to controlled drinking. What's really hilarious is he calls Bill

W. " Big Bill. " I told him I felt like a heretic in AA and he said,

" Well, every movement has its heretics and fundamentalists. The

Catholic Church had Luther and the Communists had Trotsky. "

Well, I've been excommunicated but I haven't woken up with a

mountain-climbing pickax in my head yet.

But is also right -- there's far too many people being

shanghaied into Stepdom. Matter of fact, I'd say the vast majority of

those who try to get help still get funneled into a 12-Step stalag of

some kind. AA is still regarded as supremely respectable, and probably

will be for the foreseeable future. But it's like the decline and fall

of the Roman Empire. Corruption is rotting AA from within and the

barbarians (that's US!) are beginning to get bolder and stronger by the

day. I'm looking forward to burning and pillaging, chopping off heads

and sticking them on spikes! And all that Italian food!

-- Jim the Hun

[Guest guest]

I told my shrink how I felt and how ridiculous I thought the whole concept

that AA taught was. He congratulated me on getting better.

Mike M

At 02:39 PM 01/07/2000 -0800, you wrote:

>my shrink was a stepper and advised me to go to AA. although she wasn't

>heavy handed about it and was a good listener, she did demonstrate her

>AA programing herself. when i told her i had no intention of going back

>to AA, se said " But your an alcoholic... " implying once and alcoholic,

>always an alcoholic. i told her do i need a program to be happy? do i

>need a program to not be suicidal? to love my family? to show self

>respect? she had no answer to that question.

[Guest guest]

" dave " wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=11303

>

> imagine that, a trained psychologist with a degree from somewhere

> claiming that Bill W. was first person in human history to have the

> ability to stop drinking! god the man must be some highly evolved form

> of super human! lets look him up in medical journals, women let him

> father your children so we can spread his seed.

>

------------------------------

EEEK!! Stop, Dave, you're gonna give me nightmares!!

~Rita

[Guest guest]

Was it mentioned in AA liturature that Bill W. just read Carl Jung, or did

he actually employ him to help design the AA program? If he did do so, who

would have been better to design a program that is so manipulative it would

keep you coming back.

Mike M

At 11:21 AM 01/08/2000 -0800, you wrote:

> " dave " wrote:

>original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=11303

>

>>

>> imagine that, a trained psychologist with a degree from somewhere

>> claiming that Bill W. was first person in human history to have the

>> ability to stop drinking! god the man must be some highly evolved form

>> of super human! lets look him up in medical journals, women let him

>> father your children so we can spread his seed.

>>

>------------------------------

>

> EEEK!! Stop, Dave, you're gonna give me nightmares!!

>

>~Rita

>

>

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>Toys, Books, Software. Save $10 on any order of $25 or more at

>SmarterKids.com. Hurry, offer expires 1/15/00.

>http://click./1/646/1/_/4324/_/947359311/

>

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>-- /vote?listname=12-step-free & m=1

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>

>