Guest guest Posted December 13, 1999 Report Share Posted December 13, 1999 Great letter, Tommy, and great quotes! The article about Fingarette is very scary. I don't think I see eye to eye with you about Craik, however. When was the last time you heard a doctor say he was wrong? Craik may have been the last one in American history to say so. It is amazing that he was openminded enough to concede that Dick was right, and he is correct when he says that having done the best they could do in light of the best knowledge they then had, they were justified. Indeed, doctors nowadays will be sued for all they own if they undertake something experimental and unproven by several replicated double-blind experiments. In fact, one of our gripes with AA, in part, is that is unproven by several replicated double-blind experiments, is it not? --- Kayleigh Zz zZ |\ z _,,,---,,_ /,`.-'`' _ ;-;;,_ |,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-' '---''(_/--' `-'\_) >First let me say thanks to Ben, Joe et.al for your encouragement on this >thing. The day that I read about the Supreme Court's decision not to hear >the Warner case, a very empty feeling came over me that lasted all day. >They could have made the entire country 12-step-free but chose not to. >Surely they must know that there are and will be more complaints coming up >the pipe--burdening the tax payers with expensive litigation. Surely they >must know that only a fool could believe that AA is not religious. Surely >they must know that freeing the souls of only three states is a >contradiction to the lofty maxim which adorns their building. > >But the battle goes on. Ideally I would like to see a case such as Rita's >be the final knock-out punch. Rita has been a courageous and winning >warrior all along, winning in court, and keeping her career and retirement. >And surely she suffered in a way that I probably understand more than most, >although no one can ever accurately measure the suffering of another. >During the short period of time that I was in U.S. Navy " treatment " I >thought that I had somehow had the misfortune to fall into the hands of a >rare and bizarrely sadistic ring of people, who together were getting their >kicks by tormenting those whose future careers were at the mercy of a >thumbs-up or thumbs-down vote. As I looked into the matter further I >realized that yes, they were bizarrely sadistic, but no, they were not rare. > It is the nature of the beast; truly these people are " governed by bad >passions. " What other assessment can one make when reading words like these >from Rita: > > > " In fact, I was told point-blank by my treatment counselor (a proud >stepper " in recovery " ) that if the God I believed in was insufficient >as a " higher power " with which to work the steps, that I *must* find >some OTHER " Power " to believe in! " > >When I read these words I was probably more heart-wrung than most, but less >shocked than most, if that makes sense. > >Yes, it is the nature of the beast; in France Blaise Pascal wrote: > > " Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from >religious conviction. " > >In England C.S. wrote: > > " ...but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end >for they do so with the approval of their own conscience...To be 'cured' >against one's will and cured of states which we may not regard as disease is >to be put on a level with those who have not yet reached the age of reason >or those who never will. " > >And during the American Revolution--only about five years after, at age 33, >he had drafted that famous letter to King III--Jefferson wrote: > > " The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are >injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there >are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my >leg...... Subject opinion to coercion: whom will you make your inquisitors? >Fallible men; men governed by bad passions, by private as well as public >reasons. And why subject it to coercion? To produce uniformity. But is >uniformity of opinion desirable? No more than of face and stature...... What >has been the effect of coercion? To make one half the world fools, and the >other half hypocrites ......The shackles, therefore, which shall not be >knocked off at the conclusion of this war, will remain on us long, will be >made heavier and heavier, till our rights shall revive or expire in a >convulsion. " > > > >I drove to Virginia Beach Saturday to photo copy a fresh, >suitable-for-scanning copy of v. Liard. Regent University has the >closest law library to where I live. I had not been in the place in years, >and it brought back memories of all the time I had spent there during the >early part of this decade. > >When I returned home I went into my wheelbarrow size paper files and >eventually found what I was looking for to clear my foggy memory on Traynor >v. Turnage. In the aftermath of the Supreme Court decision and the release >of Herbert Fingarette's " Heavy Drinking: The Myth of Alcoholism as a >Disease " , the wacko-stepper magazine, " Alcoholism & Addiction " , published in >its July-August 1988 issue an article called " The Fingarette Fallacies " , >which included a box article called " Defending the Disease. " To see just >how jittery Fingarette made this nasty flock of soul buzzards, consider the >following quotes: > > " In trying to skirt the disease question, Justice White, in rendering the >majority opinion of the Court, created an uproar by stating, 'It is not our >role to resolve this medical issue on which the authorities are sharply >divided.' Sharply divided? We have yet to see a medical authority step >forward and present evidence to suggest that alcoholism is not a disease. " > > " In these times of supposed enlightenment on addictions, it's hard to >believe that anyone would take Professor Fingarette seriously. His >theories, however, were embraced by members of the Supreme Court, and were >the basis for Justice White's remarks about authorities being sharply >divided. " > > " Fingarette is a dangerous man. His writing is extremely convincing to >semi-literate readers--to people that know very little about social >sciences, science in general, mental disease, or alcoholism. Through one >small article in the Harvard Law Review, he has managed to influence the >Supreme Court of the United States, and his popularity is apparently >increasing. " > > " If people believe his arguments, Fingarette may cause the number of >injuries, deaths, and suffering in general that can result from alcoholism >to increase. " > >The box article is headlined as follows: > > Once and For All > Defending the Disease > How America's Authorities View the Disease of Alcoholism > >It includes photographs of, and short comments by, the following ten people: > >1. E. , MD, President-Elect AMA >2. Reagan, then First Lady >3. Jimmy >4. Q. Ford, President NAATP >5. Margaret Bean-Bayog, MD, President AMSAODD >6. G. Talbott,MD, Ridgeview Institute >7. Pastor Schuller, Crystal Cathedral >8. Senator Arlen Spector >9. Betty Ford, On a lofty perch looking down on people as sickos. >10.Otis R. Bowen,MD, Secretary HHS > >Well, we all know who Talbott is, right? Talbott is Atlanta's heavyweight >soul raper who recently got his zealot butt kicked in court to the tune of >big bucks. Here is Talbott's comment: > > " Chemical dependency has been classified as a disease since the time of the >American Revolution. So classified by Dr. Rush, a physician, who >was one of the signers of the Declaration of Independence. We have learned >more about these illnesses in the past five years than in the past five >hundred years and it is now evident that alcoholism and other drug >addictions are truly psycho-social biogenetic diseases, established, >verified, no longer a concept but now a precept. " > >Well gee, if Rush said so then it must be true, right? Lets take a >look at Rush, the grand daddy of all Therapeutic State shrinks. As Ken Ragge >points out in " The Real AA, " Rush was indeed the first to " define " >alcoholism as a disease. Ken references chapter nine of Szasz's " The >Manufacture of Madness: A Comparative Study of the Inquisition and the >Mental Health Movement. " Szasz devotes an entire chapter to Rush and makes >it clear that Rush discovered nothing, he only defined. That has not >changed to this day, no discoveries, only definitions--and corruption, " a >mere contrivance to filch wealth and power. " > >One of Jefferson's most famous quotations is engraved in stone at the >Jefferson Memorial in Washington and comes from one of his letters written >to Rush: > > " I have sworn upon the alter of God eternal hostility against every form of >tyranny over the mind of man. " > >http://www.nps.gov/thje/jwrite.htm > >The letter itself is available through the Cliff links of AA >Deprogramming: > >http://www.aracnet.com/~atheism/hist/jeff1080.htm > >Jefferson, because of his role in securing religious liberty, was despised >by the establishment inclined clergy of his day, and he took no prisoners in >his counter-attacks, referring to them as cannibals, mountebanks, false >shepherds, charlatans, pious and whining hypocrites, mystery mongers, >soothsayers, and more. He once referred to the area surrounding his >hometown of Charlottesville as " a Sodom and Gomorrah of parsons. " > >The Revolution ended, both Jefferson and Rush continued to write >prolifically, sometimes to each other, and an interesting series of events >would unfold on the other side of the Atlantic. The allegedly " mad " King > III was " treated " by the " Rev. " Francis Willis, a rural clergyman who > " from motives of principle and charity towards his fellow creatures " had >interested himself in the insane. In writing about this " treatment " >relationship, Dr. Ida Macalpine and Dr. Hunter stated in their 1967 >book, " III and the Mad Business " , " So began the new system of >Government of the King by intimidation, coercion, and restraint. No account >of the illness from this point on can disregard the King's treatment, and to >what extent the turbulence he displayed was provoked by the repressive and >punitive methods by which he was ruled. " > >Of Dr. Rush, the " great " Revolutionary War doctor and signer of the >Declaration of Independence, P.M. Ashburn wrote in his " History of the >Medical Department of the U.S. Army " , " By virtue of his social and >professional prominence, his position as teacher and his facile pen, > Rush had more influence upon American medicine and was more potent >in the propagation and long perpetuation of medical errors than any man of >his day. To him more than to any man in America, was due the great vogue of >vomits, purging, and especially of bleeding, salivation and blistering, >which blackened the record of medicine and afflicted the sick almost to the >time of the Civil War. " > >On the cold, windy afternoon of December 14, 1799, a horse ridden by 37 year >old Dr. Elisha Cullen Dick galloped up the snow covered driveway of Mt. >Vernon. He was of a " newer " school of medical thought than the two older >doctors who were tending General Washington, and he had been summoned for a >more collective opinion. When Dr. Dick arrived the General had already been >bled three times. " He needs all of his strength--bleeding will diminish >it. " was the iconoclastic young doctor's opinion. His advice was not taken >by the two veteran bleeders, Dr. Craik and Dr. Brown. Washington was bled >for the fourth time. He died that evening. Craik later wrote Brown that >they should have listened to Dick. Had they " taken no more blood from him, >our good friend might have been alive now. But we were governed by the best >light we had; we thought we were right, and so we are justified. " > > > " It is error alone which needs the support of government. Truth can stand >by itself. " > > Jefferson >Notes on the State of Virginia (1781) > >http://www.aracnet.com/~atheism/hist/jeff0283.htm > > > > > >______________________________________________________ > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >Imagine a credit card with a 0% Intro APR and Instant Approval >It seems impossible, but its not. Visit GetSmart.coms Credit Card >Finder and click on instant approval cards right now at >http://clickhere./click/1272 > > >-- Easily schedule meetings and events using the group calendar! >-- /cal?listname=12-step-free & m=1 > > > --== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==-- Share what you know. Learn what you don't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 14, 1999 Report Share Posted December 14, 1999 Thanks, Wally. Here is the excellent NY Times article: http://www.nytimes.com/library/national/science/health/121499hth-washington-malp\ ractice.html That's the first I've heard about the Rush law suit. Pretty wild that he won on that very day. Thanks, Kayleigh. I'm not sure what you mean about seeing eye to eye. My info was taken from Flexnor's (mentioned in the Times article) biography of Washington. I had it on disk from a piece I wrote about ten years ago. I expressed no opinion about Craik. Tommy > >Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups >To: <12-step-freeegroups> >Subject: Re: 200 Years Ago Today >Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 13:09:13 -0500 > > >-----Original Message----- > > > > > >Great letter, Tommy, and great quotes! > > > >Yes! > > >The article about Fingarette is very scary. > >Scary perhaps, but also encouraging, in an odd way. First of all, the >rhetoric about Fingarette -- the namecalling, the fear-mongering, the >appeal >to authority, where the " authorities " all turn out to be politicians and >treatment profiteers -- would never be found in any legitimate scientific >or >professional journal. The inappropriateness of this response suggests a >kind >of panic. The claim that " many will die " just because someone suggests that >alcoholism isn't a disease was also trumpeted about when the RAND report >(which gave evidence that some alcoholics could return to controlled >drinking) came out in the late seventies. I wonder if the mechanisms at >work >here might not include guilt and projection? Folks in the treatment racket >must know, at some level, that treatment is at best neutral in its effect, >and that at worst it is equivalent to murder (by provoking suicide, by >encouraging uncontrolled drinking and drugging, by sweeping fixable >maladjustments under the rug of alcoholism/addiction, etc.) > >What is " encouraging " is that it shows how easily the 12-step addictioneers >can be panicked, by a slim book that summarizes research and discusses it >rationally in plain language. > > > > >I don't think I see eye to eye with you about Craik, however. > >There's an interesting article on the medical aspects of Washington's death >in the Science section of today's (Tuesday 12/14/99) New York Times Science >section. (www.nytimes.com) > >-- wally > > >When was the last time you heard a doctor say he was wrong? Craik may >have >been the last >one in American history to say so. It is amazing that he >was >openminded enough to concede >that Dick was right, and he is correct when >he >says that having done the best they could do >in light of the best >knowledge >they then had, they were justified. Indeed, doctors nowadays >will be sued >for all they own if they undertake something experimental and unproven by > >several replicated double-blind experiments. In fact, one of our gripes >with AA, in part, >is that is unproven by several replicated double-blind >experiments, is it not? > >--- > >Kayleigh > > > > Zz > > zZ > > |\ z _,,,---,,_ > > /,`.-'`' _ ;-;;,_ > > |,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-' > > '---''(_/--' `-'\_) > > > > > > > > > >>First let me say thanks to Ben, Joe et.al for your encouragement on this > >>thing. The day that I read about the Supreme Court's decision not to >hear > >>the Warner case, a very empty feeling came over me that lasted all day. > >>They could have made the entire country 12-step-free but chose not to. > >>Surely they must know that there are and will be more complaints coming >up > >>the pipe--burdening the tax payers with expensive litigation. Surely >they > >>must know that only a fool could believe that AA is not religious. >Surely > >>they must know that freeing the souls of only three states is a > >>contradiction to the lofty maxim which adorns their building. > >> > >>But the battle goes on. Ideally I would like to see a case such as >Rita's > >>be the final knock-out punch. Rita has been a courageous and winning > >>warrior all along, winning in court, and keeping her career and >retirement. > >>And surely she suffered in a way that I probably understand more than >most, > >>although no one can ever accurately measure the suffering of another. > >>During the short period of time that I was in U.S. Navy " treatment " I > >>thought that I had somehow had the misfortune to fall into the hands of >a > >>rare and bizarrely sadistic ring of people, who together were getting >their > >>kicks by tormenting those whose future careers were at the mercy of a > >>thumbs-up or thumbs-down vote. As I looked into the matter further I > >>realized that yes, they were bizarrely sadistic, but no, they were not >rare. > >> It is the nature of the beast; truly these people are " governed by bad > >>passions. " What other assessment can one make when reading words like >these > >>from Rita: > >> > >> > >> " In fact, I was told point-blank by my treatment counselor (a proud > >>stepper " in recovery " ) that if the God I believed in was insufficient > >>as a " higher power " with which to work the steps, that I *must* find > >>some OTHER " Power " to believe in! " > >> > >>When I read these words I was probably more heart-wrung than most, but >less > >>shocked than most, if that makes sense. > >> > >>Yes, it is the nature of the beast; in France Blaise Pascal wrote: > >> > >> " Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from > >>religious conviction. " > >> > >>In England C.S. wrote: > >> > >> " ...but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without >end > >>for they do so with the approval of their own conscience...To be 'cured' > >>against one's will and cured of states which we may not regard as >disease >is > >>to be put on a level with those who have not yet reached the age of >reason > >>or those who never will. " > >> > >>And during the American Revolution--only about five years after, at age >33, > >>he had drafted that famous letter to King III--Jefferson wrote: > >> > >> " The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are > >>injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say >there > >>are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my > >>leg...... Subject opinion to coercion: whom will you make your >inquisitors? > >>Fallible men; men governed by bad passions, by private as well as public > >>reasons. And why subject it to coercion? To produce uniformity. But is > >>uniformity of opinion desirable? No more than of face and stature...... >What > >>has been the effect of coercion? To make one half the world fools, and >the > >>other half hypocrites ......The shackles, therefore, which shall not be > >>knocked off at the conclusion of this war, will remain on us long, will >be > >>made heavier and heavier, till our rights shall revive or expire in a > >>convulsion. " > >> > >> > >> > >>I drove to Virginia Beach Saturday to photo copy a fresh, > >>suitable-for-scanning copy of v. Liard. Regent University has >the > >>closest law library to where I live. I had not been in the place in >years, > >>and it brought back memories of all the time I had spent there during >the > >>early part of this decade. > >> > >>When I returned home I went into my wheelbarrow size paper files and > >>eventually found what I was looking for to clear my foggy memory on >Traynor > >>v. Turnage. In the aftermath of the Supreme Court decision and the >release > >>of Herbert Fingarette's " Heavy Drinking: The Myth of Alcoholism as a > >>Disease " , the wacko-stepper magazine, " Alcoholism & Addiction " , >published >in > >>its July-August 1988 issue an article called " The Fingarette Fallacies " , > >>which included a box article called " Defending the Disease. " To see >just > >>how jittery Fingarette made this nasty flock of soul buzzards, consider >the > >>following quotes: > >> > >> " In trying to skirt the disease question, Justice White, in rendering >the > >>majority opinion of the Court, created an uproar by stating, 'It is not >our > >>role to resolve this medical issue on which the authorities are sharply > >>divided.' Sharply divided? We have yet to see a medical authority step > >>forward and present evidence to suggest that alcoholism is not a >disease. " > >> > >> " In these times of supposed enlightenment on addictions, it's hard to > >>believe that anyone would take Professor Fingarette seriously. His > >>theories, however, were embraced by members of the Supreme Court, and >were > >>the basis for Justice White's remarks about authorities being sharply > >>divided. " > >> > >> " Fingarette is a dangerous man. His writing is extremely convincing to > >>semi-literate readers--to people that know very little about social > >>sciences, science in general, mental disease, or alcoholism. Through >one > >>small article in the Harvard Law Review, he has managed to influence the > >>Supreme Court of the United States, and his popularity is apparently > >>increasing. " > >> > >> " If people believe his arguments, Fingarette may cause the number of > >>injuries, deaths, and suffering in general that can result from >alcoholism > >>to increase. " > >> > >>The box article is headlined as follows: > >> > >> Once and For All > >> Defending the Disease > >> How America's Authorities View the Disease of Alcoholism > >> > >>It includes photographs of, and short comments by, the following ten >people: > >> > >>1. E. , MD, President-Elect AMA > >>2. Reagan, then First Lady > >>3. Jimmy > >>4. Q. Ford, President NAATP > >>5. Margaret Bean-Bayog, MD, President AMSAODD > >>6. G. Talbott,MD, Ridgeview Institute > >>7. Pastor Schuller, Crystal Cathedral > >>8. Senator Arlen Spector > >>9. Betty Ford, On a lofty perch looking down on people as sickos. > >>10.Otis R. Bowen,MD, Secretary HHS > >> > >>Well, we all know who Talbott is, right? Talbott is Atlanta's >heavyweight > >>soul raper who recently got his zealot butt kicked in court to the tune >of > >>big bucks. Here is Talbott's comment: > >> > >> " Chemical dependency has been classified as a disease since the time of >the > >>American Revolution. So classified by Dr. Rush, a physician, >who > >>was one of the signers of the Declaration of Independence. We have >learned > >>more about these illnesses in the past five years than in the past five > >>hundred years and it is now evident that alcoholism and other drug > >>addictions are truly psycho-social biogenetic diseases, established, > >>verified, no longer a concept but now a precept. " > >> > >>Well gee, if Rush said so then it must be true, right? Lets >take >a > >>look at Rush, the grand daddy of all Therapeutic State shrinks. As Ken >Ragge > >>points out in " The Real AA, " Rush was indeed the first to " define " > >>alcoholism as a disease. Ken references chapter nine of Szasz's > " The > >>Manufacture of Madness: A Comparative Study of the Inquisition and the > >>Mental Health Movement. " Szasz devotes an entire chapter to Rush and >makes > >>it clear that Rush discovered nothing, he only defined. That has not > >>changed to this day, no discoveries, only definitions--and corruption, > " a > >>mere contrivance to filch wealth and power. " > >> > >>One of Jefferson's most famous quotations is engraved in stone at >the > >>Jefferson Memorial in Washington and comes from one of his letters >written > >>to Rush: > >> > >> " I have sworn upon the alter of God eternal hostility against every form >of > >>tyranny over the mind of man. " > >> > >>http://www.nps.gov/thje/jwrite.htm > >> > >>The letter itself is available through the Cliff links of AA > >>Deprogramming: > >> > >>http://www.aracnet.com/~atheism/hist/jeff1080.htm > >> > >>Jefferson, because of his role in securing religious liberty, was >despised > >>by the establishment inclined clergy of his day, and he took no >prisoners >in > >>his counter-attacks, referring to them as cannibals, mountebanks, false > >>shepherds, charlatans, pious and whining hypocrites, mystery mongers, > >>soothsayers, and more. He once referred to the area surrounding his > >>hometown of Charlottesville as " a Sodom and Gomorrah of parsons. " > >> > >>The Revolution ended, both Jefferson and Rush continued to write > >>prolifically, sometimes to each other, and an interesting series of >events > >>would unfold on the other side of the Atlantic. The allegedly " mad " >King > >> III was " treated " by the " Rev. " Francis Willis, a rural clergyman >who > >> " from motives of principle and charity towards his fellow creatures " had > >>interested himself in the insane. In writing about this " treatment " > >>relationship, Dr. Ida Macalpine and Dr. Hunter stated in their >1967 > >>book, " III and the Mad Business " , " So began the new system of > >>Government of the King by intimidation, coercion, and restraint. No >account > >>of the illness from this point on can disregard the King's treatment, >and >to > >>what extent the turbulence he displayed was provoked by the repressive >and > >>punitive methods by which he was ruled. " > >> > >>Of Dr. Rush, the " great " Revolutionary War doctor and signer of >the > >>Declaration of Independence, P.M. Ashburn wrote in his " History of the > >>Medical Department of the U.S. Army " , " By virtue of his social and > >>professional prominence, his position as teacher and his facile pen, > >> Rush had more influence upon American medicine and was more >potent > >>in the propagation and long perpetuation of medical errors than any man >of > >>his day. To him more than to any man in America, was due the great >vogue >of > >>vomits, purging, and especially of bleeding, salivation and blistering, > >>which blackened the record of medicine and afflicted the sick almost to >the > >>time of the Civil War. " > >> > >>On the cold, windy afternoon of December 14, 1799, a horse ridden by 37 >year > >>old Dr. Elisha Cullen Dick galloped up the snow covered driveway of Mt. > >>Vernon. He was of a " newer " school of medical thought than the two >older > >>doctors who were tending General Washington, and he had been summoned >for >a > >>more collective opinion. When Dr. Dick arrived the General had already >been > >>bled three times. " He needs all of his strength--bleeding will diminish > >>it. " was the iconoclastic young doctor's opinion. His advice was not >taken > >>by the two veteran bleeders, Dr. Craik and Dr. Brown. Washington was >bled > >>for the fourth time. He died that evening. Craik later wrote Brown >that > >>they should have listened to Dick. Had they " taken no more blood from >him, > >>our good friend might have been alive now. But we were governed by the >best > >>light we had; we thought we were right, and so we are justified. " > >> > >> > >> " It is error alone which needs the support of government. Truth can >stand > >>by itself. " > >> > >> Jefferson > >>Notes on the State of Virginia (1781) > >> > >>http://www.aracnet.com/~atheism/hist/jeff0283.htm > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >>______________________________________________________ > >> > >>------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >>Imagine a credit card with a 0% Intro APR and Instant Approval > >>It seems impossible, but its not. Visit GetSmart.coms Credit Card > >>Finder and click on instant approval cards right now at > >>http://clickhere./click/1272 > >> > >> > >>-- Easily schedule meetings and events using the group calendar! > >>-- /cal?listname=12-step-free & m=1 > >> > >> > >> > > > > > >--== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==-- > >Share what you know. Learn what you don't. > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >Don’t have the time or patience to search for unique > >products & services? Then click to let us find them for you. > >You Request, We Respond. http://clickhere./click/1957 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >-- Check out your group's private Chat room > >-- /ChatPage?listName=12-step-free & m=1 > > > > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >GRAB THE GATOR! FREE SOFTWARE DOES ALL THE TYPING FOR YOU! >Gator fills in forms and remembers passwords with NO TYPING at over >100,000 web sites! Get $100 in coupons for trying Gator! >http://clickhere./click/2092 > >eGroups.com Home: /group/12-step-free/ > - Simplifying group communications > > ______________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 14, 1999 Report Share Posted December 14, 1999 -----Original Message----- >Great letter, Tommy, and great quotes! > Yes! >The article about Fingarette is very scary. Scary perhaps, but also encouraging, in an odd way. First of all, the rhetoric about Fingarette -- the namecalling, the fear-mongering, the appeal to authority, where the " authorities " all turn out to be politicians and treatment profiteers -- would never be found in any legitimate scientific or professional journal. The inappropriateness of this response suggests a kind of panic. The claim that " many will die " just because someone suggests that alcoholism isn't a disease was also trumpeted about when the RAND report (which gave evidence that some alcoholics could return to controlled drinking) came out in the late seventies. I wonder if the mechanisms at work here might not include guilt and projection? Folks in the treatment racket must know, at some level, that treatment is at best neutral in its effect, and that at worst it is equivalent to murder (by provoking suicide, by encouraging uncontrolled drinking and drugging, by sweeping fixable maladjustments under the rug of alcoholism/addiction, etc.) What is " encouraging " is that it shows how easily the 12-step addictioneers can be panicked, by a slim book that summarizes research and discusses it rationally in plain language. > >I don't think I see eye to eye with you about Craik, however. There's an interesting article on the medical aspects of Washington's death in the Science section of today's (Tuesday 12/14/99) New York Times Science section. (www.nytimes.com) -- wally >When was the last time you heard a doctor say he was wrong? Craik may have been the last >one in American history to say so. It is amazing that he was openminded enough to concede >that Dick was right, and he is correct when he says that having done the best they could do >in light of the best knowledge they then had, they were justified. Indeed, doctors nowadays >will be sued for all they own if they undertake something experimental and unproven by >several replicated double-blind experiments. In fact, one of our gripes with AA, in part, >is that is unproven by several replicated double-blind experiments, is it not? >--- >Kayleigh > > Zz > zZ > |\ z _,,,---,,_ > /,`.-'`' _ ;-;;,_ > |,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-' > '---''(_/--' `-'\_) > > > > >>First let me say thanks to Ben, Joe et.al for your encouragement on this >>thing. The day that I read about the Supreme Court's decision not to hear >>the Warner case, a very empty feeling came over me that lasted all day. >>They could have made the entire country 12-step-free but chose not to. >>Surely they must know that there are and will be more complaints coming up >>the pipe--burdening the tax payers with expensive litigation. Surely they >>must know that only a fool could believe that AA is not religious. Surely >>they must know that freeing the souls of only three states is a >>contradiction to the lofty maxim which adorns their building. >> >>But the battle goes on. Ideally I would like to see a case such as Rita's >>be the final knock-out punch. Rita has been a courageous and winning >>warrior all along, winning in court, and keeping her career and retirement. >>And surely she suffered in a way that I probably understand more than most, >>although no one can ever accurately measure the suffering of another. >>During the short period of time that I was in U.S. Navy " treatment " I >>thought that I had somehow had the misfortune to fall into the hands of a >>rare and bizarrely sadistic ring of people, who together were getting their >>kicks by tormenting those whose future careers were at the mercy of a >>thumbs-up or thumbs-down vote. As I looked into the matter further I >>realized that yes, they were bizarrely sadistic, but no, they were not rare. >> It is the nature of the beast; truly these people are " governed by bad >>passions. " What other assessment can one make when reading words like these >>from Rita: >> >> >> " In fact, I was told point-blank by my treatment counselor (a proud >>stepper " in recovery " ) that if the God I believed in was insufficient >>as a " higher power " with which to work the steps, that I *must* find >>some OTHER " Power " to believe in! " >> >>When I read these words I was probably more heart-wrung than most, but less >>shocked than most, if that makes sense. >> >>Yes, it is the nature of the beast; in France Blaise Pascal wrote: >> >> " Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from >>religious conviction. " >> >>In England C.S. wrote: >> >> " ...but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end >>for they do so with the approval of their own conscience...To be 'cured' >>against one's will and cured of states which we may not regard as disease is >>to be put on a level with those who have not yet reached the age of reason >>or those who never will. " >> >>And during the American Revolution--only about five years after, at age 33, >>he had drafted that famous letter to King III--Jefferson wrote: >> >> " The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are >>injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there >>are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my >>leg...... Subject opinion to coercion: whom will you make your inquisitors? >>Fallible men; men governed by bad passions, by private as well as public >>reasons. And why subject it to coercion? To produce uniformity. But is >>uniformity of opinion desirable? No more than of face and stature...... What >>has been the effect of coercion? To make one half the world fools, and the >>other half hypocrites ......The shackles, therefore, which shall not be >>knocked off at the conclusion of this war, will remain on us long, will be >>made heavier and heavier, till our rights shall revive or expire in a >>convulsion. " >> >> >> >>I drove to Virginia Beach Saturday to photo copy a fresh, >>suitable-for-scanning copy of v. Liard. Regent University has the >>closest law library to where I live. I had not been in the place in years, >>and it brought back memories of all the time I had spent there during the >>early part of this decade. >> >>When I returned home I went into my wheelbarrow size paper files and >>eventually found what I was looking for to clear my foggy memory on Traynor >>v. Turnage. In the aftermath of the Supreme Court decision and the release >>of Herbert Fingarette's " Heavy Drinking: The Myth of Alcoholism as a >>Disease " , the wacko-stepper magazine, " Alcoholism & Addiction " , published in >>its July-August 1988 issue an article called " The Fingarette Fallacies " , >>which included a box article called " Defending the Disease. " To see just >>how jittery Fingarette made this nasty flock of soul buzzards, consider the >>following quotes: >> >> " In trying to skirt the disease question, Justice White, in rendering the >>majority opinion of the Court, created an uproar by stating, 'It is not our >>role to resolve this medical issue on which the authorities are sharply >>divided.' Sharply divided? We have yet to see a medical authority step >>forward and present evidence to suggest that alcoholism is not a disease. " >> >> " In these times of supposed enlightenment on addictions, it's hard to >>believe that anyone would take Professor Fingarette seriously. His >>theories, however, were embraced by members of the Supreme Court, and were >>the basis for Justice White's remarks about authorities being sharply >>divided. " >> >> " Fingarette is a dangerous man. His writing is extremely convincing to >>semi-literate readers--to people that know very little about social >>sciences, science in general, mental disease, or alcoholism. Through one >>small article in the Harvard Law Review, he has managed to influence the >>Supreme Court of the United States, and his popularity is apparently >>increasing. " >> >> " If people believe his arguments, Fingarette may cause the number of >>injuries, deaths, and suffering in general that can result from alcoholism >>to increase. " >> >>The box article is headlined as follows: >> >> Once and For All >> Defending the Disease >> How America's Authorities View the Disease of Alcoholism >> >>It includes photographs of, and short comments by, the following ten people: >> >>1. E. , MD, President-Elect AMA >>2. Reagan, then First Lady >>3. Jimmy >>4. Q. Ford, President NAATP >>5. Margaret Bean-Bayog, MD, President AMSAODD >>6. G. Talbott,MD, Ridgeview Institute >>7. Pastor Schuller, Crystal Cathedral >>8. Senator Arlen Spector >>9. Betty Ford, On a lofty perch looking down on people as sickos. >>10.Otis R. Bowen,MD, Secretary HHS >> >>Well, we all know who Talbott is, right? Talbott is Atlanta's heavyweight >>soul raper who recently got his zealot butt kicked in court to the tune of >>big bucks. Here is Talbott's comment: >> >> " Chemical dependency has been classified as a disease since the time of the >>American Revolution. So classified by Dr. Rush, a physician, who >>was one of the signers of the Declaration of Independence. We have learned >>more about these illnesses in the past five years than in the past five >>hundred years and it is now evident that alcoholism and other drug >>addictions are truly psycho-social biogenetic diseases, established, >>verified, no longer a concept but now a precept. " >> >>Well gee, if Rush said so then it must be true, right? Lets take a >>look at Rush, the grand daddy of all Therapeutic State shrinks. As Ken Ragge >>points out in " The Real AA, " Rush was indeed the first to " define " >>alcoholism as a disease. Ken references chapter nine of Szasz's " The >>Manufacture of Madness: A Comparative Study of the Inquisition and the >>Mental Health Movement. " Szasz devotes an entire chapter to Rush and makes >>it clear that Rush discovered nothing, he only defined. That has not >>changed to this day, no discoveries, only definitions--and corruption, " a >>mere contrivance to filch wealth and power. " >> >>One of Jefferson's most famous quotations is engraved in stone at the >>Jefferson Memorial in Washington and comes from one of his letters written >>to Rush: >> >> " I have sworn upon the alter of God eternal hostility against every form of >>tyranny over the mind of man. " >> >>http://www.nps.gov/thje/jwrite.htm >> >>The letter itself is available through the Cliff links of AA >>Deprogramming: >> >>http://www.aracnet.com/~atheism/hist/jeff1080.htm >> >>Jefferson, because of his role in securing religious liberty, was despised >>by the establishment inclined clergy of his day, and he took no prisoners in >>his counter-attacks, referring to them as cannibals, mountebanks, false >>shepherds, charlatans, pious and whining hypocrites, mystery mongers, >>soothsayers, and more. He once referred to the area surrounding his >>hometown of Charlottesville as " a Sodom and Gomorrah of parsons. " >> >>The Revolution ended, both Jefferson and Rush continued to write >>prolifically, sometimes to each other, and an interesting series of events >>would unfold on the other side of the Atlantic. The allegedly " mad " King >> III was " treated " by the " Rev. " Francis Willis, a rural clergyman who >> " from motives of principle and charity towards his fellow creatures " had >>interested himself in the insane. In writing about this " treatment " >>relationship, Dr. Ida Macalpine and Dr. Hunter stated in their 1967 >>book, " III and the Mad Business " , " So began the new system of >>Government of the King by intimidation, coercion, and restraint. No account >>of the illness from this point on can disregard the King's treatment, and to >>what extent the turbulence he displayed was provoked by the repressive and >>punitive methods by which he was ruled. " >> >>Of Dr. Rush, the " great " Revolutionary War doctor and signer of the >>Declaration of Independence, P.M. Ashburn wrote in his " History of the >>Medical Department of the U.S. Army " , " By virtue of his social and >>professional prominence, his position as teacher and his facile pen, >> Rush had more influence upon American medicine and was more potent >>in the propagation and long perpetuation of medical errors than any man of >>his day. To him more than to any man in America, was due the great vogue of >>vomits, purging, and especially of bleeding, salivation and blistering, >>which blackened the record of medicine and afflicted the sick almost to the >>time of the Civil War. " >> >>On the cold, windy afternoon of December 14, 1799, a horse ridden by 37 year >>old Dr. Elisha Cullen Dick galloped up the snow covered driveway of Mt. >>Vernon. He was of a " newer " school of medical thought than the two older >>doctors who were tending General Washington, and he had been summoned for a >>more collective opinion. When Dr. Dick arrived the General had already been >>bled three times. " He needs all of his strength--bleeding will diminish >>it. " was the iconoclastic young doctor's opinion. His advice was not taken >>by the two veteran bleeders, Dr. Craik and Dr. Brown. Washington was bled >>for the fourth time. He died that evening. Craik later wrote Brown that >>they should have listened to Dick. Had they " taken no more blood from him, >>our good friend might have been alive now. But we were governed by the best >>light we had; we thought we were right, and so we are justified. " >> >> >> " It is error alone which needs the support of government. Truth can stand >>by itself. " >> >> Jefferson >>Notes on the State of Virginia (1781) >> >>http://www.aracnet.com/~atheism/hist/jeff0283.htm >> >> >> >> >> >>______________________________________________________ >> >>------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>Imagine a credit card with a 0% Intro APR and Instant Approval >>It seems impossible, but its not. Visit GetSmart.coms Credit Card >>Finder and click on instant approval cards right now at >>http://clickhere./click/1272 >> >> >>-- Easily schedule meetings and events using the group calendar! >>-- /cal?listname=12-step-free & m=1 >> >> >> > > >--== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==-- >Share what you know. Learn what you don't. > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >Don’t have the time or patience to search for unique >products & services? Then click to let us find them for you. >You Request, We Respond. http://clickhere./click/1957 > > > > > > > > >-- Check out your group's private Chat room >-- /ChatPage?listName=12-step-free & m=1 > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 14, 1999 Report Share Posted December 14, 1999 Sorry if I misunderstood why you included Craik in your post. What were you getting at? --- Kayleigh Zz zZ |\ z _,,,---,,_ /,`.-'`' _ ;-;;,_ |,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-' '---''(_/--' `-'\_) >Thanks, Wally. Here is the excellent NY Times article: > >http://www.nytimes.com/library/national/science/health/121499hth-washington-mal\ practice.html > >That's the first I've heard about the Rush law suit. Pretty wild that he >won on that very day. > >Thanks, Kayleigh. I'm not sure what you mean about seeing eye to eye. My >info was taken from Flexnor's (mentioned in the Times article) biography of >Washington. I had it on disk from a piece I wrote about ten years ago. I >expressed no opinion about Craik. > >Tommy > > >> >>Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups >>To: <12-step-freeegroups> >>Subject: Re: 200 Years Ago Today >>Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 13:09:13 -0500 >> >> >>-----Original Message----- >> >> >> >> >> >Great letter, Tommy, and great quotes! >> > >> >>Yes! >> >> >The article about Fingarette is very scary. >> >>Scary perhaps, but also encouraging, in an odd way. First of all, the >>rhetoric about Fingarette -- the namecalling, the fear-mongering, the >>appeal >>to authority, where the " authorities " all turn out to be politicians and >>treatment profiteers -- would never be found in any legitimate scientific >>or >>professional journal. The inappropriateness of this response suggests a >>kind >>of panic. The claim that " many will die " just because someone suggests that >>alcoholism isn't a disease was also trumpeted about when the RAND report >>(which gave evidence that some alcoholics could return to controlled >>drinking) came out in the late seventies. I wonder if the mechanisms at >>work >>here might not include guilt and projection? Folks in the treatment racket >>must know, at some level, that treatment is at best neutral in its effect, >>and that at worst it is equivalent to murder (by provoking suicide, by >>encouraging uncontrolled drinking and drugging, by sweeping fixable >>maladjustments under the rug of alcoholism/addiction, etc.) >> >>What is " encouraging " is that it shows how easily the 12-step addictioneers >>can be panicked, by a slim book that summarizes research and discusses it >>rationally in plain language. >> >> > >> >I don't think I see eye to eye with you about Craik, however. >> >>There's an interesting article on the medical aspects of Washington's death >>in the Science section of today's (Tuesday 12/14/99) New York Times Science >>section. (www.nytimes.com) >> >>-- wally >> >> >When was the last time you heard a doctor say he was wrong? Craik may >>have >>been the last >one in American history to say so. It is amazing that he >>was >>openminded enough to concede >that Dick was right, and he is correct when >>he >>says that having done the best they could do >in light of the best >>knowledge >>they then had, they were justified. Indeed, doctors nowadays >will be sued >>for all they own if they undertake something experimental and unproven by >> >several replicated double-blind experiments. In fact, one of our gripes >>with AA, in part, >is that is unproven by several replicated double-blind >>experiments, is it not? >> >--- >> >Kayleigh >> > >> > Zz >> > zZ >> > |\ z _,,,---,,_ >> > /,`.-'`' _ ;-;;,_ >> > |,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-' >> > '---''(_/--' `-'\_) >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >>First let me say thanks to Ben, Joe et.al for your encouragement on this >> >>thing. The day that I read about the Supreme Court's decision not to >>hear >> >>the Warner case, a very empty feeling came over me that lasted all day. >> >>They could have made the entire country 12-step-free but chose not to. >> >>Surely they must know that there are and will be more complaints coming >>up >> >>the pipe--burdening the tax payers with expensive litigation. Surely >>they >> >>must know that only a fool could believe that AA is not religious. >>Surely >> >>they must know that freeing the souls of only three states is a >> >>contradiction to the lofty maxim which adorns their building. >> >> >> >>But the battle goes on. Ideally I would like to see a case such as >>Rita's >> >>be the final knock-out punch. Rita has been a courageous and winning >> >>warrior all along, winning in court, and keeping her career and >>retirement. >> >>And surely she suffered in a way that I probably understand more than >>most, >> >>although no one can ever accurately measure the suffering of another. >> >>During the short period of time that I was in U.S. Navy " treatment " I >> >>thought that I had somehow had the misfortune to fall into the hands of >>a >> >>rare and bizarrely sadistic ring of people, who together were getting >>their >> >>kicks by tormenting those whose future careers were at the mercy of a >> >>thumbs-up or thumbs-down vote. As I looked into the matter further I >> >>realized that yes, they were bizarrely sadistic, but no, they were not >>rare. >> >> It is the nature of the beast; truly these people are " governed by bad >> >>passions. " What other assessment can one make when reading words like >>these >> >>from Rita: >> >> >> >> >> >> " In fact, I was told point-blank by my treatment counselor (a proud >> >>stepper " in recovery " ) that if the God I believed in was insufficient >> >>as a " higher power " with which to work the steps, that I *must* find >> >>some OTHER " Power " to believe in! " >> >> >> >>When I read these words I was probably more heart-wrung than most, but >>less >> >>shocked than most, if that makes sense. >> >> >> >>Yes, it is the nature of the beast; in France Blaise Pascal wrote: >> >> >> >> " Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from >> >>religious conviction. " >> >> >> >>In England C.S. wrote: >> >> >> >> " ...but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without >>end >> >>for they do so with the approval of their own conscience...To be 'cured' >> >>against one's will and cured of states which we may not regard as >>disease >>is >> >>to be put on a level with those who have not yet reached the age of >>reason >> >>or those who never will. " >> >> >> >>And during the American Revolution--only about five years after, at age >>33, >> >>he had drafted that famous letter to King III--Jefferson wrote: >> >> >> >> " The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are >> >>injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say >>there >> >>are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my >> >>leg...... Subject opinion to coercion: whom will you make your >>inquisitors? >> >>Fallible men; men governed by bad passions, by private as well as public >> >>reasons. And why subject it to coercion? To produce uniformity. But is >> >>uniformity of opinion desirable? No more than of face and stature...... >>What >> >>has been the effect of coercion? To make one half the world fools, and >>the >> >>other half hypocrites ......The shackles, therefore, which shall not be >> >>knocked off at the conclusion of this war, will remain on us long, will >>be >> >>made heavier and heavier, till our rights shall revive or expire in a >> >>convulsion. " >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>I drove to Virginia Beach Saturday to photo copy a fresh, >> >>suitable-for-scanning copy of v. Liard. Regent University has >>the >> >>closest law library to where I live. I had not been in the place in >>years, >> >>and it brought back memories of all the time I had spent there during >>the >> >>early part of this decade. >> >> >> >>When I returned home I went into my wheelbarrow size paper files and >> >>eventually found what I was looking for to clear my foggy memory on >>Traynor >> >>v. Turnage. In the aftermath of the Supreme Court decision and the >>release >> >>of Herbert Fingarette's " Heavy Drinking: The Myth of Alcoholism as a >> >>Disease " , the wacko-stepper magazine, " Alcoholism & Addiction " , >>published >>in >> >>its July-August 1988 issue an article called " The Fingarette Fallacies " , >> >>which included a box article called " Defending the Disease. " To see >>just >> >>how jittery Fingarette made this nasty flock of soul buzzards, consider >>the >> >>following quotes: >> >> >> >> " In trying to skirt the disease question, Justice White, in rendering >>the >> >>majority opinion of the Court, created an uproar by stating, 'It is not >>our >> >>role to resolve this medical issue on which the authorities are sharply >> >>divided.' Sharply divided? We have yet to see a medical authority step >> >>forward and present evidence to suggest that alcoholism is not a >>disease. " >> >> >> >> " In these times of supposed enlightenment on addictions, it's hard to >> >>believe that anyone would take Professor Fingarette seriously. His >> >>theories, however, were embraced by members of the Supreme Court, and >>were >> >>the basis for Justice White's remarks about authorities being sharply >> >>divided. " >> >> >> >> " Fingarette is a dangerous man. His writing is extremely convincing to >> >>semi-literate readers--to people that know very little about social >> >>sciences, science in general, mental disease, or alcoholism. Through >>one >> >>small article in the Harvard Law Review, he has managed to influence the >> >>Supreme Court of the United States, and his popularity is apparently >> >>increasing. " >> >> >> >> " If people believe his arguments, Fingarette may cause the number of >> >>injuries, deaths, and suffering in general that can result from >>alcoholism >> >>to increase. " >> >> >> >>The box article is headlined as follows: >> >> >> >> Once and For All >> >> Defending the Disease >> >> How America's Authorities View the Disease of Alcoholism >> >> >> >>It includes photographs of, and short comments by, the following ten >>people: >> >> >> >>1. E. , MD, President-Elect AMA >> >>2. Reagan, then First Lady >> >>3. Jimmy >> >>4. Q. Ford, President NAATP >> >>5. Margaret Bean-Bayog, MD, President AMSAODD >> >>6. G. Talbott,MD, Ridgeview Institute >> >>7. Pastor Schuller, Crystal Cathedral >> >>8. Senator Arlen Spector >> >>9. Betty Ford, On a lofty perch looking down on people as sickos. >> >>10.Otis R. Bowen,MD, Secretary HHS >> >> >> >>Well, we all know who Talbott is, right? Talbott is Atlanta's >>heavyweight >> >>soul raper who recently got his zealot butt kicked in court to the tune >>of >> >>big bucks. Here is Talbott's comment: >> >> >> >> " Chemical dependency has been classified as a disease since the time of >>the >> >>American Revolution. So classified by Dr. Rush, a physician, >>who >> >>was one of the signers of the Declaration of Independence. We have >>learned >> >>more about these illnesses in the past five years than in the past five >> >>hundred years and it is now evident that alcoholism and other drug >> >>addictions are truly psycho-social biogenetic diseases, established, >> >>verified, no longer a concept but now a precept. " >> >> >> >>Well gee, if Rush said so then it must be true, right? Lets >>take >>a >> >>look at Rush, the grand daddy of all Therapeutic State shrinks. As Ken >>Ragge >> >>points out in " The Real AA, " Rush was indeed the first to " define " >> >>alcoholism as a disease. Ken references chapter nine of Szasz's >> " The >> >>Manufacture of Madness: A Comparative Study of the Inquisition and the >> >>Mental Health Movement. " Szasz devotes an entire chapter to Rush and >>makes >> >>it clear that Rush discovered nothing, he only defined. That has not >> >>changed to this day, no discoveries, only definitions--and corruption, >> " a >> >>mere contrivance to filch wealth and power. " >> >> >> >>One of Jefferson's most famous quotations is engraved in stone at >>the >> >>Jefferson Memorial in Washington and comes from one of his letters >>written >> >>to Rush: >> >> >> >> " I have sworn upon the alter of God eternal hostility against every form >>of >> >>tyranny over the mind of man. " >> >> >> >>http://www.nps.gov/thje/jwrite.htm >> >> >> >>The letter itself is available through the Cliff links of AA >> >>Deprogramming: >> >> >> >>http://www.aracnet.com/~atheism/hist/jeff1080.htm >> >> >> >>Jefferson, because of his role in securing religious liberty, was >>despised >> >>by the establishment inclined clergy of his day, and he took no >>prisoners >>in >> >>his counter-attacks, referring to them as cannibals, mountebanks, false >> >>shepherds, charlatans, pious and whining hypocrites, mystery mongers, >> >>soothsayers, and more. He once referred to the area surrounding his >> >>hometown of Charlottesville as " a Sodom and Gomorrah of parsons. " >> >> >> >>The Revolution ended, both Jefferson and Rush continued to write >> >>prolifically, sometimes to each other, and an interesting series of >>events >> >>would unfold on the other side of the Atlantic. The allegedly " mad " >>King >> >> III was " treated " by the " Rev. " Francis Willis, a rural clergyman >>who >> >> " from motives of principle and charity towards his fellow creatures " had >> >>interested himself in the insane. In writing about this " treatment " >> >>relationship, Dr. Ida Macalpine and Dr. Hunter stated in their >>1967 >> >>book, " III and the Mad Business " , " So began the new system of >> >>Government of the King by intimidation, coercion, and restraint. No >>account >> >>of the illness from this point on can disregard the King's treatment, >>and >>to >> >>what extent the turbulence he displayed was provoked by the repressive >>and >> >>punitive methods by which he was ruled. " >> >> >> >>Of Dr. Rush, the " great " Revolutionary War doctor and signer of >>the >> >>Declaration of Independence, P.M. Ashburn wrote in his " History of the >> >>Medical Department of the U.S. Army " , " By virtue of his social and >> >>professional prominence, his position as teacher and his facile pen, >> >> Rush had more influence upon American medicine and was more >>potent >> >>in the propagation and long perpetuation of medical errors than any man >>of >> >>his day. To him more than to any man in America, was due the great >>vogue >>of >> >>vomits, purging, and especially of bleeding, salivation and blistering, >> >>which blackened the record of medicine and afflicted the sick almost to >>the >> >>time of the Civil War. " >> >> >> >>On the cold, windy afternoon of December 14, 1799, a horse ridden by 37 >>year >> >>old Dr. Elisha Cullen Dick galloped up the snow covered driveway of Mt. >> >>Vernon. He was of a " newer " school of medical thought than the two >>older >> >>doctors who were tending General Washington, and he had been summoned >>for >>a >> >>more collective opinion. When Dr. Dick arrived the General had already >>been >> >>bled three times. " He needs all of his strength--bleeding will diminish >> >>it. " was the iconoclastic young doctor's opinion. His advice was not >>taken >> >>by the two veteran bleeders, Dr. Craik and Dr. Brown. Washington was >>bled >> >>for the fourth time. He died that evening. Craik later wrote Brown >>that >> >>they should have listened to Dick. Had they " taken no more blood from >>him, >> >>our good friend might have been alive now. But we were governed by the >>best >> >>light we had; we thought we were right, and so we are justified. " >> >> >> >> >> >> " It is error alone which needs the support of government. Truth can >>stand >> >>by itself. " >> >> >> >> Jefferson >> >>Notes on the State of Virginia (1781) >> >> >> >>http://www.aracnet.com/~atheism/hist/jeff0283.htm >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>______________________________________________________ >> >> >> >>------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >>Imagine a credit card with a 0% Intro APR and Instant Approval >> >>It seems impossible, but its not. Visit GetSmart.coms Credit Card >> >>Finder and click on instant approval cards right now at >> >>http://clickhere./click/1272 >> >> >> >> >> >>-- Easily schedule meetings and events using the group calendar! >> >>-- /cal?listname=12-step-free & m=1 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > >> >--== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==-- >> >Share what you know. Learn what you don't. >> > >> >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >Dont have the time or patience to search for unique >> >products & services? Then click to let us find them for you. >> >You Request, We Respond. http://clickhere./click/1957 >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >-- Check out your group's private Chat room >> >-- /ChatPage?listName=12-step-free & m=1 >> > >> > >> >> >>------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>GRAB THE GATOR! FREE SOFTWARE DOES ALL THE TYPING FOR YOU! >>Gator fills in forms and remembers passwords with NO TYPING at over >>100,000 web sites! Get $100 in coupons for trying Gator! >>http://clickhere./click/2092 >> >>eGroups.com Home: /group/12-step-free/ >> - Simplifying group communications >> >> > >______________________________________________________ > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >Accurate impartial advice on everything from laptops to tablesaws. >http://clickhere./click/1701 > > > >-- Talk to your group with your own voice! >-- /VoiceChatPage?listName=12-step-free & m=1 > > > --== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==-- Share what you know. Learn what you don't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 17, 1999 Report Share Posted December 17, 1999 Thanks Tommy for a brilliant post. I think I'll use the C.S. quote as my sig file! It's hilarious that the stepper fundies would dare to cite Rush. This guy expressed the view that being black was a form of leprosy, and that white people should avoid black in order not to catch it! Another " diagnosis " of the day was applied to slaves, that of having a chronic tendency to run away! Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 17, 1999 Report Share Posted December 17, 1999 " pete watts " wrote: original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=10501 > Thanks Tommy for a brilliant post. I think I'll use the C.S. > quote as my sig file! > > It's hilarious that the stepper fundies would dare to cite Rush. This > guy expressed the view that being black was a form of leprosy, and that > white people should avoid black in order not to catch it! > > Another " diagnosis " of the day was applied to slaves, that of having a > chronic tendency to run away! > > Pete Thanks Pete, The quote comes from " The Humanitarian Theory of Punishment. " I've looked for it on the net but no luck. Written in 1949, it was ahead of its time in my opinion. It's available in a book of his essays called " God in the Dock. " Thanks, Tommy > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 17, 1999 Report Share Posted December 17, 1999 " tommy perkins " wrote: original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=10503 > The quote comes from " The Humanitarian Theory of Punishment. " > I've looked for it on the net but no luck. Written in 1949, it was > ahead of its time in my opinion. It's available in a book of his > essays called " God in the Dock. " If he expresses ideas like this, then he's light years ahead of his time. When that quote starts popping up on the addiction professional lists I'm on, the steppers are going to be well pissed... P. (Realizing I have just invented a mid-Atlantic idiom, " well pissed " ). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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