Re: Visualize a daisy..............

[Guest guest]

Bartholomy Storm wrote:

> On an AA mailing list I am momentarily engaged in a

> discussion about the problems atheists and agnostics

> have in AA with the religious concepts of HP and the

> steps.

> " And if you want to visualise a daisy, talk and pray

> to it, and call that your Higher Power, you go right

> ahead and do that if it works for you.

What those intellectual luncheon meats fail to realize is that to an

athiest/agnostic, the whole idea of praying to a God makes about as much

sense as reading Shakespeare to a can of Spam. Hmmmmmm Spam. Spam would

make a good higher power. At least you could eat it after you got done

praying to it. Then you could call your sponsor, and tell him you got

angry at God so you ate him.

[Guest guest]

> But then I remembered one of the first AA meetings I

> attended, there was an American woman who told me I

> could choose a 'doorknob' as my Higher Power.

>

> Daisies and doorknobs, what is next ?

>

> Bart.

>

Hello Bart -

That is nothing new, believe me. I have been told to make a friggen TREE my

higher power and I can't even remember what other kind of lunatic

suggestions.

When push comes to shove, they really want you to think of THEM as your

higher power. I have heard that one, too.

" if you have a problem visualizing a h.p. just think of the " group " as your

h.p. "

Yeh right - 99% of them went back to drugging and drinking...what a helluva

'higher power' that is.

~Trixxi

[Guest guest]

the thing this idiot doesn't get is if your an atheist there is no god

of your understanding! not in ANY form! geez, if i dont believe in a

big old man (or woman:) up on a cloud deciding my fate in sobriety, why

would i want a freaking daisy to do it? the whole god as you understand

him is complete horse shit, its a device to humor non believers long

enough to get them to stay.

i would counter if they were AA about sobriety and not about god, why

god was even in steps to begin with, in whatever form he may take, and

that they are really looking for moronic excuses to denie the fact

they are inherently religious. as far as i am concerned its a

institionalized lack of honesty and self awareness on their parts which

is borders on intentional deception.

dave

=?iso-8859-1?q?bartholomy=20storm?= wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=10364

> Hi folks,

>

> On an AA mailing list I am momentarily engaged in a

> discussion about the problems atheists and agnostics

> have in AA with the religious concepts of HP and the

> steps. This often results in interesting reactions

> from the steppers.

>

> A list member joined in the discussion with the

> following comment:

>

> " And if you want to visualise a daisy, talk and pray

> to it, and call that your Higher Power, you go right

> ahead and do that if it works for you. All too often,

> people new to AA and sobriety look for excuses and

> reasons to run from the program and " the religion

> thing " is often all too convenient an excuse.

> -It's right there in Step Three:

> Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to

> the care of God, A GOD OF OUR OWN UNDERSTANDING. "

>

> First I thought: " That guy must be joking, talk and

> pray to a daisy?!? " Does he take me for an imbecile ?

>

> But then I remembered one of the first AA meetings I

> attended, there was an American woman who told me I

> could choose a 'doorknob' as my Higher Power.

>

> Daisies and doorknobs, what is next ?

>

> Bart.

>

>

>

>

>

>

> __________________________________________________

>

[Guest guest]

I pissed a bunch of steppers off by asking questions like: " I'm

supposed to say my Third Step prayer to a doorknob? " Matter o'fact,

I've been in a heated debate with the evil stepmothers in the about.com

alcoholism forum for the last few days, in the message thread about the

recent Supreme Court ruling. One guy I've been arguing with is kind of

the smug smarmy guru of the bunch. You can just see the dude with one

of those serene smirks on his face. Anyway, he kept asking me why I was

so angry at AA and finally I just let him have it both barrels --

mentioning my junkie acquaintance who hanged himself a month ago and

throwing in the ridiculous tale of Jen's husband to boot. The next post

from the dude, he says he " sees no point in continuing " the discussion

because I'm obviously a ranting, raving psycho. Perhaps, perhaps. But,

egotist that I am, I prefer to think that I ripped him a new one

(extraneous anus).

Well, I know this is incredibly narcissistic of me, but some days I

just feel like I'm channeling Dr. 's ghost. He loved his coffee

and a good argument as much as I do. Plus he was a major slob like me.

On the other hand, he couldn't abide atheists. So maybe I'm just

channeling the Great Cornolio. But then again, Beavis is pretty

religious as well. I suspect the real reason is that I let my Paxil Rx

lapse a few days and I'm just as manic as a poodle on crystal meth.

" Do not make my bunghole angry! " -- Cornolio.

[Guest guest]

HaaaaahaaaaheeeeheeeHoooooHooooo!!

Oh , that is the BEST use of SPAM I've heard of ever!!!

john hollister wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=10368

> Bartholomy Storm wrote:

>

> > On an AA mailing list I am momentarily engaged in a

> > discussion about the problems atheists and agnostics

> > have in AA with the religious concepts of HP and the

> > steps.

> > " And if you want to visualise a daisy, talk and pray

> > to it, and call that your Higher Power, you go right

> > ahead and do that if it works for you.

>

> What those intellectual luncheon meats fail to realize is that to an

> athiest/agnostic, the whole idea of praying to a God makes about as

much

> sense as reading Shakespeare to a can of Spam. Hmmmmmm Spam. Spam

would

> make a good higher power. At least you could eat it after you got done

> praying to it. Then you could call your sponsor, and tell him you got

> angry at God so you ate him.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hey Jim,

If it's Paxil you need, I got plenty. My Dr. gave me an RX. I took

one and I didn't like the way it made me feel-Where do I send it?

" jim hankins " wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=10369

> I pissed a bunch of steppers off by asking questions like: " I'm

> supposed to say my Third Step prayer to a doorknob? " Matter o'fact,

> I've been in a heated debate with the evil stepmothers in the

about.com

> alcoholism forum for the last few days, in the message thread about

the

> recent Supreme Court ruling. One guy I've been arguing with is kind of

> the smug smarmy guru of the bunch. You can just see the dude with one

> of those serene smirks on his face. Anyway, he kept asking me why I

was

> so angry at AA and finally I just let him have it both barrels --

> mentioning my junkie acquaintance who hanged himself a month ago and

> throwing in the ridiculous tale of Jen's husband to boot. The next

post

> from the dude, he says he " sees no point in continuing " the discussion

> because I'm obviously a ranting, raving psycho. Perhaps, perhaps. But,

> egotist that I am, I prefer to think that I ripped him a new one

> (extraneous anus).

>

> Well, I know this is incredibly narcissistic of me, but some days I

> just feel like I'm channeling Dr. 's ghost. He loved his coffee

> and a good argument as much as I do. Plus he was a major slob like me.

> On the other hand, he couldn't abide atheists. So maybe I'm just

> channeling the Great Cornolio. But then again, Beavis is pretty

> religious as well. I suspect the real reason is that I let my Paxil Rx

> lapse a few days and I'm just as manic as a poodle on crystal meth.

>

> " Do not make my bunghole angry! " -- Cornolio.

>

[Guest guest]

i have been in a discussion with some aa aplogists on lifering fourm

past day. its a good fourm, used to be SOS which i respect. there are

jsut some people who dont understand why its is nessecary to speak out

about the truths and decpetions of AA, especially in other groups. why

cant we let aa be and not bash it?

i think its critical becuase is only way people who leave AA can meet

and learn they werent alone in abuses that aa perpetrate. i also belive

if you are honest about what aa does in there group, it may be less

likely to re-occure in new groups. and to top it of its hard enough to

have to recover from drinking, but to be burderned with cult recovery

is doubly hard.

here is my latest post

Forum: the LifeRing Recovery Forum

Subject: God is not a peer

From: (DMARCOOT)

To: (BCKWOODLEN)

DateTime: 12/14/99 12:47:03 PM

i dont belive speaking of truth of aa will change anything inside of aa

either, its a group designed to resist outside influences.

But it can help those who left aa who were damaged by the experince

and let people who arent in program, or just going in, or thsoe send

people to it, know that is NOT the only solution or even what aa

steppers say it is.

its a belief system that takes its toll and does damage on those who

are in thier group and dont conform to its doctrine. i have met many

people in last 3 years who have to discuss its flaws in order to shake

its negative brainwashing out after being in aa for years. it helps

these people (myself included) to be honest about these experinces. to

not be vocal is to sit back and give a silent vote of approval and act

like the emotional, psyscological and spiritual absues we experinced

didnt happen.

AA teaches everyone who walks in its does how to be dependent on group

and HP, but the most basic of skills of sobreity; self repect and self

reliance are frowned upon and attacked as excessive ego and lack of

humility. and i dont believe in aa, its deceptive organization. i dont

need to repect it anymore than the belief system of heavens gate or

scientology, because it has nothing to do with sobriety but rather

conversion to a belief system of a lesser self.

some people have said to me, & quot;well aa got you sober & quot; well

actualy no it didnt. i got myself sober when i was tired of trying to

destroy myself. i went into aa when i was ready to stop doing that, i

would have gone into rr, sos or 7 eleven if i was told that was place

to go and done just as well. my sobreity is my repsonsibilty and

credit, something i couldnt say aloud in ANY aa meeting without being

scolded for & quot;doing it alone & quot;, or brandishing a ego or some

other nonesense. aa is a group which teaches self helplessness. what

kind of self help group teaches people if you leave them, you will

destroy yourself? or if you were raped to & quot;look for your part in

it? & quot;

bottom line is no one forces you or anyone to join into this thread

anymore than i must join into a thread on the postives aa may have. nor

will one little thread on destructive aspects off aa tarnish liferings

respectability if it has soemthing to offer. self censorship,

repsression and lack of openess and honesty is more of a blemish to any

group

----------

" jim hankins " wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=10369

> I pissed a bunch of steppers off by asking questions like: " I'm

> supposed to say my Third Step prayer to a doorknob? " Matter o'fact,

> I've been in a heated debate with the evil stepmothers in the

about.com

> alcoholism forum for the last few days, in the message thread about

the

> recent Supreme Court ruling. One guy I've been arguing with is kind of

> the smug smarmy guru of the bunch. You can just see the dude with one

> of those serene smirks on his face. Anyway, he kept asking me why I

was

> so angry at AA and finally I just let him have it both barrels --

> mentioning my junkie acquaintance who hanged himself a month ago and

> throwing in the ridiculous tale of Jen's husband to boot. The next

post

> from the dude, he says he " sees no point in continuing " the discussion

> because I'm obviously a ranting, raving psycho. Perhaps, perhaps. But,

> egotist that I am, I prefer to think that I ripped him a new one

> (extraneous anus).

>

> Well, I know this is incredibly narcissistic of me, but some days I

> just feel like I'm channeling Dr. 's ghost. He loved his coffee

> and a good argument as much as I do. Plus he was a major slob like me.

> On the other hand, he couldn't abide atheists. So maybe I'm just

> channeling the Great Cornolio. But then again, Beavis is pretty

> religious as well. I suspect the real reason is that I let my Paxil Rx

> lapse a few days and I'm just as manic as a poodle on crystal meth.

>

> " Do not make my bunghole angry! " -- Cornolio.

>

[Guest guest]

I agree with you absolutely. In addressing a group of student nurses on

behalf of AA my colleague suggested we play down the God bit. We avoided it

absolutely; at the time I thought it was disingenuous but good sense. My

colleague believes in the incurable disease concept however, and so the need

for an HP and does not realise the blatant dishonesty of denying the

cornerstone and centrepiece of AA recovery. Simon here we come.

> i would counter if they were AA about sobriety and not about god, why

> god was even in steps to begin with, in whatever form he may take, and

> that they are really looking for moronic excuses to denie the fact

> they are inherently religious. as far as i am concerned its a

> institionalized lack of honesty and self awareness on their parts which

> is borders on intentional deception.

>

> dave

[Guest guest]

" Our Spam Who Art In Heaven, Hallowed Be Thy Name........ "

>

>Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

>To: 12-step-freeeGroups

>Subject: Re: Visualize a daisy..............

>Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 11:30:22 -0800

>

>HaaaaahaaaaheeeeheeeHoooooHooooo!!

>Oh , that is the BEST use of SPAM I've heard of ever!!!

>

>

>

>john hollister wrote:

>original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=10368

> > Bartholomy Storm wrote:

> >

> > > On an AA mailing list I am momentarily engaged in a

> > > discussion about the problems atheists and agnostics

> > > have in AA with the religious concepts of HP and the

> > > steps.

> > > " And if you want to visualise a daisy, talk and pray

> > > to it, and call that your Higher Power, you go right

> > > ahead and do that if it works for you.

> >

> > What those intellectual luncheon meats fail to realize is that to an

> > athiest/agnostic, the whole idea of praying to a God makes about as

>much

> > sense as reading Shakespeare to a can of Spam. Hmmmmmm Spam. Spam

>would

> > make a good higher power. At least you could eat it after you got done

> > praying to it. Then you could call your sponsor, and tell him you got

> > angry at God so you ate him.

> >

> >

>

>

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>Sign up for Brodia's free online shopping service, you can find

>products, locate the lowest prices, and check out with a single

>click. Enjoy special offers valued over $1,000.

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>

>

>

>

>

>

>-- Talk to your group with your own voice!

>-- /VoiceChatPage?listName=12-step-free & m=1

>

>

______________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

what make even more insidious what the playing down of god not to scare

em off you describe happens everywhere! the 12- steps were rewritten in

same manner. even the mention of god around newcomers is hushed. i

remember one after meeting discussion with a newcomer and someone was

talking about god as their HP, and one " elder " gave him this look to

shush. where is the rigorous honesty they claim?

if the man's HP is god, fine. if your program is religious, fine. just

don't tell me it isn't when it is. i abhor the upfront dishonesty to

the very people they claim to be trying to save.

i think its in big book, we agnostic where its says something to effect

that atheist and agnostics are incapable of being honest with

themselves because they don't accept god or Hp. and of course there is

the advise to newcomer's who don't have a Hp to " fake it till you make

it " which makes it clear that having a HP is a goal. gee i thought not

drinking and living a healthy life was goal. it would seem someone is

being dishonest with themselves indeed, but aint the atheists and

agnostics.....

another point which shouldn't be overlooked is Bill w. took i think

half of the steps straight from Oxford Group (which still exists, look

em up on web) , including steps 1-3. the oxford group had no confusion

about god or hp, it was god all the way.

also a point of curiosity, why isn't lords prayer changed to Hp's

prayer? who would be offended in non religious AA by changing of name

of the christian god's reference in a christian prayer? must be too

much to ask of the real implied AA HP to change his name.

dave

" krakatoa " wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=10379

> I agree with you absolutely. In addressing a group of student nurses

on

> behalf of AA my colleague suggested we play down the God bit. We

avoided it

> absolutely; at the time I thought it was disingenuous but good sense.

My

> colleague believes in the incurable disease concept however, and so

the need

> for an HP and does not realise the blatant dishonesty of denying the

> cornerstone and centrepiece of AA recovery. Simon here we come.

>

> > i would counter if they were AA about sobriety and not about god,

why

> > god was even in steps to begin with, in whatever form he may take,

and

> > that they are really looking for moronic excuses to denie the fact

> > they are inherently religious. as far as i am concerned its a

> > institionalized lack of honesty and self awareness on their parts

which

> > is borders on intentional deception.

> >

> > dave

>

>

[Guest guest]

" wendy rose " wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=10371

> Hey Jim,

> If it's Paxil you need, I got plenty. My Dr. gave me an RX. I took

> one and I didn't like the way it made me feel-Where do I send it?

>

>

> Hi , it'd be great if you could send me some. A month's supply

sets me back about $75. If you want to mail 'em: Jim Hankins, 7765

Dinsdale St., Downey, CA 90240. And yes, I have a legitimate Rx with at

least one month of refills on it.

[Guest guest]

" dave " wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=10372

>

> i have been in a discussion with some aa aplogists on lifering fourm

> past day. its a good fourm, used to be SOS which i respect. there are

> jsut some people who dont understand why its is nessecary to speak out

> about the truths and decpetions of AA, especially in other groups. why

> cant we let aa be and not bash it?

>

Bravo Dave!

Love it!

Apple

[Guest guest]

" sue styd " wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=10382

>

> " Our Spam Who Art In Heaven, Hallowed Be Thy Name........ "

>

>

> " Spam, grant me the serenity.... "

" The Spam is my shepherd.... " (whoa, that sounds like someone put his

dog in a meat grinder!)

" May the Spam be with you! "

" What Spam has joined together, let no man tear asunder. "

" Hare, Hare Spam-a. "

" Thou shalt have no other canned meats before me. "

" There are no vegetarians in foxholes. "

" Hail Spam, full of grease, blessed art thou... "

" In Spam we trust "

" ...Spam, as we understood It... "

" Only two things you need to know, newcomer: There is a Spam and you're

not It! "

" My Spam, my Spam, why have you forsaken me? "

" Spaminus vobiscum "

[Guest guest]

thanks apple :•)

" apple " wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=10389

> " dave " wrote:

> original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=103

72

> >

> > i have been in a discussion with some aa aplogists on lifering fourm

> > past day. its a good fourm, used to be SOS which i respect. there

are

> > jsut some people who dont understand why its is nessecary to speak

out

> > about the truths and decpetions of AA, especially in other groups.

why

> > cant we let aa be and not bash it?

> >

>

> Bravo Dave!

> Love it!

> Apple

>

[Guest guest]

Consider it done! I'll be sending it out in the next couple of

days-hang in there!

" jim hankins " wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=10387

> " wendy rose " wrote:

> original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=103

71

> > Hey Jim,

> > If it's Paxil you need, I got plenty. My Dr. gave me an RX. I took

> > one and I didn't like the way it made me feel-Where do I send it?

> >

> >

> > Hi , it'd be great if you could send me some. A month's supply

> sets me back about $75. If you want to mail 'em: Jim Hankins, 7765

> Dinsdale St., Downey, CA 90240. And yes, I have a legitimate Rx with

at

> least one month of refills on it.

>

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 12/14/99 11:56:09 AM Central Standard Time,

bart_storm@... writes:

> Hi folks,

>

> On an AA mailing list I am momentarily engaged in a

> discussion about the problems atheists and agnostics

> have in AA with the religious concepts of HP and the

> steps. This often results in interesting reactions

> from the steppers.

>

> A list member joined in the discussion with the

> following comment:

>

> " And if you want to visualise a daisy, talk and pray

> to it, and call that your Higher Power, you go right

> ahead and do that if it works for you. All too often,

> people new to AA and sobriety look for excuses and

> reasons to run from the program and " the religion

> thing " is often all too convenient an excuse.

> -It's right there in Step Three:

> Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to

> the care of God, A GOD OF OUR OWN UNDERSTANDING. "

>

> First I thought: " That guy must be joking, talk and

> pray to a daisy?!? " Does he take me for an imbecile ?

>

> But then I remembered one of the first AA meetings I

> attended, there was an American woman who told me I

> could choose a 'doorknob' as my Higher Power.

>

> Daisies and doorknobs, what is next ?

>

> Bart.

>

Hi Bart, I'll tell you what's next---total insanity! Why are you on

an AA mailing list? There is NO way to reason with step-zombies. One Hospital

I was in was especially fond of recommending that patients use the " number

xxx " bus that ran down the street near the hospital as their " higher power " .

My point is that steppers will use almost any illogical " suggestion " in

order to promote their sick way of thinking.

AA is nothing more than a pyramid scheme that preys on people that are

usually in deep doo-doo and will listen to anything.

Unc

[Guest guest]

Bart,

The only thing you are *not* allowed to draw on for power is

self-reliance.

Pete

> But then I remembered one of the first AA meetings I

> attended, there was an American woman who told me I

> could choose a 'doorknob' as my Higher Power.

>

> Daisies and doorknobs, what is next ?

>

> Bart.

>

>

>

>

>

>

> __________________________________________________

>

[Guest guest]

butterbean-@... wrote:

> That is nothing new, believe me. I have been told to make a friggen

TREE my

> higher power and I can't even remember what other kind of lunatic

> suggestions.

Use of a tree as a Higher Power/God (the Steps from 3 onwards

specifically say God) was actually given to me on the official

addictions division of the American Psychological Association list,

APADiv50-forum, as *proof that AAS was not religious*. I kid you not.

> When push comes to shove, they really want you to think of THEM as

your

> higher power. I have heard that one, too.

> " if you have a problem visualizing a h.p. just think of the " group "

as your

> h.p. "

That is specifically given in the 12 & 12. However, it is clear that

even this is really just a " bait and switch " . Later talks

about some members " still clinging on to the group as their Higher

Power " .

P.

[Guest guest]

" dave " wrote:

>

> i would counter if they were AA about sobriety and not about god, why

> god was even in steps to begin with, in whatever form he may take, and

> that they are really looking for moronic excuses to denie the fact

> they are inherently religious. as far as i am concerned its a

> institionalized lack of honesty and self awareness on their parts

which

> is borders on intentional deception.

Absolutely Dave. AA is riddled with deceit and deception, but mostly it

serves to deceive themselves - after all, they started out as " We

Agnostics " in the beginning to. As for the rehab runners, no-one can

possibly believe that genetic disease horseshit. It's just a device to

try to ignore the psychosocial causes of addiction, as well to avoid

considering controlled drinking meethods.

P.

[Guest guest]

john hollister wrote:

> What those intellectual luncheon meats fail to realize is that to an

> athiest/agnostic, the whole idea of praying to a God makes about as

much

> sense as reading Shakespeare to a can of Spam. Hmmmmmm Spam. Spam

would

> make a good higher power. At least you could eat it after you got done

> praying to it. Then you could call your sponsor, and tell him you got

> angry at God so you ate him.

Nice idea - especially in Overeaters Anonymous!

P.

[Guest guest]

Hey Jim,

You're cracking me up. I like to think I'm channelling Winston

Churchill. He was a slob who smoked and drank too much and was often

prey to his " Black DOg " of depression - but my God, was he a great

Statesman and wit.

Btw, get your Paxil Rx filled right now. It has an " interesting

withdrawal syndrome " as a neurologist put it - I know, been there done

that - not at all nice.

Best,

P.

" jim hankins " wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=10369

> I pissed a bunch of steppers off by asking questions like: " I'm

> supposed to say my Third Step prayer to a doorknob? " Matter o'fact,

> I've been in a heated debate with the evil stepmothers in the

about.com

> alcoholism forum for the last few days, in the message thread about

the

> recent Supreme Court ruling. One guy I've been arguing with is kind of

> the smug smarmy guru of the bunch. You can just see the dude with one

> of those serene smirks on his face. Anyway, he kept asking me why I

was

> so angry at AA and finally I just let him have it both barrels --

> mentioning my junkie acquaintance who hanged himself a month ago and

> throwing in the ridiculous tale of Jen's husband to boot. The next

post

> from the dude, he says he " sees no point in continuing " the discussion

> because I'm obviously a ranting, raving psycho. Perhaps, perhaps. But,

> egotist that I am, I prefer to think that I ripped him a new one

> (extraneous anus).

>

> Well, I know this is incredibly narcissistic of me, but some days I

> just feel like I'm channeling Dr. 's ghost. He loved his coffee

> and a good argument as much as I do. Plus he was a major slob like me.

> On the other hand, he couldn't abide atheists. So maybe I'm just

> channeling the Great Cornolio. But then again, Beavis is pretty

> religious as well. I suspect the real reason is that I let my Paxil Rx

> lapse a few days and I'm just as manic as a poodle on crystal meth.

>

> " Do not make my bunghole angry! " -- Cornolio.

>

[Guest guest]

Yikes!

This is in Scotland?

Remember me to Mrs Crombie...

(This is a very obscure joke abt alcohol research that probably no-one

will get, just my whimsy.)

P.

" krakatoa " wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=10379

> I agree with you absolutely. In addressing a group of student nurses

on

> behalf of AA my colleague suggested we play down the God bit. We

avoided it

> absolutely; at the time I thought it was disingenuous but good sense.

My

> colleague believes in the incurable disease concept however, and so

the need

> for an HP and does not realise the blatant dishonesty of denying the

> cornerstone and centrepiece of AA recovery. Simon here we come.

>

> > i would counter if they were AA about sobriety and not about god,

why

> > god was even in steps to begin with, in whatever form he may take,

and

> > that they are really looking for moronic excuses to denie the fact

> > they are inherently religious. as far as i am concerned its a

> > institionalized lack of honesty and self awareness on their parts

which

> > is borders on intentional deception.

> >

> > dave

>

>

[Guest guest]

" pete watts " wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=10513

> Hey Jim,

>

> You're cracking me up. I like to think I'm channelling Winston

> Churchill. He was a slob who smoked and drank too much and was often

> prey to his " Black DOg " of depression - but my God, was he a great

> Statesman and wit.

>

> Btw, get your Paxil Rx filled right now. It has an " interesting

> withdrawal syndrome " as a neurologist put it - I know, been there done

> that - not at all nice.

>

> Best,

> P.

>

> I've calmed down a lot since I got my Paxil refilled. It was getting

a bit on the unpleasant side after a couple of days. I do like the

strange dreams it gives me when I quit taking it. One time I dreamed I

was being haunted by an incredibly sexy but evil female ghost. She was

dynamite in bed. Then I found out she was one of those evil alternative

deities mentioned in the Old Testament. Don't remember her name. But I

asked her if she knew Satan or any other evil gods or goddesses and she

went into this long, hilarious diatribe about some Akkadian fertility

goddess she couldn't stand. She made fun of the other goddess for

having small breasts! Eventually through a collaboration of federal law

enforcement agents and my dead grandmother, the demonic sex goddess was

arrested. Her punishment was confinement for eternity in a tiny locked

box and get this -- the only thing in there with her is a printed copy

of her 4th Step Inventory, taken by someone else, of course, because

she's obviously too nasty to do it herself. Maybe I should have made

her my higher power! She's been in a series of dreams, but I haven't

seen her since she got locked up. Of course I still have the nightmares

where I'm back in college and have forgotten to go to calculus class

all semester, then get a note from the prof saying: " Where have you

been all this time? The final's tomorrow. " Every time I have this dream

I remember all the other times I did the same thing and often wonder if

my grade-point average isn't abysmally low by now.

[Guest guest]

Pete: In National Lampoon many years ago they did a thing where they

compiled a bunch of the witty anecdotes attributed to Churchill by

changing the endings so he said something incredibly crude. Like, " If

you were my wife I'd beat the crap out of you. "

[Guest guest]

Must say Jim you have a lot more interesting withdrawal dreams than me,

though mine werent bad. They turned into sort of amazing acid trips,

where all semblance of normal physical reality completely broke down

and instead I was treated to an incredible display of 3D fractals all

swirling about and coalescing like multi-color molten cheese. The money

I'd make if I could make a vid of that!

I get similar " back to school " dreams too. Also the occupational hazard

of actors, that one is just about to go on stage and havent the

faintest idea what one's lines are.

I'm having a mild withdraawal from a different antidep right now, and

the knowledge that I would be eating Vegan the following day produced a

" Twilight Zone " type movie dream where the world was taken over by

giant carrots I had unfortunately bred to grow large. As their

creator, they viewed me as a kind of political threat to be destroyed.

While trying to keep my identity secret, I frequented the now

carrot-ruled London, who had replaced all signs with ones in the

unpronounceable carrot language. I entered one of the compulsory eating

places for us human proles, where what we could eat was strictly

controlled to ensure it was both Vegan *and* carrot free and also did

not include any other root vegetables who were considered carrot

kinsman. Needless to say, what remained of the human population had

grown painfully thin on what little fare remained, and it was rumoured

the carrots were getting even fatter rounding ppl up to eat them. What

I saw on my plate did indeed look surprisingly like the seaweed splodge

I was offered the following day. This time however, the seaweed

recognized me as the much-hunted political dissident I was, bulged

upwards, and grew two armns with which it proceeded to strangle me.

I think I rather prefer my usual somnolent viewing:

Endless re-runs of the sexual, phyiscal, and emotional abuse of my

childhood.

P.

" jim hankins " wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=10520

> > I've calmed down a lot since I got my Paxil refilled. It was getting

> a bit on the unpleasant side after a couple of days. I do like the

> strange dreams it gives me when I quit taking it. One time I dreamed I

> was being haunted by an incredibly sexy but evil female ghost. She was

> dynamite in bed. Then I found out she was one of those evil

alternative

> deities mentioned in the Old Testament. Don't remember her name. But I

> asked her if she knew Satan or any other evil gods or goddesses and

she

> went into this long, hilarious diatribe about some Akkadian fertility

> goddess she couldn't stand. She made fun of the other goddess for

> having small breasts! Eventually through a collaboration of federal

law

> enforcement agents and my dead grandmother, the demonic sex goddess

was

> arrested. Her punishment was confinement for eternity in a tiny locked

> box and get this -- the only thing in there with her is a printed copy

> of her 4th Step Inventory, taken by someone else, of course, because

> she's obviously too nasty to do it herself. Maybe I should have made

> her my higher power! She's been in a series of dreams, but I haven't

> seen her since she got locked up. Of course I still have the

nightmares

> where I'm back in college and have forgotten to go to calculus class

> all semester, then get a note from the prof saying: " Where have you

> been all this time? The final's tomorrow. " Every time I have this

dream

> I remember all the other times I did the same thing and often wonder

if

> my grade-point average isn't abysmally low by now.

>