Re: wally-shame/ treatmentI got

[Guest guest]

At 15:25 06/12/99 -0800, you wrote:

> The 2nd time was brutal. I had a roomate who snored

>very loudly and told me she had a habit of

>sleepwalking, the last episode being with a kitchen

>knife in her hand. I tried earplugs, a fan, nothing

>worked. I could NOT get to sleep. After a week of this

>I asked permission in group to go sleep on the couch

>in the dusty basement. They did NOT believe me that

>she snored, they said I had it in for her for some

>other reason. Another week later of no sleep I was

> " allowed " to go sleep in the clammy basement.

>

> Several times different women would yell and scream

>at me in group for 5 minutes straight for God knows

>what. I was supposed to sit there and take it and the

>staff did nothing. the staff said " We are not

>concerned with your comfort " and " Throw yourself at

>the mercy of the group " . They were not interested in

>helping me when I went to them for help bawling my

>eyes out.(I am not a person who cries easily or

>often).

>

> Wally says " I don't doubt that the shame you felt

>was deliberately induced by the staff, as standard

>operating procedure. Shame is the name of the game-

>it's that simple. "

>

> Thanks Wally. I still have trouble believing that

>anyone could be that deliberately cruel. I remember

>the sick grins on their faces.

>

> Wally says " However, your treatment/NA experiences

>don't necessarily have anything to do with your real

>feelings about yourself. "

> That's what f-ed me up so much I guess is the huge

>gap between how I see myself(OK) and how the treatment

>centre did(A piece of shit).

>

> Anyhow, thanks for answering and sorry I took so

>long.

>

> Kim

Hi Kim. It is an extraordinary story. I know of group therapy type

situations where the professional in charge simply doesn't behave

responsibly- but my own experience of this has been that it was more out of

ineptness and ignorance rather than malice. Your experience sounds like

highly malicious, deliberate psychological abuse. This treatment of you was

" scapegoating " . It is a well-known and obvious (or should be to any

qualified professional- hell even I know about it) pitfall of group therapy

situations- the group picking on and dumping on one individual. This is

what the group facilitator is supposedly there to prevent, and in any

healthy therapy group they would do so. The family systems theory talks

about this scapegoating happening in families- where one person (usually a

child) is made to " carry " the problem, and that person becomes the " black

sheep " , and carries the visible manifestation of the psychological problems

for the whole family. I was the " problem child " in my family. But what is

so extraordinary is that there is no conceivable intellectual justification

for this type of abuse. If the purpose of the group confrontation of one

individual is to make them more aware of their own denial (I don't really

believe in all that any more but never mind, that's hardly the point

anyway) then there is some logic to giving someone some feedback, about

their behaviour, their substance abuse, their attitude to abstinence, or

whatever. That could conceivably be argued to constitute an element of the

" treatment " that was being provided. Where I was in treatment this is what

actually happened, and no-one was screamed at for minutes on end.

[Actually I was screamed at once, but in a rather different situation. On

entering treatment I was already a junior know-it-all stepper who had been

to 40 meetings and had got clean beforehand and I was (I can understand

this very well now!) unbearable to some of the other residents. One guy, a

doctor who was in there for " alcoholism " actually questioned the prevailing

disease philosophy and wasn't gung ho about the program- and I criticised

him for this. (Hey, this is like doing a 5th step in reverse!) He finally

came to the boil once in a group and shouted at me for a couple of minutes,

accusing me of " sitting there like a f**king sphinx " (I did do this, it's

true) and other forms of smugness. No-one said anything until he had

finished because he was normally rather mild-mannered and unpopular and

tended to stay quiet and this was an interesting departure for him, and so

I simply sat there like a slightly surprised sphinx along with everyone

else. No-one said anything about it and then we moved on and talked about

something else... It was pretty much the only time anyone shouted at anyone

the whole eight weeks I was there. I had an easy time in treatment, because

I already knew the basic ideas and went along with them at that time, and I

was almost certainly a pain in the ass. I don't know what happened to him-

I hope he is okay and I hope he retained his critical faculties a bit

better than I did.]

But anyway, that was a very easy-going treatment centre and confrontations

were generally done constructively if at all. This contrasts violently with

your own experience. I think that the sooner these places- all of them- are

either put out of business altogether, or brought under some effective

professional supervision, the better.

As for your recovery from that abuse, I do want to say that my earlier

suggestions were based on a superficial reading of your situation. Not that

cognitive techniques wouldn't be helpful, but there is a trauma there too.

Well its stating the obvious really, isn't it. I wish you the very best in

recovering from all of that. For the people who were in a position of

authority in that place, and whose responsibility it was to care for

vulnerable people and assist their healing process, it was irresponsible

and inhuman, to say the least.

Joe B.

[Guest guest]

Last 12-step torture chamber I was at we started " working on our issues "

right after breakfast and it went on like that until around NINE

THIRTY-TENISH AT NIGHT!!!!

They did allow us to eat. There was NO tv except for watching the BORING AS

HELL Father videos and Hazedon crapola. The work didn't even let up

on the weekends. They wouldn't even let us WATCH the friggen' news. Oh, we

did get a newspaper...one copy for the whole damn joint. So it was usually

mutilated by the time I had a few minutes to scan the headlines. And -yep-

that woman that tore into me like a wolf with rabies was also backed up by

another like minded woman and the staff SAID NOTHING about their attack on

me. Talk about 'carrying resentments' !!!!! Stupid staff person didn't

even ask me HOW I WAS FEELING...jeez...oh and I was supposed to carry a

" teddy bear " around with me all the time (retch!). If I didn't, I was

" ignoring my inner child " .

-gag-

~Trixxi

wally-shame/ " treatment " I got

>

> I was not made to wear a sign around my neck or shave

> my head, but...

>

> The first time I was there wasn't as bad. The only

> nasty thing they did was tell me I wasn't working hard

> enough at my recovery when I was putting in 6 hours a

> day. And once I had an assignment to act like I was 3

> years old for the day.( " Can you make me a sandwich,

> please? " " Could we go to the park? " )Talk about

> infantalizing cult members.

>

> The 2nd time was brutal. I had a roomate who snored

> very loudly and told me she had a habit of

> sleepwalking, the last episode being with a kitchen

> knife in her hand. I tried earplugs, a fan, nothing

> worked. I could NOT get to sleep. After a week of this

> I asked permission in group to go sleep on the couch

> in the dusty basement. They did NOT believe me that

> she snored, they said I had it in for her for some

> other reason. Another week later of no sleep I was

> " allowed " to go sleep in the clammy basement.

>

> Several times different women would yell and scream

> at me in group for 5 minutes straight for God knows

> what. I was supposed to sit there and take it and the

> staff did nothing. the staff said " We are not

> concerned with your comfort " and " Throw yourself at

> the mercy of the group " . They were not interested in

> helping me when I went to them for help bawling my

> eyes out.(I am not a person who cries easily or

> often).

>

> Wally says " I don't doubt that the shame you felt

> was deliberately induced by the staff, as standard

> operating procedure. Shame is the name of the game-

> it's that simple. "

>

> Thanks Wally. I still have trouble believing that

> anyone could be that deliberately cruel. I remember

> the sick grins on their faces.

>

> Wally says " However, your treatment/NA experiences

> don't necessarily have anything to do with your real

> feelings about yourself. "

> That's what f-ed me up so much I guess is the huge

> gap between how I see myself(OK) and how the treatment

> centre did(A piece of shit).

>

> Anyhow, thanks for answering and sorry I took so

> long.

>

> Kim

> __________________________________________________

>

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 12/6/99 5:29:18 PM Central Standard Time,

kimrh67@... writes:

> The 2nd time was brutal. I had a roomate who snored

> very loudly and told me she had a habit of

> sleepwalking, the last episode being with a kitchen

> knife in her hand. I tried earplugs, a fan, nothing

> worked. I could NOT get to sleep. After a week of this

> I asked permission in group to go sleep on the couch

> in the dusty basement. They did NOT believe me that

> she snored, they said I had it in for her for some

> other reason. Another week later of no sleep I was

> " allowed " to go sleep in the clammy basement.

Hi Kim, Reminds me of the time I was TX and the main room was situated in

the middle of patients rooms. sorta like a half circle. One idiot was prone

to bouncing a basketball off of the doors to these (my)

patients rooms. When I complained to the Psychiatrist who was the head of the

unit he responded---- " You're looking at yourself " . This is a favorite term of

psychobabblers.

Artie

[Guest guest]

Hi Kim,

Thanks for the feedback.

The last of my comments you quoted was a round-about way of saying, among

other things, that maybe something like cognitive therapy isn't the key.

(Even though I have found CBT very helpful in general.)

You mentioned somewhere that you had trouble feeling anger about your

experience. That might be important. I know I had an " anger " phase. Did

things like write it all out a few times. Read angry poetry (e. g.

Ginsburg's " Howl " ) out loud. This was 10 years ago, and it seemed like there

was absolutely nobody to talk about it with. Little had been written against

AA/treatment at the time, and there was no 12-step-free Zone!

And in AA/treatment they have this bizarre notion that anger, even if

justified, is bad and will magically get you drunk.

Then there was the problem of " complicity. " In treatment it's always " the

group " that does things, and in treatment I had played the game. Helped

" confront " people about their " denial " etc. It is harder to feel angry about

something that was done to you, if you participated (even passively!) in

doing it to others.

Btw, have you read " The Real AA " , by Ken Ragge (who happens to be the

founder of 12-step-free)? I don't agree with everything in the book, but the

discussions of the dynamics of treatment, brainwashing, and mind-control

were helpful to me.

--wally

PS: the writing you are doing here probably will help. Probably has helped.

Feels good to be able to say things like " I remember the sick grins on their

faces " , no?

wally-shame/ " treatment " I got

>

> I was not made to wear a sign around my neck or shave

>my head, but...

>

> The first time I was there wasn't as bad. The only

>nasty thing they did was tell me I wasn't working hard

>enough at my recovery when I was putting in 6 hours a

>day. And once I had an assignment to act like I was 3

>years old for the day.( " Can you make me a sandwich,

>please? " " Could we go to the park? " )Talk about

>infantalizing cult members.

>

> The 2nd time was brutal. I had a roomate who snored

>very loudly and told me she had a habit of

>sleepwalking, the last episode being with a kitchen

>knife in her hand. I tried earplugs, a fan, nothing

>worked. I could NOT get to sleep. After a week of this

>I asked permission in group to go sleep on the couch

>in the dusty basement. They did NOT believe me that

>she snored, they said I had it in for her for some

>other reason. Another week later of no sleep I was

> " allowed " to go sleep in the clammy basement.

>

> Several times different women would yell and scream

>at me in group for 5 minutes straight for God knows

>what. I was supposed to sit there and take it and the

>staff did nothing. the staff said " We are not

>concerned with your comfort " and " Throw yourself at

>the mercy of the group " . They were not interested in

>helping me when I went to them for help bawling my

>eyes out.(I am not a person who cries easily or

>often).

>

> Wally says " I don't doubt that the shame you felt

>was deliberately induced by the staff, as standard

>operating procedure. Shame is the name of the game-

>it's that simple. "

>

> Thanks Wally. I still have trouble believing that

>anyone could be that deliberately cruel. I remember

>the sick grins on their faces.

>

> Wally says " However, your treatment/NA experiences

>don't necessarily have anything to do with your real

>feelings about yourself. "

> That's what f-ed me up so much I guess is the huge

>gap between how I see myself(OK) and how the treatment

>centre did(A piece of shit).

>

> Anyhow, thanks for answering and sorry I took so

>long.

>

> Kim

[Guest guest]

This reminds me of when I was in an in-patient place, for awhile I had a

roomate who snored out of more than one hole; the odor would fill the room

and I lost night after night of sleep, on the edge of vomiting. I thought if

I flicked my lighter the room would explode. He was proud of his rectal

release problem, too; he would hang out with people and poot incessantly,

giggling and cackling the whole time about " having a contest. "

In a message dated 12/6/99 5:29:27 PM Central Standard Time,

kimrh67@... writes:

<<

The 2nd time was brutal. I had a roomate who snored

very loudly and told me she had a habit of

sleepwalking, the last episode being with a kitchen

knife in her hand. I tried earplugs, a fan, nothing

worked. I could NOT get to sleep. After a week of this

I asked permission in group to go sleep on the couch

in the dusty basement. They did NOT believe me that

she snored, they said I had it in for her for some

other reason. Another week later of no sleep I was

" allowed " to go sleep in the clammy basement.

>>

[Guest guest]

GGGGAAAAGGGGGGGG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Re: wally-shame/ " treatment " I got

> This reminds me of when I was in an in-patient place, for awhile I had a

> roomate who snored out of more than one hole; the odor would fill the room

> and I lost night after night of sleep, on the edge of vomiting. I thought

if

> I flicked my lighter the room would explode. He was proud of his rectal

> release problem, too; he would hang out with people and poot incessantly,

> giggling and cackling the whole time about " having a contest. "

>

> In a message dated 12/6/99 5:29:27 PM Central Standard Time,

> kimrh67@... writes:

>

> <<

> The 2nd time was brutal. I had a roomate who snored

> very loudly and told me she had a habit of

> sleepwalking, the last episode being with a kitchen

> knife in her hand. I tried earplugs, a fan, nothing

> worked. I could NOT get to sleep. After a week of this

> I asked permission in group to go sleep on the couch

> in the dusty basement. They did NOT believe me that

> she snored, they said I had it in for her for some

> other reason. Another week later of no sleep I was

> " allowed " to go sleep in the clammy basement.

> >>

>

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