Re: Need advice about my sister

[Guest guest]

Hi Jaye,

First of all, I'm sorry it seems that you may also have two people in your life

who are bpd.  That's rough.

I think the message is really clear--I don't want to talk about it.  It's not

really uncommon.  She may be ashamed of what she has done so she would like to

pretend it didn't happen.  The question then is what to do if she won't talk

about it.  You can still set boundaries even if she won't talk about the

incident.  Just figure out what they will be, what you are going to do, and then

do it.  She has chosen not to talk about it and so she has chosen to let what

you have to say be a complete surprise to her.  If she doesn't like it, she's

going to just have to be unhappy.

She really does not have to talk about it just because you want to, and she does

have the right not to talk about it even if she isn't going to like the results

and it would be a lot better if she did talk about it.  She's not going about it

in the best way, but she may not know a better way to tell you.

The question of whether to call or not is really about whether you want to talk

to her about anything, because she doesn't seem open to talking about this.  I

think she will hold a grudge if you don't call for a long time and somehow turn

it around in her head to you not speaking to her, but I don't know that that

should be a consideration.

If she is bpd, I wanted to point out the ways some of what you said to her was

invalidating.  She said she was going to ruin it and you wanted to cheer her up

(and give her a reality check) and so you told her she wouldn't.  That's

invalidating.  You can't very well tell her she's right, either--it's a

catch-22--but you could ask why she thinks she's going to ruin it.  It's not

possible to be validating all of the time, but it may be helpful to pay

attention to it.  Even if she is not bpd, neither of you probably got validated

very much as children--having had a bpd parent--and that lack of validation does

have an effect.

Best of luck,

Ashana

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[Guest guest]

You obviously miss your relationship with her, so I think you

should call her. I think she's made it clear to you that she's

not going to talk about what happened on your vacation though,

so I wouldn't bring that up when you call her. Maybe you can

talk about it at some later point, maybe not. Not talking about

it may be the price you have to pay to be on speaking terms with

her.

At 08:44 AM 04/25/2009 dianajaye2000 wrote:

>First, I'd just like to thank everyone here for their generous

>gifts of sharing their experience. It is so helpful and

>validating to read about your experiences and the kindness you

>all give each other is amazing.

>

>My fada recently passed away and my nada is in a skilled

>nursing facility due to playing with her CHF meds. Anyway, my

>partner and I had planned a vacation and had invited my sister

>to join us along with another friend of ours. (I suspect my

>sister is BPD and we have both been reading the book by

> Lawson.) Anyway, I called her the day she was to

>leave to join us and she was home, hysterical and trying to get

>her taxes done in the 20 minutes she had left before she was to

>leave to join us. I suggested that maybe she was putting too

>much pressure on herself to make the 10 hour drive to see us

>and perhaps she should stay home. She cried even harder then

>saying she wanted to " have some fun " . She " missed her

>daddy " . She then said, " You all are having fun together and I

>don't want to ruin it. " I told her that she wasn't going to

>ruin it and to leave the taxes and come on.

>

>She made the drive and got in about 11pm. She met our friend,

>we cooked her some dinner. I showed her around the condo which

>was a two bedroom place. She had known all along that she and

>our friend were going to share a bedroom and bath and my

>partner and I were in the other room and bath. (We'd planned

>this trip since last October)

>

>In the morning I got up to go to the store and found her on the

>couch. She said she didn't want to be in the room with our

>friend cause she was " coughing all night with the door

>closed " . It was really me and my partner coughing as we both

>were suffering from allergies. We had a conversation about what

>we would do that day when I got back. She moved her car so I

>could get to mine and I went on my way.

>

>About an hour later I get a phone call from her saying that she

>was leaving, that there was no place for her and to call our

>friend and tell her to come back, that she didn't need to leave

>too! Apparantly they got into an argument when my friend had

>gotten up and made herself some breakfast. My sister got nasty

>with her, refused to go into the now vacated bedroom to sleep

>and instead demanded absolute silence while she tried to sleep

>on the couch. My friend, who had been with us for a few days,

>decided that she would go on home and get herself out of this

>family drama. So now they both left.

>

>I tried to reason with my sister who finally just said " I'm

>done with this " and hung up the phone. I spoke with our friend

>who said she was okay, understood that there was something

>going on with my sister and not to worry, she would see us when

>we got back home.

>

>About a week after we got back from vacation, I received a box

>in the mail. It contained a very expensive watch made by an

>artist I love. I had previously owned one of his watches and

>lost it. It broke my heart as I generally never spend that

>kind of money on myself. It was from my sister's town, which

>is the only way I knew it was from her. No note,

>nothing. Just the watch. I finally got an email from her

>telling me to expect something in the mail and that if I didn't

>want it, to send it back.

>

>I sent my sister a thank you card and expressed my

>gratitude. However I said that, when she was ready, we should

>talk about what happened as we had had a similar incident when

>she had joined us in Vail on another vacation. I said - I'd

>like to discuss this out of love and concern for you, not

>blame.

>

>That was almost a month ago and I have heard nothing from

>her. I have not called her either. I feel like the ball is in

>her court. I really thought that if I just gave her some time

>and space without judgement, I'd hear from her. But I

>haven't. She talks now to my brother and to nada, but not me.

>

>I see the gift as a move to " right her wrong " and make up for

>her bad behavior. She did the same thing after the Vail trip -

>sent a gift after refusing to speak to us for hours and

>harboring some resentment she never owned up to. She has a

>history of rages, out of control behavior and generally

>expecting everyone to walk on eggshells around her. I have set

>boundaries with her and vacationing together will not be

>something we do again. But we have had a good phone

>relationship over most of our lives. She has been a great

>support to me and I have been there for her. Even with her own

>issues, she has been keenly aware of our nada and fada, their

>crazy dance and how it has affected us. We have shared many

>conversations trying to figure out what happened and Lawson's

>book really clarified so many things. I am clearly the All

>Good, she is the No Good and my brother is The Lost

>Child. Classic, textbook all the way.

>

>I don't know what to do now. Am I being too harsh by not

>calling her? I know she is really suffering the loss of our

>fada - he was the lynchpin of our family - the true Huntsman

>married to a Hermit. I know much of this has to do with his

>death and her feeling alone and lost, but I also feel that I

>will not suffer her abusive behavior and need to have

>limits. I am grieving his loss too. But I do miss my sister

>for all her good qualities, her love and her support.

>

>Sorry for the overly long post - and thanks again for being the

>wonderful group that you are.

>

>Jaye

--

Katrina

[Guest guest]

Ashana, thank you for the explanation about the invalidation. It is a subtle

but powerful difference. You are right, I did want to cheer her up and to let

her know that she was included. In reality I know her lack of emotional control

really does have the potential to " ruin everything " . I never saw my response as

invalidating, though. Your recommended response might have brought clarity to

the whole situation. Can you recommend some reading or other education

regarding this. I'm would like to be able to recognize this and respond more

appropriately. Again, my thanks.

>

>

>

> Hi Jaye,

>

> First of all, I'm sorry it seems that you may also have two people in your

life who are bpd.  That's rough.

>

> I think the message is really clear--I don't want to talk about it.  It's not

really uncommon.  She may be ashamed of what she has done so she would like to

pretend it didn't happen.  The question then is what to do if she won't talk

about it.  You can still set boundaries even if she won't talk about the

incident.  Just figure out what they will be, what you are going to do, and then

do it.  She has chosen not to talk about it and so she has chosen to let what

you have to say be a complete surprise to her.  If she doesn't like it, she's

going to just have to be unhappy.

>

> She really does not have to talk about it just because you want to, and she

does have the right not to talk about it even if she isn't going to like the

results and it would be a lot better if she did talk about it.  She's not going

about it in the best way, but she may not know a better way to tell you.

>

> The question of whether to call or not is really about whether you want to

talk to her about anything, because she doesn't seem open to talking about

this.  I think she will hold a grudge if you don't call for a long time and

somehow turn it around in her head to you not speaking to her, but I don't know

that that should be a consideration.

>

> If she is bpd, I wanted to point out the ways some of what you said to her was

invalidating.  She said she was going to ruin it and you wanted to cheer her up

(and give her a reality check) and so you told her she wouldn't.  That's

invalidating.  You can't very well tell her she's right, either--it's a

catch-22--but you could ask why she thinks she's going to ruin it.  It's not

possible to be validating all of the time, but it may be helpful to pay

attention to it.  Even if she is not bpd, neither of you probably got validated

very much as children--having had a bpd parent--and that lack of validation does

have an effect.

>

> Best of luck,

> Ashana

>

>

> Now surf faster and smarter ! Check out the new Firefox 3 - Yahoo!

Edition http://downloads.yahoo.com/in/firefox/?fr=om_email_firefox

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi, Jaye -

Your story sounds familiar - a precious bit of vacation time (or holiday, or

wedding) ruined by bad behavior with no real reason for it. You are absolutely

right to protect your future vacation times from your sister's instability.

Here's an idea that might help - we've been having a discussion elsewhere about

's dinner plans with her parents. When I read that she planned to drive

them there, alarms went off for me - and a few others agreed. Dealing with our

Nadas requires us to plan our own escape routes from possible blow-ups.

Likewise, it is possible that your sister just can't handle being in close

quarters with people, or with people she doesn't know well. She might be able

to join you at gatherings if she has a larger-than-normal amount of private

space and time (like, her own motel room down the street from where you're

staying), so she could get away and regroup. No matter what type of PD or other

problem she has, it sounds like a little bit of interaction or stimulation puts

her on edge. If she is given opportunities for personal space and time away

from the group, she might be better able to function. Some people are ready for

group house settings, others have a hard time keeping their social " game face "

on for extended periods of time.

If she can be persuaded to operate like this (and doesn't immediately become

insulted that you've put space between her and the rest of the family or group),

she might do better, and thereby get some " practice time " with her social skills

too, if that's a problem for her.

I send this to you as one who plans blocks of " alone time " during big family

gatherings, myself. I find I can be much nicer to everybody if I can get away

from them for a while.

[Guest guest]

, thanks so much. I think you hit the nail on the head about sharing space

and close quarters. She just can't articulate her own needs, apparently and

acts out instead. At our Vail vacation she was pretty okay until she had to

spend her last night in our suite. She just brooded the whole way to the

airport. We never talked about that and I didn't push the issue, but when we

had another incident, I didn't want to just ignore it. I guess I may just have

to let it go. I know I had to set boundaries with my parents...limited

stays...downtime and breaks from them. Had to always have my own car as a

getaway. I just didn't think she had to do so with me.

Again, my thanks for your insight.

>

> Hi, Jaye -

>

> Your story sounds familiar - a precious bit of vacation time (or holiday, or

wedding) ruined by bad behavior with no real reason for it. You are absolutely

right to protect your future vacation times from your sister's instability.

>

> Here's an idea that might help - we've been having a discussion elsewhere

about 's dinner plans with her parents. When I read that she planned to

drive them there, alarms went off for me - and a few others agreed. Dealing

with our Nadas requires us to plan our own escape routes from possible blow-ups.

Likewise, it is possible that your sister just can't handle being in close

quarters with people, or with people she doesn't know well. She might be able

to join you at gatherings if she has a larger-than-normal amount of private

space and time (like, her own motel room down the street from where you're

staying), so she could get away and regroup. No matter what type of PD or other

problem she has, it sounds like a little bit of interaction or stimulation puts

her on edge. If she is given opportunities for personal space and time away

from the group, she might be better able to function. Some people are ready for

group house settings, others have a hard time keeping their social " game face "

on for extended periods of time.

>

> If she can be persuaded to operate like this (and doesn't immediately become

insulted that you've put space between her and the rest of the family or group),

she might do better, and thereby get some " practice time " with her social skills

too, if that's a problem for her.

>

> I send this to you as one who plans blocks of " alone time " during big family

gatherings, myself. I find I can be much nicer to everybody if I can get away

from them for a while.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi DJ

I have similar issues with my brother. I don't know if its actual BPD or just

fleas from my father, but he definately has some issues with emotional

regulation and anger management. I agree with the poster that suggested you

just call every notw and then to " just say hi " but not to " talk about what

happened. " My brother has been in a hole for over a year now. Based on news

tidbits I receive through the grapevine I suspect his not contacting me because

he doesnt want to talk about what is going on in his life cause, well...from the

sound of it its pretty chaotic. Im hoping that eventually my " just called to

say hi and hope all is well with you " will net a return call. It has in the

past. Just be patient as there is little else you can do. I imagine you miss

her as much as I miss my lil bro, but there still isnt anything you can do,

except maybe let her know that you're still there for her and still her sister

when she's ready to talk (without actually saying that but just by calling every

now and again)

As for books. I agree with Ashana. It is a catch-22 in terms of being

" validating " when someone you care about is saying something negative about

themselves. I didnt really much love the book " Children of the Self-Absorbed "

by Nina W. Brown BUT...it did have a great section on empathy and working on

learning how to not just be empathetic but sound empathetic which is tied to

validation. You might want to pick it up. It helped me realize how in my own

interactions with people I wasnt always sounding as empathetic as I felt. I

mean...we werent taught how to be validating...we were taught the opposite so

that is what seems/sounds/feels normal to us and we have to re-learn. Make

sense?

> >

> >

> >

> > Hi Jaye,

> >

> > First of all, I'm sorry it seems that you may also have two people in your

life who are bpd.  That's rough.

> >

> > I think the message is really clear--I don't want to talk about it.  It's

not really uncommon.  She may be ashamed of what she has done so she would like

to pretend it didn't happen.  The question then is what to do if she won't talk

about it.  You can still set boundaries even if she won't talk about the

incident.  Just figure out what they will be, what you are going to do, and then

do it.  She has chosen not to talk about it and so she has chosen to let what

you have to say be a complete surprise to her.  If she doesn't like it, she's

going to just have to be unhappy.

> >

> > She really does not have to talk about it just because you want to, and she

does have the right not to talk about it even if she isn't going to like the

results and it would be a lot better if she did talk about it.  She's not going

about it in the best way, but she may not know a better way to tell you.

> >

> > The question of whether to call or not is really about whether you want to

talk to her about anything, because she doesn't seem open to talking about

this.  I think she will hold a grudge if you don't call for a long time and

somehow turn it around in her head to you not speaking to her, but I don't know

that that should be a consideration.

> >

> > If she is bpd, I wanted to point out the ways some of what you said to her

was invalidating.  She said she was going to ruin it and you wanted to cheer her

up (and give her a reality check) and so you told her she wouldn't.  That's

invalidating.  You can't very well tell her she's right, either--it's a

catch-22--but you could ask why she thinks she's going to ruin it.  It's not

possible to be validating all of the time, but it may be helpful to pay

attention to it.  Even if she is not bpd, neither of you probably got validated

very much as children--having had a bpd parent--and that lack of validation does

have an effect.

> >

> > Best of luck,

> > Ashana

> >

> >

> > Now surf faster and smarter ! Check out the new Firefox 3 - Yahoo!

Edition http://downloads.yahoo.com/in/firefox/?fr=om_email_firefox

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Me too. I used to be even more like this than I am now and I know for me it was

definately because I felt that in those situations I had to be " on " constantly,

which is exhausting. It wasnt until I learned that I can speak up and say " Know

what I need a little time to myself, you guys go ahead and do whatever Im going

to stay back and read for a bit...catch up with you later " that I was able to

actually feel comfortable in these house/hotel room share situations.

I think " alone time " is a normal healthy human need that we have been

conditioned by our nada/fadas to ignore or think of as selfish and wrong. Maybe

your sister just needs someone to let her know that its OK to want/need personal

space.

My guess is your sister wont be quiet forever and next time you'll be coming at

it with a different understanding of what might be going on with her/your

interpersonal dynamic, and there might be better communication, and it wont turn

out the way it has in the past.

> >

> > Hi, Jaye -

> >

> > Your story sounds familiar - a precious bit of vacation time (or holiday, or

wedding) ruined by bad behavior with no real reason for it. You are absolutely

right to protect your future vacation times from your sister's instability.

> >

> > Here's an idea that might help - we've been having a discussion elsewhere

about 's dinner plans with her parents. When I read that she planned to

drive them there, alarms went off for me - and a few others agreed. Dealing

with our Nadas requires us to plan our own escape routes from possible blow-ups.

Likewise, it is possible that your sister just can't handle being in close

quarters with people, or with people she doesn't know well. She might be able

to join you at gatherings if she has a larger-than-normal amount of private

space and time (like, her own motel room down the street from where you're

staying), so she could get away and regroup. No matter what type of PD or other

problem she has, it sounds like a little bit of interaction or stimulation puts

her on edge. If she is given opportunities for personal space and time away

from the group, she might be better able to function. Some people are ready for

group house settings, others have a hard time keeping their social " game face "

on for extended periods of time.

> >

> > If she can be persuaded to operate like this (and doesn't immediately become

insulted that you've put space between her and the rest of the family or group),

she might do better, and thereby get some " practice time " with her social skills

too, if that's a problem for her.

> >

> > I send this to you as one who plans blocks of " alone time " during big family

gatherings, myself. I find I can be much nicer to everybody if I can get away

from them for a while.

> >

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

I agree you've gotten some good advice here; I think your sister probably does

have bpd or npd, the behaviors you described are so similar to my nada's and to

a narcissist friend I used to have and used to try and take trips with. Neither

nada nor my ex-friend are pleasant people to travel with.

Long travel and unfamiliar places seem to make their behaviors worse. I too

decided a long time ago after three unsuccessful attempts at taking nada with me

to interesting places overseas that I would never try that again. My nada

actually had psychotic breaks with reality on two of these trips.

It sounds logical to just accept that your sister isn't capable of certain

things, and if she has enough nice, good, loving qualities that you want to

maintain a relationship with her, you'll just have to get used to the idea that

she can only tolerate a certain amount of togetherness with equanimity.

The advice that others gave you RE trying very short visits, no long-distance

trips together, no riding there together, no sharing dwellings together and

giving her lots of space and alone-time sounds logical to me.

-Annie

>

> First, I'd just like to thank everyone here for their generous gifts of

sharing their experience. It is so helpful and validating to read about your

experiences and the kindness you all give each other is amazing.

>

> My fada recently passed away and my nada is in a skilled nursing facility due

to playing with her CHF meds. Anyway, my partner and I had planned a vacation

and had invited my sister to join us along with another friend of ours. (I

suspect my sister is BPD and we have both been reading the book by

Lawson.) Anyway, I called her the day she was to leave to join us and she was

home, hysterical and trying to get her taxes done in the 20 minutes she had left

before she was to leave to join us. I suggested that maybe she was putting too

much pressure on herself to make the 10 hour drive to see us and perhaps she

should stay home. She cried even harder then saying she wanted to " have some

fun " . She " missed her daddy " . She then said, " You all are having fun together

and I don't want to ruin it. " I told her that she wasn't going to ruin it and

to leave the taxes and come on.

>

> She made the drive and got in about 11pm. She met our friend, we cooked her

some dinner. I showed her around the condo which was a two bedroom place. She

had known all along that she and our friend were going to share a bedroom and

bath and my partner and I were in the other room and bath. (We'd planned this

trip since last October)

>

> In the morning I got up to go to the store and found her on the couch. She

said she didn't want to be in the room with our friend cause she was " coughing

all night with the door closed " . It was really me and my partner coughing as we

both were suffering from allergies. We had a conversation about what we would do

that day when I got back. She moved her car so I could get to mine and I went on

my way.

>

> About an hour later I get a phone call from her saying that she was leaving,

that there was no place for her and to call our friend and tell her to come

back, that she didn't need to leave too! Apparantly they got into an argument

when my friend had gotten up and made herself some breakfast. My sister got

nasty with her, refused to go into the now vacated bedroom to sleep and instead

demanded absolute silence while she tried to sleep on the couch. My friend, who

had been with us for a few days, decided that she would go on home and get

herself out of this family drama. So now they both left.

>

> I tried to reason with my sister who finally just said " I'm done with this "

and hung up the phone. I spoke with our friend who said she was okay,

understood that there was something going on with my sister and not to worry,

she would see us when we got back home.

>

> About a week after we got back from vacation, I received a box in the mail.

It contained a very expensive watch made by an artist I love. I had previously

owned one of his watches and lost it. It broke my heart as I generally never

spend that kind of money on myself. It was from my sister's town, which is the

only way I knew it was from her. No note, nothing. Just the watch. I finally

got an email from her telling me to expect something in the mail and that if I

didn't want it, to send it back.

>

> I sent my sister a thank you card and expressed my gratitude. However I said

that, when she was ready, we should talk about what happened as we had had a

similar incident when she had joined us in Vail on another vacation. I said -

I'd like to discuss this out of love and concern for you, not blame.

>

> That was almost a month ago and I have heard nothing from her. I have not

called her either. I feel like the ball is in her court. I really thought that

if I just gave her some time and space without judgement, I'd hear from her.

But I haven't. She talks now to my brother and to nada, but not me.

>

> I see the gift as a move to " right her wrong " and make up for her bad

behavior. She did the same thing after the Vail trip - sent a gift after

refusing to speak to us for hours and harboring some resentment she never owned

up to. She has a history of rages, out of control behavior and generally

expecting everyone to walk on eggshells around her. I have set boundaries with

her and vacationing together will not be something we do again. But we have had

a good phone relationship over most of our lives. She has been a great support

to me and I have been there for her. Even with her own issues, she has been

keenly aware of our nada and fada, their crazy dance and how it has affected us.

We have shared many conversations trying to figure out what happened and

Lawson's book really clarified so many things. I am clearly the All Good, she

is the No Good and my brother is The Lost Child. Classic, textbook all the way.

>

> I don't know what to do now. Am I being too harsh by not calling her? I know

she is really suffering the loss of our fada - he was the lynchpin of our family

- the true Huntsman married to a Hermit. I know much of this has to do with his

death and her feeling alone and lost, but I also feel that I will not suffer her

abusive behavior and need to have limits. I am grieving his loss too. But I do

miss my sister for all her good qualities, her love and her support.

>

> Sorry for the overly long post - and thanks again for being the wonderful

group that you are.

>

> Jaye

>