Re: nada's visit

[Guest guest]

,

" This probably sounds like I'm trying to figure out ways to " see " Nada

without actually having to spend time with her - so right. "

I had thoughts about this during the visit - I basically realized that I was

trying to figure out ways to be with her without really having to talk to

her or have any significant interactions with her (and to limit her

impact/time with my kids). I can't really get my mind and emotions around

this yet. If it were anyone else, it would seem like a counterproductive way

to try to carry on or further the relationship. But with my mom, I'm not

really interested in furthering the relationship. I'm not sure what I want

in a relationship with her, but overall it is less and less relationship and

affect/impact on me and my family. I have basically been distancing myself

and my kids from her little by little. I've known I was doing this, but

since we had not seen her, I did not realize what that is like in person.

I'm still fairly numb from the shield/wall I unconsciously put up whenever I

am around her, but I think there is a part of me that is actually quite sad

to realize that not only am I choosing to have less relationship with her,

she really is not capable of caring for me or my kids or anyone else in a

healthy and caring way. Part of me knew this, but another part has been

still operating as if I could do the right thing(s) she would actually care

about us in a way that is not all about her. She puts on the appearance of

being caring, loving and generous really well at times, but I'm realizing

that it is only an appearance and there will probably never be more than an

appearance. And when I actually let myself feel this, I feel like a small

child crying for her mommy that she never had and never will have.

MY

On Thu, Jun 11, 2009 at 6:53 AM, shirleyspawn wrote:

>

>

> MY - Congrats on surviving the visit! Two thoughts - since your mom is on

> chemo, being around small children (with their germs) can really be

> dangerous. If her treatment continues, she might be much safer staying in a

> motel room rather than sleeping at your house (really, it might be healthier

> - and what a perfect excuse to put some distance between Nada and your

> family!). Second - the movies - YES! I do this with my mom, too. When she

> wants to see us (a rare occurrence these days, since I'm limiting her

> contact with myself and my son) - one of the things we consider is meeting

> her at a theatre to see a movie she likes. That's at least two hours in

> which she cannot have a hissy fit. She feels like she's had time with us,

> and we can safely disengage very quickly right after the movie ends.

>

> This probably sounds like I'm trying to figure out ways to " see " Nada

> without actually having to spend time with her - so right. Her visits have a

> predictable timeline - 15 minutes of being nice and catching up, followed by

> probing questions to elicit pieces of info she can use, followed by her

> becoming irritated that we don't follow her script, followed by a pity-party

> or angry outburst and attempts to " talk about MY problems and why I'M so

> messed up. " If we can substitute a 2 hour movie and keep the conversation

> within that first 15 minutes of pleasant interaction, we all win. -

>

>

> >

> > I've been off this list for several days due to the fact that nada was

> > visiting us over the weekend and the only computer I use is very public

> to

> > anyone in the house.

> >

> > It is the first time she came to our house since I found out about BPD in

> > January. Overall, it went about as good as could be expected. It was just

> > plain exhausting though!! Now that I know more about why she acts the way

> > she does, I am quite far from compassionate detachment and instead find

> so

> > many things just plain annoying and irritating or they make me want to

> > scream. It was also exhausting to constantly be on guard and alert to

> trying

> > to not let things slide.

> >

> > Some things I did better in relating to her in terms of not letting her

> call

> > all the shots - and I am trying to rehearse these a bit and be grateful

> for

> > any progress I am making. The circumstances were ripe for difficulties as

> > one of my kids got really sick the night she arrived and then another one

> > the next day and of course then nada gets sick most likely from them. Her

> > attempts at wanting us to pay attention to her and give her sympathy

> because

> > she " really wasn't feeling well " was almost comical in retrospect, but at

> > the time was just sad and irritating. My husband and I focused on taking

> > care of our kids. We gave her some attention and care as well (I did feel

> > badly that she got sick from them and it can be very serious for her

> because

> > she is on chemo currently), but she was clearly our second priority. At

> one

> > point I was really worried that she would end up in the hospital here - I

> > did not want to have anything close to a medical emergency while she was

> > here. I even offered to take her to the train anytime she wanted if she

> > wanted to go home. But in the end, she made it back to her own hometown

> > without a medical emergency while she was here.

> >

> > I also discovered that watching movies in the evening eliminated the

> evening

> > conversations she tends to have with me after the kids go to bed. Even

> > before I knew about BPD I could barely stand these - even if she does not

> > try to have some serious conversation with me about things I do not want

> to

> > talk about, her entire conversations are so focused on her that I can

> only

> > take it for so long. Watching movies together (which she still managed to

> > talk during them, but it was much less and I certainly did not try to

> carry

> > on a conversation) was a much better alternative and then - " oh I'm so

> > tired, I'm going to go to bed. See you in the morning. "

> >

> > There are also lots of places where I have tons more progress to make - I

> > felt like there is an invisible thread tying me to her and without being

> > really intentional on my part she just pulls the thread and I respond

> > accordingly. Constantly working against what I did not realize is are

> > strongly ingrained patterns in myself was exhausting. I was relieved and

> > almost elated the morning when I took her to the train station and I know

> my

> > husband was too.

> >

> > MY

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Normal, engaging, mutually enjoyable conversation that's not loaded with

subtext; that's hard to achieve with my nada and with other pd individuals I

have known well.

My nada's communication styles vary. Sometimes she will ramble on non-stop,

pretty much giving a talk instead of engaging in a conversation; when she does

that the topic is usually herself. Sometimes she's on fire to interrogate me.

When she's ticked off at me but talking to me, she's kind of overly-perky and

tends to pepper her speech with subtle put-downs and insults, or she will allude

vaguely to things I have done in the past that have ticked her off.

Your nada's behaviors sound openly hostile, like she is really pissed off at you

and all but telling you openly to shut up. And she's like that all the time?

How awful for you. Brrr.

-Annie

>

> how odd..my nada will turn on a movie so she doesn't have to talk...she

> doesn't want to talk to her kids ( except for the perfect one) she can't

> carry on a conversation...when I used to try and talk to her, she'd either

> get up and walk away as I'm talking, talk over me and change the subject, or

> pick up a magazine and start reading...

>

> glad her visit wasn't too painful for you

>

> Jackie

>

>

>

> I also discovered that watching movies in the evening eliminated the evening

> conversations she tends to have with me after the kids go to bed. Even

> before I knew about BPD I could barely stand these - even if she does not

> try to have some serious conversation with me about things I do not want to

> talk about, her entire conversations are so focused on her that I can only

> take it for so long. Watching movies together (which she still managed to

> talk during them, but it was much less and I certainly did not try to carry

> on a conversation) was a much better alternative and then - " oh I'm so

> tired, I'm going to go to bed. See you in the morning. "

>

[Guest guest]

My,

 

I think it's the lack of emotional boundaries that's exhausting.  I am also very

introverted and days of talking to anyone would tire me out, but bpds or people

with bpd traits are incredibly draining for me to deal with--even if it's really

only a few minutes.  Fifteen minutes of a bpd conversation exhausts me.  I don't

think it's the talking.  It's that sense of them just spilling out

everywhere--emotions, words, thoughts--that are all just completely uncontained

that I think is so wearing.  I think it leads you to feel you are constantly

working to contain someone else.  It's the emotional equivalent of trying to

babysit a hyperactive 2-year-old.

 

I find it a little less exhausting since I have learned to set boundaries in

conversations better.  I have a colleague with strong bpd traits whom I have had

to work very closely with for close to 3 years and it has helped me a lot to say

certain things that make it clear to both of us that she is not me.  I say a lot

of, " I see it differently, " " That must be...[emotion]...for you, " (which says it

is her feeling and not mine), " What do you think you will do? " (which says it is

her problem and not mine).

 

I have also simply refused to have certain conversations.  She complains about

other colleagues at times and, although I think venting is sometimes necessary,

I also think it's morally wrong to complain about a person's behavior if

you aren't also willing to confront the person about it and I have said so and

then been quite prepared to leave the room if it did not stop.  She doesn't have

to agree with me that it's wrong, but she does have to find someone else to talk

to about it.

Best,

Ashana

Bollywood news, movie reviews, film trailers and more! Go to

http://in.movies.yahoo.com/

[Guest guest]

,

How right you are about not making our responses to nada the only way be

react to or interact with people. I'm only just beginning to see the places

where I've had very necessary coping mechanisms in relation to my FOO - they

protected me and got me through my childhood. The problem is that I end up

using these same coping mechanisms without even thinking about it in all

kinds of situations where it is not even remotely necessary and certainly

does not add to the health of the relationship(s) or how I tend to view the

world.

MY

On Thu, Jun 11, 2009 at 8:21 AM, shirleyspawn wrote:

>

>

> - You're right, it is VERY sad to think we have to put up walls

> between ourselves and our mothers. It goes against everything we're supposed

> to believe. Relationships are supposed to be about reaching toward others -

> not building defenses. I think it's important to realize that we didn't get

> to this place by accident. If there were ANY other way, we wouldn't be doing

> this. And it's important that we not take this " wall building " response as

> our only way of reacting to people - we have to work not to shut out

> everybody else, too, isolating ourselves in a world where we expect everyone

> to treat us like Nada does.

>

> It's exhausting having a Nada. -

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

" I think it's the lack of emotional boundaries that's exhausting. "

Ashana,

I find this very intriguing to think about - that it may largely may be my

nada's lack of emotional boundaries that wear me out - very likely true. I

have friends or coworkers who talk an awful lot and they wear my out too

pretty quickly, but there is something different about the way I find my

nada to be so exhausting to be around.

I've often thought that I can not really handle really 'needy' people in

large part from having dealt with my mom for my entire life, but the 'needy'

people who I tend to back away from very quickly have very little in the way

of emotional boundaries.

MY

>

>

> My,

>

> I think it's the lack of emotional boundaries that's exhausting. I am also

> very introverted and days of talking to anyone would tire me out, but bpds

> or people with bpd traits are incredibly draining for me to deal with--even

> if it's really only a few minutes. Fifteen minutes of a bpd conversation

> exhausts me. I don't think it's the talking. It's that sense of them just

> spilling out everywhere--emotions, words, thoughts--that are all just

> completely uncontained that I think is so wearing. I think it leads you to

> feel you are constantly working to contain someone else. It's the emotional

> equivalent of trying to babysit a hyperactive 2-year-old.

>

> I find it a little less exhausting since I have learned to set boundaries

> in conversations better. I have a colleague with strong bpd traits whom I

> have had to work very closely with for close to 3 years and it has helped me

> a lot to say certain things that make it clear to both of us that she is not

> me. I say a lot of, " I see it differently, " " That must be...[emotion]...for

> you, " (which says it is her feeling and not mine), " What do you think you

> will do? " (which says it is her problem and not mine).

>

> I have also simply refused to have certain conversations. She complains

> about other colleagues at times and, although I think venting is sometimes

> necessary, I also think it's morally wrong to complain about a person's

> behavior if you aren't also willing to confront the person about it and I

> have said so and then been quite prepared to leave the room if it did not

> stop. She doesn't have to agree with me that it's wrong, but she does have

> to find someone else to talk to about it.

>

> Best,

> Ashana

>

> Bollywood news, movie reviews, film trailers and more! Go to

> http://in.movies.yahoo.com/

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Oh, I completely agree. Nada gives me a headache because it's constant rambling

about nothing - lately the topics are ducks crossing the road, neighbor's tree,

neighbor's car, neighbor's cat and dog, bridge group, friend remodelling her

house, sister playing tennis, friend visiting daughter (hint-hint), friend going

to stay with son for 3 months (big hint-hint), exercise group, the cat, the

weather, lastest movie seen, what she's cooking for dinner...on and on it goes.

One call when I was sort of listening, something perked my interested and I

tried to ask a question, she kept on going. I asked the question agian and she

still kep talking so finally I yelled " Hey Mom! " . I think I startled her because

she yelled back " WHAT?! " I almost laughed. I asked my question about something

four topics back, she answered and then continued on where she left off without

missing a beat.

Abby

>

> >

> >

> > My,

> >

> > I think it's the lack of emotional boundaries that's exhausting. I am also

> > very introverted and days of talking to anyone would tire me out, but bpds

> > or people with bpd traits are incredibly draining for me to deal with--even

> > if it's really only a few minutes. Fifteen minutes of a bpd conversation

> > exhausts me. I don't think it's the talking. It's that sense of them just

> > spilling out everywhere--emotions, words, thoughts--that are all just

> > completely uncontained that I think is so wearing. I think it leads you to

> > feel you are constantly working to contain someone else. It's the emotional

> > equivalent of trying to babysit a hyperactive 2-year-old.

> >

> > I find it a little less exhausting since I have learned to set boundaries

> > in conversations better. I have a colleague with strong bpd traits whom I

> > have had to work very closely with for close to 3 years and it has helped me

> > a lot to say certain things that make it clear to both of us that she is not

> > me. I say a lot of, " I see it differently, " " That must be...[emotion]...for

> > you, " (which says it is her feeling and not mine), " What do you think you

> > will do? " (which says it is her problem and not mine).

> >

> > I have also simply refused to have certain conversations. She complains

> > about other colleagues at times and, although I think venting is sometimes

> > necessary, I also think it's morally wrong to complain about a person's

> > behavior if you aren't also willing to confront the person about it and I

> > have said so and then been quite prepared to leave the room if it did not

> > stop. She doesn't have to agree with me that it's wrong, but she does have

> > to find someone else to talk to about it.

> >

> > Best,

> > Ashana

> >

> > Bollywood news, movie reviews, film trailers and more! Go to

> > http://in.movies.yahoo.com/

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

For me, the exhaustion was due to a combination plate of:

A) Rambling on about herself and her doings non-stop.

Interrogating me about personal things that were not her business

C) Putting a negative spin on any news about other people

D) Inserting sly, passive-aggressive insults aimed at me just under the radar,

particularly when she was being super perky/cheerful, which is her mask behavior

when she's really pissed off at me but not showing it overtly.

Phone calls with my nada were tending to result in a migraine headache afterward

for me, so, I'm only sending and receiving letters from her these days. Much

easier to handle; she doesn't like writing long letters.

-Annie

> >

> > >

> > >

> > > My,

> > >

> > > I think it's the lack of emotional boundaries that's exhausting. I am

also

> > > very introverted and days of talking to anyone would tire me out, but bpds

> > > or people with bpd traits are incredibly draining for me to deal

with--even

> > > if it's really only a few minutes. Fifteen minutes of a bpd conversation

> > > exhausts me. I don't think it's the talking. It's that sense of them

just

> > > spilling out everywhere--emotions, words, thoughts--that are all just

> > > completely uncontained that I think is so wearing. I think it leads you

to

> > > feel you are constantly working to contain someone else. It's the

emotional

> > > equivalent of trying to babysit a hyperactive 2-year-old.

> > >

> > > I find it a little less exhausting since I have learned to set boundaries

> > > in conversations better. I have a colleague with strong bpd traits whom I

> > > have had to work very closely with for close to 3 years and it has helped

me

> > > a lot to say certain things that make it clear to both of us that she is

not

> > > me. I say a lot of, " I see it differently, " " That must

be...[emotion]...for

> > > you, " (which says it is her feeling and not mine), " What do you think you

> > > will do? " (which says it is her problem and not mine).

> > >

> > > I have also simply refused to have certain conversations. She complains

> > > about other colleagues at times and, although I think venting is sometimes

> > > necessary, I also think it's morally wrong to complain about a person's

> > > behavior if you aren't also willing to confront the person about it and I

> > > have said so and then been quite prepared to leave the room if it did not

> > > stop. She doesn't have to agree with me that it's wrong, but she does

have

> > > to find someone else to talk to about it.

> > >

> > > Best,

> > > Ashana

> > >

> > > Bollywood news, movie reviews, film trailers and more! Go to

> > > http://in.movies.yahoo.com/

> > >

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

>

> For me, the exhaustion was due to a combination plate of:

> A) Rambling on about herself and her doings non-stop.

> Interrogating me about personal things that were not her business

> C) Putting a negative spin on any news about other people

> D) Inserting sly, passive-aggressive insults aimed at me just under the radar,

particularly when she was being super perky/cheerful, which is her mask behavior

when she's really pissed off at me but not showing it overtly.

I never thought about the super perky/cheeful voice before, but I have noticed

that is when she can become particularly nasty with me. If the sad, depressed

" poor me " waif voice doesn't work, then the next phone call she is upbeat and

perky which puts me on alert because nada is not upbeat and perky. That's when I

usually get the incessant little jabs which are very passive/agressive. If I

react then I'm the one with the problem...Interesting.

Abby

[Guest guest]

Hi Abby,

Yes, it never ceases to amaze me at how similiar the bpd behaviors can be from

nada to nada. It was my Sister who first noticed and labeled this behavior of

our nada's: the " fake happy " behavior that is really a mask to cover her

hostility.

-Annie

> I never thought about the super perky/cheeful voice before, but I have noticed

that is when she can become particularly nasty with me. If the sad, depressed

" poor me " waif voice doesn't work, then the next phone call she is upbeat and

perky which puts me on alert because nada is not upbeat and perky. That's when I

usually get the incessant little jabs which are very passive/agressive. If I

react then I'm the one with the problem...Interesting.

>

> Abby

>

> >

> > For me, the exhaustion was due to a combination plate of:

> > A) Rambling on about herself and her doings non-stop.

> > Interrogating me about personal things that were not her business

> > C) Putting a negative spin on any news about other people

> > D) Inserting sly, passive-aggressive insults aimed at me just under the

radar, particularly when she was being super perky/cheerful, which is her mask

behavior when she's really pissed off at me but not showing it overtly.

>