Guest guest Posted June 4, 2009 Report Share Posted June 4, 2009 It's very rare that I get a gift from nada, say once a year or so. Usually the gift is something really not at all my style, or a hand-me-down--a gift she has bought herself and grown bored of or a gift her boyfriend has purchased for her. If I happen to like the gift, which is rare, I tend to keep it if I feel comfortable doing so. If I don't like the gift or don't want to keep it, I give it away or throw it out. Any gift she's given me is typically worth less than $30, so there really isn't any money in selling them. Nice to know how much value she places on her only daughter! She did buy me a small set of dishes once when she flew out for a visit. I do like the dishes, but I don't like the way she made me feel when she bought them for me. That's a tough one... there is some residual " bad energy " associated with the dishes, but they are really pretty and I would have bought them myself. I'm keeping those for now. I've also tried to explain to her that while I appreciate the thought of her giving me a gift, my taste is particular and so I would prefer cash in lieu of a gift. She's ignored my request. I'll probably have to hammer it home again at some point. In short, I think that giving away the gifts you don't like is perfectly fine. Or throw them in the trash if your nada makes you feel really crappy about them. I've gone that route as well, and it's very cathartic. If she asks you about it, you can say that you appreciate the thought but the gift is not really your style and you've passed it on to someone who can appreciate it. That's what I plan to do with my latest " gift. " As for buying nada gifts, I've stopped doing that altogether. I find it's absolutely pointless. qwerty > > I'm curious how do you all deal with gifts from your nadas - this is whether you and NC or not. Let's say she gave you a set of bath towels. This is something you might use every day, on your very body. How would you feel about that? If they were nice towels would you just use them and not care that they came from her? My nada has always tended to give practical household type gifts to me so I have items like that spread throughout my home (my flatware is from her for example) and as I am working through my feelings in therapy using these things bother me. Yet to replace it all seems like a really silly unnecessary expense. > > Tying this to Walking's post just previous to mine - I'd have a real hard time eating those cookies. I might even give them away to someone else. > > Thoughts? > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 5, 2009 Report Share Posted June 5, 2009 This is a question for all those on the list who are the biological children of their mothers and are not adopted. It is also a question more for those with nadas and not fadas. Do you ever wonder if part of the problem and why nothing you ever do is right or good enough is because she MADE you and she feels deep inside that she is fatally flawed and therefore everything she does or makes must also be beyond salvage? Or, conversely, do you feel you must be perfect and give her everything she wants and do everything she wants because she MADE you and everything she does and makes must also be perfect, or else it means there is also something wrong with her? It just crossed my mind tonight because qwerty mentioned that she never bothers giving gifts anymore to her nada and I thought that maybe it adds another layer to things that at some point we were literally a part of them. I know I have some students with bpd traits that really cannot tolerate things like mis-spelling a word or making a mistake in a math problem. If there is a single mistake, they feel compelled to crumple the paper up and start completely over. When we are flawed (at least according to them), do they just have the urge to crumple the paper up and start over? And yet we are still there. They can't make us over. Just wondering, Ashana From Chandigarh to Chennai - find friends all over India. Go to http://in.promos.yahoo.com/groups/citygroups/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 6, 2009 Report Share Posted June 6, 2009 >Do you ever wonder if part of the problem and why nothing you ever do is >right or good enough is >because she MADE you and she feels deep inside >that she is fatally flawed and therefore everything she >does or makes must >also be beyond salvage? no I don't...she also " made " my oldest brother, who can do no wrong, and she made my other brother and my 2 sisters who she likes better than me. I figured I was the least liked one becaise I'm the only one who resembles my fathers side of the family >Or, conversely, do you feel you must be perfect and give her everything she >wants and do everything she >wants because she MADE you and everything she >does and makes must also be perfect, or else it means >there is also >something wrong with her? no, I tried to do everything she wanted when I was a little kid, of course we want to keep mommy happy, but it never worked, so by jr high, I just said tought, nothing I do makes her happy, so poop on her >It just crossed my mind tonight because qwerty mentioned that she never >bothers giving gifts anymore to >her nada and I thought that maybe it adds >another layer to things that at some point we were literally a >part of >them. I haven't given a gift to my nada since I lived with them...once out of the house, I quit...nothing pleases her, and she just either throws it away or gives it to someone else.. >When we are flawed (at least according to them), do they just have the urge >to crumple the paper up and >start over? And yet we are still there. They >can't make us over. maybe, and maybe thats why she's always threatened to kill us all...because we were flawed ( she should look in a mirror) when I was in school, I used to pretend I was adopted, that would explain why I wasn't loved like the rest of my siblings Jackie From Chandigarh to Chennai - find friends all over India. Go to http://in.promos.yahoo.com/groups/citygroups/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 6, 2009 Report Share Posted June 6, 2009 Ashana, I think you have a very interesting point. But it can often be said that the way a person treats others often reflects how they feel about themselves, not the people they are treating badly. As children we are often seen as inferior to our parents. They have authority over us. How a person treats his/her inferiors is also an indicator of the persons true self and how they really are. I think you have a valid point, although I don't full heartedly agree with it. ~Sara Jo > > This is a question for all those on the list who are the biological children of their mothers and are not adopted. It is also a question more for those with nadas and not fadas. > > Do you ever wonder if part of the problem and why nothing you ever do is right or good enough is because she MADE you and she feels deep inside that she is fatally flawed and therefore everything she does or makes must also be beyond salvage? > > Or, conversely, do you feel you must be perfect and give her everything she wants and do everything she wants because she MADE you and everything she does and makes must also be perfect, or else it means there is also something wrong with her? > > It just crossed my mind tonight because qwerty mentioned that she never bothers giving gifts anymore to her nada and I thought that maybe it adds another layer to things that at some point we were literally a part of them. > > I know I have some students with bpd traits that really cannot tolerate things like mis-spelling a word or making a mistake in a math problem. If there is a single mistake, they feel compelled to crumple the paper up and start completely over. When we are flawed (at least according to them), do they just have the urge to crumple the paper up and start over? And yet we are still there. They can't make us over. > > Just wondering, > Ashana > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From Chandigarh to Chennai - find friends all over India. Go to http://in.promos.yahoo.com/groups/citygroups/ > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 6, 2009 Report Share Posted June 6, 2009 It's interesting that you mentioned how nadas treat those they see as inferior because my nada is revoltingly abusive to her teacher's aides and her poor, non-English speaking cleaning lady. She's also racist deep down, and will not be friendly to black people. Once she was at a Blockbuster with my husband and he said he was absolutely mortified as she loudly ripped into one of the cashiers when he checked out another customer ahead of her by mistake. It's nauseating!  ________________________________ To: WTOAdultChildren1 Sent: Saturday, June 6, 2009 9:58:27 AM Subject: Re: what to do with gifts Ashana, I think you have a very interesting point. But it can often be said that the way a person treats others often reflects how they feel about themselves, not the people they are treating badly. As children we are often seen as inferior to our parents. They have authority over us. How a person treats his/her inferiors is also an indicator of the persons true self and how they really are. I think you have a valid point, although I don't full heartedly agree with it. ~Sara Jo > > This is a question for all those on the list who are the biological children of their mothers and are not adopted. It is also a question more for those with nadas and not fadas. >  > Do you ever wonder if part of the problem and why nothing you ever do is right or good enough is because she MADE you and she feels deep inside that she is fatally flawed and therefore everything she does or makes must also be beyond salvage? >  > Or, conversely, do you feel you must be perfect and give her everything she wants and do everything she wants because she MADE you and everything she does and makes must also be perfect, or else it means there is also something wrong with her? >  > It just crossed my mind tonight because qwerty mentioned that she never bothers giving gifts anymore to her nada and I thought that maybe it adds another layer to things that at some point we were literally a part of them. >  > I know I have some students with bpd traits that really cannot tolerate things like mis-spelling a word or making a mistake in a math problem. If there is a single mistake, they feel compelled to crumple the paper up and start completely over. When we are flawed (at least according to them), do they just have the urge to crumple the paper up and start over? And yet we are still there. They can't make us over. >  > Just wondering, > Ashana > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From Chandigarh to Chennai - find friends all over India. Go to http://in.promos. yahoo.com/ groups/citygroup s/ > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 6, 2009 Report Share Posted June 6, 2009 My nada is pretty much the opposite. She makes a big show of being nice to " inferior " people and doing " good things " for them. I think she wants to impress other people with how she's both better than those people and morally superior to the people who don't help them. At 12:18 PM 06/06/2009 Lara ez wrote: >It's interesting that you mentioned how nadas treat those they >see as inferior because my nada is revoltingly abusive to her >teacher's aides and her poor, non-English speaking cleaning >lady. She's also racist deep down, and will not be friendly >to black people. Once she was at a Blockbuster with my >husband and he said he was absolutely mortified as she loudly >ripped into one of the cashiers when he checked out another >customer ahead of her by mistake. It's nauseating! -- Katrina Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 6, 2009 Report Share Posted June 6, 2009 The commonality of these opposite reactions appears to be based on the nada's need to feel superior to others, though, seems to me. Perhaps the arrogant, hostile bpd will abuse and humiliate her supposed " inferiors " to give herself a feeling of power. Maybe seeing fear and pain in the faces of others gives her a rush. And perhaps the emotionally needy bpd feels that bestowing god-like benevolence to her " inferiors " will generate desirable feedback for her like worship, gratitude and loyalty. Seems to me that most of a bpd's behaviors when you peel away the layers are at their core based on profound narcissism: a near total absorption with their own selves, their own needs, their own feelings to the nearly complete exclusion of others. Even if at the core of this self-absorption is a malfunctioning brain that does not allow the pd individual to perceive and interpret reality accurately, like being born blind or deaf, still, to me that does not entitle a person to then inflict their own internal pain and anguish on other people, particularly on helpless children. That is what makes it so hard for me to feel compassion for the personality disordered, I guess. Why do they feel *entitled* to hurt other people just because they were hurt, or are hurting? I do not feel compassion for bullies, no matter what the reason is they are bullies; being a bully is never justified. Its just like saying, " Well, I was raped and you have to feel sorry for me because I was raped; being raped gives me the right to go rape other people; hold still so I can rape you now. " That kind of thinking just seems so obviously idiotic to me; it makes no sense and I just don't get it. -Annie > >It's interesting that you mentioned how nadas treat those they > >see as inferior because my nada is revoltingly abusive to her > >teacher's aides and her poor, non-English speaking cleaning > >lady. She's also racist deep down, and will not be friendly > >to black people. Once she was at a Blockbuster with my > >husband and he said he was absolutely mortified as she loudly > >ripped into one of the cashiers when he checked out another > >customer ahead of her by mistake. It's nauseating! > > -- > Katrina > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 6, 2009 Report Share Posted June 6, 2009 except...my nada was horrible to her kids and husband...yet is sickening sweet to everyone else...she seems to make a point to treat " inferrior " people extra special, like in a grand attemt to show the world what a great person she is... Jackie Ashana, I think you have a very interesting point. But it can often be said that the way a person treats others often reflects how they feel about themselves, not the people they are treating badly. As children we are often seen as inferior to our parents. They have authority over us. How a person treats his/her inferiors is also an indicator of the persons true self and how they really are. I think you have a valid point, although I don't full heartedly agree with it. ~Sara Jo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 6, 2009 Report Share Posted June 6, 2009 I totally agree with you, Annie !! We were hurt terribly as children, yet we don't go around hurting others..what makes them think it's OK to do this to others, especially their own kids ?? and yes, my nada is VERY narcissistic Jackie The commonality of these opposite reactions appears to be based on the nada's need to feel superior to others, though, seems to me. Perhaps the arrogant, hostile bpd will abuse and humiliate her supposed " inferiors " to give herself a feeling of power. Maybe seeing fear and pain in the faces of others gives her a rush. And perhaps the emotionally needy bpd feels that bestowing god-like benevolence to her " inferiors " will generate desirable feedback for her like worship, gratitude and loyalty. Seems to me that most of a bpd's behaviors when you peel away the layers are at their core based on profound narcissism: a near total absorption with their own selves, their own needs, their own feelings to the nearly complete exclusion of others. Even if at the core of this self-absorption is a malfunctioning brain that does not allow the pd individual to perceive and interpret reality accurately, like being born blind or deaf, still, to me that does not entitle a person to then inflict their own internal pain and anguish on other people, particularly on helpless children. That is what makes it so hard for me to feel compassion for the personality disordered, I guess. Why do they feel *entitled* to hurt other people just because they were hurt, or are hurting? I do not feel compassion for bullies, no matter what the reason is they are bullies; being a bully is never justified. Its just like saying, " Well, I was raped and you have to feel sorry for me because I was raped; being raped gives me the right to go rape other people; hold still so I can rape you now. " That kind of thinking just seems so obviously idiotic to me; it makes no sense and I just don't get it. -Annie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 6, 2009 Report Share Posted June 6, 2009 I agree that feeling superior is at the base of these behaviors. Different nadas choose different ways of showing their supposed superiority, but I think most of them feel a need to make sure other people see how superior they are. My nada seems to be a lot more concerned with making sure that other people see her as *morally* superior while some others seem to want to show that they have superior power over other people or various other forms of superiority. Of course, since her perceptions of a lot of things are oddly skewed and self-centered, the things she does to " help " people and show her superiority are often twisted and end up having the opposite effect from what she wants, sometimes causing a lot of hurt feelings and harm. There is no way of making sense of their thinking because it arises out of mental illness and simply isn't sensible by normal standards. For what it is worth though, I don't think my nada generally feels entitled to hurt people as such. She does feel entitled to do what she wants to do without having to worry about the consequences before doing it and she's often oblivious to how other people feel. That adds up to hurting people a lot but with her, the hurt is more often an unintended consequence. The hurt isn't intentional but she doesn't seem to feel much if any guilt for causing it. Sometimes she does decide to be just plain mean to specific people though, generally when she feels they've done something to her that makes her deserve to get back at them specifically. Once she's decided to do that, she can get very nasty and there's no convincing her to stop. Some BPs seem to spread similar feelings of entitlement to hurt across a much broader target. At 01:22 PM 06/06/2009 anuria67854 wrote: >The commonality of these opposite reactions appears to be based >on the nada's need to feel superior to others, though, seems >to me. > >Perhaps the arrogant, hostile bpd will abuse and humiliate her >supposed " inferiors " to give herself a feeling of power. Maybe >seeing fear and pain in the faces of others gives her a rush. > >And perhaps the emotionally needy bpd feels that bestowing >god-like benevolence to her " inferiors " will generate desirable >feedback for her like worship, gratitude and loyalty. > >Seems to me that most of a bpd's behaviors when you peel away >the layers are at their core based on profound narcissism: a >near total absorption with their own selves, their own needs, >their own feelings to the nearly complete exclusion of others. > >Even if at the core of this self-absorption is a malfunctioning >brain that does not allow the pd individual to perceive and >interpret reality accurately, like being born blind or deaf, >still, to me that does not entitle a person to then inflict >their own internal pain and anguish on other people, >particularly on helpless children. > >That is what makes it so hard for me to feel compassion for the >personality disordered, I guess. Why do they feel *entitled* >to hurt other people just because they were hurt, or are >hurting? > >I do not feel compassion for bullies, no matter what the reason >is they are bullies; being a bully is never justified. > >Its just like saying, " Well, I was raped and you have to feel >sorry for me because I was raped; being raped gives me the >right to go rape other people; hold still so I can rape you >now. " > >That kind of thinking just seems so obviously idiotic to me; it >makes no sense and I just don't get it. > > >-Annie -- Katrina Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 6, 2009 Report Share Posted June 6, 2009 > Why do they feel *entitled* to hurt other people just because they were hurt, or are hurting? That pretty much sums it all up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 6, 2009 Report Share Posted June 6, 2009 Shanon - There ya go!! The late great comedian Carlin had a whole routine about how we accumulate " stuff " , then have to buy a house to keep our stuff in, and how our stuff really controls us. It's bad enough when it's your own stuff that you actually want - to have Nada's unwanted stuff control you is just sick. So get the big black garbage bags and start rummaging - somebody out there is setting up their first apartment, and Nada's stuff will be a great find for them! - > > > > > she didnt want to buy me what I really wanted... I used to feel guilty for wanting to give away a gift she got me but I refused to wear/use it but just couldn't bear the thought of giving it away. I was paranoid that " what if she asked to see it or borrow it or asked where it was " . I am trying to get over that and purge the unneeded and unwanted things. > > > > > Shanon - SO RIGHT - if you feel so guilty you don't pass on, or throw out, the stuff you don't want, and it sits there, taking up space, collecting dust, and reminding you how much Nada disregards your wishes, how much her gift-giving is about controlling you - you become the miserable and bitter curator of Nada's Unwanted Gift Museum. Far, far better to just get rid of it. If she challenges you, you tell her that a gift is just that - it belongs to the recipient, no strings attached. Anything other than a treasured family heirloom may be re-gifted, sold, given to Goodwill, or burned in the back yard. She has the option of not giving you anything else. That works, too. - > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 6, 2009 Report Share Posted June 6, 2009 Shanon - There ya go!! The late great comedian Carlin had a whole routine about how we accumulate " stuff " , then have to buy a house to keep our stuff in, and how our stuff really controls us. It's bad enough when it's your own stuff that you actually want - to have Nada's unwanted stuff control you is just sick. So get the big black garbage bags and start rummaging - somebody out there is setting up their first apartment, and Nada's stuff will be a great find for them! - > > > > > she didnt want to buy me what I really wanted... I used to feel guilty for wanting to give away a gift she got me but I refused to wear/use it but just couldn't bear the thought of giving it away. I was paranoid that " what if she asked to see it or borrow it or asked where it was " . I am trying to get over that and purge the unneeded and unwanted things. > > > > > Shanon - SO RIGHT - if you feel so guilty you don't pass on, or throw out, the stuff you don't want, and it sits there, taking up space, collecting dust, and reminding you how much Nada disregards your wishes, how much her gift-giving is about controlling you - you become the miserable and bitter curator of Nada's Unwanted Gift Museum. Far, far better to just get rid of it. If she challenges you, you tell her that a gift is just that - it belongs to the recipient, no strings attached. Anything other than a treasured family heirloom may be re-gifted, sold, given to Goodwill, or burned in the back yard. She has the option of not giving you anything else. That works, too. - > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 7, 2009 Report Share Posted June 7, 2009 No, Jackie. She likes you the least because today is a day that ends in " day. " Because the sky is blue. Because the grass is green. Because despots are despotic and nadas are crazy. qwerty > > no I don't...she also " made " my oldest brother, who can do no wrong, and she > made my other brother and my 2 sisters who she likes better than me. I > figured I was the least liked one becaise I'm the only one who resembles my > fathers side of the family Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 7, 2009 Report Share Posted June 7, 2009 > > Do you ever wonder if part of the problem and why nothing you ever do is right or good enough is because she MADE you and she feels deep inside that she is fatally flawed and therefore everything she does or makes must also be beyond salvage?< Sort of. I think my nada sees me as an extension of or an appendage to herself. She hates herself, so she hates me. She sees my brother as more important somehow because he is male. I don't know why that is, but that appears to be her perception. She loves to make excuses for him, but she is also very un-supportive of him. I would agree that people who dislike themselves so intensely are often the harbingers of their own doom. They create the chaos in their own lives because they self-sabotage by choosing poor friends, making bad choices, ignoring their own needs and desires. People who are able to recognize their low self-esteem and do something to change it can often change their lives for the better. People like my nada, however, can't improve because they refuse to recognize their flaws. Back to your question, though... I do find, at least in my nada, a destructive tendency towards perfectionism and obsessive-compulsive behavior. I do believe this behavior is directly related to her inability to tolerate flaws, mistakes, differences, as well as her belief in some non-existent utopia where all her friends are perfect and her family is perfect (where perfect means obedient to her every whim and completely inseparable from her). > Or, conversely, do you feel you must be perfect and give her everything she wants and do everything she wants because she MADE you and everything she does and makes must also be perfect, or else it means there is also something wrong with her?< Thank the gods, I have stopped believing this. As a child, I thought there was something wrong with me. I thought I needed to continuously improve myself as a person, as a daughter. If I could just behave better and do more, she would love me. Clearly that never happened. You can't get love from a person who is incapable of giving. On the other hand, I think that the desire to improve myself has helped me a great deal. Without it, I may not have sought out therapy as a way to improve my life. > It just crossed my mind tonight because qwerty mentioned that she never bothers giving gifts anymore to her nada and I thought that maybe it adds another layer to things that at some point we were literally a part of them. < I'm not sure I understand. Do you mean that when a KO stops giving gifts to her nada, the nada's belief that the KO is flawed is reinforced? Just to clarify, I no longer give my nada gifts for the following reasons: 1 - I don't feel close to her in any way except biology. I like to give gifts to people with whom I feel a connection of some sort. I don't really feel that with my nada. 2 - I don't feel that she appreciates my gifts. Her apartment has several photos of my brother and one of me. She displays artwork he made for her when he was 3. Anything I wrote or drew she asked me to go through and take for myself, and the rest she threw away. 3 - I still feel hurt and minimized by the " gifts " she gives me. They're always clearly cheap, sometimes age inappropriate, often clearly discarded items she has bought for herself (appropriate to her frame and weight). Every time I get one of her ridiculous gifts I am reminded how little she cares about me. Because for her, money is love. 4 - She has substantially more money than I do and can afford to buy herself all manner of gifts which, indeed, she does. 5 - Given her track record in my life, and her complete lack of support for me, especially at difficult times when I needed emotional or financial support, it is absurd to me to reward her lack of mothering with daughterly expressions of love through gifts. Let her get gifts from the fake daughters she " adopts, " those women my age she befriends as obvious replacements for me. qwerty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 8, 2009 Report Share Posted June 8, 2009 thanks for the reminder !! I know it's not personal...but it's hard to not take it personally Jackie No, Jackie. She likes you the least because today is a day that ends in " day. " Because the sky is blue. Because the grass is green. Because despots are despotic and nadas are crazy. qwerty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 8, 2009 Report Share Posted June 8, 2009 This cracked me up - when I still spoke to her my mother would always bring up how she was shopping at " TJ's " (as though calling the store by its full name was way too formal for as familiar a patron as she - as though the store was her bff).... > > >I'm curious how do you all deal with gifts from your nadas - > > >this is whether you and NC or not. Let's say she gave you a > > >set of bath towels. This is something you might use every day, > > >on your very body. How would you feel about that? If they > > >were nice towels would you just use them and not care that they > > >came from her? My nada has always tended to give practical > > >household type gifts to me so I have items like that spread > > >throughout my home (my flatware is from her for example) and as > > >I am working through my feelings in therapy using these things > > >bother me. Yet to replace it all seems like a really silly > > >unnecessary expense. > > > > -- > > Katrina > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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