Re: Is it True or Safe to say....

[Guest guest]

Steve,

I can't diagnose you, but I can say that as KOs we definitely have learned some

less than profitable patterns of behavior (what choice did we have, really?).

And yes I think that some of those skills and abilities you mention make it

highly unlikley that a PD is present. As kids we learned what we saw; for better

or worse it became a part of us. Anyone who can look into themselves and then

beyond that seeking better ways is absolutely ahead of the game. At this point

you also have no healthy face to face interactions, so that may be part of your

current struggle as well.

Hang in there. You won't always be at this stuck place ... it's just

particularly hard right now.

Take care,

[Guest guest]

, you are wonderful !!

I feel so much better having read what you wrote - gee, wish you were my

sister..

Hey! I got it....You wanna be my surrogate mom ?? LOL

 

I just got in the door 3 mins ago from Getting Out and walking the dog - Ive

found a nice secluded place that we go, park bench's too...

It ALWAYS helps getting the hell out of here...even for an hour.

 

Nada is trying to enmesh with me - THAT'S the problem...and shes so subtle at

it..

its like the Slow Boiled Frog Syndrome....abuse at a low temp, that you just

don't know whats going on, before you know it,.....you cant escape - you get

boiled !

 

All my energy goes towards my escaping - even my thoughts..

I'm starting to get all the forces flowing...by contemplating my escape...

 

I'm Busting Out of BP Penitentiary

Subject: Re: Is it True or Safe to say....

To: WTOAdultChildren1

Date: Tuesday, June 2, 2009, 10:22 PM

Steve,

I can't diagnose you, but I can say that as KOs we definitely have learned some

less than profitable patterns of behavior (what choice did we have, really?).

And yes I think that some of those skills and abilities you mention make it

highly unlikley that a PD is present. As kids we learned what we saw; for better

or worse it became a part of us. Anyone who can look into themselves and then

beyond that seeking better ways is absolutely ahead of the game. At this point

you also have no healthy face to face interactions, so that may be part of your

current struggle as well.

Hang in there. You won't always be at this stuck place ... it's just

particularly hard right now.

Take care,

[Guest guest]

At 04:48 PM 06/02/2009 Ripped wrote:

>

>that if you have some insight within yourself, that you can

>admit wrongs...Have empathy..

>that you Do NOT have Narcissistic Personality Disorder....or

>BPD for that matter?

>I do wonder a lot lately....

>i cant help but to look at my own behavior and wonder.

I think that the fact that you're looking at your behavior and

asking is a pretty good indicator that you don't have BPD. I

know less about NPD, but it seems likely to be true of that as

well.

--

Katrina

[Guest guest]

Well Steve, I think I'm good with adoptive sister ... as the parent of 3 teens,

one of whom is bpd, I'm good in the mom dept, surrogate or otherwise! But

thanks - I'm honored by your request.

= )

Glad you got out for a bit today. It can do wonders for the psyche, huh?

Keep pressing toward the mark, Friend -

[Guest guest]

Steve,

 

I don't quite think it is.  I think pds also have occasional moments when they

have the internal resources to honestly admit mistakes and wrong-doing.  I

think it is mostly safe to say that if you can do those things, you're not bpd

or npd because it happens so rarely, but I used to have a bpd friend and she

would sometimes talk with what sounded like real regret about what she had done

to others in the past and did seem to put some thought into how to not make the

same mistakes.  Her solutions were not always that great, but she did seem to

not want to hurt other people ( " I can't seem to maintain fidelity, so I'll just

be upfront and have only open relationships... " was one crack-brained solution).

 

I think the bottom line is that whatever your issues are that need to be worked

out, you are a good person with a number of good qualities.  You basically want

to connect to others, want to do well, and want to benefit the world you live

in.  I think everyone has a place in the world, and everyone needs to feel that

they belong here and have something to offer.  This is true even for people

with very significant handicaps in life--whether mental, psychological, or

physical.  It's the only way to contribute to others--is to feel that you can,

that you are meant to, and that you have a right to try.

 

To put it another way, consider your mother.  She tortures you on pretty much a

daily basis.  It's terrible what she does.

 

But what if she genuinely wanted to get better?  What if she genuinely put in

hard emotional work every day trying to get better?  It might not make the

abuse easier to take (and it shouldn't), but I think it would change your level

of respect for her.

 

I think you genuinely want to get better.  This means that, whatever your flaws

and old wounds, you will eventually be able to overcome them and what will be

left will be your strengths and your good qualities.  They haven't always shown

through in the past, but they can in the future.

 

Best,

Ashana

Subject: Is it True or Safe to say....

To: " WTO Adult Children " <WTOAdultChildren1 >

Date: Tuesday, 2 June, 2009, 1:48 PM

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

that if you have some insight within yourself, that you can admit wrongs...Have

empathy..

that you Do NOT have Narcissistic Personality Disorder.... or BPD for that

matter?

I do wonder a lot lately....

i cant help but to look at my own behavior and wonder.

there have been times when i acted like a child and was so selfish...acting

passive aggressive also..

im ashamed of those times...it seemed like my mother and father were living in

my skin at those times.

hmm..could be cuz i was reacting to a bp partner - dont know.

i DO know that i share in the problems of the relationship. ..

just wish i didnt have to react like i did many times.

 

i hope i have another opportunity for a relationship - it can get pretty lonley.

thankful i have my dog  :-)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

I had seen a therapist once and she told me I do NOT have bpd but could have

similarities of my nada's traits simply because I was raised by her. I'm the

same way as you in that I:

- used to wonder a lot if I had BPD

- ashamed of the times I acted like a child as well

- I wish I didn't react like I did to situations too but am working on trying

to recognize them ahead of time so I can correct myself and do it the right way

)

Shanon

> that if you have some insight within yourself, that you can admit

wrongs...Have empathy..

> that you Do NOT have Narcissistic Personality Disorder....or BPD for that

matter?

> I do wonder a lot lately....

> i cant help but to look at my own behavior and wonder.

> there have been times when i acted like a child and was so selfish...acting

passive aggressive also..

> im ashamed of those times...it seemed like my mother and father were living in

my skin at those times.

> hmm..could be cuz i was reacting to a bp partner - dont know.

> i DO know that i share in the problems of the relationship...

> just wish i didnt have to react like i did many times.

>  

> i hope i have another opportunity for a relationship - it can get pretty

lonley.

> thankful i have my dog  :-)

>  

>  

>  

>  

>  

>  

>  

>  

>  

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

My nada occasionally admits to being upset with the consequences

of what she does. Sometimes she even admits that not having done

things would have been better. Apart from really small things,

she can't seem to admit that she was wrong for having done them

though. She always somehow manages to twist the story in her

mind so that it is someone else's fault that she did what she

did or that the consequences were what they were. There seems to

be a disconnect in her mind between her actions and any

responsibility for the consequences of her actions. If you talk

to her about these things right after they happen, you can

almost see her rewriting history as she talks about them so as

to be able to place the blame somewhere else. By the time a few

days have passed, she's usually gotten the new version set in

her mind.

At 11:10 PM 06/02/2009 W. A. Max wrote:

>I don't quite think it is. I think pds also have occasional

>moments when they have the internal resources to honestly admit

>mistakes and wrong-doing. I think it is mostly safe to say

>that if you can do those things, you're not bpd or npd because

>it happens so rarely, but I used to have a bpd friend and she

>would sometimes talk with what sounded like real regret about

>what she had done to others in the past and did seem to put

>some thought into how to not make the same mistakes. Her

>solutions were not always that great, but she did seem to not

>want to hurt other people ( " I can't seem to maintain fidelity,

>so I'll just be upfront and have only open relationships... "

>was one crack-brained solution).

>Â

>I think the bottom line is that whatever your issues are that

>need to be worked out, you are a good person with a number of

>good qualities. You basically want to connect to others, want

>to do well, and want to benefit the world you live in. I

>think everyone has a place in the world, and everyone needs to

>feel that they belong here and have something to offer. This

>is true even for people with very significant handicaps in

>life--whether mental, psychological, or physical. It's the

>only way to contribute to others--is to feel that you can, that

>you are meant to, and that you have a right to try.

>Â

>To put it another way, consider your mother. She tortures you

>on pretty much a daily basis. It's terrible what she does.

>Â

>But what if she genuinely wanted to get better? What if she

>genuinely put in hard emotional work every day trying to get

>better? It might not make the abuse easier to take (and it

>shouldn't), but I think it would change your level of respect

>for her.

>Â

>I think you genuinely want to get better. This means that,

>whatever your flaws and old wounds, you will eventually be able

>to overcome them and what will be left will be your strengths

>and your good qualities. They haven't always shown through in

>the past, but they can in the future.

--

Katrina

[Guest guest]

Steve, you sound like me in therapy yesterday a bit. My therapist

says they just don't have the insight. And that we can in fact pick

up on some of their behaviors because their behaviors are seen in

nearly all people. That's just it, the behaviors they exhibit are

human behaviors, they just exhibit them to more extent.

Also, keep in mind that BPD is a PD, but it developed as a way to

cope. Their coping techniques are so ingrained they have become part

of their personalities. Everyone copes differently. Some people

develop BPD, others PTSD, etc.

But my therapist telling me that -- about how their behaviors are

behaviors exhibited by normal humans -- wow, that really hit me hard &

in a good way.

Justi

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> that if you have some insight within yourself, that you can admit

> wrongs...Have empathy..

> that you Do NOT have Narcissistic Personality Disorder....or BPD for that

> matter?

> I do wonder a lot lately....

> i cant help but to look at my own behavior and wonder.

> there have been times when i acted like a child and was so selfish...acting

> passive aggressive also..

> im ashamed of those times...it seemed like my mother and father were living

> in my skin at those times.

> hmm..could be cuz i was reacting to a bp partner - dont know.

> i DO know that i share in the problems of the relationship...

> just wish i didnt have to react like i did many times.

>

> i hope i have another opportunity for a relationship - it can get pretty

> lonley.

> thankful i have my dog  :-)

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks Justi for your help ;-)

It helps a bunch - Im ok.

strange waking this morning - i had a very disturbing dream last night, very

real..

gives me the willies ...hmm...(i always wondered about that

expression...Willies..........

What ARE the 'willies' anyway - sounds hinky to say that)

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> that if you have some insight within yourself, that you can admit

> wrongs...Have empathy..

> that you Do NOT have Narcissistic Personality Disorder....or BPD for that

> matter?

> I do wonder a lot lately....

> i cant help but to look at my own behavior and wonder.

> there have been times when i acted like a child and was so selfish...acting

> passive aggressive also..

> im ashamed of those times...it seemed like my mother and father were living

> in my skin at those times.

> hmm..could be cuz i was reacting to a bp partner - dont know.

> i DO know that i share in the problems of the relationship...

> just wish i didnt have to react like i did many times.

>

> i hope i have another opportunity for a relationship - it can get pretty

> lonley.

> thankful i have my dog  :-)

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I agree with you, Katrina. My nada only apologizes when denying won't work. I

don't think that my nada has the ability to genuinely care that what she does

can have a horrible, hurtful effect on another person, she is only concerned

about what happens to herself.

My nada is able to mimic behaviors that sound like she is remorseful, but the

truth is that she is sad and upset only because she herself is in danger of

receiving some unpleasant consequence. Her sobbing apologies are always couched

in terms like, " I'm sorry, please don't be mad at me, " meaning: " I need you to

forgive me and comfort me so I will feel better. " She never says anything even

close to: " What I did to you was so awful and unfair; you must be in such pain. "

I think my nada is a true " Cluster B " : the part of her brain that is supposed to

register that other people have feelings is missing. She understands

intellectually that she is *supposed* to perform in certain ways that will get

her positive attention and companionship, but underneath I believe that she

simply feels entitled to these things.

That's why I'm kind of fed up with the " trying to be better " efforts.

I don't believe they are genuine.

-Annie

> >I don't quite think it is. I think pds also have occasional

> >moments when they have the internal resources to honestly admit

> >mistakes and wrong-doing. I think it is mostly safe to say

> >that if you can do those things, you're not bpd or npd because

> >it happens so rarely, but I used to have a bpd friend and she

> >would sometimes talk with what sounded like real regret about

> >what she had done to others in the past and did seem to put

> >some thought into how to not make the same mistakes. Her

> >solutions were not always that great, but she did seem to not

> >want to hurt other people ( " I can't seem to maintain fidelity,

> >so I'll just be upfront and have only open relationships... "

> >was one crack-brained solution).

> >Â

> >I think the bottom line is that whatever your issues are that

> >need to be worked out, you are a good person with a number of

> >good qualities. You basically want to connect to others, want

> >to do well, and want to benefit the world you live in. I

> >think everyone has a place in the world, and everyone needs to

> >feel that they belong here and have something to offer. This

> >is true even for people with very significant handicaps in

> >life--whether mental, psychological, or physical. It's the

> >only way to contribute to others--is to feel that you can, that

> >you are meant to, and that you have a right to try.

> >Â

> >To put it another way, consider your mother. She tortures you

> >on pretty much a daily basis. It's terrible what she does.

> >Â

> >But what if she genuinely wanted to get better? What if she

> >genuinely put in hard emotional work every day trying to get

> >better? It might not make the abuse easier to take (and it

> >shouldn't), but I think it would change your level of respect

> >for her.

> >Â

> >I think you genuinely want to get better. This means that,

> >whatever your flaws and old wounds, you will eventually be able

> >to overcome them and what will be left will be your strengths

> >and your good qualities. They haven't always shown through in

> >the past, but they can in the future.

>

> --

> Katrina

>

[Guest guest]

whether denying works or not, thats all my nada will do...she NEVER

apologizes..ever !! Like once I was getting punished for something I did not

do..she didn't believe me, and was hitting me with the wooden spoon. My

sister couldn't take it, and confessed to doing the bad deed, and nade told

me that spanking was for something I got away with, then...man, your nada

and mine must be related !!

Jackie

I agree with you, Katrina. My nada only apologizes when denying won't work.

I don't think that my nada has the ability to genuinely care that what she

does can have a horrible, hurtful effect on another person, she is only

concerned about what happens to herself.

My nada is able to mimic behaviors that sound like she is remorseful, but

the truth is that she is sad and upset only because she herself is in danger

of receiving some unpleasant consequence. Her sobbing apologies are always

couched in terms like, " I'm sorry, please don't be mad at me, " meaning: " I

need you to forgive me and comfort me so I will feel better. " She never

says anything even close to: " What I did to you was so awful and unfair; you

must be in such pain. "

I think my nada is a true " Cluster B " : the part of her brain that is

supposed to register that other people have feelings is missing. She

understands intellectually that she is *supposed* to perform in certain ways

that will get her positive attention and companionship, but underneath I

believe that she simply feels entitled to these things.

That's why I'm kind of fed up with the " trying to be better " efforts.

I don't believe they are genuine.

-Annie

> >I don't quite think it is. I think pds also have occasional

> >moments when they have the internal resources to honestly admit

> >mistakes and wrong-doing. I think it is mostly safe to say

> >that if you can do those things, you're not bpd or npd because

> >it happens so rarely, but I used to have a bpd friend and she

> >would sometimes talk with what sounded like real regret about

> >what she had done to others in the past and did seem to put

> >some thought into how to not make the same mistakes. Her

> >solutions were not always that great, but she did seem to not

> >want to hurt other people ( " I can't seem to maintain fidelity,

> >so I'll just be upfront and have only open relationships... "

> >was one crack-brained solution).

> >Â

> >I think the bottom line is that whatever your issues are that

> >need to be worked out, you are a good person with a number of

> >good qualities. You basically want to connect to others, want

> >to do well, and want to benefit the world you live in. I

> >think everyone has a place in the world, and everyone needs to

> >feel that they belong here and have something to offer. This

> >is true even for people with very significant handicaps in

> >life--whether mental, psychological, or physical. It's the

> >only way to contribute to others--is to feel that you can, that

> >you are meant to, and that you have a right to try.

> >Â

> >To put it another way, consider your mother. She tortures you

> >on pretty much a daily basis. It's terrible what she does.

> >Â

> >But what if she genuinely wanted to get better? What if she

> >genuinely put in hard emotional work every day trying to get

> >better? It might not make the abuse easier to take (and it

> >shouldn't), but I think it would change your level of respect

> >for her.

> >Â

> >I think you genuinely want to get better. This means that,

> >whatever your flaws and old wounds, you will eventually be able

> >to overcome them and what will be left will be your strengths

> >and your good qualities. They haven't always shown through in

> >the past, but they can in the future.

>

> --

> Katrina

>

------------------------------------

Problems? Ask our friendly List Manager for help at

@.... SEND HER ANY POSTS THAT CONCERN YOU; DO NOT Respond ON

THE GROUP.

To order the KO bible " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " call 888-35-SHELL

() for your copy. We also refer to " Understanding the Borderline

Mother " (Lawson) and " Surviving the Borderline Parent, " (Roth) which you can

find at any bookstore. Welcome to the WTO community!

From Randi Kreger, Owner BPDCentral, WTO Online Community and author SWOE

and the SWOE Workbook.

[Guest guest]

Annier, Jackie - My nada is the same - She will sit on the couch and cry like a

little child - Sad thing is, when I was younger, it used to work on me..I use to

feel so badly...I would be first to apologize or whatever..and in an Instant,

The TEARS WERE GONE...

I was horrified to see that her tears were just faked to me feel bad - She cried

wolf..

Broke my Trust (Well, she had broke my trustr many many ytimes before that)

So, when she cries and does her routine, (sorry if this sounds cruel) But I dont

give a Rats A - -  !

She's only got herself to blame for chasing me & my brother away - To be

emotionally manipulated over and over...I mean...Shove it  - HOW DARE YOU !!

Subject: Re: Re: Is it True or Safe to say....

To: WTOAdultChildren1

Date: Wednesday, June 3, 2009, 8:41 PM

whether denying works or not, thats all my nada will do...she NEVER

apologizes.. ever !! Like once I was getting punished for something I did not

do..she didn't believe me, and was hitting me with the wooden spoon. My

sister couldn't take it, and confessed to doing the bad deed, and nade told

me that spanking was for something I got away with, then...man, your nada

and mine must be related !!

Jackie

I agree with you, Katrina. My nada only apologizes when denying won't work.

I don't think that my nada has the ability to genuinely care that what she

does can have a horrible, hurtful effect on another person, she is only

concerned about what happens to herself.

My nada is able to mimic behaviors that sound like she is remorseful, but

the truth is that she is sad and upset only because she herself is in danger

of receiving some unpleasant consequence. Her sobbing apologies are always

couched in terms like, " I'm sorry, please don't be mad at me, " meaning: " I

need you to forgive me and comfort me so I will feel better. " She never

says anything even close to: " What I did to you was so awful and unfair; you

must be in such pain. "

I think my nada is a true " Cluster B " : the part of her brain that is

supposed to register that other people have feelings is missing. She

understands intellectually that she is *supposed* to perform in certain ways

that will get her positive attention and companionship, but underneath I

believe that she simply feels entitled to these things.

That's why I'm kind of fed up with the " trying to be better " efforts.

I don't believe they are genuine.

-Annie

> >I don't quite think it is. I think pds also have occasional

> >moments when they have the internal resources to honestly admit

> >mistakes and wrong-doing. I think it is mostly safe to say

> >that if you can do those things, you're not bpd or npd because

> >it happens so rarely, but I used to have a bpd friend and she

> >would sometimes talk with what sounded like real regret about

> >what she had done to others in the past and did seem to put

> >some thought into how to not make the same mistakes. Her

> >solutions were not always that great, but she did seem to not

> >want to hurt other people ( " I can't seem to maintain fidelity,

> >so I'll just be upfront and have only open relationships. .. "

> >was one crack-brained solution).

> >Â

> >I think the bottom line is that whatever your issues are that

> >need to be worked out, you are a good person with a number of

> >good qualities. You basically want to connect to others, want

> >to do well, and want to benefit the world you live in. I

> >think everyone has a place in the world, and everyone needs to

> >feel that they belong here and have something to offer. This

> >is true even for people with very significant handicaps in

> >life--whether mental, psychological, or physical. It's the

> >only way to contribute to others--is to feel that you can, that

> >you are meant to, and that you have a right to try.

> >Â

> >To put it another way, consider your mother. She tortures you

> >on pretty much a daily basis. It's terrible what she does.

> >Â

> >But what if she genuinely wanted to get better? What if she

> >genuinely put in hard emotional work every day trying to get

> >better? It might not make the abuse easier to take (and it

> >shouldn't), but I think it would change your level of respect

> >for her.

> >Â

> >I think you genuinely want to get better. This means that,

> >whatever your flaws and old wounds, you will eventually be able

> >to overcome them and what will be left will be your strengths

> >and your good qualities. They haven't always shown through in

> >the past, but they can in the future.

>

> --

> Katrina

>

------------ --------- --------- ------

Problems? Ask our friendly List Manager for help at

BPDCentral (DOT) com. SEND HER ANY POSTS THAT CONCERN YOU; DO NOT Respond ON

THE GROUP.

To order the KO bible " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " call 888-35-SHELL

() for your copy. We also refer to " Understanding the Borderline

Mother " (Lawson) and " Surviving the Borderline Parent, " (Roth) which you can

find at any bookstore. Welcome to the WTO community!

From Randi Kreger, Owner BPDCentral, WTO Online Community and author SWOE

and the SWOE Workbook.

[Guest guest]

Sounds just like my nada, word for word.

> >I don't quite think it is. I think pds also have occasional

> >moments when they have the internal resources to honestly admit

> >mistakes and wrong-doing. I think it is mostly safe to say

> >that if you can do those things, you're not bpd or npd because

> >it happens so rarely, but I used to have a bpd friend and she

> >would sometimes talk with what sounded like real regret about

> >what she had done to others in the past and did seem to put

> >some thought into how to not make the same mistakes. Her

> >solutions were not always that great, but she did seem to not

> >want to hurt other people ( " I can't seem to maintain fidelity,

> >so I'll just be upfront and have only open relationships... "

> >was one crack-brained solution).

> >Â

> >I think the bottom line is that whatever your issues are that

> >need to be worked out, you are a good person with a number of

> >good qualities. You basically want to connect to others, want

> >to do well, and want to benefit the world you live in. I

> >think everyone has a place in the world, and everyone needs to

> >feel that they belong here and have something to offer. This

> >is true even for people with very significant handicaps in

> >life--whether mental, psychological, or physical. It's the

> >only way to contribute to others--is to feel that you can, that

> >you are meant to, and that you have a right to try.

> >Â

> >To put it another way, consider your mother. She tortures you

> >on pretty much a daily basis. It's terrible what she does.

> >Â

> >But what if she genuinely wanted to get better? What if she

> >genuinely put in hard emotional work every day trying to get

> >better? It might not make the abuse easier to take (and it

> >shouldn't), but I think it would change your level of respect

> >for her.

> >Â

> >I think you genuinely want to get better. This means that,

> >whatever your flaws and old wounds, you will eventually be able

> >to overcome them and what will be left will be your strengths

> >and your good qualities. They haven't always shown through in

> >the past, but they can in the future.

>

> --

> Katrina

>

[Guest guest]

I totally agree, Steve !! My nada has used tears to try an manipulate me

into doing what she wanted...doesn't work !! I get real irritated when she

crys...just like she always did when I cried...only I was crying for a real

reason, not fake like her..

Jackie

Annier, Jackie - My nada is the same - She will sit on the couch and cry

like a little child - Sad thing is, when I was younger, it used to work on

me..I use to feel so badly...I would be first to apologize or whatever..and

in an Instant, The TEARS WERE GONE...

I was horrified to see that her tears were just faked to me feel bad - She

cried wolf..

Broke my Trust (Well, she had broke my trustr many many ytimes before that)

So, when she cries and does her routine, (sorry if this sounds cruel) But I

dont give a Rats A - - !

She's only got herself to blame for chasing me & my brother away - To be

emotionally manipulated over and over...I mean...Shove it - HOW DARE YOU !!

[Guest guest]

I don't know what it is but when my nada cries it makes me sick. I cannot STAND

the sight and sound of her crying. Yuck. It pisses me off and irritates me...

>

> I totally agree, Steve !! My nada has used tears to try an manipulate me

> into doing what she wanted...doesn't work !! I get real irritated when she

> crys...just like she always did when I cried...only I was crying for a real

> reason, not fake like her..

>

> Jackie

>

>

> Annier, Jackie - My nada is the same - She will sit on the couch and cry

> like a little child - Sad thing is, when I was younger, it used to work on

> me..I use to feel so badly...I would be first to apologize or whatever..and

> in an Instant, The TEARS WERE GONE...

> I was horrified to see that her tears were just faked to me feel bad - She

> cried wolf..

> Broke my Trust (Well, she had broke my trustr many many ytimes before that)

> So, when she cries and does her routine, (sorry if this sounds cruel) But I

> dont give a Rats A - - !

> She's only got herself to blame for chasing me & my brother away - To be

> emotionally manipulated over and over...I mean...Shove it - HOW DARE YOU !!

>

[Guest guest]

Thinking of nada crying gives me the hives...she'd start out sniffling..then if

nobody ran to her she'd get a little louder and sort of sob...then if nobody ran

to her she'd start to wail this mournful sound as if she was dying. It was

usually my job to then go comfort her. She'd stop sobbing and sniff a lot. Blow

her nose a few times and then it would all be over. I can still see her sitting

on the edge of her bed sobbing...ugh..calgon take me away.

Abby

>

> I totally agree, Steve !! My nada has used tears to try an manipulate me

> into doing what she wanted...doesn't work !! I get real irritated when she

> crys...just like she always did when I cried...only I was crying for a real

> reason, not fake like her..

>

> Jackie

>

>

> Annier, Jackie - My nada is the same - She will sit on the couch and cry

> like a little child - Sad thing is, when I was younger, it used to work on

> me..I use to feel so badly...I would be first to apologize or whatever..and

> in an Instant, The TEARS WERE GONE...

> I was horrified to see that her tears were just faked to me feel bad - She

> cried wolf..

> Broke my Trust (Well, she had broke my trustr many many ytimes before that)

> So, when she cries and does her routine, (sorry if this sounds cruel) But I

> dont give a Rats A - - !

> She's only got herself to blame for chasing me & my brother away - To be

> emotionally manipulated over and over...I mean...Shove it - HOW DARE YOU !!

>

[Guest guest]

Oh YEAH! When I would walk in on my Nada (after the big build up of untended to

emotional puking) she would usually have a gun in her mouth, near her head or

just in her lap. Sometimes her legs would be all bloody from where she dug

herself up with her fingernails. Seriously, knowing the damage seeing that

would do to a child or an adult child would be enough to keep a sane person from

at least hiding the gun when you heard footsteps approaching...I always

wondered if she put the gun up to herself when I turned the doornob (lord knows

here elbow would hurt holding it there for a long time and we wouldn't want that

, would we) for dramatic " I'm really REALLY hurting/serious this time so you

better #@%@#$ pay attention to MEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE " impact.

BTW - it was a bloody legs incident enhanced by suicidal ramblings that the Dr's

witnessed in an Dr's room that landed me with my therapist.

AMEN!!!

Lynnette

> >

> > I totally agree, Steve !! My nada has used tears to try an manipulate me

> > into doing what she wanted...doesn't work !! I get real irritated when she

> > crys...just like she always did when I cried...only I was crying for a real

> > reason, not fake like her..

> >

> > Jackie

> >

> >

> > Annier, Jackie - My nada is the same - She will sit on the couch and cry

> > like a little child - Sad thing is, when I was younger, it used to work on

> > me..I use to feel so badly...I would be first to apologize or whatever..and

> > in an Instant, The TEARS WERE GONE...

> > I was horrified to see that her tears were just faked to me feel bad - She

> > cried wolf..

> > Broke my Trust (Well, she had broke my trustr many many ytimes before that)

> > So, when she cries and does her routine, (sorry if this sounds cruel) But I

> > dont give a Rats A - - !

> > She's only got herself to blame for chasing me & my brother away - To be

> > emotionally manipulated over and over...I mean...Shove it - HOW DARE YOU !!

> >

>

[Guest guest]

I think I get nervous (for a better more accurate discription)..

I get Nervous and ANXIOUS cause I'm EXPECTED TO FEEL SOMETHING...!!

I'M EXPECTED TO REACT....

My first 'Normal' response WOULD CERTAINLY BE to inquire whats wrong and to

console...

But (and this is a Big BUT) Because its HER and  K N O W I N G  its faked and

being done to manipulated me, causes me great discomfort, conflict..and ANGER

for the Audacity!

Steve

Subject: Re: Is it True or Safe to say....

To: WTOAdultChildren1

Date: Thursday, June 4, 2009, 10:00 PM

Thinking of nada crying gives me the hives...she' d start out sniffling..then if

nobody ran to her she'd get a little louder and sort of sob...then if nobody ran

to her she'd start to wail this mournful sound as if she was dying. It was

usually my job to then go comfort her. She'd stop sobbing and sniff a lot. Blow

her nose a few times and then it would all be over. I can still see her sitting

on the edge of her bed sobbing...ugh. .calgon take me away.

Abby

>

> I totally agree, Steve !! My nada has used tears to try an manipulate me

> into doing what she wanted...doesn' t work !! I get real irritated when she

> crys...just like she always did when I cried...only I was crying for a real

> reason, not fake like her..

>

> Jackie

>

>

> Annier, Jackie - My nada is the same - She will sit on the couch and cry

> like a little child - Sad thing is, when I was younger, it used to work on

> me..I use to feel so badly...I would be first to apologize or whatever..and

> in an Instant, The TEARS WERE GONE...

> I was horrified to see that her tears were just faked to me feel bad - She

> cried wolf..

> Broke my Trust (Well, she had broke my trustr many many ytimes before that)

> So, when she cries and does her routine, (sorry if this sounds cruel) But I

> dont give a Rats A - - !

> She's only got herself to blame for chasing me & my brother away - To be

> emotionally manipulated over and over...I mean...Shove it - HOW DARE YOU !!

>

[Guest guest]

I think the anger comes from the fact you know you're being manipulated and a

sense of " oh no, here it comes again.. "

> >

> > I totally agree, Steve !! My nada has used tears to try an manipulate me

> > into doing what she wanted...doesn' t work !! I get real irritated when she

> > crys...just like she always did when I cried...only I was crying for a real

> > reason, not fake like her..

> >

> > Jackie

> >

> >

> > Annier, Jackie - My nada is the same - She will sit on the couch and cry

> > like a little child - Sad thing is, when I was younger, it used to work on

> > me..I use to feel so badly...I would be first to apologize or whatever..and

> > in an Instant, The TEARS WERE GONE...

> > I was horrified to see that her tears were just faked to me feel bad - She

> > cried wolf..

> > Broke my Trust (Well, she had broke my trustr many many ytimes before that)

> > So, when she cries and does her routine, (sorry if this sounds cruel) But I

> > dont give a Rats A - - !

> > She's only got herself to blame for chasing me & my brother away - To be

> > emotionally manipulated over and over...I mean...Shove it - HOW DARE YOU !!

> >

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

wow, Lynnette, I don't know what I'd do in those situations...my nada was

never suicidal..she'd threaten it, but that was more for the drama

effect...she'd threaten to kill US, though, and tried a couple of times..

Jackie

Oh YEAH! When I would walk in on my Nada (after the big build up of

untended to emotional puking) she would usually have a gun in her mouth,

near her head or just in her lap. Sometimes her legs would be all bloody

from where she dug herself up with her fingernails. Seriously, knowing the

damage seeing that would do to a child or an adult child would be enough to

keep a sane person from at least hiding the gun when you heard footsteps

approaching...I always wondered if she put the gun up to herself when I

turned the doornob (lord knows here elbow would hurt holding it there for a

long time and we wouldn't want that , would we) for dramatic " I'm really

REALLY hurting/serious this time so you better #@%@#$ pay attention to

MEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE " impact.

BTW - it was a bloody legs incident enhanced by suicidal ramblings that the

Dr's witnessed in an Dr's room that landed me with my therapist.

AMEN!!!

Lynnette

[Guest guest]

oh, of COURSE !! they do it for attention !! yup, you would be caring and

concerned if it was anyone else..but knowing who it is and what she's like,

you know better !

Jackie

I think I get nervous (for a better more accurate discription)..

I get Nervous and ANXIOUS cause I'm EXPECTED TO FEEL SOMETHING...!!

I'M EXPECTED TO REACT....

My first 'Normal' response WOULD CERTAINLY BE to inquire whats wrong and to

console...

But (and this is a Big BUT) Because its HER and K N O W I N G its faked and

being done to manipulated me, causes me great discomfort, conflict..and

ANGER for the Audacity!

Steve

[Guest guest]

Hi there.

I just started reading this book recommended to me by Ashana on this list. The

book is The Alcoholic Family, and the reason she recommended it to me is that it

takes what is called a " family systems approach " to analyzing people with

alcoholism. In other words, everyone in the family suffers from alcoholism.

The entire family is alcoholic. It is a really interesting book. Ashana

recommended it to me, I think, because there isn't a comparable book for the BPD

family, but her point was that the same things go on in a family with a BP:

everyone has BPD. The family is ruled by BPD and can't function like a normal

family. The whole family system and organization is run by the

disease/illness. I understand that Randi is soon coming out with a new book

that talks about BPD in terms of family systems, and I can't wait to see that,

but I went ahead and read this book because Ashana wrote on here that it is

really comparable to our experiences. I am getting a lot from the book.

I thought of you, becuase I remember feeling like you are. I felt frustrated,

like, when am I going to get BPD out from under my skin??? But, be assured,

it's not you, it's the family system. It's not you, but yes, the BPD symptoms

are so to speak " under your skin " because people in a BP family system are all

enmeshed with each other. Part of the process of healing is reclaiming your

individuality. That is why for some of us on here being no contact (NC) has

really helped to differentiate the self from the family system.

Here is a quote from The Alcoholic Family book that made me think of you and

your post. I think it applies to BPD FOOS as well. Page 45: " The behavior of

family members, when they are in the context of their family, is shaped and

constrained by simultaneous behaviors of all other members of the family, singly

and in combination. " Actually, this is about family systems in general, so it

applies to all families.

The book also talks about how in alcoholic family systems, the growth of family

members is stunted because the family system usually gets stuck at one point in

time, and there is no room for development and change. Obviously, development

and change are necessary for humans to have healthy lives. In alcoholic (and BP

families,presumably), the emphasis is on the disease/illness, so all other

functions of the family system (such as supporting the growth and development of

other members of the family system) are not attended to. similarly, growth and

change are really threatening to the family system, since the disease needs

things to stay as they are and not change, in an alcoholic (and presumably BPD)

family system.

Additionally, there is the issue of enmeshment. So, there are a lot of reasons

why many of us on this list serve have found RC and/or NC to be necessary steps

in our healing paths. Everyone has their own path, of course. For a time, I

found it brought many breakthroughs to live with the FOO while being in therapy,

because I gained a lot insight into what was really going on.

But, in terms of blaming or hating yourself, I don't think you need to. Your

family system did not let you grow, and they need to you to be unhealthy and not

grow. Any steps you take toward growth are steps towards yourself and

threatening to them, because the system needs you to support the

disease/illness.

This book is fascinating, and I thought that might help you. I certainly found

for a long time, the knowledge that BP people can't reflect on their own

behavior to be a major item distinguishing me from the BP. I do know it was

safe and true for me to say that.

best wishes

Walkingto happiness

>

>  

>  

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>  

>  

>  

>  

>  

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>  

> that if you have some insight within yourself, that you can admit

wrongs...Have empathy..

> that you Do NOT have Narcissistic Personality Disorder....or BPD for that

matter?

> I do wonder a lot lately....

> i cant help but to look at my own behavior and wonder.

> there have been times when i acted like a child and was so selfish...acting

passive aggressive also..

> im ashamed of those times...it seemed like my mother and father were living in

my skin at those times.

> hmm..could be cuz i was reacting to a bp partner - dont know.

> i DO know that i share in the problems of the relationship...

> just wish i didnt have to react like i did many times.

>  

> i hope i have another opportunity for a relationship - it can get pretty

lonley.

> thankful i have my dog  :-)

>  

>  

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>

[Guest guest]

This post is not directed at anyone in particular, it is just my thoughts on

alcoholic families. The " you " is a generic " you " and not meant to be an attack

on anyone or their posts. )

Coming from an alcoholic family, my experience is that the main issue is secrecy

and pretending that everything is okay. I don't think it's about emeshment as

such. Everyone knows what is going on inside the home, once they get past the

denial, but nobody talks about it. It's the secrecy and denial that destroys the

family unit. There is mistrust, broken promises, anger, sadness and pleading for

the drinking to stop. Children are parentified at an early age and witness

things they should never have to witness. Just as with the BP, you never know

what you're going to get, but it is predictable that things will not go well on

holidays, birthdays or during stressful times. Everyone has a role to play. But,

then in all families, everyone has a role to play, whether or not the family is

disfunctional.

Most alcoholics are not bums living on the street who cannot hold down a job.

Most are functioning alcoholics. They don't beat their kids or their wives. They

work, have families, have friends and look no different from anyone else. The

alcoholic in my life was a well-educated professional. He was smart, well-liked

and a kind hearted person. To meet him, you'd never know he drank more than

socially. His drinking was his way of coping. I look at him entirely different

that I do my mother. I understand his pain and I understand why he drank. And, I

have forgiven him for it and what I went through as a child because of it,

probably because we battle the same demons....but for the grace of God go I, so

to speak.

Sorry, but this is a hot one for me. I am a KO and an ACOA (adult child of an

alcoholic). Just as people cannot understand what it is like to be the child of

a BP, they also cannot understand what it is like to be the child of an

alcoholic unless they have lived it. You can read all the books in the world and

sympathize, but it not the same. Unless you were the child hiding in the closet

because you were frightened, witnessed a parent crawling on the floor drunk or

passed out and thought he was dead, smelled the booze when you kissed goodnight

and tucked in, or poured the booze down the sink hoping the drinking would stop,

you have no idea of what it was like.

Abby

> >

> >  

> >  

> >  

> >  

> >  

> >  

> >  

> >  

> >  

> >  

> >  

> >  

> >  

> > that if you have some insight within yourself, that you can admit

wrongs...Have empathy..

> > that you Do NOT have Narcissistic Personality Disorder....or BPD for that

matter?

> > I do wonder a lot lately....

> > i cant help but to look at my own behavior and wonder.

> > there have been times when i acted like a child and was so selfish...acting

passive aggressive also..

> > im ashamed of those times...it seemed like my mother and father were living

in my skin at those times.

> > hmm..could be cuz i was reacting to a bp partner - dont know.

> > i DO know that i share in the problems of the relationship...

> > just wish i didnt have to react like i did many times.

> >  

> > i hope i have another opportunity for a relationship - it can get pretty

lonley.

> > thankful i have my dog  :-)

> >  

> >  

> >  

> >  

> >  

> >  

> >  

> >  

> >  

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >